4 Step Proof for God of the Bible

[Churchwork]

Your entire proof and arguement is assuming science argees with christian belief, which is not the case. You may want to rethink that.

Science that is true agrees with God's Word. If it were not the case you could show it, but you don't. This is then, your presupposing, without a reason, that science might not agree with the Proof, but the Proof proves science agrees with the Word.

[Sesshiro]

There is solid evidence to Darwin's Theory(Yes, I know, theories are not proven)which clearly does not agree with "with word". Even so, your proof is no more proven than Darwin's theory, which actually relies on more than intuition and twisted logic, as your proof does.

This is, of course, only one example.

[Churchwork]

There is solid evidence to Darwin's Theory(Yes, I know, theories are not proven)which clearly does not agree with "with word". Even so, your proof is no more proven than Darwin's theory, which actually relies on more than intuition and twisted logic, as your proof does.

It agrees with Gen. 2.7 in one sense regarding the "dust," as this is the meaning of the body from dust. Darwin's theory only speaks about physical causes and effects since the amoeba; it does not address what occurred before the amoeba. Nor does it deal with the distinction of man's spirit that is unique from all of creation. Darwin's theory is limited in its scope and there it will remain. This is why the Proof goes beyond evolution, and deals with the cause and effects of evolving, even before the amoeba. Your logic is twisted and your spirit's intuition is corrupted. Since you find no fault with the 4 Step Proof, why blame it? That is illogical and corrupted like that great false accuser. Self-declarations (the "banal" and "recondite") are of no interest here.

[Churchwork]

Step 1.

Since none have the ability to overturn the 4 Step Proof, sometimes I will go out and find someone's argument to show its flaw. This is one such case at the Randi Corporation, in which I am banned for no valid reason; banning me for truth given clearly is not a valid reason, for it is never a valid reason to put your head in the sand rand.

You are welcome to post your effort personally on the forum where it needs to be refuted at biblocality.com/forums for those that want to make the effort. Other forums do not qualify. Also, because of the censoring at Randi (their admitting I don't even post that much, so why ban? It is illogical). Please post my reply in this post on Randi if you like since I am not allowed to. Notice too they move the 4 Step Proof from the million dollar section so as not to have to confront the matter. This is all expected behavior for people who don’t want to accept the truth when it is staring right in front of them like a great neon sign. Let's begin.

If evolution has had infinite time to operate then we should by now be perfect. We are not perfect, therefore the Universe has not been around forever. (confused idea of evolution, but still vaguely sound reasoning)

If you admit you have confused the idea of evolution, then why do it? This is belligerence, warned not to do. And you admit you are being vague, then stop it. Don't do it. Since we have not had an eternity to be perfected you know the universe is not from an eternity of the past in cause and effects. Given the interpolation of the progression of our conscience in the past 6000 years, we know it will not take another 6000 years to reach sinless as Step 1 already said. This is scientifically proven by pure math, in conjuction with observing our conscience. So Step 1 holds true, not vaguely, but very precisely.

Step 2. Everything has a single cause. (hmmm, no real justification here, but apparently we're calling that cause "God".)

It does not say everything has a single cause, but that eveything has a cause. I find it funny that people like to put their own thought into what is being said to try to disprove something. This is lame. Since nothing in nature happens all by itself, we know that it was caused. Since everything has a cause, therefore, the cause must be that which is uncaused. The big bang or other first event was caused by that which is uncaused so that when we compare all claimed uncaused causes only God wins out because of Christ's sinless sacrifice of which only God could be sinless. Sounds reasonable. Step 2 holds true and goes unchallenged.

Step 3. God is the only thing that was not "created" by something else. (apparently by definition).

You misread Step 3. Step 3 is not saying God was the only thing NOT created by something else, but rather, that the Proof is about God who was uncreated (not created), so that if you are going to try to disprove something, it is the attempt to disprove God of the Bible who is uncreated, not something else. How illogical it would be to try to disprove something other than what the Proof is about. This has all been explained in extensive detail so the fact that you would misread it, indicates your condition in a state of obstinacy and belligerency from which only God can extricate you. Still this step holds true, of course.

Step 4. Uhm, apparently there's only one God? (justified because, uh, we're not perfect, which we would have been had there been an infinite chain of gods - What the heck does that mean?)

