Lying, Deceptive, Selfish (LDS) Mormon Doug Yancey

[Churchwork]

It is better for you Doug to speak with your own words, because none of the hundreds of articles you cut and past arbitrarily that you send me actually address my points. Plus, it is very impersonal like the impersonability of God being a social collective of created beings.

There is some basic things that ought to be agreed on. Reason with me.

1) In the eternity of the past there was not multiple gods, since you would have to ask who or where did this god or that god come from, which is a never ending question, just like atheists believe there is an eternity of the past of causes and effects. Therefore, there must be one source of one substance in the eternity of the past. We know atheists believe ultimately in Lucifer, and by comparison, then so would mormons. God the Father was never a man, and He was not created from another being. You should reject this reincarnated effect. He is uncreated.

2) The Son of God also has to be uncreated, otherwise you are receiving an atonement from a created being which is less than the God I believe in, so my God trumps your God. You lose and I win in Christ.

3) It stands to reason that if God the Father is uncreated and God the Son is uncreated, so too is God the Spirit uncreated since God the Spirit is the life of the Father and the Son. And if all 3 Persons of the Godhead (the Trinity) are thus co-equal and co-inherent, then the Triune Being must be all of one substance.

Ultimately what you are doing is shutting your mind down to proper reasoning, because you want to go to hell and get as many people to go there with you. By your desire to want to go to hell, you have to shut your mind down to this proper reasoning. :wacko:

[evan]

Let's examine some of these, shall we?

There is some basic things that ought to be agreed on. Reason with me.

1) In the eternity of the past there was not multiple gods, since you would have to ask who or where did this god or that god come from, which is a never ending question, just like atheists believe there is an eternity of the past of causes and effects. Therefore, there must be one source of one substance in the eternity of the past. We know atheists believe ultimately in Lucifer, and by comparison, then so would mormons. God the Father was never a man, and He was not created from another being. You should reject this reincarnated effect. He is uncreated.

As far as reasoning goes, you face the same problem: where did God come from? He is 'uncreated'? He must have come from somewhere. You really can't use your argument against the LDS when current Christian theology faces a comparable *problem*.

2) The Son of God also has to be uncreated, otherwise you are receiving an atonement from a created being which is less than the God I believe in, so my God trumps your God. You lose and I win in Christ.

I am not a particularly good arguer/debater, but this is the worst argument I have seen. "I think my God is better than yours so you lose"

????????

3) It stands to reason that if God the Father is uncreated and God the Son is uncreated, so too is God the Spirit uncreated since God the Spirit is the life of the Father and the Son. And if all 3 Persons of the Godhead (the Trinity) are thus co-equal and co-inherent, then the Triune Being must be all of one substance.

It most certainly does not stand to reason that God is 'uncreated'. Neither does it stand to reason that the Son is uncreated. And even if those things are true, it certainly does not make sense that they are the same 'substance'. They can be co-equal without sharing any 'substance'.

[Churchwork]

Christians do not face the mormon and atheist problem of wanting an eternity of the past of cause and effects of gods creating gods, because we observe what God says. God says look at the mountains and the stars to know God did it, and that since nothing in nature happens all by itself, therefore, the uncreated must have created. The created could not have been the ultimate creator.

It is the faith that can't accept the uncreated and uncaused created that is an evidence your beliefs reveal your unsalvation. The Holy Spirit reveals this fact as the proof that since obviously an uncreated God would have more power than a created god, this is why you lose and have hell waiting for you. Your beliefs are a reflection of your unsalvation, so God says we shall know them by their fruit. You don't want to be saved by the uncreated Savior, but want a lesser salvation so you can remain in sin through a created being.

Further, it remains true that since there can only be one uncreated in the eternity of the past and not multiple uncreated beings, since you would have to ask where these other beings come from, then you know that the uncreated nature of the Triune Godhead requires all 3 Persons of the Trinity to be uncreated and of one substance as Christianity has always taught. You are not a Christian, but someone who gets off on your cultic idea that puffs you up. You would need to learn the difference between your soul and spirit to allow God to break this bondage you are under.

The Holy Spirit has shown me in no uncertain terms through this explanation and revelation is why you are going to hell. This is a shield of protection against you as you aim to deceive in your ego. You are a bad person who wants to remain in sin and has found a way to rationalize it to yourself. God values so much the preservation of His Word against such things as polytheism.

What I have said here was already said. Since it needs be repeated, it shows that you don't care to address it. In other words, you are stuck on your assumed stance of the atheist idea of beings creating beings in the eternity of the past as a moron-mormon. I also believe you know you are willingly deceiving, but don't care. You do have a spirit of God-consciousness so you are aware of your uncreated creator God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit, but you don't care as you choose to alter His very Being as Satan tries to exalt himself too. Your conscience is dead to God that you presume darkness in Christianity the past 1800 years after the cross even though Jesus said "It is finished". That is to say, all the power of the cross by the Holy Spirit is available to all so as to maintain spiritual Christianity, even though there may be many faults in greater Christendom. What you try to teach is a diabolical alteration which is cunning and couth, ugly and unholy.

Satan lives by self-declarations, and that is how you live. Your self-declaration is that God is different beings who are created beings, so you have no personal relationship with the uncreated creator. How sad for you.

[Churchwork]

We don't 'in_sert into God different beings'. We believe there are three separate and distinct divine Persons within the one Godhead. They are composed of the same type of substance, but are not the same Being.

This is why you are not a Christian, because the Church in Scripture or in subsequent Creeds, never taught God was several beings. Don't you know many evil things develop from claiming multiple uncreated beings? Scripture only ever allows for one uncreated Being, and logically, only one uncreated Being exists, otherwise, you have to ask where these others come from. By uncreated means one Being always existing. Think about it. If many uncreated beings always existed, how could you be any more polytheistic? That's worse than Hinduism. Mormonism is the most polytheistic religion man has ever created to reject God. You do in_sert into God different beings. You said they "are not the same Being," then you in_sert into God different beings, which contradicts what you said, you "don't 'in_sert into God different beings'." The Bible says, be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8). Your don't have a regenerated conscience in Christ to realize how wrong this is and mistaken assumption of multiple uncreated beings. Who is to say the religion down the block with its different number of uncreated beings is the right one? There is no standard. The only standard is one uncreated Being, God Almighty, the One True God. For eternity you are going to live this lie unless you give your life to Christ.

I'm already in the 'body of Christ'. It's called the Church of Jesus Christ.

You mean the Mormon church. There is nothing in God's word Jesus would go to North America. You're delusional. The Church wherever two or three are gathered in His name have never called themselves Mormons. So you are not a member of the body of Christ. Just know that you have not blasphemed the Holy Spirit, that you yet can come to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive the Lord Jesus as your Savior.

I don't believe in having one's seat 'locked up' in heaven. Do you believe you can be saved and live any way you want? See: 1Peter 4:17-18.

That is a strange faith as Dave Hunt says, that you could be saved, lose salvation tomorrow, gain it back the next day, lose it next week and next month get saved again. Would God be so fickle? Don't you have faith to believe in God who can once-save-always-saved by His infinite foreknowledge? What you may not understand that once-saved a person can lose rewards in reigning with Christ during the 1000 years, which is a very long time, but he doesn't forfeit his place as a pillar in the New City and New Earth. In the eternity of the future in the New City rewards are done away.

"For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" (1 Pet. 4.17) This verse doesn't say you can lose eternal life if you are born-again. It would though apply to loss of rewards for the millennial kingdom. You're not persuaded. "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 8.38-39). 1 Pet. 4.18 confirms this: "And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" To be "scarcely saved" is still saved, just like the 5 unwise virgins who did not fill their vessels with the oil of the Holy Spirit still had oil in their lamps, but they were not allowed to enter the marriage feast of the millennial kingdom.

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand" (John 10.27-29).

Are you sure He is talking about one's life on earth rather than at the Day of Judgement? Do you believe you are saved in your sins? See: Rev 20:12-15

They shall never perish does not refer to earthly things, but eternity. Judgement seat for believers before the 1000 years commences is not to determine whether you are saved or not, but to enact discipline and rewards for the saved. A Christian is saved in Christ, not our sins. Our sins can cause us to lose rewards, but not life. Salvation is not by works, lest any man should boast. You're an arrogant man who thinks he can save himself, lose his salvation and work to get it back. Don't you know you are a sinner? A sinner can't save himself, nor can he lose salvation once-received.

"And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even] the lake of fire. And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20.12-15).

Great White Throne takes place after the 1000 years. One perishes because of his evil works (not because of lack of good works). Mormonism is evil for it alters God into different beings. And those who are saved are saved because their names are written in the book of life ('locked up' and foreknown), again, not because of their good works. You can't save yourself. All religions of the world are based on works just like Mormonism. Only Christianity is different: "Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2.9).

I and all Mormons don't rely on our 'works' to save us. We rely on the grace of God to fulfill the covenant we make with Him. That means we commit to be His disciple and He promises to 'bring us home' to His Father's house. So, nothing we can do--without His grace--will 'save' us. But, everything we do can affect our salvation if we break our covenant. See: Matt 7:21, 19:17.

You're contradicting yourself. You said, "Mormons don't rely on our 'works' to save us," but you do for you said, "everything we do can affect our salvation" to even lose eternal life. If God chose you for initial salvation, He does it for life; if you can lose salvation, it's because you never had it to begin with, since to lose salvation is based on works. We are "justified by faith in Christ, and not by works: for by works shall no flesh be justified" (Gal. 2.16). Works can neither get you saved, nor can they cause you to lose salvation. This is true salvation.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matt. 7.21-22).

Matthew 7.21 lays down the general conditions for entering the kingdom of heaven. 7.22 illustrates the special exclusion from the kingdom. And 7.23 tells of the special consequence thereof for such people.

The word "knew" in verse 23 is the past tense for the same Greek word translated "know" in Romans 7.15. In the original it means to recognize or to understand. "I never knew you" may therefore be translated as "I never recognized you"—which means "I never recognized what you did as right."

Now the people in question here are definitely Christians, for the following reasons:

(1) The context in which these words of Jesus are found is the so-called Sermon on the Mount, which, as we have continually seen, is primarily spoken to believers.
(2) The teaching of the mount from beginning to end never instructs us as to how we can be saved since it is obviously addressed to those who are already saved.
(3) This small section from verse 21 to verse 23 does not deal with the question of faith; rather, it treats of the matter of conduct. We know we are saved through faith and not by work. Hence what is said here has nothing do with eternal perdition of the unsaved.
(4) "In that day" (v.22)—What day is "that day"? These words refer to the day of judgment at the judgment-seat of Christ before which the saved alone will appear. This is not the judgment before the Great White Throne.
(5) The people in question here have called on the name of the Lord; therefore they are the Lord’s.
(6) Notice the works they perform: they prophesy by the name of the Lord, and by the same Name they cast out demons and do many mighty works.

