The Law of Conservation of Mass God Created from Out of Himself - Helping Mormons

[Parture]

FairMormon.Org

These are my opinions and do not necessarily represent FairMormon or the LDS church.

In monotheism of Christianity God was alone from everlasting and nothing beside God (no nature/matter/intelligences/material/etc), but not in Mormonism.

This statement is not Biblical. Do you have a scriptural reference for why you believe this? When you say that God was alone, do you mean the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit, or all three of them? Genesis chapter 1 says "let us make man in our image." The ancient Jews believed (as Mormons do) that in the beginning there was a council of gods.

The Jews did not believe in a council of gods. They believed there were no such thing as gods, they were just idols made up by men. Elohim is the Trinity; if not then simply speaking of majesty.

The law of the conservation of mass states that mass cannot be created or destroyed. This fits with the Mormon belief that God organized existing matter to create the universe. Some essence of our being has always existed.

The law of conservation of mass allows for God who is infinitely great to bring things into being from Himself so nature did not always need to exist as you surmised. No essence of your being ever existed before God created you. By placing yourself alongside God feeds pride and debases God to a lesser being so you don't receive salvation from God who is optimally great.

Mormons believe that all people are spirit children of God and that we lived with him before we were born. I find this to be a wonderful teaching that makes sense to me as well as a number of non-Mormons I have talked to, and it is hinted at several times in the Bible, yet no other church believes it. You are correct that Mormon belief is different from traditional Christianity. That is why we send missionaries throughout the world to share our message with everyone we can.

It's never hinted at in the Bible we lived with God before being born. It's simply the romance of the gods such as Zeus and the gods of eastern religions. It's a way to exalt self. Whereas Christianity is monotheistic, that is to say, God was alone from everlasting before time and space in His 3 Persons. As the Bible says there is none beside Him, and no gods after Him. What you are doing to yourself is rejecting the atonement of Christ because you have turned Jesus into a lesser being who can never save. Only the uncreated Creator has that power to redeem. Since you are sending missionaries out, you are sending men to their doom and others. And isn't that Satan's ultimate objective? The Church did not disappear for 18 centuries.

And there was nothing beside God before time and space.

I believe that God is a physical being who interacts with others, and therefore he must exist in time and space. It makes no sense to me that it could be otherwise.

Since the Bible says God the Father is spirit and that you can't see Him then He is not a physical being. He can and does exist outside of time and space in the Trinity. This is not so hard to understand as you think. Think of yourself as a stick figure on a piece of paper. He can see 2 dimensions. A cube is 3 dimensions. So when the cube is presented, the stick figure can only see one side or a square. He doesn't see the full cube (he can't) because the cube is in 3 dimensions. So it is with the 3 Persons of the Trinity. There is the other problem posed of your faith that if God the Father was once a man who became a God and the God that created that man was once a man, and this goes on ad infinitum in the past, you have the same problem atheists have because if there was this infinite regress of cause and effects, you would have happened already having had an eternity to do so. So nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, being uncreated. This uncreated Creator, the Trinity, is whom we call God. Mormons are really supernatural atheists.

And Jesus created all things, being God (John 1.1) in the Trinity.

I agree that Jesus is God and created the world under the direction of his Father.

Jesus didn't just create the world, He created all things. He didn't even create only on the instruction of the Father for John 1.3 says "All things were made by him." Always remember, you redefine what God is so you don't agree that Jesus is God. God is not multiple beings. That's if anything polytheism. God is one Being. That's traditional monotheism even in other faiths. Evil the Devil knows God is One Being. There are not some things Jesus did not create. He created all things so there cannot be these things you call material/matter/intelligences that always existed alongside God.

So how can the Jesus of Mormonism be the Jesus of Christianity?

The Jesus of Mormonism is God incarnate who was born to the virgin Mary, worked many mighty miracles such as healing the sick and raising the dead, taught many important things such as those found in the Sermon on the Mount, and then suffered for all of our sins, was crucified on the cross, buried in a tomb, and was the first to be resurrected. He is our Savior and Redeemer and the Messiah. Is this this the same Jesus that you believe in?

The reason why your Jesus is not the same Jesus because you redefine all these terms, but don't tell people until later. Jesus God incarnate is not a separate being from the Father or the Spirit. They are One Being in 3 Persons, co-equal like Phil. 2 says, co-inherent, one substances, each Person distinct, but not separate. Whereas your incarnation is relegated to being something alongside God in the eternity of the past. Surely you can see God alone from everlasting in His 3 Persons is all-knowing, all-powerful and everywhere present when He cannot be if He is limited by material/matter/intelligences that always existed also and if He was not alone before time and space. See the problem? It's not solvable because Mormonism is just a cult that came 18 centuries later. And so you are receiving an atonement that lacks the all-inclusiveness and effectiveness in Christ.

Lastly, in Christianity when a person is born-again they can never go to Hell, but in Mormonism after being saved you can still go to Hell as an apostate Mormon and your works determine which heaven you go to.

Most Christians do not believe in the Calvinist teaching of "once saved, always saved" (perseverance of the Saints), and there is no Biblical evidence for this, so Mormons reject it as do many other Christians. Only a certain segment of Protestants believe this. I'm curious as to your reason for believing it. Just because a person starts on the path toward God does not mean that they can't choose to leave that path and reject God. I have seen this happen countless times.

Christians are not Calvinists. We know that Calvinists are going to Hell. But you are overlooking OSAS that is not Calvinistic, but OSAS Arminian. In other words, instead of being once saved always saved irresistibly a person can be once saved always saved by giving their lives to the God who keeps, for we don't even have in our own strength once saved to keep ourselves. saved. So John 10.28 says, "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." As an aside Calvinists are confused because they teach "perseverance" which is works; they are suppose to believe in irresistible works. What you are teaching is what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, that great harlot of religious Rome that makes drunk the nations with the wine of the wrath of her fornications. Roman Catholics are Remonstrants. But the Bible teaches salvation is not by works lest anyone should boast. So there are not different heavens to go to based on your works. What you have seen countless times is a person who was never saved to begin with because if it was real it would have remained. Christians are not Remonstrants like you and the RCC, but nor are we Calvinists. We are the ones who were killed by the Roman Catholic Church and by that Protestant Pope of Geneva John Calvin. We are a "little flock" (Luke 12.32). The RCC is a great harlot, Mormons are a little harlot. Technically though Mormons are not even in Christendom. Many in Christendom are not saved, but Mormons are not even in that sphere as they are so aberrant.

Mormons have a very different concept of hell as compared to traditional Christianity, and I believe that virtually all people who have every lived on the earth will eventually go to heaven. The Bible makes it very clear that we should live our lives according to the commandments God has given us. As we do so, we will become more like Christ and we will be blessed and rewarded as we follow him. That does not mean that we can save ourselves through our works.

I don't believe most Mormons believe in Universalism for they do believe that Hell is a place of eternal separation from God even though in Mormonism very few go there. This speaks to the low standards in Mormonism if almost everyone is saved. But you believe in Universalism which has major problems such as you will be sharing a bunk bed with Hitler, Stalin, Mao, rapists and other sadistic evil people who never repent. Firstly, the Bible teaches there is no rest day or night forever in Hell where the worm never dies. Secondly, free will is not truly free if you don't have the free choice to reject God. Once resurrected a person will not change their mind. That's why I have never met anyone past the age of 40 (though there may be a few) who ever gave their life to Christ because they had more than enough time. Before you can receive this new life and work in that new life, you need to be born-again. The only way for you to be born-again is if you accept who Jesus truly is and receive what He did for you. You don't actually receive what He did for you turn Him into a false Christ and a lesser being which, of course, is what you have done.

But in Christianity, works don't save or give you a standing in the pillars of the New City.

I don't understand this statement. Maybe you can clarify.

After the millennial kingdom, rewards are done away with. Everyone will be where they belong in the New City so it would be unjust to have multiple different heavens as in Mormonism. It reeks survival of the fittest. There is only one heaven and Rev. 21 heaven and earth come together in the New City on the New Earth. Period. There is one thing I haven't told you about, about who lives outside the New City on the New Earth who go through the 12 gates to receive renewal from the Tree of Life, but I will save that for another time.

Works in Christianity only are rewarded when Jesus returns to reign over the nations for 1000 years.

I agree that judgment day will occur after the second coming of Christ during or after his Millennial reign. But I have a question for you. If you believe that you are going to heaven, and you believe that you will be rewarded for your works, as you state here, do you believe that different people will receive different levels of rewards? If so, doesn't that mean that there will be different levels of heaven? Earlier you criticized Mormons for believing this, but it sounds like you must believe the same thing. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Judgment Seat is for Christians when He returns. The Great White Throne is after the millennial kingdom and judges the unsaved. Paul distinguishes spiritual and carnal Christians. Spiritual Christians receive the reward of returning (Jude 14,15) with Christ to reign over the nations (Rev. 2.26,27) for 1000 years (20.4-6). Think of that reward being presidents, prime ministers, ministers, ombudsmen, even head of businesses because knowledge is not as important as conscience. A better conscience in charge makes things run better. The millennial kingdom is not heaven. This is why the millennial kingdom is called the "time of recompense".

I can't get Mormonism to agree with Christianity.

If by Christianity you mean traditional Christianity of the Catholic, Orthodox, or one of the many Protestant varieties, then I would absolutely agree with you! Mormonism is not the same as traditional, creedal Christianity. We make the claim that we are more similar to the original Christianity as taught by Jesus and his apostles than any other church, and there is much evidence to support this view. We are a restoration of the ancient church in these latter days, and since we definitely believe in Jesus Christ, we definitely consider ourselves to be Christians.

Think of an orthodox Christianity that sticks with the Bible, after all the Bible says don't say "I of Cephas" (denominationalism), "I of Apollos", don't even say "I of Jesus" (congregationalism). In the Bible the church is a locality of believers in a region of church localities so you see the church of Jerusalem in the churches of Judea, the church of Antioch in the churches Syria, or the church of Dallas in the churches of Texas. If someone asks what church you belong to, speaking to Christians, say you belong to the church <your town> in the churches of <your state or province>. Even where 2 or 3 are gathered in His name. This treats the church as a locality responsible unto itself.

As aberrant as the Roman Catholics and Protestants are in all their varieties they are still closer to traditional orthodox Christianity than Mormon will ever be because they are Monotheistic. Mormons are the most polytheistic and henotheistic religion on the planet. I know you want to think you are Christian, but you are so far away. You are very much like atheists, but call yourselves supernatural atheists. Mormons are not restoring anything, you're just a cult headed up by a con artist Joseph Smith. The Church has always been fine the past 20 centuries. It did not disappear. And think how evil that would be that people could not get saved for 18 centuries. You definitely do not believe in Jesus Christ because Jesus created all things and only the uncreated Creator can atone for sins; anything else is insufficient and deficient. Humble yourself to the One True God who's power and authority in being alone from everlasting with nothing beside Him, no gods, nothing. By the way Rev. 17.16 says a dirty nuclear bomb will blow up the Vatican the smallest city in the world.

Therefore, Mormons must be wrong about thinking that the Church disappeared for 18 centuries. That would be crazy since people couldn't get saved for 18 centuries.

The church did not disappear for 18 centuries. The priesthood authority to perform saving ordinances was lost, and some doctrines were corrupted, but there are many, many people who lived during that time who will receive salvation. I'm curious what your belief is regarding what a person must do to be saved. You seem to think that the Church is necessary for salvation, and I agree with you, but many evangelical Protestants believe that confessing Christ is all that is required. If it's important to have a church, how do you know which church it should be?

There were no doctrines that were corrupted. That's what a cult would say. I can help you with each one you hold precious. The Bible remains intact. You are actually saying the Church disappeared because the body of Christ is a royal priesthood and for 18 centuries you claim it was without priesthood. If you are not a royal priesthood, you're not saved. All believers are a royal priesthood. You're trying to Judaize Christianity by having an intermediary other than Jesus. Saving ordinances do not exist, for anyone can come to Christ without your alleged ordinances. Baptism does not save; rather, baptism is symbolic of burial and resurrection with Christ and coming out of the world up out of the water with Jesus. It is performed with or without water and it is experiential and for service having a sense you no longer belong to this world like a sojourner. All you need to be saved is to accept Jesus so nobody is without excuse. The church is for fellowship and to draw people to Christ. The solution for you is to relinquish the idea you need big glorious buildings with the Pentagram on them calling down the power of Satan, without any crosses, and just accept walking to the mall, or at the gym, or perhaps a small gather with friends on your street that there the church. In the OT the groups broken up into counted as 50 individuals. This does not preclude 3000 or 5000 together at one time, but it is less optimal.

You say that it would be crazy if people couldn't be saved for 18 centuries, and I would agree with you. But I have a question. What do you think about all of the people who lived for several thousand years before Jesus was born? What about all of the people who have lived who have never even heard of Jesus? Do they have any chance of being saved? The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only church I know of that claims that every single person will have a full and equal opportunity for salvation, regardless of when or where they lived. Most Christians believe that all of those people are going to hell, but I don't see a just and merciful God doing that. He wants us all to return to live with him forever.

Firstly, those who were looking to their Messiah as their suffering servant whose hands would be pierced in Is. 53 are no doubt saved. But someone on a remote island who never heard of Jesus, yet rejected the idols worshiped as gods, and believed in the God of the mountains and stars surely if he was presented Christ would accept Him whole heartedly. As you see the Father you see the Son, and as you see the Son you see the Father for with the Holy Spirit they are the Trinity. Father is I AM and Alpha and Omega, and Jesus said the same about Himself. Test yourself. Ask yourself how would the word of God need to be worded to convince you in the Triune God? I find that the Bible expresses it so many ways in so many places it would be overly redundant to do more than what the Bible has already done to make the point. Hell is eternally rejecting the Triune God, because those who reject the Triune God can't be in heaven since there is no sin corrupting people with a lie and not humbling yourself to God with the truth. You want to think Christians believe people who receive common grace and have not heard the special grace of the gospel are going to Hell, but that's not what we believe. A merciful God is no a God who is going to send you to different heavens based on your works, nor is God merciful in sending you to Hell after you were saved. As Dave Hunt said, that would be a weird kind of salvation if you get saved, lose it, get it back and lose it again. God will just throw the whole of Mormons in Hell, and actually, you lock yourself in Hell from the inside because you admit you will never accept the Triune God. So be it.

But the Bible says Hell can't come against the Church even though Mormons think it had.

Let me ask you a question, Troy. As a Protestant, do you believe that the Catholic Church is the true church that Jesus established? If your answer is no, then that means that the original church must have become corrupted or changed, because the Catholic Church was the only church for many centuries. If your answer is yes, then why do you subscribe to Protestant beliefs that are different from the Catholic Church? My point is that both Mormons and Protestants believe that the original church fell into apostasy. Protestants believe that they can get back to the original truth by correctly interpreting the Bible, but which of the hundreds of Protestant interpretations is correct? Mormons believe that the only way to return to the authority and purity of the original church was for God to restore it through a prophet and through continuing revelation. I would invite you to seriously consider this possibility.

