Quote Originally Posted by Churchwork View Post
evan,

Don't accuse that I don't love you, for I do love you.
No you don't. Your actions are patantly devoid of real love. I understand that you are far from perfect, as am I. However, you do not know even the Biblical meaning of the word 'love'.

And I tell you the truth because I don't want you to go to hell. I would not wish this on my worse enemy. Presently you are on the course for hell because you have not accepted the uncreated Jesus as your Savior, but prefer to believe in a created concoction as taught by the cult of mormonism.
That's another case of MINDLESS REPETITION. That is also a 4 point infraction, as you simply repeat over and over that Jesus is 'uncreated' without providing any proof. If you do not address this issue, I will cease communication with you.

Due to your selfishness, you have done this to yourself, willingly accepted their lie and the lie of one man Joseph Smith who rejected Christ and Christianity. So you are without the love of the Lord in your life, because you reject Jesus as the 2nd Person in the Trinity as being uncreated. And so, John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. Because you do not have the love of the Lord, you seek to alter His loving Word by trying to make the Father, the Son and Spirit created separate beings instead of the One and Only Uncreated Triune Being. At least realize you are not Christian as Christianity has long since been conveyed in the 66 books of the Bible.


I am "without the love of the Lord in your life, because you reject Jesus as the 2nd Person in the Trinity as being uncreated."????

Are you for real?????

Have you completely missed the entire point of the Bible?? You have not shown any verse from the Bible where it says that God will condemn me for not believing that Jesus is 'uncreated'.

It does say that God will condemn those who don't believe in Jesus.

The book of Revelation was written AD 95/96 which is clearly the last book of the Bible intended since it speaks of eternity future in the new city. Rev. 22.18,19 as part of the summary book of the Bible sums up any alterations one may make in all of the 66 books of the Bible. As Gen. 1 gives us eternity past, Rev. 21 gives us eternity future. Rev. 22 gives us the last warning. Gen. 3 gives us the details of Gen. 2. Rev. 12 to 19 give us the details of Rev. 6 to 11. Rev. 2 & 3 are the church age, concurrent with Rev. 6. Rev. 4 is the picture of the universe from heaven. Rev. 5 is Lamb slain on the cross along with the first seal which shows the arrow has been shot out of the bow giving Satan a deadly wound at the cross. God seals the 66 books by the number 66 too. 6 is the number of Satan, but also the number of man because man loves Satan's ways, and the redemptive design separates these two in the 66 books. Mormons and the Roman Church and the Eastern Church seek to add books to the 66 books of God's Word. God will judge you for this sin according to Rev. 22.18,19. The millennial kingdom (Rev. 20) separates the dispensation of grace from eternity future. The 1000 years is a transition period when Christ reigns on earth before the new city and new earth commences. God works not in jerky motions, but flows from one dispensation to the next.
Revelation is the last book written for the 66 books of the Bible-the complete Word of God (John 1.1). Rev. 22.18,19 not only involves this book of Revelation, but may be extended to all the books of the Bible because Revelation sums up all the books of the Bible.
As great as that is, you have no presented any scriptural evidence to say that Revelation is the last book of the Bible. It is widely accepted that John wrote the Book of Revelation about AD 91, on the isle of Patmos. However, after that he returned to Ephesus where he wrote his three other epistles.

This alone shows that the Book of Revelation was never intended to be the final book of the Bible. Despite its contents, it never claims to be the final book, it just seems to be convenient. I have shown that the Book of Revelation is the prophecy John refers to:

Rev 1:1-3 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Please show other scriptural evidence that the Bible as a whole is considered to be the 'prophecy' that John speaks of in Revelation 22.

Messiah was to die as a sacrifice for sin
, vicarious sacrifice (Is. 53.5,6,8,10,11,12; John 1.29, 11.49-52, Acts 10.43, 13.38,39, Rom. 5.6,8).
You are quite right that the Old Testament says that the Messiah will die as a sacrifice. However, I asked you to show where in the Old Testament it says that the sacrifice of Jesus would replace the sacrifices of the Old Testament.

Have you not the faith to believe the perfect sacrifice to be uncreated?
It is not a question of faith. By the way, I am still waiting for you to offer scripture which says that God is 'uncreated'.

