What Love is This?

[AlwaysLoved]

That's silly. Coyness is never the answer. You exhibit the same unethical behavior. Calvinism is a cult and like other cults they shut their minds down, ban those who speak plainly against them why they are a cult. I would be happy to respond to anything you say. You won't get banned here for discussing like you do on Calvinist sites. You can even claim someone is unsaved and you don't get banned for that either. Their position is so untenable all they can do is like John Calvin kill the Arminians or in this day and age, ban them from the internet. James White definitely is unsaved and in all probability going to Hell, because he will likely never give his life to Christ. He worships a false Christ. Your conscience can't see this because likewise I am sure it has not been quickened by the Holy Spirit, but I pray one day you will. You're underestimating what a bad man he is: he is "condemned already" (John 3.18) for refusing God's way of salvation for another. There's lots of a good videos on the internet that show James White is not born-again.

[David Hewitt]

That's silly. Coyness is never the answer.

Well, the intent was never to be coy or cute. So my apologies if it came across that way.

You exhibit the same unethical behavior.

Here you lost me: What Scriptural principle or command did I violate? I missed it.

Calvinism is a cult and like other cults they shut their minds down, ban those who speak plainly against them why they are a cult.

Well, if Calvinism were really what you make it out to be, then I would agree with you. However, whether you realize it or not, you really do not understand what the so-called 5 points of Calvinism really entail. Being able to quote the doctrines is only a start of course; fleshing them out properly is another thing all together. For example, the Doctrine of Irresistible Grace, or Effectual Calling as it is often called, simply means that when God seeks out to save someone, He does. This is accomplished by causing someone to be born again/regenerated by the Holy Spirit which instantly produces faith in the person by which the person is then justified. Regeneration is not the whole of salvation, and neither is justification; they are both integral parts of it, though, of course. I would be happy to elaborate on that if you like, but it would probably be better to start back up the stream a bit. Effectual Calling is the fourth head of Doctrine, and though one can indeed support it with Scripture in and of itself (such as <a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=john+6%3A37-40&src=esv.org">John 6:37-40</a>) it helps to start at, well, the beginning with anything. Wouldn't you agree? :)

I would be happy to respond to anything you say. You won't get banned here for discussing like you do on Calvinist sites. You can even claim someone is unsaved and you don't get banned for that either.

Hadn't planned on saying anyone isn't saved, but nice to know all the same. :)

Their position is so untenable all they can do is like John Calvin kill the Arminians or in this day and age, ban them from the internet. James White definitely is unsaved and in all probability going to Hell, because he will likely never give his life to Christ.

Here is something that I cannot understand. For example... Calvin was dead before there was anyone around who would call themselves an Arminian at all. Furthermore, how is it that you can know the status of salvation for anyone? Dr. White readily affirms that salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone by grace alone...so I fail to see why you say what you do or what basis you have for saying it.

He worships a false Christ. Your conscience can't see this because likewise I am sure it has not been quickened by the Holy Spirit, but I pray one day you will.

A false Christ? I'm afraid I'd have to ask for some documentation of that, and in something other than videos that you have produced. :) It is also interesting to note that you use the terminology of being "quickened by the Holy Spirit." That's called "regeneration" in some circles, and indeed, it is something that the Holy Spirit does. :D

You're underestimating what a bad man he is: he is "condemned already" (John 3.18) for refusing God's way of salvation for another. There's lots of a good videos on the internet that show James White is not born-again.

Care to point one out other than one you produced? Perhaps some primary sources, maybe one of his videos where he denies foundational tenants of the Christian Faith?

Thanks, Troy!

sdg,
dbh

[AlwaysLoved]

Well, the intent was never to be coy or cute. So my apologies if it came across that way.

So far coyness has been your thing. If it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, it's probably a duck.

Here you lost me: What Scriptural principle or command did I violate? I missed it.

The simple matter of being unable to substantiate your belief.

Well, if Calvinism were really what you make it out to be, then I would agree with you. However, whether you realize it or not, you really do not understand what the so-called 5 points of Calvinism really entail.

Oh don't be coy. Make it out to be what?

Being able to quote the doctrines is only a start of course; fleshing them out properly is another thing all together. For example, the Doctrine of Irresistible Grace, or Effectual Calling as it is often called, simply means that when God seeks out to save someone, He does. This is accomplished by causing someone to be born again/regenerated by the Holy Spirit which instantly produces faith in the person by which the person is then justified. Regeneration is not the whole of salvation, and neither is justification; they are both integral parts of it, though, of course. I would be happy to elaborate on that if you like, but it would probably be better to start back up the stream a bit. Effectual Calling is the fourth head of Doctrine, and though one can indeed support it with Scripture in and of itself (such as <a href="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=john+6%3A37-40&src=esv.org">John 6:37-40</a>) it helps to start at, well, the beginning with anything. Wouldn't you agree? :)

The problem with your irresistible grace theory is that it doesn't give the person the choice and just irresistibly imposes it on a person. Since such behavior is unethical for us towards one another, it would be for your god too showing you that you are not a Christian. What's even worse is your god sends people to hell without any opportunity for salvation. Again, that is Satanic. In Christianity, faith can be freely obtained by anyone; not so in Calvinism.

