Romans 9 is About Israel Rebelling Against God's Hardening

[Faithful]

Robert Breaker praised Jonathan Edwards but Edwards was a Calvinist even though Robert is not a Calvinist.

Sometimes he says some things that Calvinists say. For example, Breaker said "You need to be born-again to be saved" (26:25 in this video). In other words, he says you have to be irresistibly regenerated to be saved. Or, he'll say Jesus won't love you until you get saved. Slip of the tongue.



"And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh" (Jude 1.22,23).

Right after God says that He hates Esau for giving up his birthright, the response by the fallen Israelite is to say, As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid" (Rom. 9.13,14). He thinks it is unfair for God to hate even some of the children of Isaac. There is no love without hate. If someone is trying to steal your wife do you hate that person? Paul is showing God's sovereignty in Rom. 9. What He does is just and right always. It is not a defense of Calvinism. How silly! Arminians are not the objector here.

Right after Rom. 9 talks about hardening by God in verse 18, verse 19 asks who resists God's will? "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye" (Acts 7.51). Israel is resisting God's will. They rejected their Messiah and their Temple will be destroyed 70 AD.

Verse 21 is talking about God's Judicial Hardening with the hardened clump of clay. Does not God have the right to harden those who rebel against Him that they then might come to Christ? The rebellious Jews are complaining about God's wrath. His wrath would not have been needed if the Jews accepted their Messiah.

[Faithful]

I disagree with Robert's claim the Jews that will be saved get in one way and the Gentiles get saved another way by the gospel. He said at the 35:00 mark that "the Jews get in today [one way] and we [Gentiles] get in another way through the gospel." So there are Jews who get saved another way, not by the gospel? Weird.

Robert misread Romans 9.32 "Why not? Because they were trying to get right with God by keeping the law instead of by trusting in him. They stumbled over the great rock in their path." He said that the Jews could attain righteousness by trying to keep the law in his KJV version which reads "Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone." Verse 32 doesn't say righteousness can be attained by keeping the law, but that that is what they tried to do. Just go back to verse 31 which reads, "But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness." But Deut.25 says, "For we will be counted as righteous when we obey all the commands the LORD our God has given us." In the OT Abel gave an offering proper to God to be saved. He didn't have to work for it. I believe God says we are counted as righteous for keeping the law if we keep the law, but nobody was able to keep the law so nobody was counted righteous for trying to keep the law. "For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are" (Rom. 3.20). This was true in their day in the OT and true today. So salvation was always by faith back then and today.

Robert says today if you get saved you go straight to heaven. Do you really? I thought Acts 2.34 says nobody is in heaven yet, not even God a man after God's own heart. When a person dies whether in the OT or NT they go down to the grave which is Hades or Sheol. There is good side (Abraham's bosom) and a bad side (Rich man went).

"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved" (Rom. 10.1). So definitely chapter 9 is about Israel for the most part. In the original there were no verses and chapters. "For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh" (Rom. 9.3). Chapter 10 then naturally leads into salvation for everyone today.

The most important thing for me to notice was Romans 3:20. I believe under the OT nobody could keep the law so it was not counted as righteous to anyone; therefore salvation was always still by faith even back then. I do not believe the Jews at the time of Christ were saved another way. Just because the OT was heavily laden with rituals and laws doesn't change the fact that salvation was still by faith. The law simply shows nobody can keep it so we need Christ. The sacrifices were simply a shadow of things to come. The sacrifices had to be repeated because they only applied to the time period they were allotted for. Even still nobody kept them completely properly so it was never counted as righteous to them. Salvation was still by faith as exhibited by Abel giving a free will offering to the Lord and not by works of slitting animal's throats.

[James]

To me it is interesting because Romans 9 has nothing at all to do with the precepts of Calvinism. If anything it is supporting OSAS Arminianism because the Jews were blamed for not believing. Therefore, they were responsible for accepting the Lord so they must have had sufficient grace to have the free choice. God wouldn't tell them to do something if they could not do it. Otherwise He would be sadistic. Ultimately, Calvinism is a faith in sadism and abuse. And who followed the precepts of Calvinism more than Hitler did?

The Bible was written a long time ago so it is likely they were talking to the Jews more than we think before moving onto the Gentiles. Also, it's amazing how Calvinists take this as their centerpiece chapter of the entire Bible, but with a careful reading you can see it has nothing to do with Calvinism, none whatsoever, and only incidentally supports OSAS Arminian through implications. It really is about Judicial Hardening and the Noble Cause.

This has been very edifying for me, more than I expected.

The reason why Romans 9 can be a bit confusing is because verses 6-13 need to be delineated into 3 seeks: 1) Abraham, Isaac and the 12 Tribes and 12 Patriarchs; 2) the line of Ishmael and Esau; and 3) the spiritual seed for those who believe in Christ. So when someone speaks of the seed if they are not careful they conflate 2 or more of these seeds. The 12 Tribes were for the nation of Israel to stay together for the promises of Israel and their works they are to perform (it doesn't mean they are automatically the spiritual seed). Juda was the seed of Jacob whom Jesus would be born through, not through Joseph even though Joseph was more pure than Judah.

It almost makes you think Paul could have explained this better, or maybe the translation into English is not as clear. Either way you get the point: 3 seeds.

[everstill]

Romans 9 is awesome.

The first part is about the 3 different kinds of seed. Then the complaint is issued why doesn't God provide salvation through the whole line of Abraham and Isaac? He says its not fair. God says what He is doing is perfect. Then we see the spiritual seed which is also given to the Gentiles whoever places their trust in the Cornerstone.

I can't remember who said it, but the Bible was written a long time ago, meaning, they are often referencing the Jews and how they have forsaken the Lord. Be careful how you read. This being Calvinists favorite chapter, my advice would be, take the lens of Calvinism off and read as it is intended.

The Calvinist will say the clay is not Israel but Jeremiah says it is: [Jer 18:5-12 NLT] 4 But the jar he was making did not turn out as he had hoped, so he crushed it into a lump of clay again and started over. 5 Then the LORD gave me this message: 6 "O Israel, can I not do to you as this potter has done to his clay? As the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in my hand. 7 If I announce that a certain nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down, and destroyed, 8 but then that nation renounces its evil ways, I will not destroy it as I had planned. 9 And if I announce that I will plant and build up a certain nation or kingdom, 10 but then that nation turns to evil and refuses to obey me, I will not bless it as I said I would. 11 "Therefore, Jeremiah, go and warn all Judah and Jerusalem. Say to them, 'This is what the LORD says: I am planning disaster for you instead of good. So turn from your evil ways, each of you, and do what is right.'" 12 But the people replied, "Don't waste your breath. We will continue to live as we want to, stubbornly following our own evil desires."

So God breaks a chunk of clay off the original clay in Romans 9. These are the Jews with the Noble Cause of the gospel of salvation.