4 Step Proof for God of the Bible

[Juliet]

Notice your arbitrary self-declaration when you said "just bizarre," but you give no reason for your accusation. I find this bizarre. Satan is the great accuser and mindlessly accuses without any justification whatsoever. You can see your similar traits. I am going to have to award you an Infraction for violating Board Etiquette #6. Stop trying to self-declare things without any meaningful evidence.

I really wish you'd read my entire post before responding to it, because you replied to basically an introductory paragraph that outlines how I would format my replies to you. If you'd read my entire post, you would have seen where I explained what I meant by "bizarre", which begins with the following:

The second problem has to do with how exactly you deduced that moral progress really actually inherits from form to form. You said this:

It is not possible for the universe to stretch back into infinity because of the very fact, as was shown, if you had an eternity of the past in the universe, then our existence now would have had an eternity to exist in all its previous forms, so that today there would be no sin.

The question begging is glaring, gaping, and almost taunting Theres no explanation for why a being inherits all of the moral virtues from its previous incarnations (<--- oh my, that sounds a lot like hindu reincarnation!), as opposed to each incarnation being created completely new without inheriting any of its predecessors moral characteristics.

I'd appreciate it you removed the infraction, as I clearly explained myself in my post. And I'd appreciate it if you'd read my entire post before replying to it.

[Churchwork]

I really wish you'd read my entire post before responding to it, because you replied to basically an introductory paragraph that outlines how I would format my replies to you. If you'd read my entire post, you would have seen where I explained what I meant by "bizarre", which begins with the following:

I'd appreciate it you removed the infraction, as I clearly explained myself in my post. And I'd appreciate it if you'd read my entire post before replying to it.

I have read your entire post already adequately enough, and having done so, now I am responding to it piece by piece which works better than posting one long post so you can see the specifics of where you have gone wrong.

Previously you have accused of "bizarre" so I already know what you meant, but you were unable to give any evidence to your accusation, so it is just the evil spirit in your spirit accusing. As I respond to each section of your post you will see how your accusations are false. Don't be impatient, but read along with each of my responses.

Since before you did not provide any evidence for your accusation, this is bizarre. Similarly, you will see how your response in your latest lengthy post also is bizarre too and repetition, which is why you earn the violation in Board Etiquette #6. So you can see why this Infraction and the other of your advertising are most applicable.

The second problem has to do with how exactly you deduced that moral progress really actually inherits from form to form. You said this:

It is not possible for the universe to stretch back into infinity because of the very fact, as was shown, if you had an eternity of the past in the universe, then our existence now would have had an eternity to exist in all its previous forms, so that today there would be no sin.

The question begging is glaring, gaping, and almost taunting Theres no explanation for why a being inherits all of the moral virtues from its previous incarnations (<--- oh my, that sounds a lot like hindu reincarnation!), as opposed to each incarnation being created completely new without inheriting any of its predecessors moral characteristics.

There is no problem with how there is determined the exponential progression in conscience from one instance to the next. In one example, it was acceptable to have multiple spouses. Today it is no longer the case. This is an improvement. Another improvement is no longer do people directly thrown their own children in the mouth of the god Molech. God used Israel to stop this heinous crime. However, there is still a remnant version of it through Islamic suicide mass-murderers when Islam teaches their children at the youngest of ages this is their future.

Let go of your mindless accusations of taunting and begging, for these are your own traits only. You said "theres no explanation" but the explanation was already given, since we observe it in reality. Your confusion is not witnessing the evidence and relying on your mere self-declarations. Hindu's say your soul can come back and that you can be a dog if you are too sinful. Christians don't say that. Christians know there is a cause and effect to all things. Two people procreate, then a child is born. How is this reincarnation, you don't explain. Your argument becomes mindless therefore. Each new creation is brand new and obviously does inherit something since it was caused by its predecessors. We know the cause is exponentially improving in conscience by witnessing it in reality, in every day life these past 6000 years. This is not a difficult thing to understand.

[Juliet]

I have read your entire post already adequately enough, and having done so, now I am responding to it piece by piece which works better than posting one long post so you can see the specifics of where you have gone wrong.

Previously you have accused of "bizarre" so I already know what you meant, but you were unable to give any evidence to your accusation, so it is just the evil spirit in your spirit accusing. As I respond to each section of your thread you will see how your accusations are false. Don't be impatient, but read along with each of my responses.