Hadn't planned on saying anyone isn't saved, but nice to know all the same. :)

How ecumenical of you. That in itself is wrong, and you missed the point. The point is it is wrong to silence the voice of Christians against Calvinism. We should be allowed to freely speak the truth.

Here is something that I cannot understand. For example... Calvin was dead before there was anyone around who would call themselves an Arminian at all. Furthermore, how is it that you can know the status of salvation for anyone? Dr. White readily affirms that salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone by grace alone...so I fail to see why you say what you do or what basis you have for saying it.

Those who rejected John Calvin's beliefs are those who were targeted for execution. That would include Arminians. Arminianism is a belief system before or after Arminius. A person reveals whether they are saved or not: we shall know them by their fruit. If you can't know if someone is saved and who is a member of the body of Christ then you have no fellowship. It is all pretentious. Faith alone and grace alone are to James White not what they are to Christians. These may be freely obtained but to White they are not. They are irresistibly imposed on a person or denied. As Dave Hunt says, What Love is This? God is relational so He enjoys our responses and freely obtaining the water of life. He doesn't have to be like you and your god. Your god really is pathetic.

I understand you don't understand when you said of yourself you: "I fail to see why you say what you do or what basis you have for saying it." However, that contradicts your former statement: "whether you realize it or not, you really do not understand what the so-called 5 points of Calvinism really entail." This is obviously doublespeak. The Bible says be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8). Just know you don't have a conscience to see what Christians can see because you are not born-again. It's impossible for you to see what we can see. Attempting to teach an unregenerate to worship God of the Bible or do good is like trying to teach a dead man. You can't understand. God has not given it to you to be able to. All I can do is continue to encourage you to seek after God with an honest heart and you shall surely find Him. If you don't, then you won't.

A false Christ? I'm afraid I'd have to ask for some documentation of that, and in something other than videos that you have produced. :) It is also interesting to note that you use the terminology of being "quickened by the Holy Spirit." That's called "regeneration" in some circles, and indeed, it is something that the Holy Spirit does. :D

But this is something the Holy Spirit has not done for you because God does not save that way you want Him to. He won't save you being selfish.

[David Hewitt]

My goodness Troy... I can see why so many people do not wish to interact with you, and I am afraid I'll have to be one of them. I have read how you conducted yourself over at CARM:

http://www.carm.org/troy-brooks

and how it has been you rather than the host of the site who was acting in an un-Christian manner. If there is a particular text over which we have disagreement that you would like to discuss, then we can do so. However, it will have to be done without your constant accusations of a person being lost or your assuming the worst from what I am saying. I assure you, I meant nothing hostile or deceptive in what I had previously posted, but it seems you insisted that I did. If we cannot get past that, then there will be an impass rather quickly.


sdg,
dbh

[AlwaysLoved]

Oh you are just being coy again with your tail between your legs.

Here is the response to that link of Matt Slick which he has not dealt with,

http://biblocality.com/forums/showth...to-Troy-Brooks

Clearly you can see the sins of Matt Slick and why he is not born-again. One is not allowed to discuss these things on a Calvinist site because as we have seen they ban and censor like that murderous Protestant Pope of Geneva would do. You can discuss them here though with no fear of being removed for simple discussion on forums.

What you believe is really wrong for if it is evil for man to act like this then it is evil for your god also. You, Matt Slick and James White are clearly unsaved according to God's word. Almost all Calvinists are going to Hell. Don't blame me for what the Holy Spirit proves in the word of God.

I think your coyness is deceptive. You still don't deal with the problem before you that this is evil. If it is evil for us to act like this then it is evil for the god of Calvinism. There is no two ways about it. Praise be to God grace is not irresistible, atonement is not limited, election is not unconditional, man is not totally depraved and we don't persevere but the saints are preserved.

My prayers go out to you because you are lost. If that will be all fine, but just know my door is always open to you. This is another difference between Christians and Calvinists. Calvinists shut their minds down, cut off the line of communication, because their backs are up against the wall. What else can they do since they don't want to repent? Alas, they can't even repent because of their idol they erect in which they assume they were Totally unable to.

[David Hewitt]

Troy:

If there is anyone not saved in this exchange between the two of us, it is you sir, and not I.

Now, if we go under the assumption that we are both Christians, then we can trust the Holy Spirit to speak His truth from His Word.

