Step 4 is most relevant, for it addresses not the natural cause and effects (Step 1), but any supernatural cause and effects that may be out there in gods or otherwise; so, since we still sin, you know there was not an eternity of the past of causes and effects in the supernatural arena. We would have certainly have been without sin by now!Originally Posted by Juliet
What else can you do but mindlessly accuse of parody or non-academic since you don't rely on any evidence yet. On the contrary the parody and the non-academic is the idea of puff the magic dragon that you propose or disregarding sin. Your approach is in the scholarly community considered absurd and of no account. No reasoning scientist would ever suggest to you that things happen all by themselves or that there is nothing to this evidential exponential improvement in our conscience these past 6000 years. Your approach is extremely poor and of no substance. And may I say that of a dullard!What seems like a perfect proof to you is actually an extremely poor, non-academic proof that could easily be mistaken for a parody. You need to seriously address the problems in Steps 1, 2, 3, and 4, because it fails to stand under its own weight, otherwise you will have taken the almost elegantly written Kalam argument and mangled it beyond theological repair. You do not have a proof of god, and definitely not a proof of the Christian god.
I never restated my proof. It is the exact same proof for many years now. Nothing has changed of the basic 4 step proof. Something so consistently strong says something, don't you think?However, after you restated your proof, you wrote the following:
Lots of people know more about the Bible on details of various kinds than me and lots of people know less, but it is knowledge for knowledge sake alone that NOT is the salvation of Christ, but in coming to the cross to receive Christ as your Lord and Savior for the forgiveness of sins and receive eternal life. If you believe in this man who was also God so shall you be saved. If you are willing to stand up for the one who died for you, so shall you be saved. Since you find no problem with the Bible, then you should accept it. Why sit on the fence? A degree in religion is not going to save you. Anyone can be saved, for it is the simplest thing in the world. There is one thing though may I say, I don't know anyone alive today that knows the depth of the Scripture on spiritual truths revealed in the 5 Deeper Truths and the 37 questions in your profile to this extent, which are things that really count and spiritually motivate you to overcome in Christ! Take a look.Such God would necessitate His mercy and that mercy is revealed when Jesus entered into creation to die on the cross for your sins to give you eternal life if you were willing to receive it. None compare to the love of Christ, He said He is God and proved it, fulfilling 62 prophecies (probabilities less than 1 in a trillion for any mortal man to get lucky), surrounding 40 writers over 1500 years, in a historical-religio context, showing God's redemptive design, and the apostles died for testifying to His resurrection and ascension. The resurrection of Christ is unique and best testified. No person is more well documented in antiquity. There are 42 writers, both Christian and non-Christian speaking of Jesus in the first 150 years of his death. This far outweighs the number of writers about the Emperor of Rome who died 11 years after Jesus died by a margin of 4 to 1. Skeptics have no considerable valid explanation against Jesus being God.If it means anything to you at all, I wanted to get my degree in New Testament history (however many odd things lead to others, and I earned degrees in Business/Finance instead), so I know about the history of the bible, when it was written, and so on, and I'm 100% positive I know more about the bible than you do.
Abraham was born about 2091 BC, Isaac born about 2066 BC, Jacob and Esau born about 2006 BC. Jacob fled Haran around 1929 BC. Joseph was born 1915 BC. Moses was born about 1526 BC. David became king of Israel 1010 BC. So you can see the Israelites that Jacob became existed long before you propose.Long story story short, here are some facts to digest:
- Israelites did not exist anytime before 1000 BC, and didnt begin to write down their stories until 900 BC.
- We dont know how any of the apostles died, apart from Judas. The martyrdom of the apostles is something of an extra-biblical addition that isnt actually recorded in the bible or history, so much as it circulated by word of mouth until it became "accepted" as a fact.
- We dont know anything about the life of Christ. We are fairly certain he existed, but his life is completely lost in myth and legend. Was he a good person who preached that people should humble themselves to God? Probably. Did he feed 5000 people with a few fish and two loaves of bread? Probably not. Was he crucified as a political criminal? Probably. Did he reanimate from the dead and begin preaching to people in the streets? Probably not.
The real life events Moses recorded himself. If writings existed this old in other cultures, there is no reason it can not also be true in the promise land of Israel. There is no reason to suggest otherwise. This has long since been accepted and no change of view has ever arisen. We can place some trust in our forefathers for the integrity that stands. Have you ever thought why this information remains with us today in the most popular book ever sold? It is because of its truths.
James who is a brother of John is recorded in the Bible as being martyred. For you to say otherwise indicates how out of touch you are. Since there is no reason to doubt the recordings of the martyrdoms by those who knew the apostles such as Polycarp and Clement and so forth in good conscience, and various other writers of which there are many, to suggest otherwise is really without foundation. These are recordings of history, not by oral tradition. What starts off by witnessing through the eyes is transferred orally and then onto written paper. They are actually documented in the earliest church fathers just as you might expect who would take responsibility in sharing this data. I recommend you get Gary Habermas' "The Case for the Resurrection for Jesus Christ" (2004). Awesome proof texts of the primary writers in the first and second century. There is direct connection from person to person from the earliest apostles to the second and third generation of apostles.
There is no possibility of legend, for Paul writes about his meetings with Peter and James and so does Luke for the Jerusalem council in which they agreed on several things. Not only this but Paul was saved about 2 years after Christ died, he saw Christ resurrected as did 11 different group settings. Within 3 years after Paul being saved, he came to Jerusalem to meet Peter and James, so these were very early creeds he taught such as in 1 Cor.15. He was with Barnabas and his travels are recorded on 3 missionary journeys with Timothy, Silas and others.
Since the Stephen and James were put to death in the Bible, and Paul nearly died several times it is recorded, it is not unreasonable to believe early church fathers in the first and second century documenting where and how the apostles died. Nearly all of them were put to death in various ways. Get that highly recommended book.
Jesus made in clear and in no uncertain terms He is God. Jesus said He is the Son of Man and the Son of God. Jews new this to mean He is God, so they killed Him. The apostle are in agreement, saying In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God.
We know so much about Christ. We have 42 writers within the first 150 years of his life who wrote about him. Did He feed 5000? Of course. Being God, it would be no problem for Him to intervene in His own creation, just like someone who owns a computer can upload software.
Was he seen resurrected as testified by Matthew, John, Paul, Peter, James and Jude (his two brothers)? Remember these are eyewitnesses accounts who knew Jesus personally: the 12 apostles saw him resurrected, Paul saw him. These are not second hand stories passed down as in other religions. James did not believe his brother was God until after Jesus died and was seen resurrected by his own two eyes. Paul was killing the saints, but they miraculously one day Jesus appeared before Paul in Person, and he could not but be repent and give his life to Christ. Isn't that wonderful? The disciples and the women could literally touch Jesus.
Paul even said that if what he and the apostles are saying is false then the many who know of these events could prove otherwise and write about them and make a laughing stalk of them. But none ever did. Nobody denied the empty tomb. Nobody before Christ had a resurrection. Copycats came after His resurrection and they are not well evidenced or with much context. How wonderful that God enters into His own creation to provide salvation. Imagine! Lets say Christ doesn't even return for a billion years. What will always be the most cherished document that gives us comfort? The 66 books of God's Word. Millions of books will be written on Christ, but one book remains. How wise, righteous and holy He is to make Himself so easily known! Thus, leaving you without excuse!
This same power of resurrection is available to all of us who are saved and is a sure promise of our salvation.
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