Mike L.

You're misreading the Bible. In Rev. 2 & 3 we see a review of the problems the Church will go through for the past 20 centuries. The first church which was in the first century is Ephesus. They lost their "first love". The 2nd century church was called Smyrna. God told them to hold on for 10 days more as they were heavily martyred. The 3rd century church was called Pergamum. Their mistake was marrying church and state under Constantine. These 3 churches passed, but the next 4 after starting remained even to today. The 4th church period was Thyatira with Jezebel. She represents the beginning days of the Roman Catholic Church. She was a mustard seed but then turned into a great big tree with branches birds landed on like demons. The next church period was called Sardis representing revivals, but like a glass a water refilled with less and less water each time. It became in the 15th century reemphasizing justification by faith. Of course Calvinist latch onto that and call themselves Reformed which is a misnomer since the church doesn't need reforming. It had all the tools it always had. Luther was not saved because he was a Calvinist like Augustine before him. The 6th church period was Philadelphia, brotherly love. They were in the 1830s called the Brethren Movement. This was a name given to them, but in actuality they just wanted to be called Christians; that alone distinguished them as Philadelphia. And the last church period we are in now at the tail end of today is Laodicea. They are considered neither hot nor cold, just lukewarm. For a deeper study of the 7 church periods from a Christian who had the highest IQ in Christendom,

7 Church Periods

Protestants do not believe the Church fell into apostasy, for the church has always been there as a church locality in a region of churches. With so much corruption go on around the world and in Christendom, the little flock remained true. Apostles are directly commissioned by God to appoint Elders of each church locality, and in turn those Elders approve the Elders of the many meeting places in a locality. The church is a locality of believers responsible unto itself and does not need a big show and pomp like Mormons. Praise the Lord!

None of the 150 sects of the cult of Mormonism are true, but those who are truly born-again Christians have no denomination. Your approach is all wrong. You are making the same mistake Joseph Smith made when he asked what is the correct church? Satan gave him the wrong answer. When you begin to see the church as a locality of believers and they as a unit are responsible to themselves, you won't need to be part of the Mormon cult. You will try to make your church locality run better the race (first get saved though). You'll stop looking to the outer and walk in the inner sanctuary of your spirit receiving intuitive revelation in your spirit by the Holy Spirit. There are Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Teachers/Shepherds every century as workers for the Church. But the prophet you follow is a false prophet. The New Jerusalem was never built in west Missouri within a generation and your Jesus never returned in 1891 as Joseph Smith promised. Besides Missouri is only about 264 x 264 miles. The New Jerusalem in Rev. 21 is 1379 x 1379 miles. Smith didn't understand this. For him it was always about west vs. east. The center from where Jesus will reign is the 3rd Temple in Jerusalem for 1000 years, not America. The sooner you accept this the sooner you can begin to make progress in your life towards who Jesus really is.

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You seem to think that virtually everyone is going to hell, but somehow you alone has figured out the correct way, something that apparently only you are able to figure out. Interestingly, you accuse Mormons of requiring works for salvation, but based on what I hear you saying, if a person has any belief that you consider to be incorrect, they are going to hell. Your version of salvation is virtually impossible to obtain, while Mormons believe that almost everyone is going to heaven (one of the kingdoms of glory), regardless of what they have done or believe, a free gift through the atonement of Christ.

The New City is 1379 x 1379 miles in Rev. 21. That's about the size of India or half the size of USA. I figure at least a billion souls could fit comfortably in that space so I believe at least 1 billion souls are saved. Why is salvation impossible to attain when all you have to do is come to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior? And when we speak of Savior we don't mean some guy who is a spirit brother of Satan or is not the 2nd Person of the Trinity and did not create all things. Such a lesser being is not sufficient to save. It's really deficient. To atone for sins He must be the uncreated Creator no less, before time and space, alone from the everlasting with nothing existing beside Him. Why is that so difficult to you? Is it because you have to let go of self and place your trust in Him? Most people reject Christ and your faith then irresistibly makes them saved? But that's not what the Bible teaches. It teaches those who are saved are a "little flock" (Luke 12.32) and the gate to Hell is wide. Yours is a large flock under the delusion almost everyone is saved so you can place yourself in that great swath. Remember, yours is salvation by works because depending on your works you will go to a different heaven. So these are not kingdoms of glory but kingdoms of Satan. Satan wants you to believe what you believe so you reject the Lord.

You keep mentioning the Triune God. If this belief were required for salvation, then why is it that Jesus never said a thing about it? Why did Paul never say a thing about it? Why is is not mentioned in the Bible? Mormons believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one, as found in the Book of Mormon:

"And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen." (2 Nephi 31:21)

John chapter 17 makes it clear the way in which they are one. Jesus prays to his Father and asks that the apostles may be one as he and the Father are one. Were the apostles one being? No, but they were united.

Why does Jesus pray to the Father if the Trinity is true? Because He is showing perfect obedience to show us how to live. That which is born of the flesh is flesh so everyone is a sinner except Jesus because Jesus is the 2nd Person of the Trinity. Only He could keep the law perfectly.

If someone truly gave their life to Christ they are accepting the Trinity because when you see Jesus you see the Father. The reason someone would not accept the Trinity is because they worship a false Christ and are not saved. Jesus did speak of the Trinity. He said He is the great I AM just as the Father is. He said He is the Alpha and Omega just like the Father. Paul wrote about the Trinity that Jesus is God and that Jesus created all things. To create all things with the Father indicates the Trinity. All throughout the Bible we see the Trinity in operation. You quoted 2 Nephi 31:21 of BofM which teaches the Trinity of "one God". Why don't you accept what your own BofM says? The Father and Son, therefore, are one in being in John chapter 17, whereas those who follow the Lord are one in unity.

You say that God doesn't have a body. Then I guess you reject the resurrection, right? If you don't believe the resurrection occurred, then how can you call yourself a Christian? The Bible is clear that Jesus was resurrected with a tangible, physical, glorified body. He went to great lengths to show himself to others and so that they could feel him, and he even ate food to show that he had a body. If he doesn't have a body now, what happened to it? Did he die again? Was his resurrected body buried, or did he throw it away? That would be absurd. He is still resurrected, and therefore God has a body.

You mentioned God the Father had a body for that is what we were talking about before, but no He doesn't. Now you are shifting to Jesus. God the Father did not have physical sex with Mary. Jesus has a body because that is what was agreed by the 3 Persons of the Trinity for the purposes of creation and to be like us and pay the penalty on the cross. He was the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Christians believe in the resurrection, you're just getting carried away with your misunderstanding through your first mistaken assumption and misreading.

You say that God can't be seen. Tell that to the writers of the gospels. Tell that to the apostles and all of the eyewitnesses who claimed to see him. Tell that to Paul, who claimed that Jesus appeared to him after his death. Do you reject all of these accounts in the New Testament? Do you not believe that Jesus is God?

Who in the gospels say God the Father? Paul didn't say He saw God the Father. He saw God the Son. You're confusing yourself.

You say that Mormons are supernatural atheists. That is completely illogical. Mormons believe in God, and atheists don't believe in God. You say that Mormons are not Christians, but Mormons believe in Christ and can therefore call themselves Christians. Maybe you should start to take someone's word for it when they say they believe something rather than think that you know what they believe better than they do themselves.

How are you a supernatural atheist? By claiming God always existed while you always existed. Atheists believe such material/matter/intelligences always existed also apart from God. Mormons don't believe in Christ because the Christ you believe did not create all things and did not existed in the Godhead as One Being alone from everlasting before time and space, and like the Bible says, with nothing beside Him, no gods, nothing!!! So you degrade Jesus into a lesser being but a lesser being cannot atone for anything. I have already told you this. Many people believe many false Christs. We shouldn't shut our minds down as you suggest, but test the spirits and prove all things. Mormons hate double checking information, but that is the passivity you have been brought up in under the evil spirit of Mormo who bites children who are bad to put fear in you as you are growing up not to question anything.

You say that all believers are a royal priesthood. The Bible does not say that. The priesthood is bestowed by the laying on of hands by someone who already holds the priesthood. Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist because John was ordained by his father, a temple priest. The idea of the priesthood of all believers was a Protestant invention and was nowhere to be found in Christianity during the first 1500 years.

"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood" (1 Pet. 2.9). You're trying to Judaize Christianity. There is no special class of priesthood in the Bible and thus, no bestowing of such a class by laying on of hands. Laying on of hands rather is to join us experientially to the body of Christ and help give others the sense of the Holy Spirit in them. Under the law there was a priesthood but that has passed. It's fulfilment is in Christ the High Priest who shed His blood for the sins of the world. The things of the OT were just a shadow of things to come and a rehearsal for Jesus. During the church age those who were sinning were those who tried to create a special class of priesthood. There is not even in the Bible the pastoral system where some guy each week gets up on a pulpit.

You seem to be filled with much bitterness and anger toward anyone who doesn't believe as you do, and you don't seem to be trying very hard to understand other peoples' points of view. "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance." (Galatians 5:22-23) If I may make a suggestion to you, if you want to bring salvation to the souls of others by convincing them of the truthfulness of your beliefs, it doesn't help to insult them and call them names and tell them they're going to hell. God will be the judge, but in your online interactions, I don't see the fruits of a true Christian.

It's important to understand as part of the gospel of salvation that you are going to Hell, otherwise why would you think you need to get saved if not from Hell? I know you want to think I am angry, but I am not. You're really projecting your own anger and bitterness and so I know you by your fruit. I understand how you reject God. You keep repeating how your reject God for self. My heart hurts for you because I know with 100% certainty you are going to Hell, because you reject who Jesus is. As Matt. 10.32,33 says if you do not confess who Jesus is to others, He will deny you before the Father in heaven. Mark 8.38 says if you are ashamed of Him, He is ashamed of you. Matt. 12.30 says if you are not for Jesus you are against Him. Just think you are against Jesus forever, because forever you will reject Jesus created all things and that in Phil. 2 He is equal with the Father, and is the Alpha and Omega with the Father, and the great I AM with the Father, and only He can forgive sins, because He has authority existing before time and space. God is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient. He can't be any of these things if He was not alone from everlasting. Think about it.

God has already judged you in the Bible. He says you are "condemned already" (John 3.18). You won't see the fruit of your cult in me, only the fruit of the Spirit as a Christian. Praise the Lord!

We should keep talking but don't make me repeat myself, because it shows what I said is flying over your head that I have to repeat myself.

[Parture]

I believe what the Book of Mormon says. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God. In addition to the verse I quoted earlier, the Book of Mormon also says:

"And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one." (3 Nephi 11:36)

Just as Jesus prayed to his Father in John 17:21-23:

"That they may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."

I believe they are one, but that does not mean that they are the same personage. I think that you agree with me there. If you call that the Trinity, then I guess you could say that I believe in the Trinity. I just don't use that term because it isn't Biblical. If you want to use non-Biblical terms, that's fine with me.

"One God" is One Being so you don't believe the Trinity of God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit.

You are misrepresenting Christianity. Christians don't say the Trinity is the "same personage" but rather, 3 Persons. You're actually arguing against Modalism and Unitarianism, but that has always been rejected as heresy. The Trinity is Biblical since the Father is I AM and Jesus is I AM. You believe in the Trinity because you reject Jesus who is with God and is God (John 1.1).

Now as far as God having a body. Your position is that Mormons are not Christians because we believe God has a body. Now you can't have it both ways. If Jesus is God, as Mormons believe, then he either has a resurrected body or he doesn't. Do you stand by your statement that God does not have a body? If so, you are either rejecting the divinity of Christ or the resurrection. Which of those are you rejecting? Are you diminishing Jesus and saying that he isn't God? Or do you believe that the resurrection was a hoax? If so, it sounds sounds like you are not a true Christian. I believe that Jesus is God, and he has a resurrected body. Therefore God has a body. Since Jesus has a body, then the Father and the Holy Spirit are separate personages because they can't inhabit the same body as Jesus.

The same logic applies to your assertion that nobody has seen God. Jesus is God, and people have seen Jesus. Therefore, people have seen God. Also, you said "when you see Jesus you see the Father." If your statement is accepted as true, then you must be saying that people have seen the Father. So you are contradicting yourself. Which one is it, have people seen God, or haven't they?

You're confusing for the purposes of creation Jesus having a body and God the Father having a body (God the Father is spirit, has no body). God the Father does not have a body nor does the Holy Ghost. Furthermore, before time and space that Jesus created, He never had a body as the 2nd Person of the Trinity. It's not that hard to understand. What Christian do you know that does not believe the resurrection of Jesus? So why argue that? The 3 Persons of the Godhead are 3 Personages yet One Being. What you define as a Christian is not a Christian at all because a Christian believes in Monotheism that God was alone from everlasting before time and space, creating time and space. Even the Devil knows this. So what does that say of you? When we pray we pray to the Father through Jesus by the Holy Spirit. These are the 3 operations of the Triune God in relation with His children. The Holy Spirit indwells the newly born-again believer. Our relationship is with Jesus and our prays go up to the Father. It is no longer I that live, but Christ in me by the Holy Spirit.

In addition, the Bible does say that Stephen saw the Father and the Son at the same time. Acts 7:55-56:

"But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God."

It sounds to me like Stephen saw the Father. He also saw the resurrected Jesus at the same time. And they were standing next to each other. There is nothing that says that they are the same person. If it is possible for Stephen to have the heavens opened and see the Father and the Son while he was full of the Holy Ghost, why would it be impossible for the same thing to happen to Joseph Smith, at least theoretically. You are denying the omnipotence of God the Father. If he can do anything, then surely he can appear to someone if he wants to.

Stephen did not see the Father, but the glory of the Father. He saw Jesus but not the Father. No man can see the Father the Bible says. You are arguing for a contradiction in the Bible, but there is none. You're just misreading into it. Here also again you are arguing against Modalism when you said "they are [not] the same person". Christians are not Modalists. We are Trinitarian. Don't you know the difference? Joseph Smith didn't see anything. He just made it all up. When he is caught in so many lies you shouldn't assume he saw anything. You should believe it is just another lie. Smith contradicts the Bible. He never saw the Father. Period. God can't do anything unrighteous and being able to see the Father is unholy as so many passages describe it as such. God hide in the crevice so you won't die when God passes by. God would not have omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience if God always had a body or if there was material beside him, intelligences or matter, or whatever. Mormonism is a cult. Walk away and never look back like Lot. You can thank me later.

If all that is required for salvation is for me to accept Jesus as my Savior, then I have done that. Therefore, I am saved. And if it is true, as you claim, that "once saved, always saved," then there is no way that my salvation can be taken away from me. So how in the world can you say that you know with 100% certainty that I am going to hell? You don't know my heart. Only God can judge that. If Mormons accept Christ as their Savior, then by the standard evangelical definition of salvation, Mormons are saved! So why don't you just leave us alone rather than harassing us with your illogical rhetoric?

