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Thread: Lying, Deceptive, Selfish (LDS) Mormon Doug Yancey

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    Default Lying, Deceptive, Selfish (LDS) Mormon Doug Yancey


    If you had the Holy Spirit in your spirit:

    1) You would no longer be a Mormon
    2) You would no longer think God is gods
    3) You would no longer thing God is different substances
    4) You would no longer accept Joseph Smith’s grand cult or think Smith was saved in his Satanic encounter.
    5) You would no longer believe that the 3 Persons of the Godhead are separate.

    This is why according to the Scriptures you are unregenerated. No more, no less. You believe in something, but it is not of the 66 books of the Bible. You believe something else and what you believe is incongruent with the God’s life, that is eternal life and His Holy Spirit.

    I can only give you the truth of your heart condition and your dead spirit (an intuitive conscience insensitive to things of God). You still have to make the choice for Christ Doug.

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    I tried again to help Doug Yancey give his life to Christ, but still he refuses to do so as he always ends up shutting his mind down to the facts and the need for evidence. This is actually a glory to God, because God will not coerce Himself on Doug (showing how righteous and holy God is in all His dealings). He treats Doug with respect made in His image to give him the free-choice. He will not treat him as instrumental value, but is intrinsically valuable to God, even if God has to put Doug into hell for all eternity for refusing the Trinity of One Substance. Here are the claims he makes which he refuses to try show evidence for, which after all this time, we can be fairly certain, he can't because his beliefs are false. God has released me from this burden of the Holy Spirit, because I have done all I can to help lead him to Christ.

    Doug's sins:
    1. Since your self-declaration John 17 says that Jesus is of another substance than the Father is never shown, and no Christian that I know of reads it that way and certainly no Christian scholar, then you are living a lie in the vagaries of your self-declaration, and following after an evil man Joseph Smith who is just one guy all by himself who claimed something like Mohammed in a cave started his own religion. You have nothing you can find in the Bible to help your claim that God is gods or different beings of different substances; nor do you address how these beings came into being. Obviously your Satanic puff the magic dragon approach will not do.

    Christians read John 17 as the humility of Christ showing perfect obedience. The Father, Son and Spirit of the Trinity agreed the Son would enter into creation to show that perfect obedience unto the Father. This is the complex of God's Triune Being of one Substance.

    2. Your claim of subordinationism (see chart) is not true at all. For in the eternity of the past, the Father was co-equal with the Son and the Spirit, and co-inherent. Just because the Father and the Son agreed that the Son would be the one who entered into creation to be the atoning sacrifice and erect obedience unto mankind, does not mean subordinationism. For remember what Rev. 22.1,3,4 says that God and the Lamb will the center of the new city, and you shall see His one face. Yes! His one face of the Father and the Son. Remember in all our discussions (over a thousand email exchanges) this is where you faltered the most and had the most doubt in your ideas when I told you about this in Rev. 22.1,3,4. This is where you are potentially open to having a change of mind. Let this be your doorway of truth in the Scriptures that helps lead you to Christ. Don't be embarrassed at your late stage in life, that you would be just now saved! God glories in such miracles! And Christians will rejoice.

    3. Your claim that the Father is the Word and so is Jesus goes, but this goes against what John 1.1 says and is modalistically doubletongued, considering you are a tritheist polytheist mormon. It says In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Further along we discover Jesus is the Word, the person on earth Whom the 66 books of the Bible (the Word) embody just as Jesus in the form of God is the Godhead bodily when He is in His creation. Never ever will you find the Bible saying the Father is the Word. Silly. This shows how way off you are!

    The negative consequences of this are not too hard to see. Once you let the idea in your head that God is different beings (when it was never revealed in the Word), then you open up pandora's box. You excite your flesh and your imagination goes wild about what these different beings in God are doing. You would be trying to be like God by mistakenly assuming He is different beings. Satan tried to get into God's head too, but obviously he failed. Eve wanted to be like God too, and Adam fell with the same attitude. You can never be saved by trying to save yourself your own way. Where is the humility in NOT accepting some things God won't reveal to you such as what is underneath the Father, Son and Spirit. It's like a person who programmed a computer game. The character in the game cannot know more than what the designer reveals.

    Besides, all of this silliness is based on one guy who said he saw something, but then he lost it, so he had to make it up. He fabricated it on gold plates, and got people to look at those gold plates so he could have eyewitnesses. Plus, they didn't even see the contents. Then some of those eyewitnesses left mormonism.

    Some people don't want to be saved. So many failed prophecies...

