The Number of a Man
I don't think it means of an unknown "infinity" but at least 1000 years. But the New City is for eternity. You really have no case. The very argument you are trying for fails and breaks down the foundation of your beliefs. So repent and receive the time of recompense to spiritually motivate you, as intended by God, to overcome in Christ to receive this reward.Originally Posted by PeteWaldo
The Bible gives an explanation who the 7 headed beast is in scarlet with 10 hornes. It would make no sense to argue for a literal monster when the explanation is given for what it represents. But no explanation is given of the 1000 years. It is repeated 7 times literally in a row to emphasis it literally (Rev. 20.2-7). Is 7 times not enough for you? It is the millennial kingdom. Not a decade kingdom or a million years' kingdom. But the 1000 year kingdom. The largest number in the Bible is 220 million. If 1000 years meant infinity then why use a number smaller than the largest number in the Bible? Or even a million, because the Bible says there millions of angels, not a 1000 angels. Your theory just does not fit everything we have looked at. You need to let it go and not seek to change the times and the ways and God's plan.Then you believe as some in the 15th century that there will be a literal 7-headed, 10 horned scarlet beast roaming the earth?
“A woman sitting upon a scarlet-colored beast”—This beast represents the Roman Empire, for the seven heads and ten horns are merely part of it; it also points to Antichrist, because even though he is the eighth head he nevertheless possesses all the villainy of the other seven as well as the powers of the ten horns. God looks upon Antichrist as just a wild beast. Moreover, He looks upon this woman as a harlot, for she is not as irrationally vicious as a wild beast, though she abandons her rationality and acts a harlot.
The Gross Domestic Product of the European Union with its banking cartels (of 10 kings) makes your Islamic threat pale in comparison. The GDP of the Arab league GDP is about 2 billion compared to the EU which is possibly 19 billion (and more countries joining soon), and U.S.A only 14 billion. Islam can't even defend its own land with invasions of Iraq and Iran, nor move a tiny people (Israel) into the Mediterranean surrounding by Muslims with massive oil rich states. United States has a military base in their capital Saudi Arabia. Do Muslims have military bases in United States or Europe? Economics simply don't agree with your theory.
Rev. 17.3 “A woman sitting upon . . . a beast”—This speaks of the union of the Roman Church with the Roman state. How this woman has made use of the state! If a local magistrate had offended a Roman Catholic priest, the pope might have issued an interdict upon the city, prohibiting the celebration of mass and thus stirring up the people against their magistrate. Or if the Roman Church had wished for any action to be taken against some people, she would not have acted directly; instead, she would have instigated the Roman state to act. The woman’s influence is as great as that of the beast, because she rides on the beast. Read Dave Hunt's, A Woman Rides the Beast. And stop being so spiritually dumb! You should know better.
The color of the beast is red as that of the dragon is red. This indicates that this beast comes out of the dragon; therefore, it is the same as the dragon.
“Full of names of blasphemy”—This is different from the words of blasphemy. The words “names of blasphemy” mean calling oneself with the names used of God. How the Roman Caesars were accustomed to employing divine titles!
Rev. 17.4 “Purple”—This is the color adopted in the Roman Empire as the symbol of honor and power. For example, a Roman senator had a broad strip of purple on the breast, while a knight had a narrow strip of it. The emperor wore a purple robe. For the woman to be thus arrayed in purple means that she is in possession of earthly glory (note that the rich man cited in Luke 16.19 wore a robe of purple).
Purple is not a basic color since it is the combination of blue and red colors. Blue is the heavenly color, but red is the earthly (for note that the Biblical place-name Edom means red, and therefore this color denotes that which is earthly). Hence purple is the blending of heaven and earth.
Scarlet is the color of Rome—“‘I caused this inquiry to be made of an intelligent gentleman who had passed much time in Rome, without his knowing my design,’ said Barnes. ‘What would strike a stranger on visiting Rome, or what would be likely particularly to arrest his attention as remarkably there?’ And he unhesitatingly replied, ‘The scarlet color.’”*
Scarlet is the special color of the ecclesiastical cardinals as well as the popes. The cardinals are so called since their dresses, their hats, their cloaks, and their stockings are always of scarlet. In the case of the pope, even the inner lining of his cloak is scarlet; and the costume of his bodyguard is also scarlet. Whenever the pope travels, he is welcomed with decorations of scarlet color.
* Govett , op. cit., p.430.