As a final note, of course God the Father did not have physical sex with Mary. Mary was a virgin.

You've revealed your heart to me already because you admit you will forever reject who Jesus truly is. What else can God do but send you to Hell then since you won't repent. God has judged your heart already and said you are "condemned already" (John 3.18). The standard of evangelical definition of salvation is not met. We are not harassing you anymore than you are harassing Christians by creating a cult and claiming the Church did not exist for 18 centuries and forgetting the founder of your cult was a con artist and a murderer.

How illogical it is to reject Jesus created all things when the Bible says Jesus created all things. How illogical it is to reject Jesus is the Great I AM and so is the Father. How illogical to invent and place material/matter/intelligences/etc. alongside God from everlasting even before time and space which thus, denies God was alone from everlasting and denies Jesus created all things. Only God alone occupies timeless spacelessness. You did not always exist so let that pride die right now. Get over yourself already.

Your God the Father is a physical being not a spirit so for him to conceive in Mary is physical sex. Mary never had sex with a physical Father. On the contrary, the Bible says God the Father is not a physical being so when the Holy Spirit conceived in Mary it was not physical sex.

[Parture]

Michael LeCheminant,

Question yourself are you really being rationale? The word of God has remained the same all this time. What you and JW's both share in common, cults that came along around the same time, is that you both reject the Trinity alone from everlasting, before time and space, and Jesus in the Trinity, created all things. If He created all things then there is no intelligences/atheist material/matter alongside God. At least you can see the atheism component of your faith to reject who God really is. Satan thinks he has found a loophole here with "intelligences" but the Bible still exposes it doesn't agree with passages of Scripture in which there are no gods, nothing, beside God alone from everlasting. Praise the Lord!

[Parture]

"I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose" (Gal. 2.21).

Do Mormons think they are saved by trying to keep the law or believe they can lose salvation by not keeping the law? It seems to me a Mormon believes, depending on his level of keeping the law, he will earn himself a different standing among the kingdoms and if he is really bad at keeping the law could find himself in Hell. But I thought salvation is not by works lest anyone should boast? Please enlighten me or correct me if you don't agree with what I said.

As always, I speak for myself and not for FairMormon or the Church. The questions you're asking are not easily answered. They have perplexed Christians for hundreds of years and are still being debated today. Just goggle "faith versus works controversy" and you'll see. I think Latter-day Saints have resolved this controversy better than any other religious group. Here's what I have written on this:

Those who generally ask questions about salvation most often have a different understanding of salvation, grace, and even faith itself than do Latter-day Saints. Without agreeing on common definitions of these terms, most discussions in this area will be futile. The scriptures use the terms save and salvation with differing meanings. Salvation may mean redemption from physical death, redemption from sin, redemption from sin and death, or in some instances eternal life with God. While most Protestants would generally define salvation as redemption from both death and sin, Latter-day Saints would add the receipt of exaltation to this definition. Exaltation by the LDS definition is the same as deification. Salvation without exaltation is, by the LDS definition, only partial salvation.

The term "grace" is likewise defined differently by Protestants and Latter-day Saints. Protestants generally define grace as the unmerited favor of God. This definition though brief, is somewhat confusing. It could, for example, exclude the need for any effort on the part of man. Most would agree that faith on our part is necessary for salvation. Protestants would also add that both repentance and a profession of faith in Jesus Christ are required to be saved. Thus, some effort is required.

Latter-day Saints define grace as God's "love, mercy, and condescension towards his children" (Mormon Doctrine, p. 338). We agree that salvation is granted by God as a result of true faith but, as James pointed out, true faith will always be coupled with works on our part (Jam. 2:17-20). The LDS Bible Dictionary contains the following informative statement concerning the relationship of grace and works:

It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice, that mankind will be raised in immortality, every person receiving his body from the grave in a condition of everlasting life. It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means. This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts.

We believe divine grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the fall of Adam and also because of man's weaknesses and shortcomings. However, grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation, "It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23). It is truly the grace of Jesus Christ that makes salvation possible.... (LDS Bible Dictionary, p. 697).

Beliefs concerning the concept of grace cover a spectrum between two doctrinal extremes. At these extremes there are two theological traps. The first being a belief in salvation by grace alone which might lead to the conclusion that obedience and good works are irrelevant. The second consists of a belief in salvation by works which could cause men to trust wholly in their own labors and genius, erroneously supposing that they will be rewarded hereafter solely upon their own achievements (see Robert L. Millet, By Grace Are We Saved, p. 4). Both of these beliefs are dangerous and potentially could cause us to fall short of exaltation.

The concept of salvation by grace through faith alone is today taught by some who refer to themselves as orthodox Protestants. Their misunderstanding of this doctrine stems from the fact that they have focused their attention on certain Pauline epistles to the exclusion of other New Testament teachings. Many Protestant sermons today continue to emphasize faith without works even though no Bible scripture specifically teaches that men are saved by faith alone.

The apostle Peter warned us that in the specific area of salvation, it is dangerous to rely solely on the epistles of Paul because these writing were difficult to understand and if misunderstood could lead to destruction (2 Pet. 3:15-16). One might think that this warning would be enough to keep readers of the scriptures from relying totally upon Paul's writings in this one area, but this is precisely what many Protestants have done. They cite scriptures in Paul's epistles to the Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians almost exclusively, in support of their doctrine of salvation and "wrest [struggle with]... the other [Old and New Testament] scriptures [which speak of works] unto their own destruction" (1 Pet. 3:16). See also page XX of this text for additional scriptural support regarding the importance of works.

In Paul's defense it should be pointed out that his emphasis on grace, like modern LDS emphasis on good works, was probably a reaction to the prevalent teachings of that day. In Paul's day, the Jewish converts were of the opinion that compliance with the Law of Moses was essential to justification (redemption from sin) and salvation (see Acts 13:39; Rom. 2:17; 3:19-28; Gal. 2:16; 3:11-14, 24). Although Paul's statements about justification at first seem contradictory (see Rom. 2:13; 3:20; and Rom. 2:6; Gal. 2:16), it is clear to Latter-day Saints that the Law of Moses was only a "schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ" (Gal. 3:24) who is the "author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Heb. 5:9) or in other words his gospel. Although the Law of Moses definitely does not justify men without Christ's atonement (2 Nephi 2:5-6, Mosiah 13:28), "the doers of the law shall be justified" (Rom. 2:13; see also Jam. 2:24) "through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24). Thus, according to Paul, we are expected to have faith coupled with righteousness in order to be justified before God and receive eternal life (Rom. 2:6-8; 14:17-18; 1 Tim. 6:18-19).

It is significant to note that the word grace, according to all four gospel writers, was never used by Jesus Christ. One would think that if grace alone were sufficient to salvation and exaltation then Christ would have taught us this important truth himself. Yet we search in vain for this doctrine among Christ's own sayings. On the other hand, Christ repeatedly emphasized the importance of obedience to gospel teachings and the necessity of good works on our part (Matt. 5:16; 7:21-23; 11:21-23; 16:27; 25:46; Mark 10:17-21; 12:28-34; Luke 7:31-38; 10:25-28; 11:28; 13:3, 24-27; 14:12-14; John 5:29; 7:17; 8:31-34; 13:34-35; 14:15, 21; 15:10). Why should he do so if obedience and good works were unnecessary?

Because members and missionaries of the LDS Church may at times emphasize the importance of obedience and works, some might think that the concept of grace is not part of LDS theology. References to grace are found throughout LDS scriptures and writings. The Book of Mormon speaks of grace at least 35 times and the Doctrine and Covenants 28 times.

We find Lehi, the first Book of Mormon prophet teaching, "There is no flesh can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah" (2 Nephi 2:8). Jacob likewise taught, "ye are free to act for yourselves - to choose the way of eternal death or the way of eternal life. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God... and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved. Wherefore may God raise you from death by the power of the resurrection and also from everlasting death by the power of the atonement, that ye may be received into the eternal kingdom of God, that ye may praise him through grace divine (2 Nephi 10:23-25).

Moroni, the last Book of Mormon prophet, after speaking of the requirements of baptism gave instructions to the church to watch over new converts nourishing them "by the good word of God, to keep them in the right way, to keep them continually watchful unto prayer, relying alone upon the merits of Christ, who was the author and the finisher of their faith" (Moroni 6:4). Moroni's closing remarks exhort all men to "come unto Christ and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness... and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and... then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God through the shedding of the blood of Christ..." (Moroni 10:32-33).

These passages make it clear that works are necessary on our part but our works in no way save us. Works are a sign of our faith for "faith without works is dead" (Jam. 2:26). Without the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ all men would be lost despite their good works (Eph. 2:8-10; Heb. 9:22) but without good works God will not justify any man (Rom. 2:13; 2 Cor. 5:10; 1 Jn. 1:7; Alma 41:13-15).

Steven E. Robinson has explained:

Our best efforts to live the laws of God are required, but not because they earn the promised rewards -- our efforts are infinitely disproportionate to the actual costs. Rather, our best efforts are a token of our good faith and of our acceptance of the offered covenant. Thus we participate in our own salvation... but we can never earn it ourselves or bring it to pass on our own merits, no matter how well we may think we are doing (Are Mormons Christian, pp. 105-106).

When the scriptural steps by which grace becomes operative are understood, we find that: 1) God's grace and love towards all men (John 3:16) were manifest in Christ's atoning sacrifice (Titus 2:11; 1 Jn. 4:9-10) and 2) when we keep God's commandments, we abide in that love (John 15:10; 1 Jn. 4:7; 5:3); 3) we are born of God (1 Jn. 5:4, 18); and 4) sanctified by the Spirit (2 Thes. 2:13) and 5) receive eternal life through Jesus Christ (1 Jn. 5:11). Though we are indeed saved by the grace of God and Christ, we will also appear before the judgment seat to "receive a reward according to our works" (Matt. 16:27; Rom. 14:10-12; 1 Cor. 3:8; 2 Cor. 5:10; Rev. 20:12-13).

Anti-Mormon literature often claims that members of our Church believe in salvation by works, but this is not accurate. LDS beliefs are in accord with the teachings of both Paul and James. We believe in salvation by grace through faith (Rom. 5:2; Eph. 2:8) but we also believe that faith without works is dead (Jam. 2:17). To understand LDS teachings in this area one must first understand the meaning and significance of faith in Mormon theology.

Mormons firmly believe that the first principle of the gospel is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; faith that he is our Savior and Redeemer and that he died for us. Our fourth Article of Faith begins, "We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second Repentance...,” etc. Thus, we believe that faith in Christ is the first step in the conversion process (see Alma 32). Without it, no salvation would be possible.

We also believe as taught by James that our faith, if it is sincere, will be accompanied by works (Jam. 2:17, 24, 26). It is significant that not one scripture tells us that men are saved through faith alone but many scriptures tie faith and works inseparably together as will be shown shortly. Our third Article of Faith states, "We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.” Those laws and ordinances include faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism by water and the Spirit, and lastly enduring to the end of our lives in obedience to the commandments. The Savior taught these basic principles of the gospel during his ministry (Matt. 4:17; 10:22; 19:17; 27:19-20; John 3:5, 17-18; see also page XX of this text) and converts to the Church of Christ were likewise taught these principles by the apostles (Acts 2:36-38; 10:35-36, 43, 47-48; 19:2-6). These same principles along with a belief in the resurrection and the judgment were considered by Paul to be the milk of the gospel (Heb. 5:12-14; 6:1-2; see also 1 Cor. 3:2; 1 Pet. 2:2; D&C 19:22; 50:40). Unfortunately, some Christians have never been weaned away from gospel milk but are still arguing about and striving to understand these basic teachings. The meat of the gospel, according to Paul, "belongeth to them that are of full age, even to those who by reason of use have their sense exercised to discern both good and evil" (Heb. 5:4). Paul is saying that the mature Christian lives as dictated by the Spirit of the Holy Ghost, making the right choices and producing good works. As Elder Glenn Pace has pointed out, “...we will not be saved by works if those works are not born of a disposition to do good, as opposed to an obligation to do good.” He goes on to explain that this process "comes about through grace and by the Spirit of God, although it does not come about until we have truly repented and proven ourselves worthy" (Spiritual Plateaus, p. 63). A mature Christian is converted to the truth and is obedient to the gospel because he has undergone a spiritual transformation referred to in scripture as being "born again" (John 3:3-7, 1 Jn. 2:29; 3:9; Mosiah 27:24-26; LDS Topical Guide, p. 306).

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have accepted the gospel of Jesus Christ and have thus accepted him as Savior by taking his name upon them in baptism (Mosiah 5:7-15). Because Latter-day Saints have also accepted the gospel basics which include true faith (belief followed by works), the covenant of baptism which includes obedience to the commandments (Mosiah 5:5, 8, 15) and understand the principle of enduring to the end (1 Nephi 22:31; 2 Nephi 31:16, 19-21), it only remains for them to learn how to endure in righteousness and live by the Spirit. We believe that, as Paul taught, the emphasis after conversion should shift from milk (faith, repentance, etc.) to the meat (enduring in righteousness and living by the Spirit).

Emphasis on works is not unique to the LDS Church. It is also found in every major book of the New Testament. Consider the following scriptures: Matthew 5:19; 7:21-23; 16:27; 25:46; Mark 7:6-8; Luke 11:28; 13:3, 27; 14:12-14; John 5:29; Acts 2:37-38; 3:19; 10:35; 19:4; Romans 2:5-8, 10, 13; 14:12, 17-18; 1 Corinthians 3:8, 14; 6:9; 10:10-12; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Galatians 6:4, 7-9; Ephesians 6:8; Philippians 2:12; Colossians 1:10; 3:24-25; 1 Thessalonians 4:1-3; 2 Thessalonians 2:12; 1 Timothy 1:19; 6:18-19; 2 Timothy 2:20-21; 3:17; Titus 1:16; 2:14; Hebrews 4:11; 5:9; 6:4-6; 10:24, 26; 12:15; James 2:24; 1 Peter 1:17; 2 Peter 2:20-21; 3:17; 1 John 1:6-9; 2:3-4; 3:10; 2 John 9; 3 John 11; Jude 15; Revelation 2:23, 26; 14:12-13; 20:12-13; 22:14-15. If good works spontaneously springs from faith, why would every New Testament writer feel it necessary to exhort us to keep God's commandments?

We also find the first fathers emphasizing obedience. According to Clement, Barnabas taught, “...the Son of God is in the Judean country, promising eternal life to all who will hear him, provided they will do certain things conformant to the will of Him who sent him, namely God the Father" (Clementine Recognitions, I, 1-5 in Patrol., Graec I, 1207-9 as quoted in Hugh Nibley, The World and the Prophets, p. 32).