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    I have wrestled with the matter of whether or not to put these pages on-line. LDS are pretty defensive about this approach, which seems like a direct attack. But the Bible does warn us to “beware” of false prophets. This info is useful in obeying that command. Further, everyone knows the standard “testimony” of Mormons relates to their confidence in the church, the Book of Mormon, and Joseph Smith. Yet, none of those who tell me these things have ever put Smith to God’s Biblical test for a prophet. We are told in Deut. 18:20-22 how to test a prophet. It says that if “the thing” prophesied does not come to pass, then we are not to fear (or revere as a prophet) such a person. Note that it doesn’t say “the things”...but limits the test to any ONE prophecy. With that in mind, let us look at SEVERAL of the prophecies of Joseph Smith.
    The fact is that a list of over 55 (false) prophecies of Joseph Smith has been compiled by former LDS Elder, Dick Baer, who printed it up to demonstrate to his friends and family why he was leaving the church. Here are some of them:
    1. July 1831, Doctrine & Covenants 51:1-3 names Independence, Missouri as the center place of Zion. And D & C 62:1, 6 and 9 say the saints would be preserved and rejoice together in the land of Missouri. But they were not preserved in the land of Missouri (they were driven out) and did not rejoice. While this was a promise to the FAITHFUL, the fact that no one was able to be preserved and rejoice in Missouri(their being driven out was a catastrophe) would indicate that all the Mormons had become unfaithful. So even if we make this conditional it would suggest a TOTAL apostasy in this new church. That would throw a question on the whole authority/priesthood issue, would it not?
    2. D & C 84:2-5, 31 and 114-115 say a new Jerusalem temple was to be built IN JOSEPH SMITH’S GENERATION in Zion (Missouri) on the temple lot. It was not built.
    3. D & C 87 (Civil War Prophecy) It is interesting to me that this is a prophecy LDS claim was fulfilled. South Carolina had already rebelled when Smith wrote of “the rebellion of South Carolina”, but that rebellion did NOT spark the civil war (1833) - the war began in 1860. Though Great Britain was called on, it did NOT get involved in the war, and contrary to the prophecy, war was not poured out on all the nation. Nor did the slaves rise up against their masters as a major part of the war... it was primarily a war of white men against white men, North against South.
    4. Doc. & Cov. 103:13-25 speaks to the men of Zion's camp, who were organized to march to Missouri and RESCUE the Mormons there (see vs. 24). Verse 25 promises they (those men of Zion's camp) would avenge God's
      enemies. But in the History of the Church, Vol. 3, pages XXXIX and following is described the utter FAILURE of Zion's camp to avenge anyone of anything! God's OWN presence (vs. 19) supposedly went with them...but the
      whole thing failed!
    5. D & C 111:1-11 (August 6, 1836). Regarding Salem, Massachusetts: “I have much treasure in this city for you... I will give this city into your hands... and its wealth pertaining to gold and silver shall be yours.” There is no record that either the city or any of its wealth ever came to Smith. While this promise was supposed to happen "in due time" (so it has been suggested that it may happen later), Smith and his men were IN SALEM when the revelation came, and left there
      very disappointed at not having gotten any treasure, as they did not interpret the use of the word "you" in the revelation to mean some OTHER people in some OTHER century.
    6. D & C 112 is a “revelation given through Joseph Smith to Thomas B. Marsh at Kirtland, Ohio, July 23, 1837.” It says God knows Thomas’ heart and he has a great work for him to do; he was chosen to hold the keys of the kingdom. Marsh was president of the 12 at that time, but apostatized 15 months later (Doct. Hist. of the Church III, pp. 155-167).
    7. D & C 114, dated April 17, 1838, says, “Verily, thus saith the Lord: it is wisdom in my servant, David W. Patten, that he may perform a mission unto me next spring...” But Patten died October 15, 1838 (D.H.C. III, pp. 170-171).
    8. D & C 115:1-12. The saints were commanded to build a house to the Lord in Far West, Missouri, “until it is finished, from the cornerstone unto the top thereof, until there shall not anything remain that is not finished.” Though the foundation was laid, the temple was never built (there was a move on to Nauvoo).
    9. D & C 124:56-60 says the “Nauvoo House” was to be built and belong to the Smith family forever, and was to be a place of refreshment for visitors. But the house never was completed; that area is now owned by the Reorganized LDS church. In verse 63 of this section it gives instructions on issuing stock for the house that was never built. Why would a God who knew the future command such a deception to be told to his own people?
    10. Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 302: “I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri...that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left.” The wrongs were never redressed.
    11. D & C 124:16-17 speaks of God’s acceptance of the work of John C. Bennett. But D H C, V, page 42, reveals that 3 months before this revelation and beyond, Bennett was involved in adultery.
    12. History of the Church, Vol. 2, page 182. Joseph Smith said that the coming of the Lord was “nigh — even 56 years should wind up the scene.” (Given in 1835)
    13. Church History, Vol. 2, pp. 380-381. Joseph Smith said he saw in a vision of the CELESTIAL kingdom “the 12 apostles of the Lamb who are now upon the earth.” But the History of the Church later records the apostasy and final excommunication of 5 of the 12 apostles referred to in this vision:
    Lyman Johnson Vol. 3:20
    Luke Johnson - Vol. 2:528
    William McLellin - Vol. 3:31
    William Smith - Vol. 7:483
    Thomas Marsh - Vol. 4:284
    I wish to acknowledge that Joseph Smith did give one true prophecy as follows: “For although a man may have many revelations and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he BOASTS in his own strength and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must FALL and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him.” (D & C 3:4, emphasis added)
    Joseph Smith did boast in his own strength - that he had done more than even Jesus Christ (D H C 6:408-409). This boast was made in May of 1844. In June of 1844 Joseph Smith did fall (dead), not as a martyr, but in a gun battle in which he killed two and wounded one (Comprehensive History of the Church, pp. 284-285). He died not as a sheep going to slaughter, but as a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

    “Beware of false prophets”

    by Sharon Doty

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    LDS in Trouble Because of DNA Evidence
    There is a big problem for members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints to deal with...somehow. To summarize it, the Book of Mormon teaches as historical fact that the Indian tribes in the Americas are descendents of Israelites who came across the Atlantic mainly about 600 BC. BUT... studies of 150 plus Indian tribes' DNA has revealed a total lack of any Semite (Israelite) genetic markers in the Indians in the Americas. The logical conclusion is that the Book of Mormon story is fiction, not fact. The Book of Mormon is allegedly the whole foundation of Mormonism, so it is a bombshell issue. For further details about the DNA research, CLICK HERE. I'm sure other info can be found through a search of the internet as well. This information has been out now for over two years, and is appearing in tracts, videos and newspaper articles. An article on this subject that appeared in USA Today can be read at For more information connect to: Mormons are having mixed reactions; shock, disbelief, denial, and disillusionment. My heart goes out to this group of people.
    So what is my interest? I am a Christian and I've been a student of LDS teachings for over 35 years and have felt God called me 17 years ago to WARN Mormons that they have been deceived about SOME of the things they have believed. This would be one of them.
    My message at this point is this: Can we talk? I would plead with the LDS reader, as you reevaluate what is true and what is not, to consider the following thoughts:
    1. The Bible has not been disproved--you can safely believe in it.
    2. Jesus Christ has not been discredited in any way. PLEASE do not throw out the baby with the bath water.
    3. Do not make the false assumption that "If the LDS Church is not true, then no church is true." That assumption is based on a false premise--the "TOTAL APOSTASY" premise. Please read the truth about this! (Click here: Apostasy and Restoration)
    4. The heart of my warning to Mormons over the years has focused on the LDS plan of salvation. PLEASE, PLEASE study this out because it involves the destiny of your soul! (click here: Mormons in Shock). I'd be so pleased to discuss any of these four points with you as well as other topics discussed in my site (Article Index: click here).
    My testimony to you is that God and Christ are real and worthy of your trust. I have trusted Christ as my Savior and He has made Himself real to me and to literally millions of others who have trusted in Him, through changed lives, answered prayers, and other miracles. I stake my life on these statements. Salvation CAN be found outside the walls of the LDS Church. I would love to discuss Biblical salvation with you. It is even BETTER than what you have been told in the LDS Church. Can we talk?

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    It is better for you Doug to speak with your own words, because none of the hundreds of articles you cut and past arbitrarily that you send me actually address my points. Plus, it is very impersonal like the impersonability of God being a social collective of created beings.

    There is some basic things that ought to be agreed on. Reason with me.

    1) In the eternity of the past there was not multiple gods, since you would have to ask who or where did this god or that god come from, which is a never ending question, just like atheists believe there is an eternity of the past of causes and effects. Therefore, there must be one source of one substance in the eternity of the past. We know atheists believe ultimately in Lucifer, and by comparison, then so would mormons. God the Father was never a man, and He was not created from another being. You should reject this reincarnated effect. He is uncreated.

    2) The Son of God also has to be uncreated, otherwise you are receiving an atonement from a created being which is less than the God I believe in, so my God trumps your God. You lose and I win in Christ.

    3) It stands to reason that if God the Father is uncreated and God the Son is uncreated, so too is God the Spirit uncreated since God the Spirit is the life of the Father and the Son. And if all 3 Persons of the Godhead (the Trinity) are thus co-equal and co-inherent, then the Triune Being must be all of one substance.

    Ultimately what you are doing is shutting your mind down to proper reasoning, because you want to go to hell and get as many people to go there with you. By your desire to want to go to hell, you have to shut your mind down to this proper reasoning. :wacko:

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    Let's examine some of these, shall we?

    Quote Originally Posted by Churchwork View Post
    There is some basic things that ought to be agreed on. Reason with me.