Since before you did not provide any evidence for your accusation, this is bizarre. Similarly, you will see how your response in your latest lengthy post also is just repetition, which is why you earn the violation in Board Etiquette #6. So you can see why this Infraction and the other on your advertising are most applicable.

I already know where this is going: I'm going to get banned for arbitrary reasons because you're too cowardly to defend your proof. As long as you can ban the critics from your forum, you never have to see or hear their arguments, so you mislead people into believing their arent any critics at all. That must be the reason why there are 100s of threads on this board, that you've started, but no one has replied to... because you systematically ban everyone from this forum; either you dont know how to moderate a forum to save your life, or you like talking to yourself, but either way its hilarious.

Believe me, if you had to adhere to the rules of your forum, you'd be banned in an instant.

In fact, you should be banned for exceeding tolerable limits of irony with this:

Satan is the great accuser and mindlessly accuses without any justification whatsoever. You can see your similar traits. I am going to have to award you an Infraction for violating Board Etiquette #6. Stop trying to self-declare things without any meaningful evidence.

My jaw dropped after reading that. I cant believe that YOU are accusing ME of self-declaring facts without evidence. Unbelievable. Jesus wasnt very fond of hypocrites, you know.

[Churchwork]

I already know where this is going: I'm going to get banned for arbitrary reasons because you're too cowardly to defend your proof. As long as you can ban the critics from your forum, you never have to see or hear their arguments, so you mislead people into believing their arent any critics at all.

If you do get banned, the reason will be because of your profusely sinning bearing false witness. You can see by the Infractions given so far which were warranted that you can easily change and not conduct yourself that way. Stop advertising your own forum for the last time. Stop making self-declarations for a 5 year old can do that.

What people should take from this is how you sin with false accusations and you like it. There are lots of posters that have posted on these forums and have given their criticism, but for them to continue with the same argument after I gave the response, and they don't respond to it, shows their belligerency, and this is how you have been caught in doing the same thing. Since you have been shown this is not like the cosmological arguments your preconceived notions are use to, then stop arguing for that they are the same. Do you see your belligerency yet?

One is not cowardly for pointing out another's mindless repetitions and your shutting their mind down. This takes courage to speak up for the truth. It should be quite reasonable for you to let go of your bad behavior. After these warnings have been given and you still don't change, that should be indication to you that you like your sin too much.

Believe me, if you had to adhere to the rules of your forum, you'd be banned in an instant. In fact, you should be banned for exceeding tolerable limits of irony with this:

Satan is the great accuser and mindlessly accuses without any justification whatsoever. You can see your similar traits. I am going to have to award you an Infraction for violating Board Etiquette #6. Stop trying to self-declare things without any meaningful evidence.

My jaw dropped after reading that. I cant believe that YOU are accusing ME of self-declaring facts without evidence. Unbelievable. Jesus wasnt very fond of hypocrites, you know.

I do adhere to the rules of my forum. If I didn't, you could show it. Moreover, you are not even banned yet. If you look at the point Infractions and how they work, you will see when you come close to being put into moderation or being banned. If when being banned, time allows for you to come out of it. But if you keep going back into a banned status, then it is reasonable for a moderator to ban you permanently, since you just don't want to change and the body of Christ should not continue to cast what is holy unto dogs forever. There is no irony in this statement given to you. You had accused falsely without basis, and I showed you your accusation which you left out. So it stands. If you are going to accuse this way at least provide something worth considering. I had said,

Notice your arbitrary self-declaration when you said "just bizarre," but you give no reason for your accusation. I find this bizarre.

My jaw did not drop when you did this, for this is how an atheist behaves. Jesus didn't even respond on an occasion because the accusation was so mindless. What can you say to such animals? Jesus is not fond of hypocrites, so he spoke firmly against the Pharisees. I try to use the same approach Jesus uses, when I speaking with you as I am led by the Holy Spirit.

You are using the word "bizarre" quite profusely, but each time you use it, you accuse falsely. Take a look at the first time you used it, "Of course, I want to note that your Step 1 makes a bizarre claim that is never substantiated or explained: that given an infinite amount of time, that humans would become infinitely righteous... the problem being that you havent shown that humans will even exist indefinitely. I think its extremely likely that we will kill each other off long before infinity. So the human species has a start, and it has an end, just like every other species that has ever existed. If the universe were eternal, we would have ceased to exist an eternity ago". Here was my response,

It is so easy to misread. I did not say an infinite amount of time would allow for righteousness, but that if having had an eternity of the past in cause and effects, we would be without sin. We are only focused here on the matter of sin, not on righteousnesses. We don't even need to show if humans will exist for eternity (though we will) in the future. All we need show is that if there was an eternity of the past of cause and effects we would be without sin, and we showed this by showing today the exponential progression of conscience these past six thousand years. It can reasonably be expected that the human race will live such an extremely long time it is close enough to approach infinity.