I am saved by His paying the eternal price for the forgiveness of my sins because He is uncreated and died for me which I have accepted freely and can never be lost, but you don't have this eternal blessing because you worship a facsimile which you make a created being in your selfish image. This is your great sin and why you will be eternally separated from God when you are judged at Great White Throne and cast into the lake of fire. This is not love that you want this.
As much as your sincereity if admirable, you are saved (if at all) because you believe in Jesus Christ and his atonement, and obey the commandments of God. You have not offered any scriptural evidence which states that God will condemn me for not believing that he is 'uncreated'.

God cannot be different beings because then you have created beings and a God that is impersonal social construct instead a personal singular Triune Being that has always existed.
That does not make sense.

My God has always existed who created you and me, so He trumps your god always because you admit your god is created.
Here we go with the "My God is better than your God" part.

Since nothing in nature happens all by itself and nothing in the supernatural happens all by itself, then the ultimate creator cannot himself be created, because if he was, then you would have to ask who created him.
You keep repeating this with no scriptural evidence to support it. Does this count as mindless repetition? Or do you only issue those to people whom you can't beat with your self-righteous ego?

By your own logic, it would seem that if nothing happens all by itself, then God must have been created, or he couldn't exist. The only other alternative is that God simply popped into existance, and is completely devoid of participation in your logic which states that nothing can exists without a cause. If nothing exists without a cause, then God too must follow that same pattern.

And to keep asking this question of who created who is to say there is an eternity of the past of gods creating gods, but this is not possible because that would mean you had an eternity of the past to be sinless, yet you still sin. The exponential progression in our conscience these past 6000 years shows it will not take much longer to reach sinlessness in the saved, so one knows without a doubt there was not an eternity of the past of causes and effects for you to attain sinlessness, but you were created by the uncreated creator. However, we both know your spirit is dead to God and your conscience can't accept this simple reasoning because you are hellbound and don't want to be saved.
You say that mankind has 'evolved' over 6000 years and will be sinless soon. I say that that is rubbish, as John says:

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Thus we see that there is no mention of mankind becoming sinless. You claim this because of one scripture alone (I can't even find your reference for it) that apparently claims that those who live in the 'new city' are sinless?

Please provide this reference.

And to keep asking this question of who created who is to say there is an eternity of the past of gods creating gods, but this is not possible because that would mean you had an eternity of the past to be sinless, yet you still sin.
I chose to repeat this part of your post as it highlights some serious error on your part. You say that this is your 'proof' that God is 'uncreated'? By this rationale, you state that:
1) If God is created, then there is an eternity of gods creating gods
2) If #1 is correct, I have had an eternity to become sinless
and
3) This cannot be true as I still sin

Do I really need to point out the confusion here? I will anyway:
1) Why do you assume that I have been alive, on earth, for an eternity?

The one who is capable of doing good is the man who has accepted the uncreated Savior Jesus Christ. A man who does good by the "good self" whilst still rejecting Jesus as being uncreated and as the personal Savior in the Trinity is a man still hostile and separated from God. You are a person who still is hostile to God. You can't see God, nor will God reveal Himself to you until you accepted Jesus as being uncreated because your personal problem is rejecting the uncreatedness of God.
Please provide evidence that 'acceptence' of Jesus hinges upon believing that he is 'uncreated'.

Again, please provide evidence that God will condemn me for not believing that Jesus is 'uncreated'.

Contrary to your professed belief, I read:

Revelation 22:14 [i]Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.[/i]

There is no mention of an belief that God is 'uncreated'.

Different people have their different things they use to reject God, but yours is that you reject Him being uncreated; therefore, all you have is hell which is a blessing to Christians to keep you eternally separated from us because you admit to us now you never want to be saved as we are saved. We will no longer shed a tear for you in the new city.
That is not a statement from someone who actually knows God, nor what real love is. Your words betray you.

Please show me how you can think that because I do not believe that God is 'uncreated' it means that I have rejected God.

I keep asking for scriptural evidence of this and you continue to fail to do this. In fact you posted me an infraction based upon:


You are still committing repetitive self-declarations in your selfishness without evidence. Since the Bible only ever has taught an all-knowing, omnipresent and omnipotent God being uncreated which continues in oral and written tradition and the writings of Paul in the history of the church unchallenged, then for you to introduce a new teaching diabolically opposed to Christianity, you would need some evidence, but you supply none, so this infraction is to warn you to stop committing this sin, because this is not a forum for such mindlessness. It is not conducive to discussion, because being a clanging bell while the burden of the proof is on you will not help your case at all. Satan does no less in proclamating things without evidence or support. Because there is not an eternity of the past of cause and effects since you would still not be sinning now if having had an eternity to be perfected, then you know the uncreated created. This is proper cause and effect. A dead conscience can't sense the uncreated.