    1) In the eternity of the past there was not multiple gods, since you would have to ask who or where did this god or that god come from, which is a never ending question, just like atheists believe there is an eternity of the past of causes and effects. Therefore, there must be one source of one substance in the eternity of the past. We know atheists believe ultimately in Lucifer, and by comparison, then so would mormons. God the Father was never a man, and He was not created from another being. You should reject this reincarnated effect. He is uncreated.
    As far as reasoning goes, you face the same problem: where did God come from? He is 'uncreated'? He must have come from somewhere. You really can't use your argument against the LDS when current Christian theology faces a comparable *problem*.

    2) The Son of God also has to be uncreated, otherwise you are receiving an atonement from a created being which is less than the God I believe in, so my God trumps your God. You lose and I win in Christ.
    I am not a particularly good arguer/debater, but this is the worst argument I have seen. "I think my God is better than yours so you lose"


    3) It stands to reason that if God the Father is uncreated and God the Son is uncreated, so too is God the Spirit uncreated since God the Spirit is the life of the Father and the Son. And if all 3 Persons of the Godhead (the Trinity) are thus co-equal and co-inherent, then the Triune Being must be all of one substance.
    It most certainly does not stand to reason that God is 'uncreated'. Neither does it stand to reason that the Son is uncreated. And even if those things are true, it certainly does not make sense that they are the same 'substance'. They can be co-equal without sharing any 'substance'.

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    Christians do not face the mormon and atheist problem of wanting an eternity of the past of cause and effects of gods creating gods, because we observe what God says. God says look at the mountains and the stars to know God did it, and that since nothing in nature happens all by itself, therefore, the uncreated must have created. The created could not have been the ultimate creator.

    It is the faith that can't accept the uncreated and uncaused created that is an evidence your beliefs reveal your unsalvation. The Holy Spirit reveals this fact as the proof that since obviously an uncreated God would have more power than a created god, this is why you lose and have hell waiting for you. Your beliefs are a reflection of your unsalvation, so God says we shall know them by their fruit. You don't want to be saved by the uncreated Savior, but want a lesser salvation so you can remain in sin through a created being.

    Further, it remains true that since there can only be one uncreated in the eternity of the past and not multiple uncreated beings, since you would have to ask where these other beings come from, then you know that the uncreated nature of the Triune Godhead requires all 3 Persons of the Trinity to be uncreated and of one substance as Christianity has always taught. You are not a Christian, but someone who gets off on your cultic idea that puffs you up. You would need to learn the difference between your soul and spirit to allow God to break this bondage you are under.

    The Holy Spirit has shown me in no uncertain terms through this explanation and revelation is why you are going to hell. This is a shield of protection against you as you aim to deceive in your ego. You are a bad person who wants to remain in sin and has found a way to rationalize it to yourself. God values so much the preservation of His Word against such things as polytheism.

    What I have said here was already said. Since it needs be repeated, it shows that you don't care to address it. In other words, you are stuck on your assumed stance of the atheist idea of beings creating beings in the eternity of the past as a moron-mormon. I also believe you know you are willingly deceiving, but don't care. You do have a spirit of God-consciousness so you are aware of your uncreated creator God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit, but you don't care as you choose to alter His very Being as Satan tries to exalt himself too. Your conscience is dead to God that you presume darkness in Christianity the past 1800 years after the cross even though Jesus said "It is finished". That is to say, all the power of the cross by the Holy Spirit is available to all so as to maintain spiritual Christianity, even though there may be many faults in greater Christendom. What you try to teach is a diabolical alteration which is cunning and couth, ugly and unholy.

    Satan lives by self-declarations, and that is how you live. Your self-declaration is that God is different beings who are created beings, so you have no personal relationship with the uncreated creator. How sad for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Yancey
    We don't 'in_sert into God different beings'. We believe there are three separate and distinct divine Persons within the one Godhead. They are composed of the same type of substance, but are not the same Being.
    This is why you are not a Christian, because the Church in Scripture or in subsequent Creeds, never taught God was several beings. Don't you know many evil things develop from claiming multiple uncreated beings? Scripture only ever allows for one uncreated Being, and logically, only one uncreated Being exists, otherwise, you have to ask where these others come from. By uncreated means one Being always existing. Think about it. If many uncreated beings always existed, how could you be any more polytheistic? That's worse than Hinduism. Mormonism is the most polytheistic religion man has ever created to reject God. You do in_sert into God different beings. You said they "are not the same Being," then you in_sert into God different beings, which contradicts what you said, you "don't 'in_sert into God different beings'." The Bible says, be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8). Your don't have a regenerated conscience in Christ to realize how wrong this is and mistaken assumption of multiple uncreated beings. Who is to say the religion down the block with its different number of uncreated beings is the right one? There is no standard. The only standard is one uncreated Being, God Almighty, the One True God. For eternity you are going to live this lie unless you give your life to Christ.

    I'm already in the 'body of Christ'. It's called the Church of Jesus Christ.
    You mean the Mormon church. There is nothing in God's word Jesus would go to North America. You're delusional. The Church wherever two or three are gathered in His name have never called themselves Mormons. So you are not a member of the body of Christ. Just know that you have not blasphemed the Holy Spirit, that you yet can come to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive the Lord Jesus as your Savior.

    I don't believe in having one's seat 'locked up' in heaven. Do you believe you can be saved and live any way you want? See: 1Peter 4:17-18.
    That is a strange faith as Dave Hunt says, that you could be saved, lose salvation tomorrow, gain it back the next day, lose it next week and next month get saved again. Would God be so fickle? Don't you have faith to believe in God who can once-save-always-saved by His infinite foreknowledge? What you may not understand that once-saved a person can lose rewards in reigning with Christ during the 1000 years, which is a very long time, but he doesn't forfeit his place as a pillar in the New City and New Earth. In the eternity of the future in the New City rewards are done away.

    "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" (1 Pet. 4.17) This verse doesn't say you can lose eternal life if you are born-again. It would though apply to loss of rewards for the millennial kingdom. You're not persuaded. "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 8.38-39). 1 Pet. 4.18 confirms this: "And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" To be "scarcely saved" is still saved, just like the 5 unwise virgins who did not fill their vessels with the oil of the Holy Spirit still had oil in their lamps, but they were not allowed to enter the marriage feast of the millennial kingdom.

    "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand" (John 10.27-29).

    Are you sure He is talking about one's life on earth rather than at the Day of Judgement? Do you believe you are saved in your sins? See: Rev 20:12-15
    They shall never perish does not refer to earthly things, but eternity. Judgement seat for believers before the 1000 years commences is not to determine whether you are saved or not, but to enact discipline and rewards for the saved. A Christian is saved in Christ, not our sins. Our sins can cause us to lose rewards, but not life. Salvation is not by works, lest any man should boast. You're an arrogant man who thinks he can save himself, lose his salvation and work to get it back. Don't you know you are a sinner? A sinner can't save himself, nor can he lose salvation once-received.

    "And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even] the lake of fire. And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20.12-15).

    Great White Throne takes place after the 1000 years. One perishes because of his evil works (not because of lack of good works). Mormonism is evil for it alters God into different beings. And those who are saved are saved because their names are written in the book of life ('locked up' and foreknown), again, not because of their good works. You can't save yourself. All religions of the world are based on works just like Mormonism. Only Christianity is different: "Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2.9).

