The 4 Step Proof states clearly that it "does not presume God first, since notice I did not mention God first." So, DRay, you may be overassuming that the Proof would "presume the existence of God to prove the existence of God."

Interpolated predictive science is most valid on its trajectory in all walks of life. To simplify this is so, take for example, the increasing size of the sun. We know eventually one day, in about 5 billion years from now, the earth will be burnt up and be without the sea because of the increasing size of the sun. This a certainty. Scientists also agree the universe has been expanding at an exponential rate with no end in sight. The dark energy has shown to be greater in strength than dark matter and matter. The same can be said regarding the conscience towards sin. It has been exponentially increasing so we don't dare do some things we commonly did before.

Step 1 is not saying eternity leads to sinlessness, but that if you had an eternity, you would have ample time to attain sinlessness. And as Step 1 shows, by interpolating the exponential progression of man's conscience, it is evidentially and experimentally reality. This revelation agrees intuitively.

There is not a requirement for the knowledge of whether the universe is a closed or open system. The 4 Step Perfect Proof is perfect, and thus, does not rely on things unknown, only that which is known to know it is perfect as evidentially predicted.

Chaos to man is merely randomness, but to the laws of cause and effect, it still has its causes and effects. This does not change the principle of Step 1, which indicates there could not have been an eternity of the past of cause and effect, otherwise you would have attained sinlessness. Whether a system is closed or opened, space is curved or not, makes no difference in our observing our exponential progression of conscience and thus, eradication of sins.

The only required proof is observing the progression of man's conscience in the past 6000 years. If it is exponential, then it is true that eternity is more than enough time to reach sinlessness as we approach infinity. Ergo, there was not an eternity of the past of causes and effects, and man was created. Only Christ fulfills that characteristic when compared to all other gods.

Your problem, I sense by the Holy Spirit, in reading the Proof is not reading the whole Proof. Let it all sink in before overlooking something vital to the Proof. Perhaps you stopped at the first couple of sentences of each Step, for I am merely repeating what the Proof already shows evidentially.

Your next mistake is thinking sinlessness is pertaining to the Cosmos, when I am only focused on man in the Proof attaining perfection by God's grace. As was stated, "Note: this proof is not referring to nature merely reacting, but to man made in God's image, and only those men who are being perfected because they are born-again or saved. We are referring to only man, not animals, and only those men and woman who are saved." Sin first entered with Satan, so God made the earth desolate and waste in Gen. 1.2. When man was created in God's image 6000 years ago, sin soon followed again. This impacted the whole earth as well. But this time, God did not wipe out the whole earth, only locked man out of the garden and flooded the earth locally. You can take this as an exponentially increase in conscience. It is showing God will not flood the whole earth again and wipe out all creatures, but only 1/3 of the people of earth (Rev. 9.18) in the Tribulation. The Cosmos is not God's focus. God's focus is man made in His image to be in the image of His Son so that God can walk with man in the millennial kingdom and be the center of the new city in the new earth after the millennium. Even one day, the universe will dissipate, but man will continue on.

We see in God's design from the moment of God placing man in creation to the time of man's perfection it does not need an eternity. Thus, you can take the starting point of man being placed in creation as approximating the eternity of the past to show that it does not require an eternity to be perfected.

The loins of Adam that you presume Cain's wife came from is not to say a child of Adam, but included in all those in the Adamic race. This is not incest, but rather all human beings on planet earth, no matter what continent they were on were in the Adamic race. As soon as Adam was God-conscious all men and women were God-conscious. Just as when Christ died all men died and covered by His death, though not all receive His atonement. Be careful not to legalize the Scriptures. Cain came directly from the first Adamic man, but his wife may not have. We can't say because the Bible doesn't say, so it should not be an issue. You should take your own advice and not be so dogmatic. Your initial mistake premise is causing you some faulty reasoning.

There is the added point too that if you claim incestuous relations to deny exponential progression of the conscience, then you are arguing against yourself, because today, such practice is rare. This is another example of an exponential progression. You said there is no mutated genes to pass along in incestuous relationships in Adam's time if his own children procreate with each other, but that is not true. If such a thing occurs, it automatically is a defect because any procreation, whether incestuous or not, is being born into sin from the fall of Adam and Eve.

The meat-eating animals and insects stem from creation's fall instigated by Lucifer when he was cast out of 3rd heaven. When God flooded the earth in Gen. 1.2, naturally there was some residual creatures that would make up the food chain. Such sin was not completely eradicated, nor could it have been. Notice day 2 in the restoration of creation was not called a good day because up came some of those demons that were cast into the deep in Gen. 1.2, one tempting Eve. They were disembodied spirits that entered creatures, even man after man's fall. Man was protected in the Garden of Eden until his fall. What do serpents eat? Then, when man sinned even man was not protected from meat-eating creatures because man was cast out of the garden. What Gen. 1.30 is telling us was God's original design creating perfect, and the 6 days of restoration are a summary of bringing about that which was already there. Unfortunately, some negative things persisted, though it should not have been a worry to us if we remained not in sin.