“And decked with gold and precious stone and pearls”—All these things represent the truths of God. The Roman Church, like this woman, adorns herself with these outwardly (cf. 1 Peter 3.3, 1 Tim. 2.9); yet her real condition is most abnormal in the sight of God.
“Having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations”—This woman has no crown on her head for she is not a genuine queen, neither does she hold a staff in her hand since she is not supposed to possess any earthly authority. Instead she has in her hand a golden cup full of abominations, which speaks of her seducing power. Her victory is gained not by any direct authority, but through her seductive influence.
Islam has no seductive power. People make fun of it in their cartoons. It has no appeal as it is clearly a racist system of beliefs, entirely a non-caucasian religion, and abusive towards women
A metal was once struck by the pope in which a woman was holding in her hand a golden cup; and the caption read: “She sits upon the universe”! Unconsciously, the Roman Church acknowledges herself as that woman. Does Islam?
I have already covered Revelation 13 in which it says who the 7 heads and 10 horns are. The text explains itself. Why do you keep avoiding it?
Rev. 17.2 “With whom the kings of the earth committed fornication”—By way of explanation please consider the following:
(1) In order to please the kings of the earth, the Roman Church was willing to baptize them as long as they wished to be baptized. Thus, she auctioned away the principles of Christ and the word of God.
(2) She made the church co-extensive with the state. Christianity became the state religion of Rome. Anyone who was born a Roman could be a Christian. Normally the church was smaller than the state, but now she became equally as big.
(3) The Church joined to herself the political powers of kings and rulers. The foremost sin of fornication she can commit is to force Christianity on the people by means of the powers of kings and emperors. This was done not only by Rome but also by many other nations. The result was to make merely nominal Christians out of people (still unsaved, unregenerates).
To commit fornication with the kings of the earth is said to be, interpretively speaking, the Roman Church’s direct relationship with them. But the verse, “and they that dwell in the earth were made drunken with the wine of her fornication”, speaks of her indirect relationship with the people on earth. Wine here signifies heresies. The Romish Church has caused people on earth to lose their self-determination and to become foolish through heretical doctrines. On the one hand she has taught that by giving a little money and by making confession to a priest a person’s sin may be forgiven, but on the other hand she has failed to instruct people how they ought to live a holy life. She allows them to indulge in worldly pleasures. Indeed, this wine of her fornication has made the whole world drunk. It is quite true that without religion no one could live on earth. For this reason, the Roman Church is most palatable to the taste of the world. She disregards spiritual reality on the one hand, yet on the other uses all sorts of religious rituals to create emotional comforts as well as glowing expectation within the hearts of the people.
So has been the Church of Rome, and so shall she be revived in the future.
17.9 is the same as 13.18; except that in 13.18 it says that the mind that has wisdom can count the number of the beast, whereas in 17.9 it states that the mind of wisdom is to know the heads of the beast.
The seven heads have double meaning; they point to (1) place, and (2) person.
(1) As to place, the seven heads are seven mountains. The heads of the earth are mountains, which also give the impression of strength or power (see Num. 21.20; Jer. 22.6; Amos 1.2, 9.3).
“Rome was in John’s age usually called the seven-hilled city”, said Dr. Woodworth. Many of the ancient Roman poets in their poetry proclaimed Rome as the seven-hilled city. Someone has noticed that for about five hundred years after the time of John, the Roman poets unanimously called Rome the seven-hilled city. There was once a Roman gold metal which showed a woman sitting on seven hills. Even the coin of Emperor Vespasian, as described by Captain Smyth (Roman Coins, page 310), represented “Rome seated on seven hills; at the base Romulus and Remus suckled by the wolf; in front, the Tiber personified.” *
* Robert Govett, The Apocalypse Expounded. London: Chas. J. Thynne, 1920, p. 442.
The poet Horace once said, “The gods, who look with favour on the seven hills.” And another poet Tibullus said this: “Ye bulls, feed on herbage of the seven hills.”
Now the names of the seven hills are these: Aventine, Coelian, Esquiline, Capitoline, Palatine, Quirinal, and Viminal.
(2) As to person, these seven mountains are also seven kings, for kings are heads of the peoples. While the heads of the earth (that is, the mountains) are contemporary and continuous, the heads of the peoples are temporary and successive to one another. This double concept of head as being both of the earth and of the people may be demonstrated in one particular passage of Isaiah: “The head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin” (7.8,9).