    I and all Mormons don't rely on our 'works' to save us. We rely on the grace of God to fulfill the covenant we make with Him. That means we commit to be His disciple and He promises to 'bring us home' to His Father's house. So, nothing we can do--without His grace--will 'save' us. But, everything we do can affect our salvation if we break our covenant. See: Matt 7:21, 19:17.
    You're contradicting yourself. You said, "Mormons don't rely on our 'works' to save us," but you do for you said, "everything we do can affect our salvation" to even lose eternal life. If God chose you for initial salvation, He does it for life; if you can lose salvation, it's because you never had it to begin with, since to lose salvation is based on works. We are "justified by faith in Christ, and not by works: for by works shall no flesh be justified" (Gal. 2.16). Works can neither get you saved, nor can they cause you to lose salvation. This is true salvation.

    "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matt. 7.21-22).

    Matthew 7.21 lays down the general conditions for entering the kingdom of heaven. 7.22 illustrates the special exclusion from the kingdom. And 7.23 tells of the special consequence thereof for such people.

    The word "knew" in verse 23 is the past tense for the same Greek word translated "know" in Romans 7.15. In the original it means to recognize or to understand. "I never knew you" may therefore be translated as "I never recognized you"—which means "I never recognized what you did as right."

    Now the people in question here are definitely Christians, for the following reasons:

    (1) The context in which these words of Jesus are found is the so-called Sermon on the Mount, which, as we have continually seen, is primarily spoken to believers.
    (2) The teaching of the mount from beginning to end never instructs us as to how we can be saved since it is obviously addressed to those who are already saved.
    (3) This small section from verse 21 to verse 23 does not deal with the question of faith; rather, it treats of the matter of conduct. We know we are saved through faith and not by work. Hence what is said here has nothing do with eternal perdition of the unsaved.
    (4) "In that day" (v.22)—What day is "that day"? These words refer to the day of judgment at the judgment-seat of Christ before which the saved alone will appear. This is not the judgment before the Great White Throne.
    (5) The people in question here have called on the name of the Lord; therefore they are the Lord’s.
    (6) Notice the works they perform: they prophesy by the name of the Lord, and by the same Name they cast out demons and do many mighty works.

    "That day" is a specific term in the Bible. As today is the day of man (see 1 Cor. 4.3: "or of man’s judgment" which in the original is "of man’s day") when man judges, so "that day" is the day of the judgment-seat of Christ when all the saved—and no one but the saved—shall be judged (see 2 Tim. 1.12,18; 4.8). Obviously, Paul is not talking about losing eternal life, but receiving or losing rewards.

    v.22 "Many" shall not enter the kingdom of heaven. "Lord, Lord . . ."—They call on His name once again.

    "Prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works"—All these are considered to be great gifts in the church: to prophesy is to do the work of a prophet; to cast out demons is to bring in the kingdom of heaven; and to do mighty works is to exercise the power of the age to come. Those who perform such acts specifically cite these things because they think by these things they are most qualified to enter the kingdom. Yet they are missing something unbeknownst to them, which God will reveal at the Bema Judgement Seat of Christ.

    v.23 The word "confess" in Matthew 10.32-33 points to the saved ones. If we do not confess the Lord before men now we will be denied the glory of the kingdom of heaven. Similarly, the passage here rendered as "then will I profess unto them, I never knew you" is better to be translated as "I never recognized or approved of you"; and the reason for His disapproval is given in the words "ye that work iniquity"—wherein "iniquity" in Greek actually means "lawlessness" and means not working according to the rules of the kingdom of heaven.

    "Depart from me" simply denotes that they have no part in the glory, a glory which is very different from what is mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 1.9.

    Hence the general conditions for entering the kingdom of heaven (millennial reign with Christ) are a being saved plus doing the will of God.

    The Holy Spirit who dwells in man is the Person of the Holy Spirit, and therefore He is there to rule over man. But the Holy Spirit that falls upon man is without personality, and hence it obeys man: "The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets" (1 Cor. 14.32). The Holy Spirit dwells only in the saved ones, but His power may fall upon the unsaved such as Balaam.

    It is possible to be lawless even in prophesying, in casting out demons, and in doing mighty works. There is the danger of not doing the will of God in all these things. We need to ask the Lord to deliver us from the iniquity of the sanctuary (see Num. 18.1). Let us realize that in the last days these same things shall be greatly increased.

    "And he said unto him, Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? One there is who is good: but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments" (Matt. 19.17).

    v.17 The Lord answers the young man according to the latter’s background and status. Neither does He tacitly acknowledge here that doing some good thing will obtain eternal life (for to one who believes that doing a good thing is the way to eternal life, the most natural answer would be to say, Why not do good? But this is not the reply given by the Lord.).

    "One there is who is good"—The Lord helps the young man to know himself. Only one is good (God), and there is none else.

    "Keep the commandments"—for "he that doeth them shall live in them" (Gal. 3.12). Unfortunately there is no one who keeps the commandments and thus may be justified before God. If one stumbles on the smallest point of the law, he is guilty of all the laws (James 2.10). Law was originally a ministration of the Lord God, yet it has become the ministration of death; so says Paul (2 Cor. 3.7-9). Just as the dumb cannot ask how to sing hymns to please God, nor can the cripple ask how to dance so as to be welcomed, even so, no man is able to ask how to do good so as to gain eternal life. Nevertheless, sinners today keep on asking this question. Remind you of anyone?

    Our 'assurance' of salvation is dependent on our staying in the covenant of grace and our obedience (Heb. 5:9). That does not mean we 'earn' our salvation. It just means we must continue to have faith in Christ. Faith is a principle of action. It implies more than just a simple, passive belief. We cannot be save without repentance. See: Matt 25:31-46
    The Lord Jesus (John 5.24), Paul (Romans 8.38-39), and John (1 John 5.11-13) have no qualms about offering absolute, objective assurance of salvation. Furthermore, works are never included as a requirement of assurance. So why do you?

    Once saved, forever saved. "Having been made perfect, he became unto all them that obey him the author of eternal salvation" (Heb. 5.9). The salvation which the Lord has accomplished for us is eternal, therefore our salvation is also eternal. Your faith is the kind of faith with the option not to have tomorrow, whereas the Christian faith is a choice for forever. Yours is selfish, with an out-clause so you did not genuinely enter in. You still held some reservation for self. Initial salvation requires your repentance and true authentic belief in Christ, but after initial salvation, repentance or no repentance, work or now work, can't cause you to lose salvation. Faith is not a principle of action, but a principle of choice. Works is a principle of action. A choice to believe in the One True God is not passive, but vital for salvation, for faith and works contrasted as opposites: "By grace are ye saved, through faith;...not of works" (Eph. 2.8-9); "But to him that worketh not, but believeth..." (Rom. 4.5); so, Christ guarantees, "him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (John 6.37). Satan will cast you out, but not God. Works afterward are not passive, but active towards receiving the reward of reigning with Christ during the 1000 years. Repentance is a change of mind, not a work either. Therefore, if you repent and come to the cross as a helpless sinner the Lord Jesus will surely save you and give you eternal life which can never be lost. That is the God you can have too. Matt. 25.31-46 pertains to the dividing of the nations, not about initial salvation and eternal life.