"That day" is a specific term in the Bible. As today is the day of man (see 1 Cor. 4.3: "or of man’s judgment" which in the original is "of man’s day") when man judges, so "that day" is the day of the judgment-seat of Christ when all the saved—and no one but the saved—shall be judged (see 2 Tim. 1.12,18; 4.8). Obviously, Paul is not talking about losing eternal life, but receiving or losing rewards.

v.22 "Many" shall not enter the kingdom of heaven. "Lord, Lord . . ."—They call on His name once again.

"Prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works"—All these are considered to be great gifts in the church: to prophesy is to do the work of a prophet; to cast out demons is to bring in the kingdom of heaven; and to do mighty works is to exercise the power of the age to come. Those who perform such acts specifically cite these things because they think by these things they are most qualified to enter the kingdom. Yet they are missing something unbeknownst to them, which God will reveal at the Bema Judgement Seat of Christ.

v.23 The word "confess" in Matthew 10.32-33 points to the saved ones. If we do not confess the Lord before men now we will be denied the glory of the kingdom of heaven. Similarly, the passage here rendered as "then will I profess unto them, I never knew you" is better to be translated as "I never recognized or approved of you"; and the reason for His disapproval is given in the words "ye that work iniquity"—wherein "iniquity" in Greek actually means "lawlessness" and means not working according to the rules of the kingdom of heaven.

"Depart from me" simply denotes that they have no part in the glory, a glory which is very different from what is mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 1.9.

Hence the general conditions for entering the kingdom of heaven (millennial reign with Christ) are a being saved plus doing the will of God.

The Holy Spirit who dwells in man is the Person of the Holy Spirit, and therefore He is there to rule over man. But the Holy Spirit that falls upon man is without personality, and hence it obeys man: "The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets" (1 Cor. 14.32). The Holy Spirit dwells only in the saved ones, but His power may fall upon the unsaved such as Balaam.

It is possible to be lawless even in prophesying, in casting out demons, and in doing mighty works. There is the danger of not doing the will of God in all these things. We need to ask the Lord to deliver us from the iniquity of the sanctuary (see Num. 18.1). Let us realize that in the last days these same things shall be greatly increased.

"And he said unto him, Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? One there is who is good: but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments" (Matt. 19.17).

v.17 The Lord answers the young man according to the latter’s background and status. Neither does He tacitly acknowledge here that doing some good thing will obtain eternal life (for to one who believes that doing a good thing is the way to eternal life, the most natural answer would be to say, Why not do good? But this is not the reply given by the Lord.).

"One there is who is good"—The Lord helps the young man to know himself. Only one is good (God), and there is none else.

"Keep the commandments"—for "he that doeth them shall live in them" (Gal. 3.12). Unfortunately there is no one who keeps the commandments and thus may be justified before God. If one stumbles on the smallest point of the law, he is guilty of all the laws (James 2.10). Law was originally a ministration of the Lord God, yet it has become the ministration of death; so says Paul (2 Cor. 3.7-9). Just as the dumb cannot ask how to sing hymns to please God, nor can the cripple ask how to dance so as to be welcomed, even so, no man is able to ask how to do good so as to gain eternal life. Nevertheless, sinners today keep on asking this question. Remind you of anyone?

Our 'assurance' of salvation is dependent on our staying in the covenant of grace and our obedience (Heb. 5:9). That does not mean we 'earn' our salvation. It just means we must continue to have faith in Christ. Faith is a principle of action. It implies more than just a simple, passive belief. We cannot be save without repentance. See: Matt 25:31-46

The Lord Jesus (John 5.24), Paul (Romans 8.38-39), and John (1 John 5.11-13) have no qualms about offering absolute, objective assurance of salvation. Furthermore, works are never included as a requirement of assurance. So why do you?

Once saved, forever saved. "Having been made perfect, he became unto all them that obey him the author of eternal salvation" (Heb. 5.9). The salvation which the Lord has accomplished for us is eternal, therefore our salvation is also eternal. Your faith is the kind of faith with the option not to have tomorrow, whereas the Christian faith is a choice for forever. Yours is selfish, with an out-clause so you did not genuinely enter in. You still held some reservation for self. Initial salvation requires your repentance and true authentic belief in Christ, but after initial salvation, repentance or no repentance, work or now work, can't cause you to lose salvation. Faith is not a principle of action, but a principle of choice. Works is a principle of action. A choice to believe in the One True God is not passive, but vital for salvation, for faith and works contrasted as opposites: "By grace are ye saved, through faith;...not of works" (Eph. 2.8-9); "But to him that worketh not, but believeth..." (Rom. 4.5); so, Christ guarantees, "him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (John 6.37). Satan will cast you out, but not God. Works afterward are not passive, but active towards receiving the reward of reigning with Christ during the 1000 years. Repentance is a change of mind, not a work either. Therefore, if you repent and come to the cross as a helpless sinner the Lord Jesus will surely save you and give you eternal life which can never be lost. That is the God you can have too. Matt. 25.31-46 pertains to the dividing of the nations, not about initial salvation and eternal life.

As regards the security of our salvation—that is to say, we will never perish once we are saved—we can find at least twelve different areas of evidence in the Scriptures.

(1) According to God’s will—God foreordained us to be His children and to have sonship given to us, yet not according to our conditions but according to the good pleasure of His will (Eph. 1.5). He saves us and calls us with a holy calling, yet not according to our works but according to His own purpose (2 Tim. 1.9). For our conditions may change, but God’s will never changes (Heb. 6.17). In eternity He has formed a will which wills to save us that none of us should be lost (John 6.39). How then can we be saved and later be unsaved? Our salvation is forever secured in the unchangeable will of God.

(2) According to God’s election—God’s choosing us is neither accidental nor temporary. He has chosen us in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1.4). His election is not according to our works but according to His will (Rom. 9.11). For we have not chosen the Lord; the Lord has chosen us (John 15.16). Just as the Lord never changes, so His election knows no repentance (Rom. 11.29). Hence our salvation is eternally secured and will never be moved.

(3) According to God’s love—Our salvation is based on God’s love for us and not our love for God (1 John 4.10). Our love changes easily, but God’s love is deeper than a mother’s (Is. 49.15). It is eternal (Jer. 31.1), to the end (John 13.1), and changeless. This everlasting love of God has made His salvation eternally secured to us.

(4) According to God’s grace—We are saved, not by ourselves nor by our own works but by the grace of God (Eph. 2.8,9). We ourselves with our works often change, but the grace of God is firm and sure. For this reason our salvation is eternally secured. Furthermore, this saving grace is given to us in Christ Jesus even before the foundation of the world (2 Tim. 1.9), and we have our redemption according to the riches of God’s grace (Eph. 1.7). His grace is always sufficient and more than sufficient. His grace is able to bear all our burdens, supply all our needs, and save us to the uttermost.

(5) According to God’s righteousness—God saves us not only by His love and grace but also according to His righteousness. He cannot help but save us, because the Lord Jesus on our behalf has already suffered on the cross the righteous judgment of God and has satisfied God’s righteous demands. Therefore, if God will not save us He will fall into unrighteousness. In saving us He reveals that He is righteous (Rom. 1.16,17), for righteousness is the foundation of His throne (Ps. 89.14). His righteousness is immovable. Since our justification is founded on the righteousness of God, it is eternal and immovable.

(6) According to God’s covenant—God has made a covenant with us to save us (Matt. 26.28; Heb. 8.8-12), and a covenant can suffer no alteration (Ps. 89.34). And hence our salvation cannot be changed.

(7) According to God’s power—"My Father who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand" (John 10.29). God is supreme and His power is the greatest; none can snatch us out of His mighty hand. So that according to His power our salvation is also secured.

(8) According to God’s life—God’s life is eternal. God has given this eternal life to us that we may become His children and have an everlasting life relationship with Him (John 3.16; 1 John 3.1). Life relationship can never be dissolved. His eternal life in us will not allow us to perish (John 10.28).

(9) According to God himself—There is no variation nor shadow of turning with God (James 1.17; Mal. 3.6). How can our salvation ever waver then, since it comes from such a God?

(10) According to the redemption of Christ—The Lord has become to us the author of eternal salvation (Heb. 5.9). We are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all (Heb. 10.14). Since what the Lord has done is eternal, our salvation must also be eternal. Because of this, "who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us" (Rom. 8.34). None can abrogate the redemption which the Lord through His death and resurrection has accomplished for us. None can condemn us for our sins. Hence our salvation is eternally secured.

(11) According to the power of Christ—"No one shall snatch them out of my hand" (John 10.28). The Lord and God are one. He is equal with God, therefore His hand is as strong as God’s hand. No one can snatch us out of His hand. His almighty hand makes our salvation eternally secured.

(12) According to the promise of Christ—"Him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (John 6.37). The Lord has promised that He will never cast out any of us who come to Him. Such a promise of His likewise guarantees our eternal salvation.

What is your definition of faith? Is your faith alive or dead without works? See: Luke 6:46-49, John 5:28-29.

Faith is belief and good works flow from true faith, whereas dead works flow from what you said you received, a "passive" faith.

"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Every one that cometh unto me, and heareth my words, and doeth them, I will show you to whom he is like: he is like a man building a house, who digged and went deep, and laid a foundation upon the rock: and when a flood arose, the stream brake against that house, and could not shake it: because it had been well builded. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that built a house upon the earth without a foundation; against which the stream brake, and straightway it fell in; and the ruin of that house was great" (Luke 6.46-49).

Compare to Matt. 7.24-27. The Lord adopts the use of parables here to reinforce what has been spoken before. The problem cited in this verse is not a matter of hearing but doing. We have already heard; whether or not we do depends on each individual. "These words"—Broadly speaking, they have reference to the entire teaching on the mount. In a more restricted sense, they refer to the emphasis previously laid down above of doing the will of God. "Rock" signifies doing the will of God. Here it does not point to the Lord himself. Foolish does not mean "wicked"; it instead agrees with the thought of the foolish virgins spoken of in Matthew 25.2. Neither does it refer to the unsaved, since the entire subject here is building. The rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house—not a beating upon the person but only a beating upon his work is in view here. Hence he must be a saved person.

Who built his house upon the rock—the man in question thus built, not because he was good but because he was wise. This is in parallel with the wise virgins cited in Matthew 25.2. Every one therefore that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them—that is, a doing according to the Lord’s words. The foolish person is not one who does nothing, since he too goes and builds; but he does things according to his own will instead of according to God’s words. One pathetic trait among believers is their inclination to imitate the world.

What is the difference between the wise and the foolish? They both spend the same time and they are all engaged in building. Yet what a pity that the foolish builds upon the sand. The wise, though, has his eyes on the judgment-seat of Christ. Rain and floods and winds speak of great tribulation. The rain comes from above, and so it beats upon the head. The winds blow in all directions, and the floods strike against the foundation. Rain" refers to the works of the evil spirits, winds allude to the leadings of the evil spirits (see Eph. 4.14), and floods signify the power of the evil spirits.