Step 1 and Step 2 show God, yes. Step 4 already explains itself. Step 1 deals with natural cause and effect, whereas Step 4 deals with supernatural or other etheral cause and effects, rendering the same conclusion as Step 1, since we still sin, thus we have not had an eternity of the past to reach sinlessness. This Step holds as solidly as the day it was founded.

Wow. Staggering. Where's that million bucks?
Is it really true that this is the best proof and it "has never been challenged at all since the dawn of man"?

Yes, where is the million bucks? God is perfectly proven yet the award has not been given. This bespeaks of the unethicalness and poor conscience of Randi. This is really the best Proof of God of the Bible; it is in fact an extension of what God already said: look at the mountains and the stars and ask yourself, did you do that? Amen. Still to this day the 4 Step Perfect Proof has never been challenged since the dawn of man. Praise the Lord! This is the Proof of the Power of God's Word which the 4 Step Proof agrees.

Let me be the first to challenge it since the dawn (at least today's dawn): If God is perfect, shouldn't his creation be perfect? You have said that we are flawed and sinful, shouldn't that reflect badly on our creator? I'd say God is not perfect, because apparently he/she/it is incapable of creating anything better than us. Seems a rather sad excuse for a perfect being if it can't do better.

His creation is perfect. The fact that we are made in God's image perfectly does not mean we are robots or automatons that can't fall, otherwise then that would not be a perfect creation of having a free will like God's to have the right to fall; though God does not because He is God. It would reflect badly on God if He was merely a robot manufacturer, lol. God can't create anything better than us because we are the best thing He could create in creation - we are made in His image out of His glory whom He wants to walk with those who receive His uncreated life. What glory to God that we are His best creation! And because we are made in His image He righteously according to His holiness does not treat us as instrumental value, but as intrinsic value. Ergo, He will not annihilate our souls, but for those who refuse salvation will go to eternal separation in hell, while the saved with be with God in the new city and the new earth. Praise the Lord!

In layman's terms there is lots of bad people out there, like Satan (not a person), who are self-exalting themselves separating themselves apart from God's will.

I don't know why I bother, except for mild curiosity about where you will go next in your rant. It's a bit like watching a drunk on the dance floor. You almost can't help cheering and clapping just to encourage the poor fool to do another ridiculous spin. Yay! Wave your hands again! Now jump up and do the splits...

You bother because you have a spirit of God-consciousness that intrinsically is made in God's image has a right to receive salvation. But the choice is still afforded to you, which God awaits. You do seem like a drunk dancing around God. I was like you too unsaved before I was born again so I know what you are going through. Your ridiculous spin has been shown flawed to the bone, but I do not clap for your independency and reviling against the very reason you are here. Stop projecting yourself, jumping around, for it makes you hellbound. Do you not know you are a bad person? And if you leave God no choice but to cast you into hell forever, righteously that is exactly what God will do, to keep you eternally separated from His own that He wants to be with. Your being made in His image has the full capacity to come to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive Jesus as your Lord and Savior. No one is forcing you to reject the truth.

My prayers go out to you. Listen to the music in the chat room to soften your outerman, then read the Proof again, and read my words here, that continue to show you are in error. It is so easy to see, a child can see it.

[Churchwork]

Conclusion: every argument against the Proof I have seen failed, and do you know how they fail? They require misreading something about the Proof such as what ChristineR writes, who is a critical thinker, but critically erroneous in thinking. You can waste your time reading ChristineR, but in so doing what happens? You don't get to see how she misreads the Proof if you are not discerning. From time to time, I will allow some people to post their efforts here, if their thoughts are not so dull, so you can see how it is true, the cause of error is their misreading something, thus rendering their effort unsuccessful.

[spiritplumber]

Are you claiming that your proof is inerrant? I thought that Christians believed that the Bible, and only the Bible, is inerrant.

[Churchwork]

Just because the Bible is inerrant, does not mean other things can not be inerrant, that is, without mistakes. For example 2+2 =4. This is a flawless calculation. How silly it would be if Christians believed everything had a mistake. Do you see how you misread Christians? In your heart you sin bearing false witness, overassuming which is illogical and without the love of the Lord. After hundreds of tries, no one even came close to finding fault against the Proof of God of the Bible. The Holy Spirit gave me this Proof, and it remains solid because it was founded on the Spirit of truth.