    As regards the security of our salvation—that is to say, we will never perish once we are saved—we can find at least twelve different areas of evidence in the Scriptures.

    (1) According to God’s will—God foreordained us to be His children and to have sonship given to us, yet not according to our conditions but according to the good pleasure of His will (Eph. 1.5). He saves us and calls us with a holy calling, yet not according to our works but according to His own purpose (2 Tim. 1.9). For our conditions may change, but God’s will never changes (Heb. 6.17). In eternity He has formed a will which wills to save us that none of us should be lost (John 6.39). How then can we be saved and later be unsaved? Our salvation is forever secured in the unchangeable will of God.

    (2) According to God’s election—God’s choosing us is neither accidental nor temporary. He has chosen us in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1.4). His election is not according to our works but according to His will (Rom. 9.11). For we have not chosen the Lord; the Lord has chosen us (John 15.16). Just as the Lord never changes, so His election knows no repentance (Rom. 11.29). Hence our salvation is eternally secured and will never be moved.

    (3) According to God’s love—Our salvation is based on God’s love for us and not our love for God (1 John 4.10). Our love changes easily, but God’s love is deeper than a mother’s (Is. 49.15). It is eternal (Jer. 31.1), to the end (John 13.1), and changeless. This everlasting love of God has made His salvation eternally secured to us.

    (4) According to God’s grace—We are saved, not by ourselves nor by our own works but by the grace of God (Eph. 2.8,9). We ourselves with our works often change, but the grace of God is firm and sure. For this reason our salvation is eternally secured. Furthermore, this saving grace is given to us in Christ Jesus even before the foundation of the world (2 Tim. 1.9), and we have our redemption according to the riches of God’s grace (Eph. 1.7). His grace is always sufficient and more than sufficient. His grace is able to bear all our burdens, supply all our needs, and save us to the uttermost.

    (5) According to God’s righteousness—God saves us not only by His love and grace but also according to His righteousness. He cannot help but save us, because the Lord Jesus on our behalf has already suffered on the cross the righteous judgment of God and has satisfied God’s righteous demands. Therefore, if God will not save us He will fall into unrighteousness. In saving us He reveals that He is righteous (Rom. 1.16,17), for righteousness is the foundation of His throne (Ps. 89.14). His righteousness is immovable. Since our justification is founded on the righteousness of God, it is eternal and immovable.

    (6) According to God’s covenant—God has made a covenant with us to save us (Matt. 26.28; Heb. 8.8-12), and a covenant can suffer no alteration (Ps. 89.34). And hence our salvation cannot be changed.

    (7) According to God’s power—"My Father who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand" (John 10.29). God is supreme and His power is the greatest; none can snatch us out of His mighty hand. So that according to His power our salvation is also secured.

    (8) According to God’s life—God’s life is eternal. God has given this eternal life to us that we may become His children and have an everlasting life relationship with Him (John 3.16; 1 John 3.1). Life relationship can never be dissolved. His eternal life in us will not allow us to perish (John 10.28).

    (9) According to God himself—There is no variation nor shadow of turning with God (James 1.17; Mal. 3.6). How can our salvation ever waver then, since it comes from such a God?

    (10) According to the redemption of Christ—The Lord has become to us the author of eternal salvation (Heb. 5.9). We are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all (Heb. 10.14). Since what the Lord has done is eternal, our salvation must also be eternal. Because of this, "who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us" (Rom. 8.34). None can abrogate the redemption which the Lord through His death and resurrection has accomplished for us. None can condemn us for our sins. Hence our salvation is eternally secured.

    (11) According to the power of Christ—"No one shall snatch them out of my hand" (John 10.28). The Lord and God are one. He is equal with God, therefore His hand is as strong as God’s hand. No one can snatch us out of His hand. His almighty hand makes our salvation eternally secured.

    (12) According to the promise of Christ—"Him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (John 6.37). The Lord has promised that He will never cast out any of us who come to Him. Such a promise of His likewise guarantees our eternal salvation.

    What is your definition of faith? Is your faith alive or dead without works? See: Luke 6:46-49, John 5:28-29.
    Faith is belief and good works flow from true faith, whereas dead works flow from what you said you received, a "passive" faith.

    "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Every one that cometh unto me, and heareth my words, and doeth them, I will show you to whom he is like: he is like a man building a house, who digged and went deep, and laid a foundation upon the rock: and when a flood arose, the stream brake against that house, and could not shake it: because it had been well builded. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that built a house upon the earth without a foundation; against which the stream brake, and straightway it fell in; and the ruin of that house was great" (Luke 6.46-49).

    Compare to Matt. 7.24-27. The Lord adopts the use of parables here to reinforce what has been spoken before. The problem cited in this verse is not a matter of hearing but doing. We have already heard; whether or not we do depends on each individual. "These words"—Broadly speaking, they have reference to the entire teaching on the mount. In a more restricted sense, they refer to the emphasis previously laid down above of doing the will of God. "Rock" signifies doing the will of God. Here it does not point to the Lord himself. Foolish does not mean "wicked"; it instead agrees with the thought of the foolish virgins spoken of in Matthew 25.2. Neither does it refer to the unsaved, since the entire subject here is building. The rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house—not a beating upon the person but only a beating upon his work is in view here. Hence he must be a saved person.

    Who built his house upon the rock—the man in question thus built, not because he was good but because he was wise. This is in parallel with the wise virgins cited in Matthew 25.2. Every one therefore that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them—that is, a doing according to the Lord’s words. The foolish person is not one who does nothing, since he too goes and builds; but he does things according to his own will instead of according to God’s words. One pathetic trait among believers is their inclination to imitate the world.

    What is the difference between the wise and the foolish? They both spend the same time and they are all engaged in building. Yet what a pity that the foolish builds upon the sand. The wise, though, has his eyes on the judgment-seat of Christ. Rain and floods and winds speak of great tribulation. The rain comes from above, and so it beats upon the head. The winds blow in all directions, and the floods strike against the foundation. Rain" refers to the works of the evil spirits, winds allude to the leadings of the evil spirits (see Eph. 4.14), and floods signify the power of the evil spirits.

    It would be quite strange to read this passage as threatening a person could lose eternal life.

    "Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment" (John. 5.28-29).

    I am quite certain you misunderstood the passage. It is not saying those who have done good get saved even though they may not believe in Christ or because they did good they can remain saved. Naturally, the unsaved will do evil and the saved will be constrained by the Holy Spirit from doing evil. It's shallow to make this verse about losing salvation. How dull. Try to understand what this verse is actually talking about.

    This passage is about those who think they can escape judgment. Some may try to conceive a way to escape judgment. It is a rather foolish thought, but some may try. Why not hide in hades, after death, to avoid judgment? "They that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment" (John 5.29). If, by hiding in hades, one is not resurrected, will he not escape judgment? But this is altogether useless. Listen to the word of God: "Though they dig into Sheol, thence shall my hand take them" (Amos 9.2a; cf. Ps. 139.8). Do you think you can hide in hades and seal up its entrance, thus escaping judgment? The hand of God will take you out of it. No matter how deep you dig into Sheol, His hand will remove you.