Even so, some may still further argue that even if the seven kings may perhaps be selected on a representative basis, how is anyone to know which seven out of the twelve Caesars are to be chosen? Our answer is that we may find them out by means of the following deductions:
(1) 13.1 states: “And upon his heads names of blasphemy”; since the seven heads all have names of blasphemy, these seven kings must be self-styled gods, demanding worship.
(2) The word “fallen” in 17.10 carries with it the idea of violent death (see 2 Sam. 1.19,25,27). All seven kings do indeed meet with violent death: Julius Caesar, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero—these five kings all assumed deity for themselves; they called for their people to worship them as gods; and all five died unnaturally, either by being murdered or by committing suicide.
Domitian was the sixth one. He was present during the time of John. He too deified himself, and was later murdered.
The seventh one is he who is yet to come. The Bible does not tell us how far apart time-wise the seventh is from the sixth; only that the seventh one will continue a little while (17.10) and later be killed (17.10; 13.3,14).
The interval between the sixth and the seventh one is filled by the reign of religious Rome. From the first to the sixth, also during the seventh and the eighth, political Rome is in power. But now it is currently religious Rome in place of political Rome. Political Rome, the banking cartel of 10 kings, and 7 representative European states, will be the power of political Rome and the end of days. A massive collapse in the U.S. dollar with its 50+ billion dollars of unfunded liabilities will turn it into a basket case, giving the throne to Europe.
After Zedekiah was taken captive into Babylon there was no king in Israel. A long interval passed before Christ was born. Likewise, after the destruction of political Rome there will be an interval before Antichrist appears, re-emergence of political Rome again.
The whole world will be well prepared for the arrival of Antichrist. Hence, as soon as he appears on the scene he will be able to do much during the three and a half years. The seventh king will have already prepared for the eighth one.
And that precision has nothing to do with Islam.Indeed it is. That's when we find Daniel's figures of lion, bear and leopard "beast" kingdoms, we recognize them right away when we see John's composite leopard-bear-lion beast kingdom, for example.
"4" is the number of the world. God apportions the world dominion to four kingdoms: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. Not Islam. Your obsession and focus is diverted onto the wrong party. The materials representing world power in Nebuchadnezzar’s image are gold, silver, brass and iron (Dan. 2). The world kingdoms in God’s eyes are like four beasts (Dan. 7). 4 as the number of the world may also be seen in this number’s relationships with the world. The world has four seasons: spring, summer, fall and winter. It has four corners: east, west, south and north (Num. 2).
It has four basic elements: earth, air, water and fire. It has four winds (Rev. 7.1). The river which flowed out of the earth’s paradise—the garden of Eden—was parted and became four heads (Gen. 2.10-14). The living creatures which represent the created world are four in number (Rev. 4.6). In Ezekiel we are told that the cherubim, which are the same as the living creatures, have four faces: that of the lion, ox, man, and eagle; and they have also four wings (ch. 1). Mankind on earth is described in a foursome: peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues (Rev. 17.15). The heart conditions of men, according to the parable of the sower as spoken by the Lord Jesus, are of four kinds (Matt. 13.3-9, 18-23). The tribulations over the past 2000 years which come as judgment upon the world are also four in number: war, famine, pestilence and earthquake (Matt. 24.6,7 AV; cf. Luke 21 and Rev. 6). Those which bear witness to the Lord Jesus are the four Gospels which reveal the four aspects of Christ. At the height of men’s sin, the four soldiers divided among themselves the garments of the Lord Jesus (John 19.23). The altar set up for men is "foursquare" with four horns (Ex. 27.1,2). The fourth of the Ten Commandments is the first of the remaining ones that touch upon the things of the world (Ex. 20). The fourth clause in the so-called Lord’s Prayer is also that which commences to deal with matters pertaining to this earth (Matt. 6.9-13). The things God created on the fourth day were to rule over the days and nights on earth. The fourth book of the Bible, Numbers, relates the experience of the wilderness which is a type of the world.
4 comes from 3 plus 1; and 3 is the foundation of 4. As 3 represents God, so 4 represents the created ones who depend on the Creator. 4 is the first number which allows of simple division, even as 2 is the number which divides it. It is therefore the symbol of weakness. The created have really nothing of which to boast.
You are accuses God's people!Indeed, like two "olive trees" (good and wild of Romans) representing the two "witnesses".