The essential 4 Steps are perfect. Therefore, for you to still reject Christ after understanding the Proof of God, is punishable with eternal separation from God, since this is in fact what you want. In fact, you never even needed to hear the Proof, for you are made in God's image already without excuse. However, the Proof is powerfully convincing since it is perfectly unchallenged, and thus quite helpful to unregenerates. In the same way, we give the Gospel to lead people to Christ.

[Churchwork]

Ultimately, where do people fail in trying to disprove the Proof, that is, where do they clam up which if they continued with the reasoning of Step 1, they would give their lives to Christ? In other words, what do they fail to look at, where do they stop short that make them dullards?

Where people stop short is taking a look at the myriad of examples of the exponential increase in progression of our conscience so that we know that it will not take another 6000 years to reach sinlessness. It is very painful for an unsaved man to look at their own conscience and reason out that indeed, it will not take the time from Adam to now again to reach sinlessness in the saved, while the unsaved are cast into perdition, an eternal separation from God, though not annihilated

So, instead what the unregenerate does is create a plethora of horrible reasonings that are intellectually dishonest, that in any class they would get an F on. Apparently the unsaved don't mind being absurdly unreasonable. They don't get embarrassed by being belligerent and obstinate, because their conscience is so utterly darkened and deadened to God they feel nothing.

There is no fear of the Lord because they believe the worse thing that could happen to them is to cease to exist, so no big deal! What they don't realize is they are in fact made in the image of God which can never be annihilated. They can never cease to exist. Therefore, they must be resurrected to GWT and cast into hell forever. God does not treat us as instrumental value, but instrinsic value because He wants to walk with us who love Him. We were created for Him. For the unsaved, death is never a way out. When the unsaved reach the Great White Throne, they will be amazed at how dumb and selfish they were to refuse God's loving and saving grace through the atonement of Jesus Christ on the cross for forgiveness of sins to bring souls into the new creation.

[pajken]

Let us assume that I accept your arguments that there exists an entity that transcends the system of cause and effect. I, like you, define this as God. My God created everything but does not provide detailed answers for every aspect of existence. Neither does he give me any specifics about his qualities or the way he created everything. To figure this out is left as a task for me. He wants me to do this by focusing on the important things like the fact that I am here and what this means. He is utterly uninterested in me finding out unverifyable details about who was married to whom 2000 years ago and things like that. My God places no responsibility on me to impose my findings on others. However, my God makes it very clear that I have a great responsibility in respecting my peers and their understanding. He also instructs me to call a spade a spade.

In leaving out the dogmata, he has effectively taken away the basis of using him as a reference when spreading ignorence and hatred, and in opressing others. This means that what he lacks in described features and history, he makes up in integrity - No one has ever started a war or justified atrocities in his name (in addition of being omnipotent, he is also quite clever!). Looking at the track-record of organised christianity, we can clearly see that we are not talking about the same deity.

In order for someone to claim that they can present a proof, what they present must not be depending of who interprets it or who is the arbitror. This is the very definition of what truth is; it is not negotiable or relative. If I say that the proof presented applies equally to my definition of what God is as it does to a traditional, christian definition, your answer cannot be: "No, and it is like that just because I say so (or God says so)". If you do that, what you are defending is a "beleif system" and not a "proven reality". This is perfectly fine - you are entitled to do so but please let us call a spade a spade...

[Churchwork]

pajken,

Why assume anything? It is proven in the Proof. And this Proof is the basis for the Word of God. God doesn't even need to be so merciful as to give this Proof because He simply wants men to believe His Word. He does not use spectacular ways to prove Himself. Jesus said, "But Abraham saith, They have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them" (Luke 16.29). The rich man perished because he had not heard the word of Moses and the Prophets, whereas Lazarus was saved because he did hear Moses and the Prophets.

Jesus said, "Beginning from Moses and all the prophets interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself" (24.27). Then he said to them, "These are my words which I spoke to you, while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms must be fulfilled." Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures, and said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead," (24.44-46).

God has already given us the Bible. Even though people sin so terribly, they will not be instantly stricken to death by lightening. God has hidden himself to such a degree that men begin to imagine there is no God. And he said unto him, "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead" (16.31).

Now you know why perdition is needed.

The Bible is a a book of spirit for our spirit. It is to God's good pleasure we discover truths in agreement with the Word. The qualities God unfolds are His righteousness (His way of doing things) and His holiness (His nature). This is you can trust. He wants you to focus on His Son, because if you look away from His Son, you are also looking away from the Father. The only way to the Father is through the Son. By focusing on His Word, He will show you why you are here. I already know why we are here, and for me personally, I know my task set before me.