It would be quite strange to read this passage as threatening a person could lose eternal life.

"Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment" (John. 5.28-29).

I am quite certain you misunderstood the passage. It is not saying those who have done good get saved even though they may not believe in Christ or because they did good they can remain saved. Naturally, the unsaved will do evil and the saved will be constrained by the Holy Spirit from doing evil. It's shallow to make this verse about losing salvation. How dull. Try to understand what this verse is actually talking about.

This passage is about those who think they can escape judgment. Some may try to conceive a way to escape judgment. It is a rather foolish thought, but some may try. Why not hide in hades, after death, to avoid judgment? "They that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment" (John 5.29). If, by hiding in hades, one is not resurrected, will he not escape judgment? But this is altogether useless. Listen to the word of God: "Though they dig into Sheol, thence shall my hand take them" (Amos 9.2a; cf. Ps. 139.8). Do you think you can hide in hades and seal up its entrance, thus escaping judgment? The hand of God will take you out of it. No matter how deep you dig into Sheol, His hand will remove you.

There is another group of people, possibly modem scientists or aviators, who fancy they can fly into space and escape the judgment. But this is also futile. Listen: "Though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down" (Amos 9.2b). You may climb up, but God will bring you down. It is hard for you to climb up, but it is easy for Him to bring you down.

Perhaps some will consider fleeing to the mountains and the forests where they cannot be found. Yet the word of God says: "Though they hide themselves in the top of Carmel, I will search and take them out thence" (Amos 9.3a). You speculate that by hiding in the depth of the mountains or among the many trees you may escape judgment, but God will search and take you out.

Others might say that if neither hades nor heaven nor the mountains can hide them, why not try the bottom of the sea? Here, too, the word of God warns: "Though they be hid from my sight in the bottom of the sea, thence will I command the serpent, and it shall bite them" (Amos 9.3b). As you hide in the bottom of the sea, you will be bitten by a serpent and find no escape.

The above are various pictorial representations of your futile efforts. In hades, in heaven, in the mountains, or at the bottom of the sea you may escape the hand of men, but you cannot escape the hand of God. According to the Bible, there is absolutely no way of escape. You can't even escape salvation if it were possible if you were truly saved.

So, your 'grace' is cheap? See: John 8:31, Acts 10:34-35.

It's God's grace, not my grace. Why do you make salvation your grace? My assurance is in His promise and keeping power, not in my efforts or performance. Whereas rewards is based on my efforts and performance of abiding in the works God has set for me.

"Jesus therefore said to those Jews that had believed him, If ye abide in my word, then are ye truly my disciples" (John 8.31).

My Apologetics Study Bible notes say, "Much of the belief attested to in verse 30 was probably superficial." So they were not saved to begin with. You'll find lots of people saying they believed in Jesus, coming so close to Him, but then turning back for another gospel. The audience was narrowing: "The Jews responded to Him, 'Aren't we right in saying that You're a Samaritan and have a demon?'" (v.48).

"And Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is acceptable to him" (Acts 10.34-35).

This verse is about God showing no partiality. So why in_sert that a person can lose salvation? This verse is referring to "every nation" not to individual salvation. Is your grace cheap? Apparently, because it is your grace, not God's grace. Your grace says you can lose salvation. God's grace says once-saved-always-saved. That is a salvation you can trust.

So, you believe once you are 'saved', you no longer have any choice to reject it? I don't believe the Bible teaches such a notion. See: Romans 2:6-13, 1Tim 4:16, Heb 12:14.

The choice to believe in Christ is a choice for forever, not for a hundred years or a thousand years or a million years, but for forever. You didn't address these verses. He said, "I give unto them my sheep eternal life; and they shall never perish" (John 10.28). "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Pet. 1.3-5).

"Who will render to every man according to his works: to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek; but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek: for there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law; for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified" (Rom. 2.6-13).

The Bible mentions obedience as well as faith, for we are not only sinners but additionally sons of disobedience. What Romans 10.16 means by "believed our report" in Isaiah 53.1 is "obeyed the glad tidings" (Darby). The nature of believing the gospel is obeying it. "Rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus" (2 Thess. 1.8). Those who do not obey are the rebellious: "Unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth . . . shall be wrath and indignation" (Rom. 2.8). The disobedient are the rebellious ones. "Seeing ye have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth" (1 Peter 1.22). This clearly indicates that purification is by obedience to the truth. Faith is obedience.

Believers would best be called "obeyers," for they are to be subject to the authority of the Lord as well as to believe in Him. After Paul had been enlightened he asked: "What shall I do, Lord?" (Acts 22.10) He not only believed, he in addition submitted to the Lord. His repentance was caused both by understanding grace and by obedience to authority. When he was moved by the Holy Spirit to see the authority of the gospel, he addressed Jesus as Lord.

God calls us not only to receive His life through faith but also to maintain His authority through obedience. He counsels us who are in the church to obey the authorities He has established—in home, school, society, and church—as well as to obey His direct authority. It is not necessary to point out specifically which person you should obey. It simply means that whenever you encounter God’s authority, directly or indirectly, you should learn obedience.

Many are able to hearken to and obey only a certain person. This shows that they have not seen authority. It is vain to obey man; it is authority that we must obey. To those who know authority, even a slight disobedience will make them feel that they have been rebellious. But those who have not seen authority have no idea how rebellious they are. Before being enlightened, Paul kicked against the goads without realizing what he was doing. After enlightenment, however, the first thing which happens is that the eyes of Paul are opened to see authority, and this seeing continues to increase thereafter. Though Paul met only a little brother by the name of Ananias, he never questioned what kind of man Ananias was—whether learned or illiterate—because he was not looking at man. Paul recognized that Ananias was sent by God and he accordingly subjected himself to that delegated authority. How easy it is to obey after one has learned authority.

We should not assume a person can lose salvation by this passage. That is in_serting into the text. Paul is not contradicting his previous statements that salvation comes by faith alone: "For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith" (Rom. 1.16,17). Our good deeds are a grateful response. Again, you can take these words to mean those who are saved can lose rewards, but not life; and those who are not saved no matter what good works they do, they still will not be saved because they do not live by faith.

"Take heed to thyself, and to thy teaching. Continue in these things; for in doing this thou shalt save both thyself and them that hear thee" (1 Tim. 4.16).

There are different aspects of salvation: salvation of new birth and salvation of overcoming. The salvation of overcoming is referred to here.

"Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man shall see the Lord" (Heb. 12.14).

The sanctified position before God. Every Christian, at the time he receives the Lord, not only has had his sins forgiven and has become justified but also has been sanctified before God. God is holy; without holiness no man can see Him, commune with Him, or pray before Him. As righteousness is God’s way of doing things, so holiness is His nature. Sins are forgiven according to righteousness. Without forgiveness of sins no one can be saved. And without holiness none may see God (Heb. 12.14). Holiness is not a matter relating to sins, it relates to our being set apart to God. Because every Christian is sanctified in Christ, he therefore may come to God.

Let us see that the fruit of sanctification is not only a matter of our conduct but also a matter of our experience in nearness to and communion with God. "Follow after . . . sanctification without which no man shall see the Lord" (Heb. 12.14). No doubt we are sanctified positionally and we may boldly enter the holiest place so as to have intimate fellowship with God, but if we do not stand on the sanctified position with a true heart in fullness of faith, we seemingly will not be able to touch Him. Hence we must seek after holiness, since without it no man can see the Lord.

"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who will also do it" (1 Thess. 5.23,24).

Rev. 22.4 "And they shall see his face"—In the millennial kingdom only the overcomers shall see God’s face (Heb. 12.14), since to see the face of God constantly is a special privilege.

"For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day" (2 Tim. 1.12).

'Keep' them against their will? See: Matt 10:22.

"For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day" (2 Tim. 1.12).

They are kept in that initial choice, for their choice was a choice for eternity. Christians were saved by that choice through faith, whereas your faith has an out-clause. You can lose your faith, but Christians can never lose our faith.

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved" (Matt. 10.22).

Again, this passage refers to the overcomers salvation, not losing eternal life.

"Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete [perfect] it until the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1.6). "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 8.38-39).

Except for the free will of the one so 'loved'.

Where does it say "except" your will? It doesn't say that. Just know your free will choice was did not enter into a relationship with God but the evil spirit, because you have an out-clause whereas Christians don't. Our choice was for forever.

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God...

Led against their will?

It was their will, my will, but not your will, because remember, you said yours was "passive." Such passivity can easily be manipulated, tangled and confused by the evil spirit.

Ye have received the Spirit of adoption.... The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ" (Rom. 8.14-17). "If we are faithless, He remains faithful" (2 Tim. 2.13).

If one is 'faithless', that means one has no faith in Christ. How can one be 'saved' without faith? And, how can faith be 'alive' (not dead) without works? See: James 2:19-26, 1Peter 1:3-5.

God has the desire to do. God is not only able to perform that which He has promised, He also has the heart to do so. Having the ability but not the desire will make a promise null and void. But God has both the power and the heart to do what He promises: "he is faithful that promised" (Heb. 10.23); "if we are faithless, he abideth faithful; for he cannot deny himself" (2 Tim. 2.13). As to what He has promised, God will perform to the letter towards His children. He does what He says. Otherwise, it would affect His deity, because God cannot deny himself. He is forever trustworthy. Should His promise be vain, we naturally could not commit ourselves and our affairs to Him. But God is faithful. He never swallows His word: He has promised, and where, then, is there any room for doubt?

Please do therefore learn this lesson today. You yourself are not the source of faith. Never ask yourself, "Do I have faith?", "Is my faith adequate?" These questions are useless. The more you ask, the less faith you have. Please go to God and ask Him what He has promised on this or that matter. Inquire of Him: Has Your love for me changed? Will You repent concerning Your word? Do You have the power to perform Your promise? Are You trustworthy? Are You dependable? If you think more upon God, your faith will spontaneously rise up without the need of manufacturing it. Do always remember this, that you yourself are not faithful, nor is your own faith trustworthy. God alone is the source of faith! And He is faithful!

Even a Christian who if it were possible to have no good works, yet still had faith, would still be saved, but lose rewards. His faith would certainly lose rewards. His faith would be dead like the faith of the unsaved, but since God is the one who gave Him the gift of faith, even if he is faithless, God will preserve Him in the faith.

"Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar? Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect; and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God. Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. And in like manner was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works, in that she received the messengers, and sent them out another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead" (James 2.19-26).

This justification here is not the justification for new birth, but is the justification unto rewards. We ought not to assume more than that. As we are justified by faith for initial salvation, we are justified by works for rewards of the millennial kingdom.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Pet. 1.3-5).

"Guarded through faith," not through works.