You accuse me of being a 'clanging bell', and being 'not conducive to discussion'. I have never seen someone more oppressive nor dictatorial in suppressing discussion than you are. You issue infractions to others breaking rules that you do constantly, yet you seem to abide outside these rules.

So, what is my evidence for Jesus being 'uncreated'?

Jesus is spoken of being the 'Son of God'. This implies a relationship that is very much one of relationship. God refers to himself as our 'Father'. Indeed, LDS claim that God is our Father, as Paul says in Acts:

Act 17:28-29 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

And compare with:

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

As such, being children of God, we may become like him.

Lorenzo Snow, a President of the Church, once said "As man now is, God once was: as God now is, man may be."

There is, I admit, limited scriptural evidence in the Bible that God is 'created'. I would point out that you have offered NO evidence that God is 'uncreated', and yet continue to issue me infractions for saying that this is so. However, when we examine statements surrounding this, a pattern is found.

Lorenzo's statement is clearly applicable to Christ himself, a God who became mortal for a time and yet was still and is still God. Furthermore, we are told that we can become like Christ and God - we can "put on the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:3-10), and we can become "like him" (1 John 3:2) and we can receive glorious resurrected bodies (Phil. 3:21; 1 Cor. 15:40-45) just as Christ has. Futher to this point, I would add that as Jesus has a physical resurrected body (Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have), and Jesus is the 'express image of his Father' In fact, the scriptures go beyond saying that we can become 'like' them to saying that we are actually "joint-heirs with Christ" (Romans 8:14-18), which implies that we will on some level be equal with Christ, inasmuch as we too are "joint-heirs". What that practically means, I offer no speculation, merely what scripture itself states.

Again, I admit that there are no direct statements that to the effect that God is 'created'. Some have pointed to the verse from Revelation 1:5-6

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

which seems to state that it is Jesus was washed us from our sins in his own blood, and then makes us kings and priests unto God and his Father. I do not claim to know if that is what this verse is indeed saying, but it does seem to say just that.

If that interpretation is correct, then it does indeed say that God (not Jesus) has a Father. Even if you accept that 'God' refers to this 'one being', then that God has a Father too.

The distinctions of the 3 Persons are distinctions, nothing about separate beings; that is why Christianity has always believed in the distinct Persons of the Godhead and never anything about different beings. Christianity is monotheistic, not polytheistic or tritheistic.
I have provided scriptures which I claim support my beliefs. You have offered nothing in return to support yours (correct me if I am wrong). I say that such scriptures demonstrate separate individuals, you say they mean mere distinctions, however, your have nothing else to support this. I have offered scriptures which clarify the notion of 'one' god, and you offer nothing in return.

LDS theoogy claims that after the death of the apostles, Christianity fell into darkness, characterised by the loss of essential doctrines, such as baptism, church authority etc, and that this continued for many centuries. If this is indeed true, then the doctrine of separate individuals making up the Godhead is among them. I ask you to provide evidence of this doctrine - ie: that God and Jesus and the Holy Ghost are 'one' being.

Your cult comes along 1800 years and wants to teach polytheism, but this is overassuming, since the humility of reading the Bible is not to read more than what is there, so since you can't find anything about the Holy Spirit being a created being or Christ Jesus being another created being and the Father yet another created being, know that you create this false teaching because you do the work of the devil. My prayer for you is that you do not need to be a pawn of Satan, but God can deliver you from this demonic influence of moronical mormonism.
INFRACTION - INSULTING OTHERS - 2 points.

You have referred to me personally as a 'moron', and to my beliefs are 'moronical'. Since you are prepared to use the same term, I find that your use of the term 'moronical mormonism' is not directed solely at my faith (which may not be strictly 'insulting' of a person proper) and thus is also a personal insult directed at me, the implication of your many posts being that only a mormon would believe in the LDS faith.


I have never said God the Father and God the Son are different beings and of course there is no such evidence for this idea of Satan.
Apologies - mistype.