Although Mormons do not rely on good works for salvation, those outside our Church who believe we do often quote Ephesians 2:8-9 ("by grace are ye saved... not of works"). Those who do so, rarely quote the next verse which reads: "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” The context thus makes it clear that good works are expected of those who are "born again" through grace. Thus, the gift of salvation, referred to as eternal life, is promised to those who are spiritually transformed and is bestowed by the Lord at the end of life's journey following the resurrection and judgment (see 2 Nephi 31:19-20 and previous page).

Some have also raised the question of "dead works" citing Romans 4:4-5 and Isaiah 64:6 to show that, unless we are saved, our righteousness is worthless. As has already been shown (page XX), salvation is not instantly realized by confessing that Jesus is our Lord and Savior but will be achieved by living in faith to the end of our mortal existence. The phrase "dead works" used by Paul in his epistle to the Hebrews referred not to righteous actions but unrighteous behavior which was to be repented of and abandoned completely. The New International Version makes this clear by translating the last portion of Hebrews 6:1 as, "not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death" or in other words, sinful works of the flesh (see also Hebrews 9:14).

As was mentioned in an earlier response (page XX), Paul's emphasis on grace and not on works was partially a reaction to the Jewish belief that Mosaic "deeds of the law" would justify them. To understand Romans 4:4-5, we must first read the end of Romans 3 where Paul is teaching justification "by faith without the deeds of the law" of Moses (Rom. 3:28). The deed he is specifically addressing is circumcision (verse 30). Thus, circumcision, though a righteous deed of the law, is of no value to the Jew unless he has faith in Christ. Paul goes on to cite Abraham as an example of a man who though uncircumcised (Rom. 4:12), was made "heir of the world" (exalted) "through the righteousness of faith" (Rom 4:13). Thus, true faith will produce righteousness and good works.

Isaiah 64:6 which speaks of our righteousness as "filthy rags" can also be translated as "soiled garments.” An allusion to soiled garments is more in keeping with the rest of the scriptures (see Isa. 1:6-19) and fits perfectly with Alma's declaration that "there can no man be saved except his garments are washed white... through the blood of [Christ]" (Alma 5:21; see also Rev. 7:14; Alma 13:11; 3 Nephi 27:19; Ether 13:10). Therefore, our works like unclean garments are of no value without Christ's atonement which cleanses them. Unlike dirty rags, soiled garments are valuable when cleaned and are therefore worth keeping. Good works likewise are of value when coupled with faith.
Our works are also of value in that they are a token of our obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ (Luke 11:28; 2 Thes. 1:8; 1 Pet. 4:17; D&C 138:4). When we obey God's commandments we also demonstrate our love for him (John 14:15, 21; 1 Jn. 2:5; 5:3) and may thereby be born again (1 Jn. 2:29) unto eternal life (John 3:3; 3 Jn. 21). Our works are a product of faith and the regenerating influence of the Holy Ghost (Rev. 14:12-13). They in no way earn any blessings from God, but, true conversion will produce righteous works. Therefore, without Christ's atonement no man can receive salvation and any good works produced without faith in him are of no saving value.
In the Book of Mormon, King Benjamin's discourse to his people illustrates the futility of trying to earn salvation. He declared:

...if you should render all the thanks and praise which your whole soul has power to possess, to that God who has created you, and has kept and preserved you, and has caused that ye should rejoice, and has granted that ye should live in peace one with another --
I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another -- I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.
And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments; and he has promised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his commandments he doth bless you and prosper you.
And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.
And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast? (Mosiah 2:20-24)

In summary, the accusation that Mormons believe in salvation by works is a misrepresentation of LDS doctrine. The teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ and the Book of Mormon affirm that Christ's sacrifice and God's grace are both essential to our salvation. Our works are important in the sense that they are a token of both faith and obedience (Heb. 5:9; Jam. 2:26) but without Christ's atoning sacrifice no man may be saved (1 Nephi 10:6; 2 Nephi 2:5-7; Jacob 7:12; Mosiah 3:17; 16:10-13; Alma 21:9; 22:14; 41:3-4). On the other hand, those who rely solely on the grace but lack the good works which accompany true faith, may fulfill Christ's prophecy in Matthew 7:21-23. Even though they may claim faith and miracles in Christ's name, to them he will say, "depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” If these are rejected, surely those who only profess Christ's name while failing to obey his gospel will be rejected as well at the day of judgment.

Michael Hickenbotham
FairMormon Volunteer

"I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose" (Gal. 2.21).

Do Mormons think they are saved by trying to keep the law or believe they can lose salvation by not keeping the law? It seems to me a Mormon believes, depending on his level of keeping the law, he will earn himself a different standing among the kingdoms and if he is really bad at keeping the law could find himself in Hell But I thought salvation is not by works lest anyone should boast? Please enlighten me or correct me if you don't agree with what I said.

A problem with fundamentalist Protestant proof-texting is that the one doing that sort of thing does not contextualize the proof-text. What exactly is the "law" the Apostle Paul is rejecting in Galatians? The Mosaic ceremonial law requiring a mutilated penis as proof of one being right with God? Or that circumcision alone get one right with God? Or was it also the huge number of tiny little rules that Jewish hypocrites had burdened the Jews with, and from which Jesus was insisting that he would liberate those so afflicted by taking the burden from the faithful by his merciful forgiveness of sin?
This particular questioner assumes, following Luther that one is somehow justified the moment one confesses Jesus "by faith alone," and hence without having to change a single thing in their behavior. He may consider sanctification optional, and certainly he is not himself a Saint. And he make the mistake of not seeing that one can fall from grace by turning away from God by flagrantly not manifesting deeds of righteousness.
The answer to his questions can be found in both the New Testament and the Book of Mormon. His problem is that he has not taken our sacred texts seriously and hence follows some crude and intentional misunderstanding of what is found in the scriptures and hence what Latter-day Saints believe. He should begin by taking seriously what is still taught plainly and forcefully in "The General Epistle of James." In its second chapter we read the following:
"So faith by itself, if it has not works, is dead."
"But some one will say, 'You have faith and I have works.' Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me they faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder. Do you want to be shown you foolish fellow, that faith apart form works is barren. Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, 'Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness'; and he was called of God."
"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."
"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead. (I have quoted Revised Standard Version of James 2:17-24, 26).
My experience with this fellow indicates clearly that he is not at all interested in knowing what we believe. Instead, he is hoping to get into a debate in which he thinks he can bash us into adopting his really odd version of conservative Protestantism, which few if any have adopted and which often flies in the face of much even traditional apostate Protestant ideology.
In addition, he seems entirely unaware of our sacred texts. He could easily find the answers to his questions he asks below, if he would actually read the Book of Mormon. He could get a full understanding of how we understand words like "grace," "gifts," "faith," "works," "justification," "sanctification," and so forth, by reading carefully the Book of Mormon. He clearly has not done this. He should, I believe read prayerfully the following from the final message found in the Book of Mormon, then he would see that we do not think that we do not think we can just somehow "earn" our way with God by ourselves:
"And again I would exhort you that ye would come unto Christ, and lay hold upon every good gift, and touch not the evil gift, nor the unclean thing.
And awake, and arise from the dust, O Jerusalem; yea, and put on thy beautiful garments, O daughter of Zion; and strengthen thy stakes and enlarge thy borders forever, that thou mayest no more be confounded, that the covenants of the Eternal Father which he hath made unto thee, O house of Israel, may be fulfilled.
Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.
And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot. (Moroni 10:30-33.)
He can, of course, either ignore or reject what the scriptures actually teach concerning the these matters. Everything I have seen from him seem, unfortunately to indicate that he has no interest whatsoever in the truth about what we believe about divine things.

All I can do is show you how you are misreading James. To be a new creation of God you must believe. You can work all you like, try to keep as many laws as you deem necessary, but at the end of the day if you don't believe you are not saved. This is why we are saved by faith alone. What about works? Works naturally follow. If you say no works are necessary to grow in Christ, I can return with since that is your fruit I know you were never born-again. But if you say you admit your works could be better and you are seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit then even though your works aren't up to snuff, I can consider you a brother in Christ. But since you say the new birth, initial salvation, eternal life also require works to be a new creation and remain so then I know you are not in Christ but you are going to Hell.

Dave Hunt always said it best. That would be a weird kind of salvation if you get saved, lose it, get it back, only to lose it again, on and on. God simply doesn't regenerate your spirit in the first place with that attitude despite all these hoops you are trying to go through as a Mormon. If you say you can lose salvation once saved, I know you are not a Christian, and therefore, going to Hell, because John 10.28 is clear those who are born-again "they shall never perish". Praise the Lord! This is a salvation you don't know because you could still end up going to Hell according to your faith, and at the very least be reduced to some lesser kingdom. That is not very comforting, and it leads to doubt which is what Satan wants. Whereas in Christianity all believers are saints, all believers are a royal priesthood, all believers are pillars on the New City, and all believers have eternal life which can never be lost. Now that is a God you can believe in and be assured by.

I don't believe you believe (I know you don't) in God that does this. Maybe that's why Christians believe God was alone from everlasting and you think you always existed in some pre-existing atheist brew of matter or material you call intelligences. The Bible says Jesus created all things so He is in the Trinity but you say He didn't create all things. The Bible says Jesus is the Alpha & Omega, I AM, but you say He isn't. God says He was alone from everlasting, no gods, nothing (no time, no space) beside Him, but you say there was this other stuff too. God is limited by other stuff? I only see pride in you making this claim you always existed. Mormons will forever reject the God who existed outside of time and space. Question yourself why you can't remember your pre-mortal existence. Is it because you never existed before? Christianity never taught pre-existence. It goes against the Bible. Joseph Smith thought he found a loophole but that loophole was snuffed out the very word of God the 66 books of the Bible for our protection.

You're in a cult that says cows existed in the ancient Americas when they didn't, and the fraudster Joseph Smith said the New Jerusalem would be built in west Missouri within a generation. Never happened. Nor could it happen because the New Jerusalem in Rev. 21 is 1379 x 1379 miles not the approximate dimensions of Missouri of 264 x 264 miles. Agent Smith was confused. He changed free will into some impersonal term called agency. Jesus didn't return 1891. Jesus was not born in Jerusalem but Bethlehem. Joseph Smith didn't know the Bible very well so instead of trying to change the meaning of all Biblical terms, since God does not contradict Himself, realize your cult is wrong and the Church did not go missing for 18 centuries. Pray on this as I pray for you.

I highly encourage you to examine the scores of examples of Joseph Smith's made up prophets in the BofM in which they (which was really Smith) quoted the KJV NT when the authors of those books of the KJV were not even born yet. He also added chapters to the Isaiah scroll even though the scroll is the same today as it was in the Dead Sea Scrolls 100 BC. There are 66 chapters, no more, no less. It's amazing a person doesn't think through this obvious fraud. The BofM is pointing to the one who will come to write the book which is Joseph Smith, but Smith is the one who made the prediction of himself in the BofM. How is that not fraud and goofy? He's not a very good con artist anyway for someone who would have the audacity to attempt to do this because he made so many mistakes. The end result is many go to Hell being lead astray by this cult. Fortunately, there are only about 5 million active Mormons/LDS in the world, if that, including the 150 or so sects and offshoots. They are dwindling thanks to technology: Internet, YouTube, and data mining 110,000 books prior to 1830 with computer algorithms to know statistically significant which books Joseph Smith relied on.

[Faithful]

WHAT IS SALVATION?
One would think that the subject of salvation would be particularly well defined in scripture and thoroughly understood by all Christians. In fact, it is a highly debated topic of which the Bible gives only occasional details and which few Christians really understand. We should also add that virtually no one, LDS or otherwise, claims a complete understanding of the miraculous means by which the atonement was accomplished for all mankind (2 Nephi 9:21). Just as an understanding of the infinite universe exceeds man's grasp, so also Christ's infinite atonement (2 Nephi 9:7) exceeds man's finite comprehension (see James E. Talmage, Jesus the Christ, p. 613). This having been said, let us examine what the scriptures reveal about salvation and the atonement.

The words salvation and saved as they are used in the scriptures may refer to deliverance from:

1. captivity - Ex. 14:13, 30; Jude 5
2. enemies - Num. 10:9; 2 Chron. 20:17; Luke 1:71
3. sin - Ps. 51:1-12; Eph. 2:5
4. physical death - Gen. 47:25; 2 Pet. 2:5
5. spiritual death - Ps. 35:9; John 3:16; 1 Pet. 1:9
6. or even God's wrath - Rom. 5:9

Unfortunately many Christians today have a tendency to interpret scriptural references to salvation as meaning unlimited forgiveness and the assured promise of eternal life in God's kingdom. This assumption has, in turn, led much of Christendom to believe in a simple, one-step path to eternal life. Some of the fallacies of this belief will be examined later in this chapter. We will at this point only define these terms in light of scripture and modern revelation.
Although no actual definition of salvation is contained in the scriptures, we can deduce the following:

1. Salvation is deliverance from sin and death or from other forms of repression (see references cited previously)
2. The gospel is referred to as the power of God unto salvation to those who believe (Rom. 1:16; 10:13-17; 1 Cor. 1:18; D&C 68:4)
3. The source of salvation is God's grace (Eph. 2:5, 8; Titus 2:11; 2 Nephi 10:24; 25:23) or in other words God's mercy and love (Rom. 5:8-9; Titus 3:5; LDS Bible Dict. - grace, p. 697)
4. God's grace and love were manifest in Christ's vicarious sacrifice (John 3:16; 2 Tim. 1:9; 3 Nephi 27:14; Moroni 10:32-33) and is effective solely through that "means" (also referred to as "the way" - John 1:12; 14:6; Acts 4:12; Rom. 5:2, 19-21; 6:23; Heb. 10:10; 2 Nephi 31:20-21; Mosiah 4:7-8; 5:7-8; D&C 18:23; Moses 6:52)
5. Full salvation (i.e. exaltation and eternal life) is contingent upon obedience to the gospel and enduring in personal righteousness
6. Salvation is a free gift from God (Rom. 3:24; 5:15-16, 18; Eph. 3:7; 2 Nephi 2:4; 26:27; D&C 6:13; 14:7; Bruce R. McConkie, The Promised Messiah, pp. 346-347; see also pages XX and following of this text)

Our modern revelation provides additional insight relative to salvation and the atonement. James E. Talmage in Jesus the Christ, chapter 3, page 23, explains:

The effect of the atonement may be conveniently considered as twofold:

1- The universal redemption of the human race from [physical] death invoked by the fall of our first parents; and
2- Salvation, whereby means of relief from the results of individual sin are provided.