He cannot deny Himself" (2 Tim. 2.13). "But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God" (John 1.12).

Yes! One must make a *choice* to believe and receive. Choice implies action. It requires repentance and discipleship. Without that, how can one be saved? See: Matt 5:20, 1John 2:17, Rev 22:14.

Choice does not imply action, for action is a work. Choice implies belief. First you must believe before you can act. To repent is not a work either, but it is part of believing. How can you believe if you don't repent? It does not require discipleship, for discipleship is a work. Discipleship is required for rewards, not for initial salvation. You can be saved in a false salvation if you require these works, but what does God say? "By grace are ye saved, through faith;...not of works" (Eph. 2.8-9); "But to him that worketh not, but believeth..." (Rom. 4.5).

"For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 5.20).

Righteous is unto rewards, not to gain or maintain eternal life. None are righteous but God. There are 3 aspects of the kingdom of heaven. The aspect referred to hear is the reigning in the 1000 years. The New City and the New Earth come after that.

God places two considerations before men: first, He presents eternal life to sinners; and second, He presents the kingdom to all who already have eternal life. All who believe have eternal life; nevertheless, as Jesus said to His believing disciples, "Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 5.20). The Lord Jesus also declared this: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 7.21). Thus we are shown that to have eternal life one need only believe, but to enter the kingdom one is required to fulfill another condition.

Soon after a person is saved he is set by God on a specific course that lies ahead of him. The entire life of a Christian can be likened to running a race. Yet this is not a racing towards the goal of eternal life. It does not mean that he who wins this race will have as his prize eternal life; on the contrary, only the person who has eternal life is qualified to run. No, the result of this race is that some of the participants are to be crowned while others will not be (see 1 Cor. 9.24-25).

When you teach non-OSAS you are hard in your own grace which is not God's grace.

"And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever" (1 John 2.17).

What is the will of God? Believe on Christ. And once in Christ work for His good pleasure. All dead works will be burnt up; that is not to say, because of some work you do you could lose eternal life if you were saved.

"Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right to come to the tree of life, and my enter in by the gates into the city" (Rev. 22.14).

All believers in Christ wash their robes. It is just a matter of timing when they do. So effectively, this verse is saying all those who repent and believe in Christ.

How could one have eternal life without choosing, accepting, believing and repenting? If an adulterer accepts salvation, does that mean he can continue commiting adultery?

The problem is not that one has eternal life by choosing to repent, accept and believe to receive Christ, but men who would say that is not enough, that you must also include works for initial salvation or works to keep that initial salvation, otherwise they will go to Hell. What love is this? This is how man controls men, like Joseph Smith tried, but God's ways are higher than his ways. What makes you think an adulterer who claims to have giving his life to Christ actually did when he still commits adultery? You need a conscience in Christ to see this.

"These things I write to you, who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know you have eternal life" (1 John 5.13). How could a man know he had eternal life, passed out of death into life, if he had not been justified by faith which could never be lost? He couldn't.

What you are telling me is you don't know if your salvation is secure. Indeed, it is not! That can't be a good feeling Satan instills.

I would never presume to speak authoritatively on Catholicism or any other religious faith or tradition--except my own. If I want to learn about Catholicism, I will go to a priest for correct information. Why don't you try that sometimes?

I have, and they have reported the same teaching you have that you can lose salvation after new birth. By slight of hand you are trying to get out of the fact you have the same false teaching of salvation by works as the Roman Church-religious Rome! The great harlot that sits on the beast of nations that makes them drunk with the wine of the wrath of her fornications (Rev. 14.8). How is your cult any different?

"He wants you to keep His commandments. To practice discipleship. To repent of sins. To strive for perfection (Matt 5:48), although knowing we cannot achieve such in this life. But, through the grace of Christ, we can accomplish all things--eventually. We must endure to the end (Matt 10:22, 24:13 & Mark 13:13).

We don't endure to the end because we could lose salvation tomorrow. We endure to the end because there is the matter of rewards and loss of rewards of the coming millennial kingdom. Of course, if you alter God's word and you don't believe in the millennial reign of Christ on earth, and are all busy thinking about what planet you are going to rule over, that would explain some of your confusion. Christians never taught planet rulership. You're deceived as deceived can be. See Matt. 10.22, 24.13, Mark 13.13. To "endureth to the end" is to receive that reward, just as Paul thought; never did he think he could lose eternal life. So you, as a Mormon, must have a false faith.

What's the rush?

You'll understand when you get older.

I don't work for Satan, but you do. God prefers you learn to wait on the Lord, stop trying to move ahead of Him. That was the problem at the fall of Adam and Eve. It is not that God didn't want them to have knowledge, but all in good time. Patience. "Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev. 3.10).

The problem has nothing to do with age, but the fact that you don't want to be saved God's way. Like William Lane Craig you work so hard for your salvation? Why? Because you don't really know if you are saved. See my video I did here explain this.

Wait on the Lord and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Indeed, I do! But, I thought you don't believe in subjective feelings?

Why is waiting on the Lord and following the leading of the Holy Spirit subjective feelings? The Holy Spirit works in man's spirit; there is where you follow His leading, not in your outerman's feelings. Only then will what you received in your spirit communicate to the feelings and mind and will the renewal of your soul. I believe you wait on that "passive" will for the evil spirit to enter and guide in you Mormonism because you worship multiple uncreated gods, which is logistically impossible. As you said before, you will is "passive" for entrance and strongholds to be gained by that nefarious working of Satan. There can only be one uncreated Creator. Neither were you intelligence in eternity past. You did not always exist. God created you. God is the Intelligent Designer.

An unsaved person's views seem to take on the particular predisposition of his flesh. The holder of the non-OSAS view naturally tends to be strong-willed, but the Bible says not by the will of man nor the will of the flesh is one saved. "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1.13).

Jesus taught: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved (Mark 16:16).

But you don't believeth, for you worship multiple uncreated beings, not one uncreated Being, God of the Bible. Christians and ancient Israel were monotheist, not tritheist or polytheist. Therefore, we can conclude confidently, you were baptized by the evil spirit and entered into Satanic grace by Joseph Smith who if he didn't lie to you was certainly deceived and wanted to worship that evil spirit because that was his choice to try to alter God's word. He failed.

An unsaved person's views seem to take on the particular predisposition of his flesh. The holder of the non-OSAS view naturally tends to be strong-willed, but the Bible says not by the will of man nor the will of the flesh is one saved. "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1.13).

This becomes your point of pride. But it is not spiritual reality. We are saved by faith, not by works, lest any man should boast. You're boasting of your will, even though it is under "passivity." You have a strong will to will works, but it is passive, because this is not God's will to passively receive salvation, but you must receive Christ for life, not for a few years later with the possibility you could lose it after. That is not true salvation.

[Churchwork]

I have assurance of my salvation--if I stay within the gospel covenant provided by the grace of Jesus.

Yes, that is the Roman Church's teaching of non-OSAS, but it is false because Christ guarantees, "him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (John 6.37).

There is only one redeemer of mankind, and that is Jesus Christ. So, these verses are saying that there is only one savior, Jesus Christ.

God is not only saying He is Redeemer but One Being: "I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me...besides me there is no saviour" (Is. 43.9-10). "Is there a God besides me? yea, there is no Rock; I know not any" (Is. 44.8).

I believe in repentance, therefore I know I am a sinner.

But your repentance is not to Christ but to Satan, because Satan tells you that you can lose salvation tomorrow and that you always existed or that God is gods. God is One Being. You were created. There was a time before when you never existed. If you are saved, you will be resurrected for the New City in the New Earth with all God's sons and daughters. If you are not saved, you will go to Hell. If you overcome in Christ, you will return to reign with Him on Earth for the 1000 years: "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" (Rev. 20.4). If you are fleshly Christian, you will lose that reward in outer darkness: "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matt. 25.30); once that time has passed, then you will be ready for the New City.

Where do you get the notion that Mormons believe we can 'save' ourselves?

I realize from your perspective you don't think you are saving yourself, but from a conscience in Christ quickened by the Holy Spirit that Christians have, you show yourself trying to save yourself, because salvation is by works, that is to say, if your works are not up to par, you can lose salvation. But the Bible says eternal life is not by works: "by grace are ye saved, through faith;...not of works" (Eph. 2.8-9); "But to him that worketh not, but believeth..." (Rom. 4.5).

You fail to mention verse 22 in that same chapter.

The temptation "you will become just like God" (Gen. 3.5) did not happen at the fall nor is it ever going to happen. That is not the same thing as verse 22: "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever." To know good and evil is not the same thing to become like God in the way the serpent suggested. The kind that the serpent proposed was more than just knowing good and evil. Unless and "except ye repent" of all to do with Mormonism, "ye shall all likewise perish" (Luke 13.5).

Same old problems that separates you from Christians:

1) Neither can you be born-again by works nor lose the new life by works. You can lose rewards, but you can't lose life. Therefore, your salvation is false, because it is by works. Works are for overcoming, not to determine eternal life. You don't have the comfort Christians have, because you can never really know if you will end up unsaved, thus you really don't know if you are saved now. Naturally, a false salvation will be unsettling. That's why non-OSASers work so hard for their salvation, because they really don't know. They are trying to compensate for the regeneration of the spirit.

2) Claiming God is gods. There is only One uncreated Creator. If you want another being in the Godhead, you will have to find it unequivocally in Scripture, otherwise, the humble position to take without reading into the text is God is One uncreated Being. By being humble and repenting before God, unassuming, He will receive you into His fold.

3) Claiming you always existed in spirit form or intelligence is impossible since you are a created being. Scripture never allows for you always existing. Moreover, the universe was created, so the only One that was always existing was God, not man.

4) Denying the millennial kingdom (Rev. 20.2-7), which is accountability for believers, the time of recompense. And you deny the New City and New Earth for other worlds.

5) Claiming Jesus is the brother of the Devil. God has no brother. God is uncreated. Satan use to be Lucifer and Lucifer is a created being. Jesus is uncreated with the Father because they are One Being with the Spirit.

[Churchwork]

Re: http://en.fairmormon.org/Jesus_Christ_is_the_brother_of_Satan

"As the Apostle Paul wrote, God is the Father of all. That means that all beings were created by God and are His spirit children. Christ, however, was the only begotten in the flesh, and we worship Him as the Son of God and the Savior of mankind." (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, "Answering Media Questions About Jesus and Satan," Press release: 12 December 2007.)

If Jesus was created by God, then He is not God. Yet Mormons call Jesus God. Isn't that a contradiction? Christians believe that Jesus is both uncreated God and the Son of God. Son of God is the form Jesus took on when He entered His creation, born of a virgin. The Bible says, "Though he was God, he did not demand and cling to his rights as God" (Phil. 2.6 NLT) or "who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped" (ASV). To be equal with God is to be God, not created.