11.3-12 “TWO WITNESSES”
Who are these two witnesses? Some interpret them as Christian nations, some as certain sects, and some as the gospel preached by Christians. All these interpretations are unsatisfactory because (1) since these two witnesses wear sackcloth, they can have no reference to a group or groups; (2) the miracles they perform as recorded in 11.5-6 are self-defensive and result in killing, and are therefore unlike the miracles performed during the gospel age which are saving in nature; and (3) the dead bodies mentioned in 11.9 cannot point to any group (e.g. good and bad Romans) and they certainly cannot typify the gospel.
These two witnesses are two personal witnesses, since (1) witnessing is done by man (Acts 1.8), (2) they are clothed in sackcloth, (3) they are slain, (4) they have their dead bodies, and (5) they are prophets.
Who are they? Some interpreters say they are none other than Elijah and Moses. They maintain that what is mentioned in 11.6 about the power to shut the heaven from raining is an allusion to something that had actually been done by Elijah; and that the power to turn waters into blood is an allusion to what had been done by Moses. But such an interpretation is based only on what the two men do. According to Hebrews 9, “it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this cometh judgment” (v.27). Moses was dead once, how then could he die again? Moses should therefore not be included.
11.3 “My two witnesses”—The way it is presented here seems to imply that everyone who reads this passage should know who these two men are. The words in 11.4 are quoted from Zechariah 4.2,3. “Standing” signifies living. When a person is tired, he sits down; when sick, he lies down; and when dead, he falls down. But these two men are standing. In the entire Bible only two men are recorded as not having died; they are Enoch and Elijah. These two men alone stand before the Lord. (And incidentally, it is said in the apocryphal writings of John that Enoch and Elijah will come.)
“Two witnesses”—This is the number prescribed in the Scriptures for witnessing (cf. Deut. 17.6, 19.15; Matt. 18.16).
“Sackcloth” conveys the thought of bitterness. The New Testament does not command us to wear sackcloth, but in the Old Testament there was such a command (Is. 22.12; Joel 1.13).
What they preached is judgment, not glad tidings. Enoch preached judgment once before (Jude 14-15), and Elijah was a prophet who killed (see 1 Kings 18.40 and 2 Kings 1.10,12). They will yet preach the woeful news, not the glad tidings.
They shall prophesy during the three and a half years of the Great Tribulation.
11.4 “Olive trees” give oil. “Candlesticks” uplift light. Here then are oil and light. These two witnesses stood at the time of the prophet Zechariah (Zech. 4.11-14), they were standing at the time of John’s writing the book of Revelation, and they are still standing in our own day; that it is to say, Enoch and Elijah have not yet died as the Two Witnesses.
These two witnesses are “the sons of oil” (Zech. 4.14 Darby), for they are filled with the Holy Spirit.
“The Lord of the earth”—The Jews had their kingdom. God is the Lord of the heaven and the earth (Gen. 14.22). After the destruction of the Jewish nation God was always addressed as the God of heaven (Dan. 2.18,37,44). Now He is again called the Lord of the earth, for God has returned to the position of the Old Covenant period and has once more recognized the Jews as a nation.
What kind of persons are these two men? Perhaps they are the ones who sell oil to the five foolish virgins (Matt. 25.1-2, 8-10a), or possibly they are those who render a little help to those who will be persecuted during the Great Tribulation (Dan. 11.34).
11.5 These two men oppose the whole wide world, including Antichrist. “And if any man shall desire to hurt them . . . must he be killed”, thus showing that these two men know even the evil thoughts of the heart. They testify with force, thereby proving they are not preaching the gospel. They perform miracles in order to protect themselves and help the Jews and the remaining Christians during the period of the Great Tribulation. They do not aim at saving souls.
11.6 “Rain” expresses the grace of God. For God “sendeth rain on the just and the unjust” (Matt. 5.45). A not raining suggests that God has withdrawn His grace.
11.7 “The beast that cometh up out of the abyss”—This points to Antichrist. The wild beast is mentioned 36 times in this book of Revelation. Thirty-six is six times six, the number of man. The very name of “wild beast” reveals his nature and work. (The Lamb is mentioned 28 times in this book. Twenty-eight is seven times four. This name expresses the Lord’s nature and work as well as denotes His perfect relationships with God and men.)