    There is another group of people, possibly modem scientists or aviators, who fancy they can fly into space and escape the judgment. But this is also futile. Listen: "Though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down" (Amos 9.2b). You may climb up, but God will bring you down. It is hard for you to climb up, but it is easy for Him to bring you down.

    Perhaps some will consider fleeing to the mountains and the forests where they cannot be found. Yet the word of God says: "Though they hide themselves in the top of Carmel, I will search and take them out thence" (Amos 9.3a). You speculate that by hiding in the depth of the mountains or among the many trees you may escape judgment, but God will search and take you out.

    Others might say that if neither hades nor heaven nor the mountains can hide them, why not try the bottom of the sea? Here, too, the word of God warns: "Though they be hid from my sight in the bottom of the sea, thence will I command the serpent, and it shall bite them" (Amos 9.3b). As you hide in the bottom of the sea, you will be bitten by a serpent and find no escape.

    The above are various pictorial representations of your futile efforts. In hades, in heaven, in the mountains, or at the bottom of the sea you may escape the hand of men, but you cannot escape the hand of God. According to the Bible, there is absolutely no way of escape. You can't even escape salvation if it were possible if you were truly saved.

    So, your 'grace' is cheap? See: John 8:31, Acts 10:34-35.
    It's God's grace, not my grace. Why do you make salvation your grace? My assurance is in His promise and keeping power, not in my efforts or performance. Whereas rewards is based on my efforts and performance of abiding in the works God has set for me.

    "Jesus therefore said to those Jews that had believed him, If ye abide in my word, then are ye truly my disciples" (John 8.31).

    My Apologetics Study Bible notes say, "Much of the belief attested to in verse 30 was probably superficial." So they were not saved to begin with. You'll find lots of people saying they believed in Jesus, coming so close to Him, but then turning back for another gospel. The audience was narrowing: "The Jews responded to Him, 'Aren't we right in saying that You're a Samaritan and have a demon?'" (v.48).

    "And Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is acceptable to him" (Acts 10.34-35).

    This verse is about God showing no partiality. So why in_sert that a person can lose salvation? This verse is referring to "every nation" not to individual salvation. Is your grace cheap? Apparently, because it is your grace, not God's grace. Your grace says you can lose salvation. God's grace says once-saved-always-saved. That is a salvation you can trust.

    So, you believe once you are 'saved', you no longer have any choice to reject it? I don't believe the Bible teaches such a notion. See: Romans 2:6-13, 1Tim 4:16, Heb 12:14.
    The choice to believe in Christ is a choice for forever, not for a hundred years or a thousand years or a million years, but for forever. You didn't address these verses. He said, "I give unto them my sheep eternal life; and they shall never perish" (John 10.28). "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Pet. 1.3-5).

    "Who will render to every man according to his works: to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek; but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek: for there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law; for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified" (Rom. 2.6-13).

    The Bible mentions obedience as well as faith, for we are not only sinners but additionally sons of disobedience. What Romans 10.16 means by "believed our report" in Isaiah 53.1 is "obeyed the glad tidings" (Darby). The nature of believing the gospel is obeying it. "Rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus" (2 Thess. 1.8). Those who do not obey are the rebellious: "Unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth . . . shall be wrath and indignation" (Rom. 2.8). The disobedient are the rebellious ones. "Seeing ye have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth" (1 Peter 1.22). This clearly indicates that purification is by obedience to the truth. Faith is obedience.

    Believers would best be called "obeyers," for they are to be subject to the authority of the Lord as well as to believe in Him. After Paul had been enlightened he asked: "What shall I do, Lord?" (Acts 22.10) He not only believed, he in addition submitted to the Lord. His repentance was caused both by understanding grace and by obedience to authority. When he was moved by the Holy Spirit to see the authority of the gospel, he addressed Jesus as Lord.

    God calls us not only to receive His life through faith but also to maintain His authority through obedience. He counsels us who are in the church to obey the authorities He has established—in home, school, society, and church—as well as to obey His direct authority. It is not necessary to point out specifically which person you should obey. It simply means that whenever you encounter God’s authority, directly or indirectly, you should learn obedience.

    Many are able to hearken to and obey only a certain person. This shows that they have not seen authority. It is vain to obey man; it is authority that we must obey. To those who know authority, even a slight disobedience will make them feel that they have been rebellious. But those who have not seen authority have no idea how rebellious they are. Before being enlightened, Paul kicked against the goads without realizing what he was doing. After enlightenment, however, the first thing which happens is that the eyes of Paul are opened to see authority, and this seeing continues to increase thereafter. Though Paul met only a little brother by the name of Ananias, he never questioned what kind of man Ananias was—whether learned or illiterate—because he was not looking at man. Paul recognized that Ananias was sent by God and he accordingly subjected himself to that delegated authority. How easy it is to obey after one has learned authority.

    We should not assume a person can lose salvation by this passage. That is in_serting into the text. Paul is not contradicting his previous statements that salvation comes by faith alone: "For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith" (Rom. 1.16,17). Our good deeds are a grateful response. Again, you can take these words to mean those who are saved can lose rewards, but not life; and those who are not saved no matter what good works they do, they still will not be saved because they do not live by faith.

    "Take heed to thyself, and to thy teaching. Continue in these things; for in doing this thou shalt save both thyself and them that hear thee" (1 Tim. 4.16).

    There are different aspects of salvation: salvation of new birth and salvation of overcoming. The salvation of overcoming is referred to here.

    "Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man shall see the Lord" (Heb. 12.14).

    The sanctified position before God. Every Christian, at the time he receives the Lord, not only has had his sins forgiven and has become justified but also has been sanctified before God. God is holy; without holiness no man can see Him, commune with Him, or pray before Him. As righteousness is God’s way of doing things, so holiness is His nature. Sins are forgiven according to righteousness. Without forgiveness of sins no one can be saved. And without holiness none may see God (Heb. 12.14). Holiness is not a matter relating to sins, it relates to our being set apart to God. Because every Christian is sanctified in Christ, he therefore may come to God.

    Let us see that the fruit of sanctification is not only a matter of our conduct but also a matter of our experience in nearness to and communion with God. "Follow after . . . sanctification without which no man shall see the Lord" (Heb. 12.14). No doubt we are sanctified positionally and we may boldly enter the holiest place so as to have intimate fellowship with God, but if we do not stand on the sanctified position with a true heart in fullness of faith, we seemingly will not be able to touch Him. Hence we must seek after holiness, since without it no man can see the Lord.

    "And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who will also do it" (1 Thess. 5.23,24).

    Rev. 22.4 "And they shall see his face"—In the millennial kingdom only the overcomers shall see God’s face (Heb. 12.14), since to see the face of God constantly is a special privilege.

    "For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day" (2 Tim. 1.12).

    'Keep' them against their will? See: Matt 10:22.
    "For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day" (2 Tim. 1.12).

    They are kept in that initial choice, for their choice was a choice for eternity. Christians were saved by that choice through faith, whereas your faith has an out-clause. You can lose your faith, but Christians can never lose our faith.

    "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved" (Matt. 10.22).

    Again, this passage refers to the overcomers salvation, not losing eternal life.

    "Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete [perfect] it until the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1.6). "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 8.38-39).