I was begotten of the flesh as all humans are, so how is Jesus who is a created being according to Mormonism, the only begotten of the flesh? He is the only begotten of the flesh in Christianity because He is uncreated in the Trinity, entering into creation, but I don't see how Jesus can be the only begotten in the flesh, for humans are born in the flesh too. The Father was not begotten of the flesh, nor was the Spirit. Only the Son. And I really don't consider myself a spirit child, for I am not a spirit. I am a "living soul" with a spirit and body (Gen. 2.7; Heb. 4.12;1 Thess. 5.23). Angels are spirits.

There is nothing but logical fallacies in Mormonism. You can read the Bible without the Holy Spirit and make it into anything you like. Obviously, that is why there are so many denomination, sects and cults.

[Churchwork]

A Mormon said in the eternity of the past "the raw components of our spirit existed eternally and we were formed there"; but God said, "I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me...besides me there is no saviour. Is there a God besides me? yea, there is no Rock; I know not any" (Is. 43.9-10; 44.8). When making the claim you were intelligence always existing alongside God you share in His everlasting uncreatedness. Therefore, you are making yourself a god beside God which violates what God just said, there are no gods beside Him.

"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god" (Is. 44.6).

The serpent lied: "God knows that your eyes will be opened when you eat it. You will become just like God" (Gen. 3.5).

"Son of man, give the prince of Tyre this message from the Sovereign LORD: In your great pride you claim, `I am a god! I sit on a divine throne in the heart of the sea.' But you are only a man and not a god, though you boast that you are like a god." (Ez. 28.2)

[Churchwork]

Have you ever heard of Arminianism?

Yes, Jacob Arminius believed in once-saved-always-saved. It would be a strange faith if you were saved, then lost your salvation tomorrow, got back next Thursday, then lost it again in three months only to retrieve several years later. God is not fickle. When He gives His life its life eternal. He has the foreknowledge to do this. Unless of course you don't believe in God with this ability, who can say you are saved? The Roman Church teaches what you teach that you can lose salvation, but true salvation can never be lost as the Bible says. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand" (John 10.27-29), just like Arminius taught. He said, never once did he profess a person could lose salvation. Scriptures allows for no exceptions of our will or otherwise. Eternal life received and kept is not by works, lest any man should boast: ""Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2.9). We are "justified by faith in Christ, and not by works: for by works shall no flesh be justified" (Gal. 2.16).

Unrepented sin can cause one to lose his or her salvation. The Bible is very clear that our behavior (repentance, obedience, works) determines whether we are saved.

Nope. Whoever believes on Him shall be judged no more, because he "hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (John 5.24). How can this happen more than once? It is a one-time, once-for-all transaction. Obedience and works are for rewards or loss of rewards. A sinner can not lose the initial salvation he received just as he can't save himself.

Paul said obedience is necessary (Heb 5:9). That implies action--repentance, righteous endeavor. And, baptism (Mark 16:16). And, repentance (2Cor 7:10). Enduring (Mark 13:13). Works (James 2:14).

But Paul never said lack of these things can make you go to Hell. Since works are unto rewards, one would lose the reigning in the kingdom, not eternal life.

Paul insisted that salvation could be lost: If we sin wilfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries . . . . Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Hebrews 10:26-29)

This passage does not say a person can lose salvation.

What is meant by "no more a sacrifice for sins"? Some people will say: "If I sin willfully after I have known the truth, I will not be saved. It is true that God has caused His Son to bear my sins and die for me that I might be saved through believing in His Son; but if I sin willfully, then according to Hebrews 10.26 there does not remain anymore sacrifice for sins, and consequently I will not be saved. Furthermore, the next verse states that there remains ‘a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries’ (v.27). So if I sin willfully, I can only wait for two things: one is judgment, the other is the fire which shall devour the adversaries, which is hell or perdition." In the view of these people this passage of the Scriptures is directed at Christians; so that if a Christian sins willfully he cannot be saved. Let us now see whether "if we sin wilfully" has reference to Christians or to another class of people. We shall also want to see if "sin wilfully" points to ordinary sin or rather to some specific sin.

According to the statement of the Bible, those people who "sin wilfully after that [they] have received the knowledge of the truth" have "a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries". Therefore, these cannot be that class of persons, mentioned in Hebrews 6, "who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift". The "truth" mentioned here is that truth spoken of in the first part of Hebrews 10, which is the redemption accomplished once and for all by the Lord Jesus Christ. Such people know of the death of the Lord Jesus, of His shed blood and broken body. They even know that they can enter the holy place boldly through the blood of the Lord Jesus and be accepted by God, and that the sacrifice for sins has been offered once and for all, so that the work of redemption is forever completed. Now if these people should sin willfully after they have had such knowledge of the truth as this, then there remains no more a sacrifice for sins.

We need to see that if the above verses could be applied to a Christian, that is, if a Christian is tempted to lie and steal, to frequent places he ought not to go, or do things he knows he should not do, and is thereby considered as sinning willfully and is therefore not saved, who then shall be saved? Even Paul and Peter would probably not qualify for being saved! Has not Paul the believer confessed: "For not what I would, that do I practise; but what I hate, that I do. . . . For the good which I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I practise. . . . Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?" (Rom. 7.15,19,24) Does not Paul practice the evil he knows he should not do and does not do the good he knows he should do? And has not the believing Peter denied the Lord thrice before a maid? Does he not know that he is lying and that lying is sin? From all this we can know that the phrase "sin wilfully" must mean something special and not just committing a sin that one knows.

Yet this can be proven even in another way. To do so, we need to read the text of this Scripture passage all in one breath from verse 26 through 29:

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries. A man that hath set at nought Moses’ law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

What is really meant by "sin wilfully" in verse 26? It points to the three things in verse 29; namely, (1) trodden underfoot the Son of God, (2) counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified as an unholy thing, and (3) done despite to the Spirit of grace. In sum, it means to reject the gospel of salvation. He has heard the word of God which states that Jesus is the Son of God, yet he answers by saying that Jesus is a bastard. He has heard God’s word which says that Jesus has shed His blood for the remission of sins and that His blood is most precious—even as the blood of a pure spotless lamb, but he replies by saying that the death of Jesus is a martyr’s death and that the blood Jesus shed is common just like anybody else’s. He has heard the word of God which says that the Holy Spirit brings repentance and gives eternal life, nevertheless he retorts by declaring that he does not believe God will impart to him what Jesus has accomplished nor does he believe in new birth. Because of this kind of reaction, the Bible’s word is that there remains to him no more sacrifice for sins.

What is meant by "there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins"? "No more" indicates that there once was. We must pay particular attention to this word "more". In this connection please note the following passages of the Scriptures:

"Who needeth not daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people: for this he did once for all, when he offered up himself" (Heb. 7.27).

"Nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption" (Heb. 9.12).

"Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place year by year with blood not his own; else must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once at the end of the ages hath he been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. . . . So Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many . . ." (Heb. 9.25-28).

"Else would they not have ceased to be offered? because the worshippers, having been once cleansed, would have had no more consciousness of sins" (Heb. 10.2).

"By which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest indeed standeth day by day ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, the which can never take away sins: but he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God" (Heb. 10.10-12).

Why do all the above passages indicate that the Lord Jesus has not offered himself many times but only once? It is because, beginning from Chapter 7, the book of Hebrews dwells on the comparison between the sacrifice which the Lord Jesus has offered and the sacrifices offered in the Old Testament period. The Lord Jesus Christ has offered himself only once and has forever accomplished eternal redemption; whereas the sacrifices mentioned in the Old Testament were in the form of bulls and goats which were offered year by year. Individually speaking, anyone living in the dispensation of the Old Testament had to bring and offer a bullock or a goat or a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons as a sin-offering each time he sinned. Corporately speaking, the whole congregation of Israel had to offer yearly, on the day of atonement, the sin-offering.

Why must they offer bulls and goats as sacrifices year after year? Because the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sins. People had to offer sacrifice for the sins of this year as well as the sins of last year. Only Jesus Christ through the eternal Spirit has offered himself to God, and by so doing has obtained eternal redemption so that He has perfected forever us who are sanctified (Heb. 9.14,12; 10.14).

Consequently, Hebrews 10 follows this up by saying that anyone who has heard the truth and yet has sinned willfully has rejected the Holy Spirit as well as the blood of the Son of God. For such a person who has despised the Son of God there remains no more sacrifice for sins. For people in the Old Testament time, if they missed the opportunity for atonement one year they still might have it the following year. But today, if any man should reject Jesus Christ, there does not remain anymore sacrifice for sins, since even the sin-offering of the Old Testament dispensation has passed and is therefore no longer effective. Whoever has the knowledge of the truth but rejects it has no more sacrifice for sins available to him. For "in none other is there salvation" (Acts 4.12). God had done His uttermost when He sent the Lord Jesus Christ to this world to accomplish the work of redemption so that we might be saved. There is therefore nothing more He can add. Accordingly, the Bible tells us that if any man should sin willfully, that is, reject the gospel which he has heard and known, it is finished and done with for him. His end is nothing but a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.

Hebrews 6.1-8 says that the end of the class of people therein mentioned is "nigh to a curse"; but Hebrews 10.26-29 says that the result for its group of people is to be burned with the "fire which shall devour the adversaries"; how then can this latter group ever point to Christians? This passage can mean none but those who have knowingly rejected the gospel, therefore there is no other salvation. Otherwise, why should the word "more" be used in saying "there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins"? Why should the word "once" be used repeatedly in the preceding verses? By joining these words within their context, we can easily discern the meaning of the words "there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins".

If we are 'chosen' and 'elected' without our choosing or repentance, why is there much preaching, commanding and instructing in the New Testament?

We are chosen by repenting and believing in Christ, but God doesn't change His mind: "For God's gifts and his call can never be withdrawn" (Rom. 11.29).

You're a Calvinist.

No, I don't believe in Calvinism. I believe in OSAS Arminian.

For this reason our salvation is eternally secured-You mean forced against our will?

No. It really is a choice for eternity. An authentic choice. Not a choice with a get-out clause.

Even if we don't accept it? Are we 'elected' and have no say in the matter?

No. That's Calvinism. If you don't accept it, after claiming you were saved, in reality, you were never saved to begin with. You keep talking about how you can lose salvation. It makes one think you are not saved to begin with. Where you have inserted to passages you can lose salvation if you are born-again, the verses don't actually say that.

Through our own free will. That is the classic debate between Calvinism and Arminianism. It has been going on since about the 4th Century. Calvinists are in the minority in this debate. Mormons are not part of it. We get our soteriology from God through His prophets--ancient and modern. That's the real issue.

You've actually misconstrued this debate. The debate is not about whether you can lose salvation because Arminians are OSAS. Rather, the debate is about how to get saved in the first place.

Our salvation must also be eternal-It is--once we receive it. The big question that has been debated for hundreds of years is whether that comes at the beginning of the 'journey', or at the end. I believe it comes at the end when we stand before God on the Day of Judgement.