The dual meaning of salvation is illustrated by Paul's statement in 1 Timothy 4:10: "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." Christ is the Savior of all men because of his victory over physical death (John 5:28; 1 Cor. 15:21-22), but he saves the believer from individual sin through his atoning sacrifice (Rom. 1:16; Alma 34:15). The believer is thus "specially" saved from both death and the consequences of sin. The twofold purpose of Christ's mission is further attested to through the symbols of the sacrament or Lord's supper. The bread symbolizes the resurrection of the body while the wine symbolizes Christ's blood shed to atone for our sins (see also Moses 1:39). Bruce R. McConkie explained that there are three categories of salvation:

1. Unconditional or general salvation, that comes by grace alone without obedience to gospel law, consists in the mere fact of being resurrected. In this sense salvation is synonymous with immortality... This kind of salvation eventually will come to all mankind [John 5:28-29; 1 Cor. 15:22]... But this is not the salvation of righteousness, the salvation which the saints seek....
2. Conditional or individual salvation, that which comes by grace coupled with gospel obedience consists in receiving an inheritance in the celestial kingdom of God. This kind of salvation follows faith, repentance, baptism, receipt of the Holy Ghost, and continued righteousness to the end of one's mortal probation... Even those in the celestial kingdom, however, who do not go on to exaltation, will have immortality only and not eternal life...
3. Salvation in its true and full meaning is synonymous with exaltation and eternal life and consists in gaining an inheritance in the highest of the three kingdoms within the celestial kingdom. With few exceptions this is the salvation of which the scriptures speak. It is this salvation which the saints seek (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 669-670; see also Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 2, pp. 9-13).

WHAT MUST WE DO TO BE SAVED?
The scriptures indicate that no man will be saved in the kingdom of God (i.e. receive exaltation and eternal life) in unrighteousness (see Gal. 5:16-25; Eph. 5:1-9; 3 Nephi 27:19-20; D&C 59:23). The scriptures also indicate that obedience to the following gospel requirements is necessary:

a. Prayer - Acts 2:21; Rom. 10:13; Mosiah 4:11, 20; Moroni 10:4-5 (Note: Although prayer is not considered one of the first principles and ordinances of the gospel, its importance as stressed in the above scriptures seems to justify its inclusion in this list)
b. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ - John 3:17-18; Acts 16:30-31; Rom. 10:9-10; 2 Tim. 3:15; Mosiah 3:9, 12; 3 Nephi 27:19; D&C 33:12
c. Repentance of all our sins - Mark 1:15; Luke 13:3; Acts 2:38-40; 3:19; 11:18; 2 Cor. 7:10; 2 Nephi 9:23; 3 Nephi 27:19; D&C 18:12
d. Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins - John 3:5; Mark 16:16; Acts 2:37-38; Titus 3:5; 1 Pet. 3:21; 2 Nephi 9:23; 3 Nephi 11:33; D&C 68:9
e. Reception of the Holy Ghost and sanctification by the Spirit - John 3:5; Acts 2:38; 2 Thes 2:13; Mosiah 5:2; 3 Nephi 27:20
f. Enduring to the end through obedience to the gospel - Matt. 10:22; 24:13; Mark 13:13; Rom. 2:6-8; Heb. 5:9; 6:15; Jam. 2:24; Rev. 2:26; 2 Nephi 31:15-16, 20; Mosiah 4:30; 3 Nephi 15:9; 27:6, 16; D&C 18:22; 76:50-53

Note how these requirements tie in with Romans 1:15-18 and the essentials of the gospel. Hearing the gospel (verse 15) is the first step toward salvation, believing (verse 16 - i.e. hope leading to prayer and faith - Rom. 1:17; Alma 32:21-22, 27) is the second step , and obeying the gospel (steps a through f above) could be considered the final life-long step (see Rom. 1:18).

DO LATTER-DAY SAINTS BELIEVE CHRIST'S SACRIFICE WAS ESSENTIAL TO OUR SALVATION?
Although an affirmative answer to this question is obvious to Latter-day Saints, some of the anti-Mormon literature available today tries to convince its readers otherwise. The third Article of Faith of the Church states, "We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel." Bruce R. McConkie taught that, "The very heart and core and center of revealed religion is the atoning sacrifice of Christ. All things rest upon it, all things are operative because of it, and without it there would be nothing. Without it the purpose of creation would be void, they would vanish away, there would be neither immortality nor eternal life... We believe and proclaim that salvation is in Christ, in his gospel, in his atoning sacrifice (2 Nephi 31:21; Mosiah 4:8; Acts 4:12). We are bold to say it comes by the goodness and grace of the Father and the Son..." (Doctrines of the Restoration, pp. 57, 78).
The Book of Mormon teaches the necessity of the atoning sacrifice like no other book of scripture. Consider the following scriptures and the clear and convincing witness that they bear of this eternal truth:

Wherefore, all mankind were in a lost and in a fallen state, and ever would be save they should rely on this Redeemer (1 Nephi 10:6).
Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; for he is full of grace and truth. Behold he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered. Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise. Wherefore, he is the firstfruits unto God, inasmuch as he shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved (2 Nephi 2:6-9).
...there is none other name given under heaven save it be this Jesus Christ, of which I have spoken, whereby man can be saved. For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children and also our brethren, to believe in Christ; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins (2 Nephi 25: 20, 23, 26).
And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save. Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life. And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God... (2 Nephi 31:19-21).
For behold, and also his blood atoneth for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam, who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or who have ignorantly sinned. But wo, wo unto him who knoweth that he rebelleth against God! For salvation cometh to none such except it be through repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ. And moreover, I say unto you, that there shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ... and through the atoning blood of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent. (Mosiah 3:11-12, 17-18).
And they all cried aloud with one voice, saying: O have mercy, and apply the atoning blood of Christ that we may receive forgiveness of our sins, and our hearts may be purified; for we believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who created heaven and earth, and all things; who shall come down among the children of men. I say, that this is the man who receiveth salvation through the atonement which was prepared from the foundation of the world for all mankind... even unto the end of the world. And this is the means whereby salvation cometh. And there is none other salvation save this which hath been spoken of; neither are there any conditions whereby man can be saved except the conditions which I have told you (Mosiah 4:2, 7-8).
... were it not for the atonement, which God himself shall make for the sins and iniquities of his people, that they must unavoidably perish, notwithstanding the law of Moses (Mosiah 13:28).
And now, ought ye not to tremble and repent of your sins, and remember that only in and through Christ ye can be saved? Therefore, if ye teach the law of Moses, also teach that it is a shadow of those things which are to come -- Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord... (Mosiah 16:13-15).
And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else (Alma 11:40).
Now Aaron began to open the scriptures unto them concerning the coming of Christ, and also concerning the resurrection of the dead, and that there could be no redemption for mankind save it were through the death and suffering of Christ, and the atonement of his blood (Alma 21:9).
And since man had fallen he could not merit anything of himself; but the sufferings and death of Christ atone for their sins, through faith and repentance, and so forth; and that he breaketh the bands of death, that the grave shall have no victory, and that the sting of death should be swallowed up in the hopes of glory... (Alma 22:14).
And now, behold, I will testify unto you of myself that that I know that these things are true. Behold, I say unto you, Christ shall come among the children of men, to take upon him the transgressions of his people, and that he shall atone for the Lord God hath spoken it (Alma 34:8).
...nothing can save this people save it be repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall surely come into the world, and shall suffer many things and shall be slain for his people (Helaman 13:6).
And as many as have received me, to them have I given to become the sons of God; and even so will I to as many as shall believe on my name, for behold, by me redemption cometh, and in me is the law of Moses fulfilled (3 Nephi 9:17).
And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil (3 Nephi 27:14).
And because of the redemption of man, which came by Jesus Christ, they are brought back into the presence of the Lord; yea, this is wherein all men are redeemed, because the death of Christ bringeth to pass a redemption from an endless sleep, from which sleep all men shall be awakened by the power of God...being redeemed from the eternal band of death, which death is a temporal death (Mormon 9:13).
Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ... And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot (Moroni 10:32-33).

It is clear that the Book of Mormon teaches the necessity of Christ's atonement to salvation as well as man's obligation to have faith in Christ and obey him. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints witness to the world that Jesus Christ is the Savior and Redeemer of mankind and only those who trust in him shall enter into his kingdom. See also D&C 20:29; 38:4; 76:40-42, 69; 138:2.

IS SALVATION A FREE GIFT TO ALL?
Both the Bible (Rom. 5:14-18; 6:23) and the Book of Mormon teach that salvation is a free gift to all men. Lehi taught, "Wherefore, I know that thou art redeemed, because of the righteousness of thy Redeemer; for thou hast beheld that in the fullness of time he cometh to bring salvation unto men. And thou hast beheld in thy youth his glory; wherefore, thou art blessed even as they unto whom he shall minister in the flesh; for the Spirit is the same, yesterday, today, and forever. And the way is prepared from the fall of man, and salvation is free" (2 Nephi 2:3-4).
Nephi asks, "Hath he commanded any that they should not partake of his salvation? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; but he hath given it free for all men; and he hath commanded his people that they should persuade all man to repentance. Behold, hath the Lord commanded any that they should not partake of his goodness? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; but all men are privileged the one like unto the other, and none are forbidden" (2 Nephi 26:27-28).
Bruce R. McConkie has affirmed:

"Salvation is free." (2 Nephi 2:4) Justification is free. Neither of them can be purchased; neither can be earned; neither comes by the law of Moses, or by good works, or by any power or ability that man has....
When the prophets who were before Christ preached that salvation is free, they were announcing the same doctrine that would thereafter fall from apostolic lips in the pronouncement that we are saved by grace. The questions then are: What salvation is free? What salvation comes by the grace of God? With all the emphasis of the rolling thunders of Sinai, we answer: All salvation is free; all comes by the merits and mercy and grace of the Holy Messiah; there is no salvation of any kind, nature, or degree that is not bound to Christ and his atonement. Specifically, our Lord's atoning sacrifice brings all men forth in the resurrection with immortal bodies, thus freeing them from death, hell, the devil, and endless torment; and our Lord's atoning grace raises those who believe and obey, not only in immortality, but unto eternal life; it raises them to sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in God's everlasting kingdom forever (The Promised Messiah, pp. 346-347).

Perhaps the confusion about this gift would be cleared up by considering a few of the many other scriptural gifts from God including numerous gifts of the Spirit (1 Cor. 12), the gift of the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:38), the gift of grace (Rom. 5:15; Jam. 4:6), the gift of righteousness (Rom. 5:17), the gift of faith (Eph. 2:8; 1 Cor. 12:9), the gift of repentance (Acts 11:18), the gift of prophecy (1 Cor. 13:2), and the gift of wisdom (Jam. 1:5). Each of these gifts is free in the sense that we can not earn them but that does not mean that they may be had without effort. Paul taught that we should "covet [i.e. seek or strive after; see D&C 46:8] earnestly the best gifts" (1 Cor. 12:31) and "desire spiritual gifts" (1 Cor. 14:1, 12). Throughout his epistles Paul affirms that we must strive on our part to be worthy of all gifts and blessings of God (Rom. 2:7, 13; Gal. 6:7-9; Eph. 5:3-10; Phil. 2:12; 1 Tim. 6:18-19; Heb. 6:10-15).
The most important of all gifts of God is the gift of salvation and eternal life (Rom. 6:23). Modern revelation confirms that this gift is the greatest of all gifts (D&C 6:13; 14:7). The mission of Jesus Christ had two main purposes and resulted in two gifts: the resurrection and eternal life. Each, as Brother McConkie has stated, is free but the first is given to all men (1 Cor. 15:22) and the second is given to those who obey the gospel (Heb. 5:9). The first overcomes physical death caused by Adam's transgression (Rom. 5:14-15, 18; Alma 11:40-45), and the second overcomes spiritual death caused by our own sins (Rom. 6:22-23; Rev. 2:11; 20:6, 14-15; Alma 12:16, 32-35). Because we suffer the first by no fault of our own, we are not held responsible; but because we suffer the second as a result of individual sin, we must seek forgiveness through the process of repentance (2 Cor. 7:10). Nothing we have done or can do will earn forgiveness but our refusal to have faith in Christ and to follow him, constitutes a refusal to accept his sacrifice for us (John 8:12, 24; Alma 34:15-16). If we reject him, we reject also his gift to us. In this sense then we consider the gift of salvation in God's kingdom to be conditional upon our obedience to the gospel (see Rom. 2:16; 10:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-2; and questions which follow).
King Benjamin stated it clearly in the Book of Mormon:

I say unto you, if ye have come to a knowledge of the goodness of God, and his matchless power, and his wisdom, and his patience, and his long-suffering towards the children of men; and also, the atonement which has been prepared from the foundation of the world, that thereby salvation might come unto him that should put his trust in the Lord, and should be diligent in keeping his commandments, and continue in the faith even unto the end of his life, I mean the life of the mortal body -- I say, that this is the man who receiveth salvation, through the atonement... (Mosiah 4:6-7).

Elder David B. Haight taught that, "Immortality comes to us all as a free gift by the grace of God alone without works of righteousness. Eternal life, however, is the reward for obedience to the laws and ordinances of His Gospel" (October 1989 Conference Talk, November 1989 Ensign, p. 61). Thus, salvation in its fullest sense is a free gift given not because we earn it by our works, but because true faith is coupled with obedience and good works. Without obedience our faith is dead (Jam. 2:20-21) and without true faith (faith coupled with works) our hope for salvation is dead. See also Teachings, pages 68, 253, and 357.