The emphasis in terms of conscience is in percentages. I have already made this point in Step 1 which you overlooked. Simply, percentage-wise murders per capita are decreasing, crime per capita is decreasing. Take for example, form of punishment. Decapitation is not common now, nor is brutal forms of punishment. Incest is less prone. One spouse is the norm. Though things are getting more complicated, there is this overall civility in society that exceeds that of previous generations. The Wild West of gun stand-offs is not something we do today. It is not to say there is still not problems and horrible things that happen still, but on a per capita basis there is an improvement.

In the past the great majority were unsaved, and so it remains today. The ratio of saved to unsaved is much lower than you think then and now. The issues you raise are not a matter of worsening condition, since the things we can do now were not available in the past because the technology was not there. You would be comparing apples to oranges. Today we can still guillotine people to death, but we choose not to. Today, incest is still an option, but per capita is less the case. The fact that things are more complicated and we sin in these new scenarios is not a proper claim on things getting worse. It is merely a reflection of more complicated things. If things were this complicated 3000 years ago, man would sin much worse.

In all forms of science, cause and effect still apply. There is nothing in quantum physics that precedes with an effect without a cause. To think so is just a mistaken assumption, since it can not be shown to be the case. Where is the humility in that? All probabilities have their causes. Just because in a deck of cards there are different outcomes, does not mean there is not the same 52 cards that cause those outcomes. Similarly, there is the same molecular components, but they still must abide in the same laws of cause and effect, just as the 52 cards must abide in the shuffle. Whatever you want to call the energy source! Whether there is a perfect vacuum or not is irrelevant for even the vacuum or non-vacuum has its cause. Whatever we are confused by is no justification for deciding that it is not under some law of operation of cause and effect. How silly. After realizing Step 1 of the Proof, then see that nothing happens all by itself, which is Step 2 in the Proof. Just because you can't discern, does not mean there is not a reason; otherwise, you are pointing to yourself as the center of the universe, that what you know becomes the guiding principle. But this is not reality, for obviously there is things going on you are unaware in their cause and effect.

You'll just have to accept there is some things God does not want you to know. That would seem reasonable, if you were created by God. The Proof places the burden of the proof on you. It is a perfect Proof because it has stated a position that nothing in nature happens all by itself and that nothing is without a cause, which is backed. This is seen in trillions of examples in creation, yet not one example can be given for the idea that something can happen all by itself. Do you see therefore how the odds are against you in claiming that the quantum level can possibly happen all by itself? It is illogical to surmise that since so many examples can be given of all things having a cause and effect, that then something can happen all by itself without any evidence from you.

By your admitting there is not an infinity of the past of cause and effect, then unwittingly, you have accepted Step 1, so precede to Step 2. Notice how you contradict yourself because you said, "There is no particular reason to argue for or against a beginning or no beginning." This contradicts what you said: "The beginning point cannot be defined as back unto infinity because such a point is non-existent." You have agreed with Step 1 because you admit there is not an eternity of the past of cause and effect since you said it is "non-existent". But then you said there is no particular reason to argue for "no beginning". This is doublespeak. You do the very thing you advise against. 1 Tim. 3.8 says be "not doubletongued". Wise men do this to be couth, but it is pretentious.

In your reasoning about finite points, calculus solves your problem. You said "It is logically inconsistent to define a point infinity away because there is no way to establish such a point except perhaps in your mind." It is not necessary to give the exact date of a proposed eternity of the past by atheists and agnostics as they try to disprove God, for it is enough to know that it is not possible because we still sin. A point of eternity in calculus is taken as a spot to work from which approximates infinity. I think you should take a calculus class. If there was an eternity of the past (~) in causes and effects then you would have had an eternity to be perfected, but since you still sin proves that you were created by God, given Christ.

Just because there has always been God is not reason to believe in an infinite past of creation. That is not even logical, for God would have created at some point. Intuitively it makes no sense that there would be an eternity of the past of causes and effects just because God exists. God can exist in the eternity of the past without His creation having yet been created.

Even if there was multiple universe, the law of cause and effect still applies, no matter how confused you are by entropy, open and closed systems, vacuums, collisions, bubbles, black holes, various models, and event horizons.

God alone has made it clear and revealed to us the Proof of His existence. It is the same thing He said in the Bible, look at the mountains and the stars, and ask yourself, did you do that? No. God did it! The 4 Step Proof merely digs a little deeper into that truth in 4 steps:

1) If there was an eternity of the past of cause and effect, you would have had an eternity to be perfected, but you still sin, so therefore, you had to have been created and there was not an eternity of the past of cause and effect.

2) Nothing in nature happens all by itself. It always has a cause. Thus, God did it. God is uncreated creator.

3) Don't argue against some god, for we are speak of God uncreated. Disproving some god is not the subject of this Proof. None have been able to disprove this Proof of God in the 4 Steps.

4) In the supernatural realm: there can not be an eternity of the past of gods creating gods and supernatural causing supernatural because then you would have had an eternity of the past of cause and effect to attain sinlessness, yet you still sin. Thus, God created according to His divine providence. This brings you back to Step 1, which is God's perfect Proof revealed by the Holy Spirit. And remember, this Proof first does not assume if God exists, but through the evidence it becomes the Perfect Proof for God of the Bible.

In all of this we have seen God has proven Himself to be the cause of creation and reveals it to us intuitively in agreement with the workings of creation evidentially, predictably and intuitively.