What is eternal life? "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent" (John 17.3). This tells me you are not born-again, you don't know Jesus Christ, because you admit you don't have eternal life.

"He is equal with God, therefore His hand is as strong as God’s hand." - See: John 10:29 and 14:28.

"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all..." (John 10.29). You're misreading this verse. It is not saying God the Father created the Son, but rather in terms of authority before the foundations of the world, the Son agreed with the Father the Son would be the perfect obedience unto the Father to show mankind how to be. "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I" (John 14.28). Same principle. You know full well this is how Christians read these verses, so you are seeking to change the times and the ways. That's what cults do.

So, you admit works and faith are linked? You can't have one without the other. It doesn't matter which comes first, they are both necessary.

They are both necessary, but not for the same purposes. Repentance and faith unto regeneration get you in the door, but works get you to the mansion. We who are saved are all going to overcometh one day, but some of us will do so sooner and thus receive reward for the 1000 years.

Can faith only save you without works? See James 2:14.

Yes, faith can save you without works; in fact, works can't make you a new creation of God. "By grace are ye saved, through faith;...not of works" (Eph. 2.8-9); "But to him that worketh not, but believeth..." (Rom. 4.5).

In James 2.14, we see a man who claims salvation, but when you see his fruit you know his faith is superficial, not real, so not saved: "What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?" It does not mean he can lose salvation if he is really saved or that works are required for salvation as we have seen in the above verses salvation is by faith not by works, lest anyone should boast.

There is no 'threatening'. Only the person himself can 'threaten his own salvation by rejecting Jesus and His gospel.

You may feel threatened, but the fact remains the 5 unwise virgins are the same class of people as the 5 wise virgins with oil in their lamps, except the 5 unwise don't fill up with oil in their vessels. There are consequences for Christians, not loss of life, but loss of rewards. That's what the 1000 years is all about: the time of recompense without which this world would hardly be just. It is accountability which you are threatened by.

You believe in force. I believe in free will. That is the classic, ancient debate. In any case, salvation is always linked to behavior. You even admit it in your above comments. The difference is your use of the word: *constrain*, which implies force. I believe the Holy Spirit witnesses to the believer to persuade him to stay away from evil, but does not force him.

What you construe as force, I construe as God's love that we chose to enter into for the promise of God's keeping us and no man can pluck us out of His hand. Your god is either unwilling or unable to do this. Satan loves to cast doubt and give you a salvation of doubt and can fall out of which can only lead to death. The salvation of overcoming is always linked to behavior and works, but never is the free gift of salvation that all we need do is repent and believe in Christ to receive eternal life at new birth. Eternal life is an ability to know God and enter into a relationship with Christ. Previously, you said you don't have this life. Constrain is a pleasantly reigning in when we may backslide. That is the kind of Protector that you would want. Such persuasion is most convincing like a loving parent that doesn't let her child cross a busy street. Your god though lets you cross even that street which you may perish. That is not comforting.

"For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead" (2 Cor. 5.14). "For I am full of matter, the spirit within me constraineth me" (Job 32.18).

I agree that one cannot escape the 'hand of God'. But, I don't agree with 'irresitible grace'. I'm not a Calvinist.

I don't believe in irresistible grace either. I am an OSAS Arminian.

Salvation is a personal choice. Not an irresistible mandate.

Salvation is a personal choice, not a choice to enter in getting saved, then the sad choice to leave it. Not at all. God won't waste His time saving you in the first place then. Hence, you are not saved, since you could leave any minute. Nor is it irresistible grace.

Because God respects free will. He does not force anyone to heaven.

I don't think God is respecting free will if a person can lose salvation, because salvation is a free will choice for eternity with God not a choice to enter in and then get out in a couple years. That is a vain and superficial salvation, the one you have. In such a case God would be forcing a false salvation on you. Whereas true salvation is once-saved always. God's love will constrain your authentic choice, because you know you don't have the strength to keep it, but trusting in God, He keeps you. You're trying to save yourself, but you can't do it. "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1.13). You're only deceiving yourself and letting a cult control you on that basis like the Roman Church controls its adherents with fear of not keeping up works you could lose their organization's salvation.

Only in your Calvinistic mind

.
You are misconstruing Calvinism. I reject all 5 points of Calvinism. The 5th point of OSAS Arminian is not the same thing as the 5th point of Calvinism. The 5th point of OSAS is as was said before a choice for life, but in Calvinism it is forced, because it wasn't the person's choice to enter in in the first place.

"I give unto them my sheep eternal life; and they shall never perish" (John 10.28)-That verse does not say or imply that they have no choice to turn away. That is a Calvinistic assumption.

This verse says "they shall never perish." That's the plain reading of the text. Calvinists misuse this verse to say God forces them and pride themselves on that basis, for a Calvinist didn't enter into salvation with the choice afforded to him. But an OSAS Arminian did receive the choice and made the choice for forever, so God does His part so "they shall never perish." And your salvation is false also because you assume eternal life is by works, so it doesn't matter what the text says. After all, Mormons say some of the Bible is wrong. You're not distinguishing between what Arminius and Calvin taught, so I can see how you are confused.

Paul said obedience is necessary for salvation (Heb 5:9).

Such kind of salvation is eternal. Once saved, forever saved. "Having been made perfect, he became unto all them that obey him the author of eternal salvation" (Heb. 5.9). The salvation which the Lord has accomplished for us is eternal, therefore our salvation is also eternal. Once you are born-again, you tend to obey Him.

Interesting interpretation. But, I still disagree.

I could sense some crumbling there. Let me repeat that point. "Take heed to thyself, and to thy teaching. Continue in these things; for in doing this thou shalt save both thyself and them that hear thee" (1 Tim. 4.16). There are different aspects of salvation: salvation of new birth and salvation of overcoming. The salvation of overcoming is referred to here. Read Rev. chapters 2 & 3 about the "overcometh" warning to each church period.

The real issue is whether any unclean or unrighteous person can live with God forever.

Exactly, so you have to ask yourself how you can maintain yourself by works, whereas a Christian is kept by God even though he may falter here or there. "For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day" (2 Tim. 1.12). This was a choice for life with no Mormon out-clause.

There has to be an 'out-clause' in order to preserve free will. I am not a Calvinist.

No, there doesn't have to be an out-clause for God to preserve free will if it is true salvation, for God keeps as 2 Tim. 1.12 the choice "committed" which is a choice for forever. You're not a Calvinist, but neither are you an Arminian. You're a non-OSASer.

Then, why doesn't it say 'overcomers salvation'? You are just interpreting that passage to fit your Calvinistic assumptions. You are wrong!

It doesn't have to always say overcomers to mean overcoming. Look. The Bible is not about mostly salvation and unsalvation, but overcoming salvation for believers. It is a book for believers: "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved" (Matt. 10.22). Read it as intended and it will come alive to you like never before.

I am persuaded by God you are not saved because your faith is not on solid rock: once-saved-always-saved.

I have never said my will was 'passive'. You have not answered whether that word 'led' means against their will.

You said "It implies more than just a simple, passive belief." Belief is not passive. But it is real and authentic, requiring no works to make it as you say, impassive. You are unwilling to repent to the cross of salvation to receive Christ once-saved-always-saved. That lacking repentance is why you have an out-clause, because it is not solid and real. What you construe as non-passive is adding in man's works to keep the eternal life you haven't even got yet, according to your theory. Yuck! I have something right now you don't have. Eternal life! Praise God!

Your god takes away from you your free will to have the choice for forever in a keeping God. This free will option is not available to you according to the god of Mormonism. Please go to God and ask Him what He has promised. Inquire of Him: Has Your love for me changed? Will You repent concerning Your word? Do You have the power to perform Your promise? Are You trustworthy? Are You dependable? If you think more upon God, your faith will spontaneously rise up without the need of manufacturing it. Do always remember this, that you yourself are not faithful, nor is your own faith trustworthy. God alone is the source of faith! And He is faithful!

Doesn't say we can't reject what we have.

If you can reject it, it only means you didn't enter into salvation to receive eternal life immediately upon being born-again. You're unwilling to repent and believe in the True Christ for that kind of salvation. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Pet. 1.3-5). My faith is guarded and can never fade away, whereas yours can. God keeps me from rejecting Him, because that was my choice to enter into. Whereas you entered into one where you could get out. You didn't read your marriage vows.

Faith without works is dead just false faith with works is dead.

Choice certainly does imply action.

Choice is a choice; action is a work. To be saved you will need to choose the God who can keep you and will never let you go. Right now you worship a fickle god who will let you go.

Faith is much stronger than belief. And, faith without works is dead.

Faith is belief. Faith without works is not real faith, just as works without real faith are dead.

restitution is part of the process. If a thief steals something from you, part of his repentance would be to return what he stole. That is a 'work'.

Sometimes you don't have the means to pay back, so does that mean you can't be saved? Of course not. Faith is a free gift that anyone can be saved. Not paying back what you can pay back after being saved may lose rewards, but it can't lose you life.

Yes, and what's wrong with that? Why are you so negative toward 'works'? You have acknowledged it is part of the salvation process. Certainly part of true faith.

I am positive towards work. You are negative towards work, because you think work can lose you salvation. Not at all. Salvation is a free gift of God, not by works, lest any man should boast. Therefore, works is unto rewards, not loss of life. Since you admit I "have acknowledged it is part of the salvation process. Certainly part of truth faith" then why do you think that is negative? Paul never thought he could lose eternal life. Alas, you claim you don't have eternal life, and I agree, you don't.

I disagree. You can argue that works follow initial salvation, but you must admit that if works don't follow, there is no real salvation.

I said, "Discipleship is required for rewards, not for initial salvation" which you disagree. Why do you think discipleship is not required for rewards? Don't you believe in accountability? You think discipleship is for initial salvation!? That is works. Man can't save himself. He is a sinner. You even admit if works don't follow, the person was not really saved to begin with. Therefore, it is not that he lost salvation, but was never saved to begin with.

I don't believe God extends grace to unrepentant sinners. The unrighteous are not saved.

Then you should admit that you are not saved, because you are unwilling to repent and believe in Jesus Christ who saves to the uttermost, once-saved-always-saved. You would rather believe in something lesser, that can only save you if you are a good worker. You are unrighteous, for this false teaching.

To become a disciple of Christ, to be saved, is a choice that implies action, direction, decision and commitment. Without all that, how can you be saved?

Becoming a new creation in a choice+works is you saving yourself, but you can't do that, you are a sinner. Sinners can't save themselves. That's why salvation is a free gift to anyone who believes in God. A choice for Christ knows nothing of what actions to even take, so it is not faith plus works, but God will lead us into the works He has apportioned for us if we are diligent in Him. What you need to concern yourself with is the problem of your faith implying opportunity for losing faith which is not true faith.