DO LATTER-DAY SAINTS BELIEVE IN ASSURED SALVATION?
Although a few scriptures in the Bible seem to infer that once one or two steps are taken, salvation will be assured (John 3:36; 6:27, 37-39; 10:28-29; Rom. 8:38-39; 10:9-13; Phil. 1:6; 1 Jn. 5:13); there are a host of other scriptures which list additional required steps for salvation and which make it clear that man may fall from grace (Ezek. 18:24; 1 Cor. 9:27; 10:12; 2 Cor. 6:1; Gal. 5:1-6; 6:9; Phil. 2:12; 1 Tim. 1:18-19; 4:1; 5:12; Heb. 3:12-14; 4:10-11; 6:4-6; 10:26-29, 39; 12:15; 2 Pet. 2:1-2, 20-21; 3:17; 1 Jn. 5:16; 2 Jn. 8-9; Rev. 2:5; 3:5). Modern revelation also confirms the fact that "man may fall from grace and depart from the living God [and that members of] the church [must] take heed and pray always, lest they fall into temptation" (D&C 20:32-33; see also Gal. 5:4; Heb. 3:12; 12:15; and Teachings, pp. 338-339).
Though the scriptures do speak of being sealed up unto salvation (John 6:27; 2 Cor. 1:22; Eph. 1:13; 4:30; Mosiah 5:15; D&C 76:53; 88:3-4; 131:5; 132:19, 49) and making our "calling and election sure" (2 Pet. 1:10) or receiving the "promise" of eternal life (Rom. 4:16; Eph. 1:13; 4:30; 2 Tim. 1:1; Heb. 9:15; 1 Jn. 2:25), this promise is a covenant relationship (a sacred agreement) between man and God (Gal. 3:16-17; Heb. 8:6; 12:24; 13:20; D&C 84:33-44). If we accept Jesus Christ as our savior and obey his gospel to the end of our lives, God promises to give us eternal life (See Mark 10:30; 2 Pet. 1:3-11; Mosiah 18:9, 13; D&C 66:2). When our faith has been sufficiently tried (1 Pet. 1:7-10; Ether 12:6; Abr. 3:25-26), we will receive the promised blessing, in person, from Jesus Christ and God the Father (John 14:16-18, 21, 23; Heb. 9:15; 1 Jn. 2:24-25; D&C 88:3-5) and have our salvation sealed to us by the Holy Spirit of Promise or in other words the Holy Ghost (Eph. 4:30; D&C 76:53; 132:7). Since it is doubtful that many Christians would claim these events have occurred in their lives, it is also doubtful that their salvation is yet assured.
We should also note that even Paul spoke of this promise given to the saints as a "hope of eternal life" (Titus 1:2) and not an assurance of such (Rom. 5:2; 8:24-25; 1 Cor. 15:19; Gal. 5:5; Phil. 1:20; Col. 1:5; 1 Thes. 5:8; Titus 3:7; Heb. 6:11; see also 1 Pet. 1:13; 1 Jn. 2:25). Furthermore, the apostle Peter has made it clear that even those who have "escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, [if] they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them" (2 Pet. 2:20-21). We thus learn that salvation is assured if we endure in righteousness to the end of our lives (Matt. 10:22; 24:13; Mark 13:13; Heb. 6:15); but until then we are only given the promise that we shall obtain if we remain steadfast in our faith (Col. 2:5; Heb. 3:14; 2 Tim. 4:7-8; Mosiah 4:11-12; 5:15).
1 John 5:10-13 is often quoted to show that "[we] may know that [we] have eternal life.” Although there is a sense in which we may have an assurance that we will receive eternal life, this is not assured (i.e. guaranteed) salvation. This was also not the intent of the above scripture. The New International Version (NIV) translates these verses as follows: "Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart... And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son does not have life" (see also 1 Jn. 1:2). The intent here is therefore not to teach assured salvation but to show that we must have faith in Christ. The NIV shortens verse 13 to make it less repetitious, but the King James Version follows the Greek Received Text which reads, "I wrote these things to you, the ones believing in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may believe in the name of the Son of God.” The redundancy indicates a probable error in the original but it also clearly shows that the faith of those John was writing was not sufficiently proven since he wrote these things to them that they, at some future point, might have true faith in the Son of God unto eternal life (see 1 Pet. 1:7-10;1 Jn. 5:1-4). We also, like the early Christian saints, must endure in faith and righteousness to the end. If we fail to do so, our salvation may be lost.
Bruce R. McConkie had this to say about the assurance of salvation:

As members of the Church, if we chart a course leading to eternal life; if we begin the process of spiritual rebirth, and are going in the right direction; if we chart a course of sanctifying our souls, and degree by degree are going in that direction; and if we chart a course of becoming perfect, and, step by step and phase by phase, are perfecting our souls by overcoming the world, then it is absolutely guaranteed -- there is no question whatever about it -- we shall gain eternal life. Even though we have spiritual rebirth ahead of us, perfection ahead of us, the full degree of sanctification ahead of us, if we chart a course and follow it to the best of our ability in this life, then when we go out of this life we'll continue in exactly the same course. We'll no longer be subject to the passions and appetites of the flesh. We will have passed successfully the tests of this mortal probation and in due course we'll get the fullness of our Father's kingdom -- and that means eternal life in his everlasting presence (Doctrines of Salvation, p. 54; see also Jesus Christ and Him Crucified, p. 400).

IS SALVATION INSTANT?
Those who promote the concept of instant salvation often cite the story of the thief on the cross (Luke 23:39-43). What is interesting is that the thief requested only that Jesus remember him when he came to his kingdom, yet those who cite this passage as an example of instant salvation, tell us that we must confess that Jesus is our Lord and Savior (Rom. 10:9-10). While it is true that the thief did display faith and was at this point repentant, we find him expressing more a hope for the resurrection than a true faith in Christ's atoning sacrifice for his own sins.
Some Protestants have tried to infer more from the Lord's reply to the thief than was originally intended. When the Lord said: "Today thou shalt be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43), he was not saying that the thief was instantly saved and would go immediately with Jesus to his Father's kingdom, even though the use of paradise in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 and Revelation 2:7 might seem to support this belief. In reality, this statement could only have meant: Today you will be with me in the paradise of spirits (i.e. that portion of the spirit world reserved for the righteous dead). This can easily be demonstrated by examining the scriptural facts surrounding Christ's activities between his death and his resurrection three days later.
Regarding this period, Peter informs us that Christ after "being put to death in the flesh [was] quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison" (1 Pet. 3:18-19; see also Eph. 4:8-9). Peter then adds: "For for this cause was the gospel preached unto them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit" (1 Pet. 4:6). Christ, therefore, visited the spirit world to set the prisoners free by preaching the gospel as Isaiah had prophesied (Isa. 24:22; 42:5-7; 49:9; 61:1; Luke 4:18) and this was accomplished while Christ's body lay in the tomb awaiting the resurrection. That he definitely did not go to his Father's kingdom is made clear in the Lord's own statement to Mary Magdalene following the resurrection. He said, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father; and to my God and your God" (John 20:17).
The Savior hinted at the divided nature of the spirit world in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31). In this parable he referred to the righteous portion of the spirit world as "Abraham's bosom" (Luke 16:22) and to the unrighteous portion as hell or hades (see LDS Bible Dictionary - Hell). The preaching of the gospel in both portions of the spirit world was inaugurated incident to Christ's visit and is described in greater detail in Joseph F. Smith's vision (D&C 138). See also Ephesians 4:8-9; Alma 40:11-14, 21; Mormon Doctrine, Spirit World, pp. 761-762 and LDS Bible Dictionary - Paradise.
When we understand that paradise was a place of rest for righteous spirits awaiting the resurrection, it becomes clear that the assurance given by Christ to the penitent thief on the cross was not a promise of instant salvation and acceptance into heaven, but rather a promise that he would go that day to the spirit world where he could hear the gospel preached and be given the opportunity to accept or reject Christ's atonement for him. Salvation, in this case, was therefore not immediate but still pending an acceptance of and obedience to the gospel in the spirit world (see James E. Talmage, Jesus the Christ, p. 677).
The Savior, when asked by a lawyer what was required to inherit eternal life (Luke 10:25), responded: "What is written in the law? how readest thou?" The lawyer said unto him, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself.” The Savior's response was, "Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (Luke 10:28). Christ also taught, "blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it" (Luke 11:28).
Another instance often cited as an example of instant salvation is the story of the sinful woman who washed Jesus feet with her tears (Luke 7:37-50). As with the previous example, there is again no verbal confession nor any words spoken by this repentant woman. Jesus is reported to have said: "Thy sins are forgiven.... Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace."(Luke 7:48, 50). It seems clear that, in this case, salvation from past sins was granted by the Lord. Eternal salvation in the kingdom of God could be granted subsequently by the Savior if the repentant woman endured in righteousness to the end of her life (see Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 1:265; Matt. 10:22; 24:13; Mark 13:13; Heb. 6:15; 1 Nephi 13:37; 22:31; 2 Nephi 31:15-16, 20; 33:4; Alma 32:13; 3 Nephi 27:6; D&C 18:22; 53:7; 76:50-53).
Paul is often cited in support of the premise of instant salvation (Rom. 6:23; 10:9-10, 13; Heb. 10:10, 14) but this contradicts Paul's later teachings which emphasize the importance of remaining steadfast in faith and showing forth good works that we "may lay hold on eternal life" (1 Tim. 6:11-12, 18-19; 2 Tim. 4:7-8). Paul himself admitted that he still had imperfections and was striving to improve (Phil. 3:12-14, 2 Cor. 12:5, 9-10) and that if they (Paul and the saints) did not "weary in well doing [they would] in due season... reap" the crown of salvation (Gal. 6:9).
Peter likewise exhorted us to give "all diligence" to "add to [our] faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity..." and if we are diligent to "do these things" we will not fall but "an entrance shall be ministered unto [us] abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" (2 Pet. 1:5-7, 10-11). Thus, Peter is speaking of attaining salvation as a continuing process to which we must give "all diligence.” He similarly speaks of grace not as a one-time gift of God but of our need to "grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" (2 Pet. 3:18). God does not grant the most precious of all gifts when we show the first signs of a broken heart and a contrite spirit, but he does "give to each person according to what he has done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honour and immortality, he will give eternal life" (NIV Rom. 2:6-7).
Salvation is not received solely as a result of a confession of faith, but follows a life of faith accompanied by works (Luke 10:25-28; 11:27-28; Acts 2:47; Rom. 11:26; 13:11; 1 Cor. 3:15; 1 Tim. 6:11-12, 18-19; Titus 1:16; Rev. 2:26; 3:5, 21; 12:10-11; 20:6, 12-15; 21:7; 22:12). Instant salvation is a false teaching conceived by Satan to rob those who accept it of true salvation which is given to those who endure in faith and righteousness. See also Mosiah 2:41; Alma 32:15; Moses 4:1-3; James E. Talmage's Articles of Faith, pages 85 and 87; and A Sure Foundation, pp. 226-228.

DO WORKS PRECEDE SALVATION OR ARE THEY A PRODUCT OF SALVATION?
In an effort to clarify the relationship of faith, works, and salvation, some have tried to address the issue using word formulas. The following formulas have been proposed by Protestants to resolve this question:

Faith + Works (does not equal) Eternal Life

Faith = Eternal Life + Works

The Savior when asked "Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?" responded, "if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.” (Matt. 19:16-17) This certainly seems to indicate that keeping the commandments is a requirement for eternal life. As was addressed earlier, eternal life or salvation in God's kingdom is not a product of a confession of faith only (Rom. 13:10-12). Ultimate salvation is received following a life of obedience and good works (Matt. 19:17). Put in their proper perspective the above formulas should read:

Christ's Atonement + True Faith = Eternal Life
(see John 3:16-21; Eph. 2:8; Alma 11:40)

where:
True Faith = Belief + Obedience + Works
(see Jam. 2:17-26; 1 Jn. 2:3)

As the above illustrates, the atonement of Jesus Christ does become effective in our lives based on our faith but that faith must be genuine. Genuine faith is always accompanied by obedience and good works. If we remain faithful to the end, enduring in righteousness, we will receive eternal life as a gift from God (1 Jn. 5:4). Our righteousness will not earn it, but our best efforts to live Christ-like lives will lead little by little to spiritual rebirth (1 Jn. 3:24; 1 Jn. 5:4), justification (Rom. 2:13; Jam. 2:24), and sanctification (2 Thes. 2:13; 1 Jn. 3:7).
John taught that, "if we walk in the light, as he [God] is in the light... the blood of Jesus Christ... cleanseth us from all sin" (1 Jn. 1:7) and "everyone that doeth righteousness is born of him" (1 Jn. 2:29; 3:24). John also taught that "he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he [God] is righteous" (1 Jn. 3:7). We become righteous not because our works make us so but because God sanctifies us through his Spirit based our faith and efforts to obey him. It is for this reason that the apostles exhorted the saints to remain faithful and show forth righteousness of faith (Rom. 4:13). Faith produces righteousness which is manifest in good works. Our faith with our works justifies us (saves us from sin - Rom. 2:13; 3:2-8; Jam. 2:24) and enables us to please God (Heb. 11:6; 1 Jn. 3:22) and be blessed.
The scriptures bear record that our ultimate reward (exaltation and eternal life) will be rendered according to our works which are the visible token of our faith (Ex. 20:6; Ps. 62:12; Eccl. 12:14; Matt. 16:27; Rom. 2:6-8; 2 Cor. 5:10; Rev. 2:23; 20:12; 22:12; Alma 41:3). It is important to understand that those who believe that Christians will somehow escape the judgment are in error. The scriptures are clear that everyone, whether righteous or wicked, whether alive (quick) or dead will appear before the judgment seat of Christ (Ps. 50:4; Eccl. 3:17; Matt. 16:27; Acts 17:31; Rom. 14:10; 2 Cor. 5:10; Rev. 2:23; 20:13; 22:12; see also Acts 10:42; 2 Tim. 4:1; 1 Pet. 4:5; Moroni 10:34) and all will give an accounting. 1 Peter 4:17-18 states that judgment will begin with the "house of God" (i.e. the church) and as Paul says "if it first begins at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" Those who have produced no fruit and have not obeyed God will be rejected, while those who brought forth fruit by doing the will of God will, through sanctification and rebirth, receive eternal life (Matt. 7:17-23).
If good works came automatically by acceptance of Christ, why did Christ, Paul, and the other apostles exhort us first to good works (Matt. 5:6; 7:21-27; 19:16-17; John 7:17; 8:31-32; Acts 10:35; 1 Tim. 6:18-19; 1 Jn. 1:7; 2:17). Why didn't they just preach faith and confession of Jesus Christ? Yet we read of the necessity of overcoming, enduring, and working out our salvation (Matt. 10:22; 24:13; Mark 13:13; Phil. 2:12; 1 Tim. 4:16; Rev. 2:7, 11; 3:5,12,21). Why the contradiction? Obviously, works are important and must precede salvation. The goal is therefore reached at the end of the road and not at the beginning (see also Acts 2:47; 11:13-14; 15:11; Rom. 5:9-10).