This beast comes out of the abyss. In 13.1 it is noted that the beast comes up out of the sea, thus confirming that the abyss is beneath the sea. Knowing the 10 dimensions of string theory, we know this is possible.
The abyss is where the devils live. To come out of the abyss presupposes a resuscitation. According to 17.8 we know that this beast has died and is to be resuscitated. The 7th individual was here a short while, has died, now th 8th reigns as a miraculous recovery for all the world to sea, and he is one of the 5 Caesars (Nero revived-the most evil man in history), making up all the evil of those 5 Caesars.
The two witnesses have powers to kill as they wish, but they cannot kill the beast since the latter is a resuscitated beast.
11.8 “The great city”—Human eyes see it as Jerusalem; but according to its significance “spiritually” it “is called Sodom” (a city noted for its crimes) “and Egypt” (that which opposes God-Rome). Yet historically it remains as the place where the Lord was crucified. Islam did not exist in his day. Islam is quite insignificant even though they may have some nominal inciteful role to play such as being the holders of most of the world's oil an 911. They are on the whole, insignificant, because of their lack of power even though they are sitting on so much oil. It is because their morality doesn't come shrouded but is openly divisive, offensive, and therefore will never muster much appeal to deceive like religious Rome and political Rome has been able to, especially now political Rome, printing money like never before and a one world bank. The Antichrist will arise from a mix of these enterprises. Perhaps Tony Blair is setting the stage with his efforts to make a one world religion. And some indications lead to Barack Hussein Obama as the Antichrist and Oprah Winfrey as the False Prophet.
The manner of death of these two witnesses is perhaps similar to the Lord’s crucifixion, because in the original it says: “where also their Lord was crucified”—the word “also” seems to emphasize the thought that they die in the same way as their Lord once died. This coincides with the words in Matthew 23.34-35 that some prophets will be killed and crucified.
11.9 “And from among the peoples”—Representatives come from all peoples and nations to view the scene, for they all deem these two men to be public enemies. When they hear that these two men are killed, they come to see it for themselves. In accordance with Joel 3.1-2 and Zechariah 12.3 and 14.2 peoples from all over the earth will gather at Jerusalem.
“Three days and a half’—This number stands between three days and four days. They are neither incorruptible (just as was the Lord, in His three days of burial—John 2.19; Acts 2.30-31) nor decayed (as was Lazarus, being four days in the grave—John 11.39). And it is John alone who records the three days, the four days, and now these three days and a half.
There is a difference between a symbol you have to try to interpret and one that immediately follows with an explanation what that symbol represents. If the text says Symbol A then says Symbol A means B, then there is no reason for you to try to make A mean C. Therefore, your fulfillments violates the text, and you are proven to be a false teacher.But you yourself called them "symbols". Do you prefer the term "symbolic language"? Unless you are expecting two witnesses to be literal candlesticks, and a literal scarlet beast to roam the earth, you understand the language of dreams to be figurative. That certainly doesn't preclude that through the figurative language we can find literal fulfillment of these prophesies, because that's their purpose.
You said "you are actually suggesting your own unregenerate nature" because I accept Jesus said He is returning in Person to reign for the 1000 years (Zech. 14.4, Acts 1.11, Jude 14,15, Rev. 1.7, chapter 19.11-16, 20.2-7)? I don't mind so much someone accusing me like this because they just expose themselves as being unregenerate. It is when someone says, don't accuse of being an unregenerate, then flip right around with their doubletongue and accuse of this themselves. Shame on you! Be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8).If you are going to make an accusation you need to quote me.
Remind you of anyone? So much so you deny the Antichrist that is to come to reign in political Rome, the revived Roman empire of the European Economic Union.2 Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
Why have you not read the description of the first beast that was in response to the above link, why the Antichrist is a person? Should I assume you agree since you don't specifically challenge any of it?Further demonstrating your disinterest in how scripture describes the term. Perhaps also why my question regarding where a singular "The" "Antichrist" comes from in light of the related verses, remains unanswered.
http://biblocality.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6481&postcount=18
"Many antichrists," "whosoever," "every" and "many deceivers" are terms about antichrists. But this is not mutually exclusive of the "Antichrist." In fact, with so many antichrists, only then will the "Antichrist" (1 John 2.18) be revealed. I am not sure how you overlooked this. You didn't put Antichrist in bold. Clearly the Antichrist is a person, and he is the number of man, revived Neron Kaisar in Aramaic which equals 666 (Nero Caesar).
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