    Except for the free will of the one so 'loved'.
    Where does it say "except" your will? It doesn't say that. Just know your free will choice was did not enter into a relationship with God but the evil spirit, because you have an out-clause whereas Christians don't. Our choice was for forever.

    "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God...

    Led against their will?
    It was their will, my will, but not your will, because remember, you said yours was "passive." Such passivity can easily be manipulated, tangled and confused by the evil spirit.

    Ye have received the Spirit of adoption.... The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ" (Rom. 8.14-17). "If we are faithless, He remains faithful" (2 Tim. 2.13).

    If one is 'faithless', that means one has no faith in Christ. How can one be 'saved' without faith? And, how can faith be 'alive' (not dead) without works? See: James 2:19-26, 1Peter 1:3-5.
    God has the desire to do. God is not only able to perform that which He has promised, He also has the heart to do so. Having the ability but not the desire will make a promise null and void. But God has both the power and the heart to do what He promises: "he is faithful that promised" (Heb. 10.23); "if we are faithless, he abideth faithful; for he cannot deny himself" (2 Tim. 2.13). As to what He has promised, God will perform to the letter towards His children. He does what He says. Otherwise, it would affect His deity, because God cannot deny himself. He is forever trustworthy. Should His promise be vain, we naturally could not commit ourselves and our affairs to Him. But God is faithful. He never swallows His word: He has promised, and where, then, is there any room for doubt?

    Please do therefore learn this lesson today. You yourself are not the source of faith. Never ask yourself, "Do I have faith?", "Is my faith adequate?" These questions are useless. The more you ask, the less faith you have. Please go to God and ask Him what He has promised on this or that matter. Inquire of Him: Has Your love for me changed? Will You repent concerning Your word? Do You have the power to perform Your promise? Are You trustworthy? Are You dependable? If you think more upon God, your faith will spontaneously rise up without the need of manufacturing it. Do always remember this, that you yourself are not faithful, nor is your own faith trustworthy. God alone is the source of faith! And He is faithful!

    Even a Christian who if it were possible to have no good works, yet still had faith, would still be saved, but lose rewards. His faith would certainly lose rewards. His faith would be dead like the faith of the unsaved, but since God is the one who gave Him the gift of faith, even if he is faithless, God will preserve Him in the faith.

    "Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar? Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect; and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God. Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. And in like manner was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works, in that she received the messengers, and sent them out another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead" (James 2.19-26).

    This justification here is not the justification for new birth, but is the justification unto rewards. We ought not to assume more than that. As we are justified by faith for initial salvation, we are justified by works for rewards of the millennial kingdom.

    "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Pet. 1.3-5).

    "Guarded through faith," not through works.

    He cannot deny Himself" (2 Tim. 2.13). "But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God" (John 1.12).

    Yes! One must make a *choice* to believe and receive. Choice implies action. It requires repentance and discipleship. Without that, how can one be saved? See: Matt 5:20, 1John 2:17, Rev 22:14.
    Choice does not imply action, for action is a work. Choice implies belief. First you must believe before you can act. To repent is not a work either, but it is part of believing. How can you believe if you don't repent? It does not require discipleship, for discipleship is a work. Discipleship is required for rewards, not for initial salvation. You can be saved in a false salvation if you require these works, but what does God say? "By grace are ye saved, through faith;...not of works" (Eph. 2.8-9); "But to him that worketh not, but believeth..." (Rom. 4.5).

    "For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 5.20).

    Righteous is unto rewards, not to gain or maintain eternal life. None are righteous but God. There are 3 aspects of the kingdom of heaven. The aspect referred to hear is the reigning in the 1000 years. The New City and the New Earth come after that.

    God places two considerations before men: first, He presents eternal life to sinners; and second, He presents the kingdom to all who already have eternal life. All who believe have eternal life; nevertheless, as Jesus said to His believing disciples, "Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 5.20). The Lord Jesus also declared this: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 7.21). Thus we are shown that to have eternal life one need only believe, but to enter the kingdom one is required to fulfill another condition.

    Soon after a person is saved he is set by God on a specific course that lies ahead of him. The entire life of a Christian can be likened to running a race. Yet this is not a racing towards the goal of eternal life. It does not mean that he who wins this race will have as his prize eternal life; on the contrary, only the person who has eternal life is qualified to run. No, the result of this race is that some of the participants are to be crowned while others will not be (see 1 Cor. 9.24-25).

    When you teach non-OSAS you are hard in your own grace which is not God's grace.

    "And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever" (1 John 2.17).

    What is the will of God? Believe on Christ. And once in Christ work for His good pleasure. All dead works will be burnt up; that is not to say, because of some work you do you could lose eternal life if you were saved.

    "Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right to come to the tree of life, and my enter in by the gates into the city" (Rev. 22.14).

    All believers in Christ wash their robes. It is just a matter of timing when they do. So effectively, this verse is saying all those who repent and believe in Christ.

    How could one have eternal life without choosing, accepting, believing and repenting? If an adulterer accepts salvation, does that mean he can continue commiting adultery?
    The problem is not that one has eternal life by choosing to repent, accept and believe to receive Christ, but men who would say that is not enough, that you must also include works for initial salvation or works to keep that initial salvation, otherwise they will go to Hell. What love is this? This is how man controls men, like Joseph Smith tried, but God's ways are higher than his ways. What makes you think an adulterer who claims to have giving his life to Christ actually did when he still commits adultery? You need a conscience in Christ to see this.

    "These things I write to you, who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know you have eternal life" (1 John 5.13). How could a man know he had eternal life, passed out of death into life, if he had not been justified by faith which could never be lost? He couldn't.

    What you are telling me is you don't know if your salvation is secure. Indeed, it is not! That can't be a good feeling Satan instills.

    I would never presume to speak authoritatively on Catholicism or any other religious faith or tradition--except my own. If I want to learn about Catholicism, I will go to a priest for correct information. Why don't you try that sometimes?
    I have, and they have reported the same teaching you have that you can lose salvation after new birth. By slight of hand you are trying to get out of the fact you have the same false teaching of salvation by works as the Roman Church-religious Rome! The great harlot that sits on the beast of nations that makes them drunk with the wine of the wrath of her fornications (Rev. 14.8). How is your cult any different?

    "He wants you to keep His commandments. To practice discipleship. To repent of sins. To strive for perfection (Matt 5:48), although knowing we cannot achieve such in this life. But, through the grace of Christ, we can accomplish all things--eventually. We must endure to the end (Matt 10:22, 24:13 & Mark 13:13).
    We don't endure to the end because we could lose salvation tomorrow. We endure to the end because there is the matter of rewards and loss of rewards of the coming millennial kingdom. Of course, if you alter God's word and you don't believe in the millennial reign of Christ on earth, and are all busy thinking about what planet you are going to rule over, that would explain some of your confusion. Christians never taught planet rulership. You're deceived as deceived can be. See Matt. 10.22, 24.13, Mark 13.13. To "endureth to the end" is to receive that reward, just as Paul thought; never did he think he could lose eternal life. So you, as a Mormon, must have a false faith.

    What's the rush?