God the Father and God the Son are One Being in the Trinity. Rev. 22.1,3,4 talk about God the Father and the Lamb, which is Jesus, having one face as one Being. I love these verses in the last chapter of the last book of the Bible that sum up the Word of God and give the last warning which sadly you fail to heed. You won't be with us in the new city where God and the Lamb with be at the center.
Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

This implies that the Lamb (Christ) and the Father have different names. Here is an example that paralells the verses of chapter 22:1-4. It is the Father's name which is written in their foreheads. When we read:

Revelation 22:1-4 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

Thus this verse is capable of being interpreted as referring to either Christ or the Father. I find this verse to be highly symbolic in nature, as is most of the Book of Revelation. It was a vision, and made much use of symbolism and imagery (the tree of life etc). As such, I find that it is a highly questionable verse to rest your entire doctrine upon, which you do. You also have provided no other scripture to support this claim.

It is sad when someone tries to interpret the Bible with their head without the Holy Spirit in their spirit. The Bible tells us we shall know them by their fruit. I know you by your false fruit by your claiming this time now, which included Hitler, Stalin and Polpot as a millennial peace.
Please tell me when I have claimed that we are now in millennial peace. I have never stated such, nor is it a teaching of my church. As such, your claim to know me by this 'fruit' is completely wrong and without basis. Thus you do not know me at all.

Since you have false teaching and false works, I know you are not saved and the Holy Spirit shows the ultimate reason, because you reject the uncreatedness of the Trinity and prefer to worship a created being Satan who convinces you to believe in polytheism and impersonal social god. Only the uncreated God is all-knowing, all-seeing, and omni-present. No created being has this power.
Again you are saying that salvation is determined upon believing that God is 'uncreated'. You have yet to support this belief from scripture. YOu also ignore the teachings of Christ when state that obedience to his commandments is what salvation is based upon (Matthew 19:17, 10:22, 24:13, Mark 16:16, Luke 7:50 (maybe), Jophn 14:15 and Acts 2:21)

Matt. 24.13 says in context regarding the Jewish remnant, "he that shall endure unto the end" referring to Israel. Who is he? He is of Israel who preaches "this gospel of the kingdom" which "shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (v. 14). It is Israel that is a witness unto all the nations by its troubles it goes through as the world comes against them. Christians do not come against Israel, but love the little brother.
But this clearly is not so: Jesus is speaking to his disciples and likewise to those of the church:

Matthew 24:4-5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many

Obviously this may refer to the Jews who were still waiting for the Messiah, but the fact remains that it was said to the disciples, who were to administer the kingdom of God. Since a Christian is someone who follows Christ, and we know that anti-Christs are to rise even now, this cannot be construed as being a direction to the Jewish people. Rather, it is a warning to the disciples of the challenges that they will face. The rest of the Jesus' words follow in this pattern. He tells them that many calamities will come upon them. He says:

Matthew 24:9 [i]Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.[i/]

This statement is also delivered to his disciples. I fail to see how you can think that this is about Israel, other than speaking of the geographical area, nor do you provide any kind of explaination. Unless you are prepared to offer actual examination of the text, you cannot just keep mindlessly repeating the same mantras over and over.

There are both rewards for Christians as well as Jewish remnant to be the center of all nations. Matt. 24.13 is speaking specifically of the Jewish remnant because Matt. 24.4-31 is referring to Israel, just as Matt. 24.32ff is referring to Christians (the body of Christ: the church). The apostles were both Christians as well as a Jewish remnant for they were all Jews.
You keep saying that, but you haven't actually examined the text. You appear to just have copied it from someone else. Please actually engage the text to support your claims. Please show how it refers to Israel and the Jewish people in order to support your (now changed) claim that 'enduring to the end' is for the Jews not the Christians.

Nothing about mormon-morons other than to say...
I find you to be a rude and offensive person. A person who was truly trying to follow God would not act this way. They would act the way Jesus commanded, not trying to prove their Christian 'credentials' by repeating a unsupported claim of condemnation for allt hose who do not believe that God is 'uncreated'.

Matt. 24.4-31 The reasons were given which you did not respond to how they are words and references to Israel not Christians. Please refer to these explanations again.
I read part of that, but it is incorrect. Matthew 24:9-13 is directed to the Christian disciples. It is spoken to them alone, not to the Jewish nation. Please engage the text yourself, and not rely upon someone else's interpretation.

Since the explanations I gave for your Infractions you did not respond to specifically as inaccurate, they stand, and since you can not say the same of me other than by self-declarations on your part, your response is considered of no account. This is the reasonable thing to do to deal with your hostility. The violations of yours stand....
That is exactly what is to be expected from someone who is more concerned with their own self-righteous pride than actual humility.