Ok, then we have a serious problem. I would completely agree that justification by faith related to our legal standing before God; justification is forensic by nature. god declares righteous all those who have faith in Jesus. Yet, from your own description above, are you saying that a person can be saved (in your terms, regenerated) without being justified, since, according to you, regeneration and salvation are "one and the same"? IF that is so, then where did justification go? How can someone be saved without proper legal standing before God? I would submit to you that they cannot be! So then, justification is needed for salvation, as is regeneration (which cannot be the whole of salvation if justification is also needed to be saved). Sir, you are in error.Originally Posted by AlwaysLoved
Show me that order in Scripture, where it uses the word "regeneration" or the phrase "born again" or "born from above" where is says "You must believe in order to be." You have failed to substantiate your believe in such a way, and I would submit to you the reason is that you cannot. :)
Ah, the "whosoever" of John 3:16. Let's talk about that.
John 3:9-16 ESV Nicodemus said to him, "How can these things be?" (10) Jesus answered him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? (11) Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. (12) If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? (13) No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. (14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, (15) that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. (16) "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Please note: After Jesus's discussion about being born again in verses 3--8, Nicodemus asks him another question, and Jesus changes the conversation slightly to answer it, giving a different answer to the question. Jesus has already talked about being born again; that is not the subject of his answer in these verses. Rather, he is addressing how these things can be, and moves into belief. It is noteworthy that Jesus talked about being born again first, and now in this section of Scripture he talks about believing and being saved, using different terminology. He gives a fuller answer about Salvation as a whole, and also talks about how this can be in verse 14, with the Son of Man being lifted up. It is Jesus's sacrifice that makes it so that people can be saved of course.
In any case, the issue of John 3:16 has nothing at all to do with supposed "free choice" The verse would best be translated, "God loved the world in this manner: He gave his only Son so that all the believers in Him should not perish but have eternal life." The point of the verse is not to put forward some concept of free will. Rather, it is to be a verse of security. Jesus is saying that all those who do truly believe in Him will have eternal life. The verse is descriptive and not prescriptive. That is, it is describing a reality rather than telling people something to do.
No one is saying that people are not to offer themselves willingly to God, whatever the context. I would agree that we must. We must turn from our wicked ways to the LORD. This is not in dispute. The question is this: how does a sinner who is radically opposed to God do this? We return to John 3:
John 3:19-21 ESV And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. (20) For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. (21) But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God."
Who does wicked things? Do not all men do wicked things? Is this not the case as is said in Scripture more than once (such as Romans 3)? What does a person who does wicked things NOT do? Such a person "does not come to the light". Why is this? It is because, were he to do so, "his deeds [would] be exposed." Verse 21 clearly says that there are people who do come to the light, people who do what is true....yet how can this be, since people who do wicked things do not come to the light? Verse 21 gives the answer. When someone does come to the light, ie come to Jesus, it is "clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God." God gets the credit for the person coming into the light. Thanks be to God for working a miracle that we would come into the light!
One other thing: The issue of "freewill offerings" has nothing to do with someone's supposed free will. All you have to do is back up a verse to see this:
Ezra 3:4-5 ESV And they kept the Feast of Booths, as it is written, and offered the daily burnt offerings by number according to the rule, as each day required, (5) and after that the regular burnt offerings, the offerings at the new moon and at all the appointed feasts of the LORD, and the offerings of everyone who made a freewill offering to the LORD.
"Freewill" offerings are contrasted with the "regular burnt offerings" or the "daily burnt offerings." Such were "as each day required. The people didn't have a choice in the matter with those; they were required by the Law, and everyone had to bring them. On the other hand, many chose to make "freewill" offerings, that is, offerings that we not required by the Law but that people wished to give over and above what was required. The difference between the too is that one was required and one was not. The offerings that were not were called "freewill" offerings.
sdg,
dbh
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