So then, if you wish to continue this, let us go this route, and be done with your constant drumbeat of "Calvinism is evil" and "you are clearly not saved" nonsense:

Provide a verse of Scripture you think Calvinists use and misrepresent. I'll provide an exegesis of that passage using sound hermeneutics and thus exegesis, especially in the realm of context, in response to yours.

Fair enough? If not, then I would think it best for this discussion to be over.

sdg,
dbh

[AlwaysLoved]

You really are not born-again because you refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Whereas I did. Now then, I don't think you should assume we are both saved since God only saves one way. You're contradicting yourself. I for one would feel ugly and gross inside if I was saved the way you claim a person is saved. Your conscience can't sense this. If you have a verse I would be happy to help you with it. Just know there are no verses in the Bible for Total depravity or any of the 5 points of Calvinism. And many verses that speak against your faith. I try not to cast pearls before the swine. My prayers go out to you.

[David Hewitt]

You really are not born-again because you refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Whereas I did. Now then, I don't think you should assume we are both saved since God only saves one way. You're contradicting yourself. I for one would feel ugly and gross inside if I was saved the way you claim a person is saved. Your conscience can't sense this. If you have a verse I would be happy to help you with it. Just know there are no verses in the Bible for Total depravity or any of the 5 points of Calvinism. And many verses that speak against your faith. I try not to cast pearls before the swine. My prayers go out to you.

Something that you need to understand, Troy, is that regenerated does NOT equal saved. Regeneration is part of salvation; justification is another. We believe, ie, have faith in Jesus to be justified, not to be regenerated. And, since you have thrown the ball back into my court, I'll hit it back with a verse from Romans 3:

Romans 3:28 ESV For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

So then, it is clear to see: We are justified by faith, or believing (the verb for "to believe" is just the verb form of "faith" in the original Greek), not regenerated. Rather, how is one regenerated, or born again (born from above)? Scripture does indeed address this:

John 3:3-8 ESV Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." (4) Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" (5) Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. (6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (7) Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' (8) The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

A few things worthy to note that are relevant to this discussion and therefore this issue:

First, please notice Nicodemus's question to Jesus in verse 4. He point-blank asked Him, "How can a man be born when he is old?" He was asking how someone is born again, the very thing Jesus mentioned in verse three. What was Jesus's response? Was it to "repent and believe" in order to be born again (regenerated)? The answer is no. Rather, Jesus goes on to explain in verses 5-8 that the Spirit of God is the one who gives birth to spirit, and that we cannot predict when God will do this. The quickening of the Spirit, the making someone born again, is like the wind; we do not know where it comes from or where it goes. This is the way it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.

This is of course NOT to say that people are not required to repent of sin and believe in Christ to be saved; they most certainly are, and such are graces produced in someone who is born again at the very moment of regeneration, which is, as I said before, part of the work of salvation God works in us, not the whole of it.

Does that make sense?

SDG,
dbh

[AlwaysLoved]

Yes regeneration does equal saved. No person who receives initial salvation is NOT regenerated and no person regenerated DOES NOT receive initial salvation because they are one in the same. Justified by faith shows our legal standing before God. Regeneration is not just a part of salvation, it is salvation for salvation is the regeneration of the spirit's innerman. You admit you are unsaved because you did not freely obtain the gift of faith to be regenerated. You just assumed you were regenerated already which is pompous and pride-filled.

First you must believe then God will regenerate you. When Jesus spoke to Nicodemus, He told him he must believe to be saved. You can't predict when someone will come to God with an honest heart to be saved by the Spirit of God. Never do we see in Scripture a person is regenerated which brings them to believe; they always believed to be regenerated: "whosoever believeth" (John 3.16) is clearly placed on the person to have the free-choice.

"Willingly offered" is found five times, such as "the people willingly offered themselves" (Judges 5.2); "willingly offered a freewill offering unto the Lord" (Ezra 3.5). The offer of salvation to Nicodemus, "whosoever believeth" (John 3.16) would not be given if he could not actually receive the cross by faith as a helpless sinner. Can people choose the cross, giving glory to God, without having to save (or regenerate) them first? Would it be unrighteous for someone to be saved (or disallowed salvation) without regard first for their choice? Can the spiritually dead repent of their sins, and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior? "Everyone that thirsteth, come ye to the waters.... Let the wicked forsake his ways, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon" (Is. 55.1,7).

[David Hewitt]

Yes regeneration does equal saved. No person who receives initial salvation is NOT regenerated and no person regenerated DOES NOT receive initial salvation because they are one in the same. Justified by faith shows our legal standing before God. Regeneration is not just a part of salvation, it is salvation for salvation is the regeneration of the spirit's innerman. You admit you are unsaved because you did not freely obtain the gift of faith to be regenerated. You just assumed you were regenerated already which is pompous and pride-filled.