DO LATTER-DAY SAINTS BELIEVE IN AN ETERNAL HELL AS DESCRIBED IN THE BIBLE?
The confusion of many Christians today regarding the real nature of hell is, for the most part, the result of mistranslations of the words sheol, hades, and gehenna. The Hebrew word sheol and the Greek equivalent hades were general terms for the afterlife and not a place of eternal punishment. King James scholars translated sheol half the time as grave and the rest of the time as hell or the pit. The Cambridge Bible Dictionary tells us that the Hebrew sheol corresponds to the Greek hades and "signifies the abode of departed spirits... or the underworld. It has been often held, both in Jewish and Christian churches, that Hades consists of two parts, Paradise (q.v.) and Gehenna (q.v.), one the abode of the blessed and the other of the lost. 'Gehenna' or 'Gehenna of fire', is the Greek equivalent of the 'valley of Hinnom', a deep glen south of Jerusalem, where the idolatrous Jews offered their children to Moloch, 2 Chron. 28:3; 33:6; Jer. 7:31; 19:2-6. It was afterwards used as a place for burning the refuse of the city, 2 Kin. 23:10, and in that way became symbolical of the place of torment, Matt. 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5; Jam. 3:6. All language about hell-fire is probably due to the impression produced on men's minds by the sight of this ceaseless burning." (Cambridge Bible Dictionary, Hell, p. 50: see also Teachings, p. 310; History of the Church, 5:425)
Modern LDS authorities differentiate between the spirit world hell and the "lake of fire" hell (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 349-351). That there is a difference is made clear in Revelation 20:13-14 where death and the spirit world hell are delivered up to be judged. Those from this temporary hell who are condemned are then "cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:14), a place where the devil and his servants reside in eternity (Rev. 20:10). 2 Nephi 9:16 informs us that the torment of this hell is "as" a lake of fire and brimstone and has no end.
Some Christians teach that Matthew 25:46, John 3:36, Revelation 14:10-11, and 20:10-15 prove that hell is a place of everlasting punishment and torment in which all the wicked will suffer throughout eternity. Although Mormons believe in a place of everlasting punishment where some will reign with the devil and his angels in eternity (D&C 76:43-44), they also believe that this place is reserved for exceedingly few "who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him" (D&C 76:43). These are commonly referred to by Latter-day Saints as sons of perdition (Matt. 12:31-32; Heb. 6:4-8; D&C 76:31-39; Mormon Doctrine- Sons of Perdition).
J. N. D. Kelly indicates that Origin was satisfied that hell was not eternal but must one day come to an end. (Early Christian Doctrines, p.473 citing C. Cels. 3, 79; 6, 26; in Ierem. hom. 19, 4)
Scriptures such as Psalms 16:10; 86:13; Job 33:27-30; and Acts 2:31 provide proof that the torment of hades or sheol is not eternal since the prisoners there may be redeemed from this punishment to receive a lesser kingdom of glory (D&C 76:81-89). Brother McConkie summarizes the LDS view of hell: "Thus, for those who are heirs of some salvation, which includes all but the sons of perdition (D&C 76:44), hell has an end, but for those who have wholly given themselves over to satanic purposes there is no redemption from the consuming fires and torment of conscience. They go on forever in the hell that is prepared for them" (Mormon Doctrine - Hell, p. 351; see the remainder of this article for further information; see also Answers to Gospel Questions, 2:208-210).

As to the Book of Mormon, let me answer the following questions you asked or inferred:

WHY DOES THE BOOK OF MORMON BORROW EXTENSIVELY FROM THE BIBLE AND WHY ARE SO MANY QUOTES FROM ISAIAH IDENTICAL TO THE KING JAMES VERSION?
Some Christians today question the need for so many similar verses in both the Book of Mormon and the Bible. They often assert that many Book of Mormon verses were copied from the King James Bible making it a fraud. While this might appear to be true to the casual Book of Mormon reader, a closer look at these duplicate texts actually provides us an additional witness of the Book of Mormon's authenticity.
The 21 chapters of Isaiah which are quoted (Chapters 2-14, 29, and 48-54) either partially or completely, represent about one-third of the book of Isaiah, but less than two and one-half percent of the total Book of Mormon. We also find that more than half of all verses quoted from Isaiah (234 of 433) differ from the King James version available to Joseph Smith (see Book of Mormon note to 2 Nephi 12:2). The Book of Mormon apparently follows the King James (Masoretic) text when it conveys the original meaning. We often find differences in Book of Mormon Isaiah texts where modern texts disagree (see also Vestal and Wallace, Firm Foundation of Mormonism, pp. 70-72). One verse (2 Nephi 12:16), is not only different but adds a completely new phrase: "And upon all the ships of the sea.” This non-King James addition agrees with the Greek (Septuagint) version of the Bible, which had not been translated into English in Joseph Smith's day (Gilbert Scharff, The Truth About the God Makers, p. 172; see also Hunter & Ferguson, Ancient America and the Book of Mormon, pp. 100-102; Hugh Nibley, Since Cumorah, pp. 129-143). It is also significant that the chapters of Isaiah actually quoted in the Book of Mormon (chapters 2-14 and 48-54) are those which modern scholars widely agree correspond closely to the original Isaiah collection and therefore would have been the most likely to have existed in Lehi's day (Ibid., pp. 142-143). Could Joseph Smith have known this? If Joseph or anyone else actually tried to plagiarize the Book of Mormon, critics have failed to show the source of the remaining 93% (when all similar texts are removed). A 100% non-biblical book of scripture wouldn't have been much more difficult to produce.
It is also interesting to note that one Bible scholar has found that the four gospels attest to the fact that Jesus Christ and the apostles consistently quoted scripture. He calculated that over "ten percent of the daily conversation of Jesus consisted of Old Testament words quoted literally" and nearly 50% of the Lord's words as quoted by John were quotations from the Old Testament (Jay P. Green Sr., The Interlinear Bible, Hebrew-Greek-English, p. 975).
When we consider the fact that Isaiah is the most quoted of all prophets, being more frequently quoted by Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John (in his Revelation) than any other Old Testament prophet, it should not surprise us that both the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants also quote Isaiah more than any other prophet (LDS Bible Dictionary, p. 707). The Lord told the Nephites that "great are the words of Isaiah,” and the prophet Nephi confessed, "my soul delighteth in his words... for he verily saw my Redeemer, even as I have seen him" (2 Nephi 11:2).
It is clear that the writings of Isaiah held special significance for Jesus Christ and Nephi (see 2 Nephi 11:8, 25:5; 3 Nephi 20:11, 23:1-3). Isaiah's prophecies might also have been quoted frequently because they were largely concerned with latter-day events. Isaiah wrote about the restoration of the gospel through Joseph Smith (see Isa. 49), the gathering of Israel in the last days (Isa. 18), the coming forth of the Book of Mormon (Isa. 29), wickedness in the last days (Isa. 33), and the Savior's second coming, and the millennium (Isa. 13, 26, 27). While he also wrote about the Savior's first coming (Isa. 32:1-4) and events in his own time (Isa. 20, 23), most of what he wrote about is yet to be fulfilled (Bruce R. McConkie, Ten Keys to Understanding Isaiah, Ensign, Oct. 1973, pp. 78-83, see also Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, 3, p. 26).
When one considers that New Testament writers literally quoted hundreds of Old Testament scriptures including 76 verses from Isaiah (LDS Bible Dictionary, pp. 756-759) it should not surprise us that Book of Mormon writers did likewise. After all, these writings were part of the old world scriptures brought with them to the new world (1 Nephi 19:22-23). If the prophets of the Book of Mormon had not quoted Isaiah we might have questioned the authenticity of their words. That they did quote him extensively shows that they understood his writings as did Jesus and other apostles and prophets.
If critics are making an accusation of plagiarism then they are by the same logic indicting their own Bible. Close examination of the Old Testament reveals many passages which are copied nearly word for word including grammatical errors. Micah, who lived hundreds of years after Isaiah, prophesied word for word in Micah 4:1-3 what Isaiah prophesied in Isaiah 2:2-4 without once giving him credit (see A. Melvin McDonald, Day of Defense, p. 49). We also find the genealogy from Genesis 5:10-11, 36 repeated in 1 Chronicles, much of the history in Samuel and Kings is repeated in Chronicles, and that Isaiah 36:2 through 38:5 is the same as 2 Kings 18:17 through 20:6. Although Old Testament scripture was often quoted by Old and New Testament writers without giving credit, the Book of Mormon most often makes it clear from whom passages were quoted. There was obviously no intent to plagiarize in either case but to find fault with the Book of Mormon you must equally fault the Bible, otherwise you are using a dual standard to judge.
Paul has been cited as the most original of all New Testament writers but investigations of his epistles show that Paul often quoted from classical writers, orators, dramas, law courts, sports commentaries, and ancient religious rites. Even the well-known Pauline formula of "faith, hope, and charity,” which appears also in the Book of Mormon, has been traced to Babylonian writings (Hugh Nibley, Since Cumorah, p. 128).
Some have also questioned the use of the name JEHOVAH in 2 Nephi 22:2 and the use of some italicized King James Version words in the Book of Mormon. It seems clear that Joseph Smith was led to translate many passages as they appear in the King James Bible and made changes specifically by exception. Use of the proper name Jehovah which is an anglicized form of the Hebrew Yahweh, was common in the Bible (Ex. 6:3; Ps. 83:18; Isa. 12:2; 26:4) and was also in common use in Joseph Smith's day (D&C 109:34, 42, 56, 68; 110:1-3; 128:9; Teachings, pp. 220, 221, 250-251). Although the name Jehovah is of more recent origin than the original Book of Mormon plates, it does not mean this name could not properly be used in translating a more ancient Hebrew title denoting the eternal I AM. Why should Joseph Smith be criticized for using the same name that King James scholars used?
When considering the italicized King James words found in Isaiah passages and at times also in the Book of Mormon (though in normal print), we should first understand their significance. These words were inserted by scholars for clarification of the meaning in the English translation but were not in the original Hebrew text. As was stated earlier, Joseph Smith apparently made changes to Isaiah and other passages with biblical parallels only by exception (i.e. where clarification was needed) though witnesses and internal evidence indicate that Joseph Smith did not have a Bible available to him (Review of Books on the Book of Mormon, vol. 5, p. 51; vol. 6, pp. 100-101, 127-130). It only stands to reason that Joseph Smith would not remove or change King James words which clarify the meaning unless they were misleading or in error. Examples of this are found in 2 Nephi 12:2 (compare Isa. 2:2); 2 Nephi 12:6 (Isa. 12:6); 2 Nephi 12:12-14 (Isa. 2:12-14); and 2 Nephi 12:20 (Isa. 2:20). We should note that in the first chapter where Book of Mormon passages parallel Isaiah's record (Isa. 2), 8 verses contained italicized words and Joseph modified 6 of them. The two verses left unchanged would have been confusing without the italicized words they included. Although these passages may not be representative of all Isaiah passages, the types of changes cited above are. Indeed, Book of Mormon chapter summaries encourage the reader to compare the related Isaiah passages. When this is done without bias, the changes found in the Nephite record testify to the authenticity of this work and the inspiration involved in its production. The reader is encouraged to make this comparison noting especially the italicized words and then challenge critics to do likewise. See also http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/10/13/kjv-italics/

ARE THERE ANY SCIENTIFIC OR HISTORIC PROOFS OF THE AUTHENTICITY OF THE BOOK OF MORMON?
Many critics of the Church claim that the Book of Mormon fails many scientific and historic tests which should validate its trustworthiness. A number of anachronisms in the Book of Mormon are often cited in support of the assertion that the book is a fraud. We can not ignore the fact that just as Christianity in general, stands or falls on the reality of the resurrection, Mormonism stands or falls on the authenticity of the Book of Mormon (Nov 1986 Ensign, p. 6). Either Joseph Smith has perpetrated the greatest religious hoax in history or he was a prophet of God and the Book of Mormon is truly the word of God. There are no other alternatives. If it is a hoax it should be easy to tell and if it is "of God" that should be verifiable also (see Orson Pratt, The Restoration of All Things, p. 86). What our Christian friends fail to realize is that scientific and historic scholarship can never provide definitive answers about the "things of God.” As the scriptures tell us, "the things of God knoweth no man, but [by] the Spirit of God" (1 Cor. 2:11). Intellectual proofs may reassure us but it is the Spirit of the Holy Ghost which convinces us beyond any doubt. Just to set the record straight let's consider some of the scientific and historic tests which are cited or patently ignored by our critics.
The Book of Mormon was often ridiculed in Joseph Smith's day by scientists and scholars for what many considered to be obvious blunders. The mention of white skinned races, horses, wheels, steel, glass, cement, silk, barley, and metal plates in pre-Columbian America was identified as the product of an unschooled farm boy's imagination. At that time the existence of these items among the early inhabitants of the Americas was widely held to be scientifically unsupportable. Since that day some of these criticisms have been quieted but many still persist if only among the uninformed. Although archaeology is verifying the early existence of most of the above mentioned anachronisms, further research is still needed. Archaeologists have excavated less than 1% of all known ancient sites of the Book of Mormon period (Vestal and Wallace, The Firm Foundation of Mormonism, p. 103) so there is much yet to be learned by scientific means in this area.
As a detailed discussion of all pertinent scientific and historic discoveries is not possible in this text, only a summary of references and findings will be given in this response. Those who require more information are encouraged to read the references which follow.