Paul mentions three heavens (2Cor 12:2).

3rd Heaven is Paradise above. The angels are in 3rd Heaven. The fallen angels have fallen down to 2nd heaven. The earth and the natural universe we see is 1st heaven.

Why do you call it 'kingdom of heaven' when you are talking about earth? I believe the Kingdom of God ison the earth and the kingdom of heaven is, well, in heaven.

There are 3 aspects of the kingdom of heaven and 3 aspects of the Kingdom of God. Try to understand.

After the birth of Christ, there comes one who prepares the way for Him. His name is John, and he proclaims that the kingdom of heaven is at hand. The Lord, together with the apostles whom He sends forth, announce the same news. What does it mean? Later on, as noted in chapters 8 and 9, we see that the Lord heals the sick and casts out demons, and that all these are closely related to the nearness of the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5-7 speaks of the nature of the kingdom of heaven: which is, that those who belong to this kingdom are absolutely righteous towards themselves, absolutely gracious towards others, and absolutely pure towards God. In Matthew 10 we learn that the Lord sends out His apostles. And in Matthew 11-12 we see that a great transition begins occurring, as though the kingdom of heaven is now being taken away from the Jews. Now with regard to the kingdom of heaven found spoken of in Matthew 13, some interpreters have asserted that the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven are the kingdom of heaven in mystery. Such an assertion is logically unsound when it is held up against all the things which we have just seen: how that both John and the Lord as well as His disciples proclaim that the kingdom of heaven is at hand, how that the Lord then announces the nature or character of this kingdom, and how after He is rejected by the children of Israel He in the thirteenth chapter is found declaring only the outward boundary of this kingdom (what we see in this age being but the outward appearance). So that chapter 13 does not deal with the character or nature of the kingdom of heaven, for this has already been described in Matthew 5-7.
Some, on the other hand, contend that all who desire to enter the kingdom of heaven mentioned in chapter 13 must possess the character of the kingdom of heaven as laid down in chapters 5-7. This interpretation again is impossible to accept, since in chapter 13 we have presented the tares, the leaven, and so forth as being in the kingdom of heaven. So that this chapter presents to us nothing but the outward appearance of the kingdom of heaven.
The kingdom of heaven is not the millennial kingdom; it is the reigning in the millennial kingdom. Let us see that the kingdom of heaven has three different aspects.

(1)An outward appearance, boundary, or scope as is shown to us in Matthew 13.
(2)A spiritual reality, that is to say, a kind of spiritual conduct which is formed as a result of learning righteousness and grace progressively under the authority of God and which is elucidated for us in Matthew 5-7; and
(3)A reigning with Christ in the future millennial kingdom as revealed in the fact of our future reward as told to us in Matthew 5-7.

Accordingly, we must first of all enter into the sphere or boundary of this kingdom of heaven by being sons of the kingdom; then secondly, we need to have the kind of conduct described for us in Matthew 5-7 – which is to have real spiritual conduct; and lastly, as a consequence we may reign with the Lord.

Today there are three different kinds of people:
(1)those who have entered within the sphere of the kingdom of heaven and yet unsaved; these are represented by tares.
(2)those who have been saved and are in the domain of the kingdom of heaven, ye they fail to keep the teaching of Matthew 5-7.
(3) those who are saved and also keep the teaching of Matthew 5-7; they truly overcome, and therefore in the future they shall reign with the Lord in the third stage or aspect of the kingdom of heaven.

A Comparison Between the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God

The kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are distinguishable but are not separable. Let us consider in some detail these two descriptive phrases found in Scriptures.
(1)With certain parables Matthew employs the statement “The kingdom of heaven is likened unto . . . “; but Luke uses the words “The kingdom of God is like. . . . “ for the same parables – thus indicating that the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are one and the same. Both the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven in these parallel instances refer to the outward domain of the kingdom. On this level, it can be said that the outward appearances of both the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are alike. Parables such as that of the leaven belong to this category.
(2)Yet the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are not synonymous with respect to the second aspect of the kingdom of heaven, inasmuch as what is described in Matthew 5-7 speaks of actual overt behavior whereas “the kingdom of God is righteous and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit” (Rom. 14.17). The one stresses spiritual conduct; the other inner spiritual condition.
(3)Even so, in the third aspect of the kingdom of heaven is again similar to the kingdom of God since both refer to the matter of reigning during the millennial kingdom.

Though the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven are similar as regards the first aspect, the kingdom of God covers also the time of which the prophets in the Old Testament speak – for whenever the sovereignty of God is present, His domain is there at the same time. But this characteristic is not applicable to the kingdom of heaven.

With regard to the third aspect, it is true that the kingdom of God is the same as the kingdom of heaven in that both refer to ruling with Christ in the millennium; yet the kingdom of God extends further on into eternity since in eternity God also reigns – but by that time the kingdom of heaven will have passed away. With respect to the third aspect, therefore, the kingdom of God exists longer than the kingdom of heaven.

In certain sense it can be said that the kingdom of God includes the kingdom of heaven, but not vic versa.

So far as the outward official history of the church on earth goes today, there can be said to be the Roman Catholic Church, the national churches, and the private churches. The Roman Catholic Church claims that the entire world is under her domain and that no national church is therefore allowed. The national church such as the Anglican Church asserts that every citizen of the nation belongs to the Church. But due to dissatisfaction with the national churches, there came into being the so-called private churches.

As regards to the outward sphere, as long as people say they are Christians, no one can drive them out of the kingdom of heaven; for the Lord has not promised to weed out the tares today. At communion or the Lord’s Table or the breaking of bread, however, the church may indeed weed out or separate the unsaved and the wicked from the saved ones. So that in the outward appearance of the kingdom of heaven, such as in a national church, unbelieving people may be included therein, but in the sphere of the believing assembly an unsaved person may be excluded from fellowship. This clarifies the two totally different spheres: that of the outward appearance of the kingdom of heaven and that of the church. Within the boundary of the outward appearance of the kingdom of heaven there may be tares; but within the churches the body of Christ there is only wheat no tares.

Only Calvinists believe in OSAS.

I am an Arminian. Arminians are OSAS like others such as Dave Hunt and Watchman Nee. Why does this offend you?

That only makes my point that choosing, repenting, commiting and being baptized are 'works' that are connected or linked to being 'saved'. Does it really matter whether they come before or after one is saved?

The Bible says choosing is not a work. "He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him" (Heb. 7.25). Are faith and works contrasted as opposites? "By grace are ye saved, through faith;...not of works" (Eph. 2.8-9); "But to him that worketh not, but believeth..." (Rom. 4.5). Christ repeatedly gave such invitations as "Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matt. 11.28), and "If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink" (John 7.37). Baptism follows salvation. It's called credobaptism. Repentance leads to choosing, but neither is repentance a work. Committing to a God who keeps is a salvation which you have not entered into. Works won't save you, you're just relying on your flesh.

A man can know he has eternal life as long as he stays in the covenant. He has that assurance. He also has his free will to reject or withdraw. God does force that man to stay against his will.

Before you said eternal life is in the future, not present, but the Bible disagrees with you. "These things I write to you, who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know you have eternal life" (1 John 5.13). For you to be made to stay would be forced because you have an out-clause. But Christians have keeping-in-clause and that is true salvation. True repentance is saying to God, I don't know how to do this, all I know is I trust in you to keep me to the end, so when I falter, your promise is assured that you will not let me fall back. You were unwilling to commit to this kind of salvation, so that is why you are going to Hell, not the least of which the many other strange things you teach claiming God is gods and there were multiple intelligences always existing. What does the Bible have to say about that?

the Persons of the Godhead are co-equal, co-inherent and uncreated One Being for Jesus said, "I and the Father are one" being (John 10.30), "one Lord" (Deut.6.4) "from everlasting to everlasting" (Ps. 90.2; 1 Chron. 16.36, 29.10; Neh. 9.5). "Believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him" (John 10.38) proves that the Father and the Son are One Being" (Deut. 19.3). "I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me...besides me there is no saviour. Is there a God besides me? yea, there is no Rock; I know not any" (Is. 43.9-10; 44.8). It is God "who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. No one has seen the Father except the one [Jesus] who is from God; only he has seen the Father" (1 Tim. 6.16; see John 1.18)-tells us only God is uncreated and Jesus is God because Jesus can see the Father. In Isaiah 9.6 the Son is our originator: "everlasting father, referring to Him being the author of existence. Isaiah 40.28 says "The Lord is the everlasting God" and in Habakkuk 1.12, the rhetorical question "O Lord, are you not from everlasting?" is asked. We don't see these words describing God's uncreated existence characterizing man as a prior intelligence. In Colossians 1.16 we are told that "All things were created by him [Jesus]," the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End (Rev. 22.13,16). This expression tells us that God existed first, none with Him or before Him. "For in him [or, by him] were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him" (Col. 1.16).

If I am not commited to Christ and His gospel, I have no such assurance. But, I am commited. So, I can rely on Christ's promises--not on His forcing me to conform. Remember, it is a two-way covenant--I and Jesus walking hand in hand in a saved condition. As long as I hold onto that Hand, I am saved. I have that assurance. Nothing can pluck me out of His hand--except my own letting go of it. If that happened, it is not Jesus' fault. That's what free will is about. Calvinism is about determinism and force. It is not biblical. Most Christians reject it.

How could you have assurance, since you worship a god who has not promised to keep you no matter what? In fact you really don't even know if you will have eternal life in the future, because you admit you might change your mind. If you are truly saved nothing can pluck you out of God's hand, not even you, because you would have entered into a permanent covenant with Him to be kept thick or thin. But you don't want that relationship. You want a works based salvation in which you can opt out at any time. You're in an uncommitted relationship which is not with Jesus Christ, but you worship a false Christ. The Mormon Jesus is just another one of those false Christs out there. Calvinism is false, but so is non-OSASism. Most Christians reject Calvinism and non-OSASism. The truth hurts when you are not in the truth.

Because I am not a Catholic and it would be presumptuous of me to do so. That does not mean I can't have opinions about Catholicism (or, any other 'ism'). But, only Catholics can speak authoritatively about their own faith--not you or me.

Your cult is very similar to the Roman Church. You both hold non-OSAS works salvation. You both have various temple rituals and much of secret at higher levels. You both deny the coming millennial reign of Christ and time of recompense (Rev. 20.2-7). You both add books to God's word in the 66 books. You have men as your idols, etc., etc. You even have your own pope as it were.

That's because Catholics are not Calvinists.

Rather, that's because they are not OSAS Arminians.

Neither are LDS Christians.

Praise the Lord at least you realize that LDS are not Christians. Christians are defined as believing in the Triune God: God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit as the On and Only uncreated Being before time began. And nothing existed then but God. And no, God is not gods.

But, many anti-Mormons like to accuse Mormons of relying on feelings when we testify of what we believe.