Ok, then we have a serious problem. I would completely agree that justification by faith related to our legal standing before God; justification is forensic by nature. god declares righteous all those who have faith in Jesus. Yet, from your own description above, are you saying that a person can be saved (in your terms, regenerated) without being justified, since, according to you, regeneration and salvation are "one and the same"? IF that is so, then where did justification go? How can someone be saved without proper legal standing before God? I would submit to you that they cannot be! So then, justification is needed for salvation, as is regeneration (which cannot be the whole of salvation if justification is also needed to be saved). Sir, you are in error.

First you must believe then God will regenerate you.

Show me that order in Scripture, where it uses the word "regeneration" or the phrase "born again" or "born from above" where is says "You must believe in order to be." You have failed to substantiate your believe in such a way, and I would submit to you the reason is that you cannot. :)

When Jesus spoke to Nicodemus, He told him he must believe to be saved. You can't predict when someone will come to God with an honest heart to be saved by the Spirit of God. Never do we see in Scripture a person is regenerated which brings them to believe; they always believed to be regenerated: "whosoever believeth" (John 3.16) is clearly placed on the person to have the free-choice.

Ah, the "whosoever" of John 3:16. Let's talk about that.

John 3:9-16 ESV Nicodemus said to him, "How can these things be?" (10) Jesus answered him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? (11) Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. (12) If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? (13) No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. (14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, (15) that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. (16) "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Please note: After Jesus's discussion about being born again in verses 3--8, Nicodemus asks him another question, and Jesus changes the conversation slightly to answer it, giving a different answer to the question. Jesus has already talked about being born again; that is not the subject of his answer in these verses. Rather, he is addressing how these things can be, and moves into belief. It is noteworthy that Jesus talked about being born again first, and now in this section of Scripture he talks about believing and being saved, using different terminology. He gives a fuller answer about Salvation as a whole, and also talks about how this can be in verse 14, with the Son of Man being lifted up. It is Jesus's sacrifice that makes it so that people can be saved of course.

In any case, the issue of John 3:16 has nothing at all to do with supposed "free choice" The verse would best be translated, "God loved the world in this manner: He gave his only Son so that all the believers in Him should not perish but have eternal life." The point of the verse is not to put forward some concept of free will. Rather, it is to be a verse of security. Jesus is saying that all those who do truly believe in Him will have eternal life. The verse is descriptive and not prescriptive. That is, it is describing a reality rather than telling people something to do.

"Willingly offered" is found five times, such as "the people willingly offered themselves" (Judges 5.2); "willingly offered a freewill offering unto the Lord" (Ezra 3.5). The offer of salvation to Nicodemus, "whosoever believeth" (John 3.16) would not be given if he could not actually receive the cross by faith as a helpless sinner. Can people choose the cross, giving glory to God, without having to save (or regenerate) them first? Would it be unrighteous for someone to be saved (or disallowed salvation) without regard first for their choice? Can the spiritually dead repent of their sins, and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior? "Everyone that thirsteth, come ye to the waters.... Let the wicked forsake his ways, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon" (Is. 55.1,7).

No one is saying that people are not to offer themselves willingly to God, whatever the context. I would agree that we must. We must turn from our wicked ways to the LORD. This is not in dispute. The question is this: how does a sinner who is radically opposed to God do this? We return to John 3:

John 3:19-21 ESV And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. (20) For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. (21) But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God."

Who does wicked things? Do not all men do wicked things? Is this not the case as is said in Scripture more than once (such as Romans 3)? What does a person who does wicked things NOT do? Such a person "does not come to the light". Why is this? It is because, were he to do so, "his deeds [would] be exposed." Verse 21 clearly says that there are people who do come to the light, people who do what is true....yet how can this be, since people who do wicked things do not come to the light? Verse 21 gives the answer. When someone does come to the light, ie come to Jesus, it is "clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God." God gets the credit for the person coming into the light. Thanks be to God for working a miracle that we would come into the light!

One other thing: The issue of "freewill offerings" has nothing to do with someone's supposed free will. All you have to do is back up a verse to see this:

Ezra 3:4-5 ESV And they kept the Feast of Booths, as it is written, and offered the daily burnt offerings by number according to the rule, as each day required, (5) and after that the regular burnt offerings, the offerings at the new moon and at all the appointed feasts of the LORD, and the offerings of everyone who made a freewill offering to the LORD.

"Freewill" offerings are contrasted with the "regular burnt offerings" or the "daily burnt offerings." Such were "as each day required. The people didn't have a choice in the matter with those; they were required by the Law, and everyone had to bring them. On the other hand, many chose to make "freewill" offerings, that is, offerings that we not required by the Law but that people wished to give over and above what was required. The difference between the too is that one was required and one was not. The offerings that were not were called "freewill" offerings.

sdg,
dbh