    You'll understand when you get older.
    I don't work for Satan, but you do. God prefers you learn to wait on the Lord, stop trying to move ahead of Him. That was the problem at the fall of Adam and Eve. It is not that God didn't want them to have knowledge, but all in good time. Patience. "Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev. 3.10).

    The problem has nothing to do with age, but the fact that you don't want to be saved God's way. Like William Lane Craig you work so hard for your salvation? Why? Because you don't really know if you are saved. See my video I did here explain this.

    Wait on the Lord and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit.

    Indeed, I do! But, I thought you don't believe in subjective feelings?
    Why is waiting on the Lord and following the leading of the Holy Spirit subjective feelings? The Holy Spirit works in man's spirit; there is where you follow His leading, not in your outerman's feelings. Only then will what you received in your spirit communicate to the feelings and mind and will the renewal of your soul. I believe you wait on that "passive" will for the evil spirit to enter and guide in you Mormonism because you worship multiple uncreated gods, which is logistically impossible. As you said before, you will is "passive" for entrance and strongholds to be gained by that nefarious working of Satan. There can only be one uncreated Creator. Neither were you intelligence in eternity past. You did not always exist. God created you. God is the Intelligent Designer.

    An unsaved person's views seem to take on the particular predisposition of his flesh. The holder of the non-OSAS view naturally tends to be strong-willed, but the Bible says not by the will of man nor the will of the flesh is one saved. "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1.13).

    Jesus taught: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved (Mark 16:16).
    But you don't believeth, for you worship multiple uncreated beings, not one uncreated Being, God of the Bible. Christians and ancient Israel were monotheist, not tritheist or polytheist. Therefore, we can conclude confidently, you were baptized by the evil spirit and entered into Satanic grace by Joseph Smith who if he didn't lie to you was certainly deceived and wanted to worship that evil spirit because that was his choice to try to alter God's word. He failed.

    An unsaved person's views seem to take on the particular predisposition of his flesh. The holder of the non-OSAS view naturally tends to be strong-willed, but the Bible says not by the will of man nor the will of the flesh is one saved. "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1.13).

    This becomes your point of pride. But it is not spiritual reality. We are saved by faith, not by works, lest any man should boast. You're boasting of your will, even though it is under "passivity." You have a strong will to will works, but it is passive, because this is not God's will to passively receive salvation, but you must receive Christ for life, not for a few years later with the possibility you could lose it after. That is not true salvation.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Yancey
    I have assurance of my salvation--if I stay within the gospel covenant provided by the grace of Jesus.
    Yes, that is the Roman Church's teaching of non-OSAS, but it is false because Christ guarantees, "him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (John 6.37).

    There is only one redeemer of mankind, and that is Jesus Christ. So, these verses are saying that there is only one savior, Jesus Christ.
    God is not only saying He is Redeemer but One Being: "I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me...besides me there is no saviour" (Is. 43.9-10). "Is there a God besides me? yea, there is no Rock; I know not any" (Is. 44.8).

    I believe in repentance, therefore I know I am a sinner.
    But your repentance is not to Christ but to Satan, because Satan tells you that you can lose salvation tomorrow and that you always existed or that God is gods. God is One Being. You were created. There was a time before when you never existed. If you are saved, you will be resurrected for the New City in the New Earth with all God's sons and daughters. If you are not saved, you will go to Hell. If you overcome in Christ, you will return to reign with Him on Earth for the 1000 years: "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" (Rev. 20.4). If you are fleshly Christian, you will lose that reward in outer darkness: "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matt. 25.30); once that time has passed, then you will be ready for the New City.

    Where do you get the notion that Mormons believe we can 'save' ourselves?
    I realize from your perspective you don't think you are saving yourself, but from a conscience in Christ quickened by the Holy Spirit that Christians have, you show yourself trying to save yourself, because salvation is by works, that is to say, if your works are not up to par, you can lose salvation. But the Bible says eternal life is not by works: "by grace are ye saved, through faith;...not of works" (Eph. 2.8-9); "But to him that worketh not, but believeth..." (Rom. 4.5).

    You fail to mention verse 22 in that same chapter.
    The temptation "you will become just like God" (Gen. 3.5) did not happen at the fall nor is it ever going to happen. That is not the same thing as verse 22: "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever." To know good and evil is not the same thing to become like God in the way the serpent suggested. The kind that the serpent proposed was more than just knowing good and evil. Unless and "except ye repent" of all to do with Mormonism, "ye shall all likewise perish" (Luke 13.5).

    Same old problems that separates you from Christians:

    1) Neither can you be born-again by works nor lose the new life by works. You can lose rewards, but you can't lose life. Therefore, your salvation is false, because it is by works. Works are for overcoming, not to determine eternal life. You don't have the comfort Christians have, because you can never really know if you will end up unsaved, thus you really don't know if you are saved now. Naturally, a false salvation will be unsettling. That's why non-OSASers work so hard for their salvation, because they really don't know. They are trying to compensate for the regeneration of the spirit.

    2) Claiming God is gods. There is only One uncreated Creator. If you want another being in the Godhead, you will have to find it unequivocally in Scripture, otherwise, the humble position to take without reading into the text is God is One uncreated Being. By being humble and repenting before God, unassuming, He will receive you into His fold.

    3) Claiming you always existed in spirit form or intelligence is impossible since you are a created being. Scripture never allows for you always existing. Moreover, the universe was created, so the only One that was always existing was God, not man.

    4) Denying the millennial kingdom (Rev. 20.2-7), which is accountability for believers, the time of recompense. And you deny the New City and New Earth for other worlds.

    5) Claiming Jesus is the brother of the Devil. God has no brother. God is uncreated. Satan use to be Lucifer and Lucifer is a created being. Jesus is uncreated with the Father because they are One Being with the Spirit.

  10. #10
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    Default Logical Fallacies in Mormonism


    "As the Apostle Paul wrote, God is the Father of all. That means that all beings were created by God and are His spirit children. Christ, however, was the only begotten in the flesh, and we worship Him as the Son of God and the Savior of mankind." (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, "Answering Media Questions About Jesus and Satan," Press release: 12 December 2007.)

    If Jesus was created by God, then He is not God. Yet Mormons call Jesus God. Isn't that a contradiction? Christians believe that Jesus is both uncreated God and the Son of God. Son of God is the form Jesus took on when He entered His creation, born of a virgin. The Bible says, "Though he was God, he did not demand and cling to his rights as God" (Phil. 2.6 NLT) or "who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped" (ASV). To be equal with God is to be God, not created.

    I was begotten of the flesh as all humans are, so how is Jesus who is a created being according to Mormonism, the only begotten of the flesh? He is the only begotten of the flesh in Christianity because He is uncreated in the Trinity, entering into creation, but I don't see how Jesus can be the only begotten in the flesh, for humans are born in the flesh too. The Father was not begotten of the flesh, nor was the Spirit. Only the Son. And I really don't consider myself a spirit child, for I am not a spirit. I am a "living soul" with a spirit and body (Gen. 2.7; Heb. 4.12;1 Thess. 5.23). Angels are spirits.

    There is nothing but logical fallacies in Mormonism. You can read the Bible without the Holy Spirit and make it into anything you like. Obviously, that is why there are so many denomination, sects and cults.

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