Since you don't solve logical contradictions you must be living in the passions of your flesh. For example, how can there be multiple uncreated beings or intelligences as some Mormons put it, without asking the question where did they all come from and why were they separate from each other? I like to use the phrase "star dust". How is star dust intelligence? Furthermore, how is God gods? He is no longer a personal Being then. Because no Mormon has ever been able to reconcile these contradictions, we know what you worship is Satan.

That is official LDS doctrine. There are hints of it in the Bible (Jeremiah 1:5). But, we get that doctrine from modern extra-biblical revelation. That's the real issue.

Intelligence implies being. That passive acceptance mindless of multiple beings that always existed has no basis, and gives no reason why down the street another cult is not just as legitimate with its differing number of different beings that always existed. That's just plain goofy. You really didn't think this out properly. Any false teaching inevitably has gaping hopes. There are many in Mormonism, but I find this to be the biggest one. There are no hints of multiple uncreated always existing different beings or intelligences. We have only ever seen One uncreated Being in Scripture. God!

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations" (Jer. 1.5). This verse is referring to God's infinite foreknowledge, not preexisting spirits or whatever you call them this decade as I get confused by all the changes in your cult. You plunge into a fantasy life with this one verse and don't read it as it was meant to be read as originally intended.

Some day you will learn that we did [always exist]

Some day you will realize this is how you keep yourself eternally separated from God and sends you to Hell, because you make yourself equal with God in always having existed. Shame on you!

"Son of man, give the prince of Tyre this message from the Sovereign LORD: In your great pride you claim, `I am a god! I sit on a divine throne in the heart of the sea.' But you are only a man and not a god, though you boast that you are like a god." (Ez. 28.2)

Some gods claim to always have existed when they didn't. "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god" (Is. 44.6). The serpent lied: "God knows that your eyes will be opened when you eat it. You will become just like God" (Gen. 3.5).

God is from everlasting to everlasting. Not you. Oh how that must pain you!

It's a logical contradiction to be be created and yet always existed. You really need a new word for created. It's misleading. You're changing Biblical terms and redefining them. Cults love to do that.

Calvinism is not biblical

You're like a clanging bell. Yes, I know Calvinism is not Biblical. You missed the point. An unsaved person's views seem to take on the particular predisposition of his flesh. The holder of the non-OSAS view naturally tends to be strong-willed, but the Bible says not by the will of man nor the will of the flesh is one saved. "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1.13). Here will of man does not refer to choice, but rather, man's planning in works. Will of the flesh here points to man's passions, emotional pursuits. And of course, of blood refers to physical. Calvinists like to misuse this verse too when they treat it as denying man the free-choice. You guys are crazy! You non-OSASers and Calvinists! May God forgive you for you know not what you do.

We have discussed this before. I have sent you evidence to the contrary. As usual, you did not rebut it. Only dismissed and gave me insulting opinions. Therefore, I will not re-visit.

I have replied to a large bulk of your material, which you hadn't responded to in kind, so the burden is on you. Your vague response is most telling. Why be coy? Address it at least in some words, and not none at all.

If you strip all the bizarre teachings away in Mormonism or LDS, I think the 3 most important proofs that you are going to Hell are these:

1) Unwilling to repent to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior who presents you to the Father who can and does keep you eternally, knowing your own will is untrustworthy to keep yourself a thousand years, 10 years or even one year. It is clear you are unsaved because you think you can save yourself by works. No you can't! You think too highly of yourself. Trust in God who keeps, not you can keep yourself saved.

2) You worship not the Christian God and you admit that LDS is not Christian. But Christianity is the 66 books written and by Textual Criticism proven without add-ons. In other words, there is only One uncreated Being and it is logically incoherent to claim an always existing whatever you call it, different intelligences, etc. without asking yourself where they all came from. Do you realize how this is henotheism and polytheism? As well as atheistic, because atheists also teach an always existing whatever that is not God.

3) The number of revisions and transformations your cult takes shows it is untrustworthy. Are we to believe the current decade teachings are the correct ones and not the originals or subsequent decades from its founder? You sugar coat things up but you can always find the holes. You ought to ask yourself why don't you adhere to the original of your leader? Contrast this with Christianity in which the NT is still the same (with consistent Creeds).

You also teach nearly universalism with few going to Hell. It does not reflect the human condition very well. Your god is just too impersonal for Christians and leave confused what is to happen after you die, as you seem to be changing from classical Mormonism which teaches you will be a god of worlds. I know you need to change the story, but being coy about it is likely due to embarrassment, rather than being an open book of the Lord. Perhaps you are embarrassed about it and think it needs to get revised like other Mormon doctrines, e.g. treatment of blacks, polygamy, etc.

My prayers go out to you to yet receive Christ, the one who saves eternally at new birth and a Father who can keep you inspite of your weakness. Amen.

[Churchwork]

You are just repeating yourself bringing up old issues we have 'discussed' and disagreed over. You have my reasons for not agreeing with you. It all comes down to our differing world religious world views and assumptions. You accept only your understand of your Bible. I accept all that God reveals today as well anciently. I accept modern prophets and the restored New Testament Church as represented by the LDS Church. That will always be the *real issue* that separates us. Some day we will both know who is 'right'. I am sure we will meet some day on that great day when the books are opened. Until then, I see no need to continue wasting each other's time with useless harangues. I will probably answer any remaining posts with very brief responses.

They may be old issues, but still they are problems which you are unable to resolve. It is not just a matter of disagreeing, but literally there is no justification for assuming multiple always having existed intelligences. A reasonable person asks where do they come from rather than just assuming they existed. In all your posts you have never given a reason for why you would assume this other than pride itself. In Christianity there are no assumptions, but your assumption is gaping wide, you can shove a galaxy through it. God doesn't reveal multiple always existing intelligences today nor yesteryear were there such things. There was just One uncreated Being and Creator. That's it. Not man or spirit children or beings or gods, but only the Trinity "from everlasting to everlasting" (Ps. 90.2; 1 Chron. 16.36, 29.10; Neh. 9.5).

So your sin is this. "Son of man, give the prince of Tyre this message from the Sovereign LORD: In your great pride you claim, `I am a god! I sit on a divine throne in the heart of the sea.' But you are only a man and not a god, though you boast that you are like a god" (Ez. 28.2). God covers all such claims whether spirit children, intelligences or gods as gods.

Anything you want to claim as being prophets for today, must still agree with God's word, and since Joseph Smith and you bring in teachings that violates God's inerrant word, then you know you and Smith are false. The Church has never taught such things and did not have to wait 18 centuries to find out. How sad that would be that for 1800 years people couldn't get saved. If Christ doesn't return I am sure in the year 2800 and 3800 there will be another fanciful cult, but since there is nothing under the sun, it will have to just rehash previous false teachings like the Mormons do which is really just Greek mythology and of pagan religions of many preexisting beings.

By claiming multiple always having existed separate intelligences you are not restoring anything anymore than John Calvin thought he was the Reformation, not realizing the Reformation is just "justification by faith".
"Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2.9). We are "justified by faith in Christ, and not by works: for by works shall no flesh be justified" (Gal. 2.16).

We will not meet up as you think. Rather, the Bible says "But the rest of the dead [referring to the unsaved] lived not again until the thousand years were finished" (Rev. 20.5). You are going to be resurrected a thousand years after I am resurrected, and then you will be cast into Hell for all eternity. We won't meet up as you say. Remember, you worship a creator who really doesn't create out of nothing or out of Himself, because you always existed you said as a spirit child or spirit dust (like atheism) or intelligences, whatever you call it. This is your idolatry, your pet false teaching. What you worship is self, called henotheism, of a god and gods (or intelligences). But the Bible says, "God said, "I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me...besides me there is no saviour. Is there a God besides me? yea, there is no Rock; I know not any" (Is. 43.9-10; 44.8). There is no way around it. When making the claim you were intelligence always existing alongside God you pridefully, pompously and arrogantly share in His everlasting uncreatedness. Therefore, you are making yourself a god beside God which violates what God just said, there are no gods beside Him.

"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god" (Is. 44.6).

Furthermore, your false teaching of non-OSAS is devastating to your claim. "I give unto them [my sheep] eternal life; and they shall never perish" (John 10.28). It doesn't say, I will give them eternal life if they keep my commandments. It says those who are saved, the sheep, shall never perish. Period. Adding and inserting into the verse is your sin for your cult and why you are not saved, because you too selfish to repent and believe in a God who can keep you eternally; rather you worship self who thinks you can keep yourself eternally. Could there be any greater arrogant thought and pride? You really don't know your own condition very well. What a fickle god who gives life, takes it away and gives it back maybe. Wouldn't it be better to worship a God who has the foresight to give it one time. Just as you can only be born physically once, you can only be born spiritually once, always saved.

My prayers go out to you, you can repent and leave your cult.

[Churchwork]

Jesus is, indeed, God. But, He is not the only true God. See: John 17:3. See: Numbers 16:22, Acts 17:29, Heb 12:9.

That's right, Jesus is not the Father. That would be modalism. The Church rejects that teaching. The only true God is referring to the 1st Person being the only true Father, but Jesus is God too in that He always existed with the Father and Spirit and none other: no prior intelligences. If you got no evidence for it, you can't add that idea in. The Bible says nothing about God creating gods, i.e. creating Jesus. He always existed so He was not created. So the sin at the end of the day is you worship gods and claim multiple uncreated always having existed intelligences or gods or spirit children. That's polytheism or henotheism. God covers it all by saying only He is from everlasting and there are no gods beside Him.

"And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?" (Num. 16.22) This verse doesn't mean you existed as a spirit before? How absurd! It means you have a spirit in your body, for remember, when God breathed in the breath of life into the body from dust, the soul life was formed so you have a spirit, soul and body. You are a living soul with a spirit (inner man) and body (outermost man). See Heb. 4.12, 1 Thess. 5.23. No Christians in the history of the Church claim this means you were a previously always having existed intelligence or whatever you call it. Ah, the pride of life!

"Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. " (Acts 17.29). You are fashioning the Godhead according to your own devices, plates of god or crystal gazing on stones by Joseph Smith and man's devices of sexual progenitors. That is so narrow minded. As offspring God made us in His image. To be made in His image does not imply any preexistence. Again, you in_sert into the text that which is not there. The basic meaning of being created means you never existed before in any form or matter. See the Hebrew term for created in Gen. 1.1. Same applies to Heb.12.9. God created us; nothing about a former existence of self. That can only lead to various many false teachings because it feeds pride, pride has no humility and it begets the fall. Christians would not want to spend an eternity with you, because you will still be worshiping self that you always had existed and you worship Jesus among many gods rather than as the Creator of the universe with the Father and the Spirit in the Trinity Whom existed alone before time began.

My prayers go out to you, you can have a change of mind. You can let go and become a Christian, receiving the True Christ among many false Christs. Amen.