The human race can move out to solar system after solar system and galaxy after galaxy. Then it would be reasonable to believe that we can live for a heck of a long time and take up every last ounce of the universe for billions and billions if not trillions of years. Unlike every other creature we know, only humans have God-consciousness and a self-awareness of the degree of the soul made in God's image. So it is not reasonable to think we would have annihilated ourselves. There is no precedence for our even coming close to that point. Though Jesus said He needs to return otherwise we would have done great damage to ourselves, He is not saying ceasing to exist.

The idea we would have annihilated ourselves does not hold sway since the evidence speaks for exponential progression of our conscience these past 6000 years, which is quite the opposite of your failing idea. Notice too you provide no evidence for your assumption. Again, the difference between Christians and atheists or agnostics is we can prove our case.

You should be able to see your problem. You accuse by misunderstanding something, then I showed you how you misunderstood, then you accuse again of bizarre, but such lack of love in first erring is followed up by erring again without repentance which is bizarre in God's eyes. How many times does it take for you to begin to realize such false accusations each time stem from your own selfish misunderstanding? Therefore, you can see why your violation of the rules of this forum are worthy of an Infraction - Board Etiquette #6.

[Churchwork]

Churchwork,
There is at least one comment I want to address upfront:

I was Southern Baptist for 20 years, more or less devout. I used my time at college as a spiritual journey, in the hopes that learning more and more about religion would make me a better Christian, so I learned about my religion, learned philosophy, learned mathematics.

Understand you never were a Christian, that is to say, you never were born-again. You may have thought you were, but we realize you never were because once-saved-always-saved is a Biblical truth. Once you receive eternal life, it can never be lost. Assuming a Southern Baptist is someone who is saved, you were not even a Southern Baptist. You could never have been a better Christian if you never were a Christian. This is your logical fallacy and spiritual dullness to think so. Without the Holy Spirit, you have no ability to even begin a life in Christ. You were just operating from your own strength and self-will apart from God. This is the cause of the fall.

Shortly afterward, I figured out that "Faith" stopped being a rational justification for belief, because every religious person has faith in their own religions, but not all religious beliefs are equally plausible. Without faith, my only two rational avenues of belief were science and philosophy. Looking toward science, I couldnt find any room for god, for miracles, or the supernatural; looking toward philosophy, I couldnt even define the properties of god (well I could, but I couldnt justify them), and stripping away all of the properties of god that I couldnt justify, I was left with nothing. Atheism was just the end of the road of my spiritual journey.

Christianity never proposes the idea faith is justified unto itself, for faith is proven. We substantiate things unseen. You actually never learned this principle of abiding in the evidence because you still by faith believe in puff the magic dragon it happened all by itself or there was an eternity of the past of cause and effects when the evidence shows the contrary. Science and philosophy do not conflict with Christianity. They only conflict when they are misused by those with blind propositions such as the ones described that you have.

Since the evidence points to God creating, it would stand to reason that God could intervene in His own creation. Since the evidence points to God, we have no choice but to accept the obvious that there is the supernatural domain. You could not justify the properties of atheism or agnosticism, even though you shed a blind eye to the proofs of God of the Bible. Atheism then becomes the beginning of the road to perdition in an eternal separation from God. Hell was created just for this purpose, because God is fully aware not everyone made in God's image wants to be saved and be with Him in eternal life.

[Churchwork]

Juliet,

We ought to agree there is an exponential progression in our conscience, and this is not disputed yet. Now compare this to the proposed idea there is an eternity of the past of cause and effects for the universe which always fail in its assessment.

If there is an eternity of the past of cause and effects, then there has been an eternity before today such that anything within that eternity approaches so close to eternity that it is deemed as having an eternity to develop.

Ergo, it does not matter when man was created in the causal chain to prove that there has not been an eternity of the past. All you need know is man's creation would have approached infinity from the past and as such man would now be without sin, yet we still sin, showing that man had to have been created and there could not have been an eternity of the past.