Why do you have an issue to even mention whom is married to whom 2000 years ago? God does not coerce anyone, but this does not mean to not speak the truth of the Word in sharing the Gospel. You can give the Gospel to people without being imposing. If you do not believe Jesus is God, your god then is Satan, for Jesus died on the cross for you and said He is God. He did not lie. If you don't believe Him, then you would be calling Him a liar? What say you?

Jesus mentions 4 things why bad things happen to good people. This is God's integrity, His perfect way of doing things. The question is, Do you agree with Him? Do you agree that all will be recompensed?

Indeed, we are not talking about the same diety, because you accuse Jesus Christ who created you. This means you are going to hell. Do not doubt this for the Holy Spirit has already condemned you (John 3.18) because you do not believe in the only begotten Son of God. This is your choice you are allowed to have, in being made in God's image.

Your issues with Christendom is already dealt with in Matthew 13 in which God describes the sins of Christendom (the outward appearances of the kingdom of heaven today) by the unsaved tares who try to look like the saved wheat, which Jesus said, He will put his sickle to the tares. The tares are in the kingdom of heaven, but unsaved. You are outside the kingdom of heaven and unsaved.

"Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn" (Matt. 13.30).

The reapers are the angels, and so is the sickle. Otherwise, people may use this passage to justify the religious inquisitions of the Roman Catholic Church. The following parable is that of the mustard seed which represents how fat Christendom has become quite unlike the nature of this small seed, and in Rev. 17 the RCC is considered the woman who sits on the beast, that makes drunk the nations with the wine of the wrath of her fornications (14.8). So you see, Jesus is against the tares, that which you argue against as well, but you still reject Jesus Christ, which means you are still unsaved. You may even accuse Jesus of being dogmatic. You may even use a lame excuse to reject Christ by blaming the tares, even though they are unsaved also, just like you.

The most deceiving words I have ever heard people speak are those when a person says, they don't believe in religion. Jesus does not believe in religion (occult and false religion) either as we see (Luke 13.1-3). But we all need religion, that is worship. We all worship, but what do you worship? You worship self for you say you have a god, but that god is not Jesus. You can remain coy about your unascertained god, but that is an unrighteous trait of your god, for being coy and it reflects badly on you. Jesus was murdered and you call him a liar, saying he lied. This speaks volumes about your god.

Your god is a god of self. It will proclaim itself and exalt itself, even to the point of rising yourself above Jesus Christ who died on the cross for your sins, selflessly. Jesus said if you are not for Him, you are against Him. He has the power to cast you into hell, and He will do exactly that if He can not wash away your sins before Father by the precious blood if you refuse His sacrifice for you.

What your god lacked previously, he still lacks now by the way you treat the love that was given to you in Christ, like the good samaritan that was the good neighbor (Luke 10.37).

Those who verify the Proof for God of the Bible are brothers and sisters in Christ who have a renewed mind. The very definition of truth is not a panel of unsaved men for they reject the truth of the love given to them as though they murdered Jesus in their hearts. A panel is not truth, for politicians are elected falsely, for example and are often not the best person for the job.

Therefore, how are you to know if this Proof is true or not? Read it. Discover that you can find no fault with it. That's the Proof. It is very personal experience where you can not find fault, because it is true. The truth is discerned not by a particular person or panel per se, but any person who accepts the truth, and that determination ultimately falls back upon God, because He created all the laws in the natural realm and the supernatural realm, and reveals what we can or cannot know.

The reason your god does not fit the profile in the Proof is because your god did not die on the cross for your sins, selflessly. You must see that your god is too selfish to do this. Therefore, my God will remain, but yours will be destroyed as well as its followers. Your god is limited to a select few or only you alone. God of the Bible was shared by 40 writers, it is the most popular book on the planet today, and about 1 in every 3 people at least call themselves Christian.

Let's call a spade a spade as you wish: you are unsaved because you call Jesus a liar, the only sinless man that ever lived and died on the cross for your sins to give you eternal life. Behind your god is the selfish center placing you at the center of the universe in which you are under Satan. Just as Satan is going to hell, so are you. You said, lets us call a spade a spade. This is spiritual reality.