If the position for an approximation of the eternity of the past fails then it is so close to eternity itself of the past, there could not have been an eternity of the past. To suggest otherwise would be splitting hairs to the point of fallacy by the petty self.

[Churchwork]

Churchwork,
But you're wrong, I dont like living "in sin". If you'd ever seen my posts on other forums, you'd know that I'm extremely principled and morally motivated:
- I became a vegan in '99 out of principle, in the interest of protecting animals' rights, even when theres no legal consequence for murdering them for the most trivial gains. [Removed advertising].
- [removed advertising], even when theres no legal consequence for ignoring others' misery and suffering.
- To the best of my ability, [removed advertising], even when its so much more convenient and cheap for me to save a dollar at the expense of others.

Of course you like to live in sin, that is why you don't want to be saved from those sins. To start off with your greatest sin is calling Jesus a liar, so He will make a liar out of you. You like this sin. Even in these posts, we see how you willingly shut your mind down and you do like it. Your love of sin is not hard to see.

Atheists try various techniques to exalt themselves above God like being vegans. This is very common. Eating animals is not a sin, but the cruelty in which animals are treated is a sin.

Please stop posting links to YOUR forums, including your own to generally search for something unspecifically. This is a violation of Board Etiquette #2 and since you were already advised against this, you are now just being belligerent and warrant an Infraction.

This thread is for discussion of the 4 Step Proof, not to try to self-exalt yourself which are just self-works to try to self-exalt yourself above God in vain. Let it go. Get back to the Proof.

I dont think I come off as a person who loves to live in sin, I go far far out of my way and inconvience myself to an extreme, just so I can minimize the harm I cause to feeling beings, because its the right thing to do. God has nothing to do with it.

To do the right thing is not always for the right reason. Underlying your reason as we have seen is to exalt yourself above God, so it has everything to do with God. This is called salvation by works which is dead. Since nobody can keep the law, anyone who tries to live by the law of good works will die by the law. What God is clearly showing is that all works are in vain because they are founded on self-strength and not through obedience unto God in receive eternal forgivenss from His only begotten Son and then do works that are assured in His will to His good pleasure.

[Juliet]

Please stop posting links to YOUR forums, including your own to generally search for something unspecifically. This is a violation of Board Etiquette #2 and since you were already advised against this, you are now just being belligerent and warrant an Infraction.

I had no idea it was an infraction to cite my sources in order to prove that I'm not lying to you

And no, those are not MY forums, I just post on them.

[Churchwork]

I had no idea it was an infraction to cite my sources in order to prove that I'm not lying to you

And no, those are not MY forums, I just post on them.

It is not an Infraction at all to cite sources to prove one is not lying, nor did I say this was the case. Do you see how you have falsely accused? Never be amazed by the endless accusations of the evil spirit in your spirit for they are without the love of the Lord. It is better to allow the Holy Spirit to come into your spirit and remove that evil spirit. You are not lying when you post a link to your own forums, for you truly believe in what you believe, just as Satan truly believes in what he believes. So do you see your sin of trying to promote self? This is not humble, but it centered on you as the center of the universe.

The reason it is wrong to always post links to your forums is because self-exaltation was the purpose of so doing and it is not even on topic of the 4 Step Proof of this thread. Surely you can see why it is wrong to promote self which is not at all dealing with the facts of the Proof.

You said "Also, I'm an admin/mod at [removed forum], feel free to stop by and talk to me some more if you feel like it". Whether you are the owner or not, you are the admin of the place you are advertising and most admins I know have part ownership in their own forum at the very least.

You are just trying to be couth and cunning and so you are easily exposed in your petty self which you need deliverance from.

Notice too how this has gotten so far off topic because that is what the evil spirit does with a spirit of dissension to deflect away from the evidence. You tried to deflect by differentiating between actually owning the forum and being the admin of the forum. Don't let your petty self get the better of you.

[Churchwork]

Juliet,

Recommendation: drop the continued unsupported verbiage of "bizarre" in your false claim that failed when you merely self-declared that the 4 Step Proof is cosmological only. Since it was shown this is not the case, then your continued belligerency along this line of reasoning is itself bizarre and ultimately why you got the Infraction. To continue to repeat yourself without responding to it is what Board Etiquette #6 prevents.

Repentance is in order. But since you probably can't repent you will seek to rationalize yourself somehow.

It is better to deal with the parts of the Proof instead of trying to make a false argument that it is the same thing as merely cosmological. Hope this helps you see.