ANACHRONISMS

1. Iron and Steel (2 Nephi 5:15, 1 Nephi 4:9) - The working of metals such as iron and steel is often touted as a mistake but recent discoveries indicate that such metals were indeed in use in Book of Mormon times in both the new and old world. Although the "steel" in use in that day may not have been forged in the same manner as today's steel, early historians nonetheless reported the use of a type of "steel" in antiquity in both the new and old world. - See John L. Sorenson, An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon, pp. 278-287; see also Nibley, Since Cumorah, p. 254; Lehi in the Desert and the World of the Jaredites, pp. 210-213; Diane E. Wirth, A Challenge to the Critics, p. 28; John L. Sorenson, FARMS Reprint, An Evaluation of the Smithsonian Institute's statement regarding the Book of Mormon; Hunter and Ferguson, Ancient America and the Book of Mormon, pp. 263-4, 276-277; Michael T. Griffith, Refuting the Critics, p. 45.
2. Silk (Alma 1:29, Ether 9:17) - Although Chinese silk was probably not used in ancient America other silky fabrics made with western materials were woven in the new world - Diane E. Wirth, A Challenge to the Critics, p. 28; see also Nibley, Lehi in the Desert and the World of the Jaredites, p. 216; John W. Welch, Reexploring the Book of Mormon, pp. 162-164.
3. Glass (Ether 3:1) - Glass was known in the ancient world prior to 3000 B.C. (Note that the Book of Mormon mentions glass in about 2200 B.C. but only in the old world) - Nibley, Lehi in the Desert and the World of the Jaredites, pp. 213-216; See also Diane Wirth, A Challenge to the Critics, p. 28.
4. Horses (1 Nephi 18:25, etc.) and Elephants (Ether 9:19) - The existence of pre-Columbian animals such as the horse and elephant, while still being debated by experts, seems more and more probable. The remains of horses and mammoths dating from Book of Mormon times have been found in Florida, Mexico, and the Yucatan Peninsula. - John L. Sorenson, An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon, pp. 288-299; See also Nibley, Since Cumorah, pp. 256-7; Lehi in the Desert and the World of the Jaredites, pp. 216-221; Jack West, Trial of the Stick of Joseph, pp. 94-95; Wirth, A Challenge to the Critics, pp. 50-56; Daniel H. Ludlow, A Companion to Your Study of the Book of Mormon, p. 117 as quoted in Book of Mormon Student Manual, p. 46; Hunter and Ferguson, Ancient America and the Book of Mormon, pp. 312-314; Welch, Reexploring the Book of Mormon, pp. 98-100.
5. Bees (Ether 2:3) - Some critics assert that the Book of Mormon places bees in America at about 2000 B.C. but all references to bees or honey in the Book of Mormon belong to the old world. The Jaredites carried hives of bees from Babel into the wilderness but they were apparently not taken on their ships (Ether 6:4). The existence of the honey bee at this early period in the old world is attested to by the Bible (Ex. 3:8; Deut. 1:44; Jud. 14:8). Since there is no mention in the Book of Mormon of bees in the New World this is really a non-issue, but findings do indicate that bees were in America at a very early date. - Nibley, Lehi in the Desert and the World of the Jaredites, pp. 184-189; See also Gilbert W. Scharffs, The Truth about the God Makers, p. 174; Diane E. Wirth, A Challenge to the Critics, pp. 56-57.
6. Cement (Helaman 3:7-11) - The mention of the use of cement in the Book of Mormon was initially thought to be a gross error on Joseph Smith's part but more recent findings reveal that ancient Americans did use cement, concrete, and gypsum in their roads and buildings. - Nibley, Since Cumorah, p. 254; West, The Trial of the Stick of Joseph, pp. 86-88; Book of Mormon Student Manual, pp. 354-355; Welch, Reexploring the Book of Mormon, pp. 212-214; Hunter and Ferguson, Ancient America and the Book of Mormon, pp. 261-263, 269.
7. Wheels (Jarom 8; 3 Nephi 3:22) - It is clear that the ancient Americans knew the wheel. Sixty examples of wheeled objects have been found. One of these, a child's toy with four little stone wheels was unearthed in a Mexico City excavation and large nine-foot diameter stone wheels have been found in Bolivia - West, The Trial of the Stick of Joseph, pp. 92-94; Small and large stone wheels are pictured in the Book of Mormon Student Manual, p. 56, 187; Wirth, A Challenge to the Critics, pp. 58-64; Hunter and Ferguson, Ancient America and the Book of Mormon, pp. 259-261; Michael T. Griffith, Refuting the Critics, pp. 56-57.
8. Money (Alma 11:1-20) - Some have mistakenly assumed that Alma 11 describes a coinage system when in fact the word coin does not appear in the Book of Mormon text (The word "coinage" in the chapter heading was added by a l9th century editor). The system described is based on fractional measurements of grain (Alma 11:7) and proportionate weights of metal. Both the grain standard and the exact proportions cited in the Book of Mormon (1, 2, 4, 7) correspond very closely with an ancient but extremely practical Egyptian monetary system - Vestal and Wallace, The Firm Foundation of Mormonism, pp. 93-98; Nibley, Since Cumorah, pp. 255-256; Sorenson, An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon, pp. 232-233; Diane E. Wirth, A Challenge to the Critics, pp. 46-48; Michael T. Griffith, Refuting the Critics, p. 60.
9. Barley (Alma 11:7, 15) - Many experts have claimed that barley did not exist in ancient America, however, barley has been found at a Phoenix, Arizona Hohokam site dating from 300 B.C.. Barley was found in abundance at that site and was found to have been grown domestically - Wirth, A Challenge to the Critics, p. 27; December 1984 FARMS Update - Barley in Ancient America; Welch, Reexploring the Book of Mormon, pp. 130-132; Hunter and Ferguson, Ancient America and the Book of Mormon, pp. 303-308; Sorenson, Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon, p. 184.
10. Israelites inhabited pre-Columbian America (1 Nephi 5:14; 6:2) - Though anthropologists are still arguing the presence of Israelites in ancient America, there is abundant proof of the existence of white skinned races among the ancestors of Indian tribes of Central and South America. To this day many paintings in the temples at Bonampak and Chichen Itza, terracotta pottery and sculptures depict white skinned, bearded Caucasian and Semitic-appearing people. Bearded figures were depicted frequently in bas reliefs, sculptures, and terra cotta portraits until 385 A.D. even though Indians today do not grow beards. The sudden disappearance of this characteristic matches exactly the Book of Mormon history's dating of the Nephite decline. Could this be coincidence? - Diane E. Wirth, A Challenge to the Critics, pp. 24-36, 115-132; see also Hugh Nibley, Since Cumorah, p. 246; Jack West, The Trial of the Stick of Joseph, p. 108; John Sorenson, An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon, pp. 81-91; Hunter, Archaeology and the Book of Mormon, pp. 25-33, 46-57, 182-282; Hunter and Ferguson, Ancient America and the Book of Mormon, p. 240-256; Michael T. Griffith, Refuting the Critics, pp. 50-51.
11. Metal plates - Joseph Smith was ridiculed by many because he claimed to have translated the Book of Mormon from gold plates. In addition, Book of Mormon prophets described other old world writings on metal plates (1 Nephi 3; 19:1; Mosiah 8:9). Since that day more than 60 plates of gold, silver, brass, and other metals have been found dating to as early as 3000 B.C. and as late as the 8th century A.D. - See Mark E. Peterson, Those Gold Plates!, pp. 4-5, 10-32; Vestal and Wallace, The Firm Foundation of Mormonism, p. 106; Diane E. Wirth, A Challenge to the Critics; pp. 37-45; Michael T. Griffith, Refuting the Critics, p. 46.
12. Stone boxes - Stone boxes like the one which Joseph Smith described (Jos. Smith-Hist. 1:51-52) though virtually unknown in that day, have since been found in both the new and old world. To date, over 50 stone boxes have been found in Mesoamerica. One box found near a temple in Kulkulcan, Mexico had a lid which was very similar to the one described by Joseph Smith (see Jos. Smith-Hist. 1:51) - Diane E. Wirth, A Challenge to the Critics; pp. 43-45; Mark E. Peterson, Those Gold Plates!, pp. 26-27.

OTHER EVIDENCES
1. Tree of Life - The tree of life symbol found in the Book of Mormon (1 Nephi 7, 11; 2 Nephi 2:15; Alma 5:34, 62; etc.) has been depicted in bas reliefs throughout the new world. One of these (Izapa Stella #5) has been found to agree in over one hundred details with Lehi's vision of the tree of life. Surprisingly, many of the hundreds of tree of life symbols combine the form of the cross with the tree - Vestal and Wallace, The Firm Foundation of Mormonism, pp. 120-122; Diane E. Wirth, A Challenge to the Critics, pp. 69-75; Warren and Ferguson, The Messiah in Ancient America, pp. 71-111; Hunter and Ferguson, Ancient America and the Book of Mormon, pp. 213-214.
2. Language - Evidence of both Hebrew and Egyptian cultures is found throughout the Book of Mormon (1 Nephi 1:2; Mosiah 1:4; Mormon 9:34). Hebrews idioms, grammar, and names are found throughout the text but, at the same time, distinctly Egyptian names and cultural traits may also be found there. This Egyptian influence is further substantiated by Mesoamerican pyramids and inscriptions discovered after Joseph Smith's day - Sorenson and Thorn, Rediscovering the Book of Mormon, pp. 77-91; Vestal and Wallace, The Firm Foundation of Mormonism, pp. 173-179, Diane E. Wirth, A Challenge to the Critics, pp. 76-89, Jack West, The Trial of the Stick of Joseph, pp. 83-86; Hugh Nibley, Lehi in the Desert and the World of the Jaredite, pp. 13-17; Book of Mormon Student Manual, p. 42; Welch, Reexploring the Book of Mormon, pp. 183-185; Hunter and Ferguson, Ancient America and the Book of Mormon, pp. 264-268; Michael T. Griffith, Refuting the Critics, pp. 40-42, 73-74.
3. Ancient writing patterns - Several different characteristics of ancient writings have recently been identified for the first time. These include the colophon which was often used in Egyptian compositions and chiasmus which is a distinctly Hebraic literary form. Both are found in the Book of Mormon despite the fact that these characteristics were unknown in Joseph Smith's day.

a. The colophon is essentially a writer's preface which follows a fixed pattern. It most often includes the writer's name, background, qualifications for writing, and a summary of the text. At times, the text is also concluded with a similar pattern. Colophons are found throughout the Book of Mormon - Sorenson and Thorn, Rediscovering the Book of Mormon, pp. 32-37; Hugh Nibley, Lehi in the Desert and the World of the Jaredites, pp. 17-20; Vestal and Wallace, The Firm Foundation of Mormonism, p. 147; Welch, Reexploring the Book of Mormon, pp. 13-16.
b. Chiasmus is an ancient literary form which resembles poetry. Instead of repeating sounds or following a rhyming pattern, chiasmus repeats ideas or words in a systematic pattern which reverses at its center point. Many examples of chiasmus have been identified in the Hebrew Bible but the Book of Mormon contains some of the most complex examples of chiasmus known today. Alma's chiasm in Alma 36 is made up of 17 elements with all but the center element repeated twice - Sorenson and Thorn, Rediscovering the Book of Mormon, pp. 114-131; Vestal and Wallace, The Firm Foundation of Mormonism, pp. 155-170; Book of Mormon Authorship, pp. 33-52; Diane E. Wirth, A Challenge to the Critics, pp. 94-99; Welch, Reexploring the Book of Mormon, pp. 230-235.

4. Writing styles - A number of scientific tests have been devised to examine the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. Two tests which deal with writing styles have produced some exciting yet largely ignored results which our critics cannot explain. A new computer assisted analysis technique referred to as "stylometry" or more commonly "wordprint" analysis was developed to identify an author's writing style much like a fingerprint or voiceprint is used to identify an individual. Although wordprint analyses identifying the usage rate of non-contextual words have produced the best authorship identification, total new word usage rates have also produced significant results and will be addressed.
Non-contextual words used in wordprint analysis are the filler words such as prepositions and conjunctions which are repeated subconsciously as a result of habit patterns developed in our early life. Although the conscious features of a given author's style might be imitated, the subconscious features cannot. Analysis indicates that an author's wordprint style remains consistent despite the passage of time, change of subject matter, or literary form. Most importantly, the value of a wordprint analysis is apparently retained where a literal translation has been made (Welch, Reexploring the Book of Mormon, pp. 221-226). Wordprint studies to determine authorship have included the examination of letters, biblical books, ancient Greek works, and more recently the technique was applied to the Book of Mormon. In a 1979 report, Wayne Larsen and Alvin Rencher showed that the Book of Mormon text contained more than 20 distinct wordprint styles which were internally consistent with the authors identified in the text. Even more surprising to our critics was the fact that none of the Book of Mormon wordprint styles matched Joseph Smith's own style or that of any other suggested nineteenth-century author (See Book of Mormon Authorship, pp. 157-188). Despite the fact that Joseph Smith's own wordprint style is not found in the Book of Mormon, a consistently limited working vocabulary, similar to that of Joseph Smith's, is found throughout the book (See John L. Hilton's F.A.R.M.S. paper entitled Book of Mormon "Wordprint" Measurement using "Wraparound" Block Counting).
The rate at which new words are introduced throughout the Book of Mormon is consistently low while individual wordprint styles vary consistently throughout the book according to the textually identified author. The only reasonably acceptable explanation for these two statistically observable results is that "the Book of Mormon is a continuous literal translation of non-English writings by different original authors, expressed by a literal translator using a restricted English vocabulary" (Ibid.). In addition, the conclusion that Joseph Smith or any contemporary could have authored the Book of Mormon is scientifically indefensible in light of the findings mentioned above. When coupled with the internal writing patterns and Egyptian and Hebrew characteristics mentioned earlier, the only rational conclusion that can be reached is that the Book of Mormon was not the product of any nineteenth-century author's imagination. It can only be what Joseph Smith claimed it to be: a translation of an ancient record written by men familiar with both Hebrew and Egyptian language characteristics. Additional information on wordprints may be found in Robert L. Hamson, The Signature of God; Robert and Rosemary Brown, They Lie in Wait to Deceive, vol. 2, chap. 9; Sunstone Magazine, vol. 6, num. 2, pp. 15-26; and BYU Studies, Spring 1980, p. 225ff.
5. Migration Routes - Some people both in and out of the LDS Church have erroneously assumed that the Book of Mormon is the history of all pre-Columbian civilizations in the western hemisphere. In reality it is a religious account of three groups that came to the Americas prior to 589 B.C.. Undoubtedly there were other groups which came to the new world at other times and by other routes but these are not mentioned in the Book of Mormon narrative. The primary group described in the Book of Mormon is that of Lehi the prophet. Dr. Eugene England has made a detailed comparison of this group's Arabian journey with modern geographical features. His study revealed no contradictions and numerous correspondences. In fact, more than twenty significant geographical details described in the Book of Mormon, but unknown in Joseph Smith's day, serve as evidence that it is indeed an ancient document, written from firsthand information (Noel B. Reynolds, ed., Book of Mormon Authorship, p. 143; see also Scharffs, The Truth about the God Makers, pp. 130-132; Michael T. Griffith, Refuting the Critics, pp. 44-45).
The theory that the American Indian is basically Mongoloid and came to the Americas via the Bearing Strait is widely accepted today. Diane Wirth has observed that "blood types of the American Indians do not correspond to those of East Asian peoples.... In fact, a more plausible theory is that their ancestors came by sea, from non-Mongoloid parts of the old world. Blood types are genetically inherited and passed from father to son, from one generation to the next. Among Asians, blood types A and B are common; among American Indians blood type O predominates. Except for the Eskimos, and some Athapascan groups such as the Apache and the Navajo, blood group B is virtually nonexistent among American Indians throughout North, Middle, and South America. In essence what we have is a chain of interrelated populations which cannot be regarded as typical Mongoloids. Artifacts found in the Bearing Strait suggest the influence of a rather small number of Asians - far below any number that would have been needed to produce the large populace which existed." (Diane E. Wirth, A Challenge to the Critics, p. 25; see also Hugh Nibley, Since Cumorah, p. 246; Michael T. Griffith, Refuting the Critics, pp. 48-49)
Jack West cites several legends recorded by great historians which further substantiate the Book of Mormon account. These legends describe migrations soon after the dispersion of the human family in which several different groups came "through the sea" (Jack H. West, The Trial of the Stick of Joseph, pp. 69-75; see also Vestal and Wallace, The Firm Foundation of Mormonism, pp. 110-115)
6. Indian legends - Indian legends not only affirm the Book of Mormon account of various groups coming to the Americas by ship but they affirm beliefs in many biblical teachings. Legends concerning the creation, the great flood, the closed ark, the high tower, the confusion of languages, as well as beliefs concerning fasting and baptism have been documented by researchers (Milton R. Hunter and Thomas S. Ferguson, Ancient America and the Book of Mormon, pp. 18-35, 89-93, 203, 219. One of the virtually universal beliefs found among Indian tribes of both North and South America concerns a white, bearded God who visited their ancestors. They record that at the end of his visit, he left a promise that he would return one day. These legends are well documented in a book entitled He Walked the Americas by L. Taylor Hansen.
One North American legend describes the childhood of this "white God.” It says, "He told them that he was born across the ocean, in a land where all men were bearded. In this land he was born of a virgin on a night when a bright star came out of the heavens and stood over his city. Here, too, the heavens opened and down came winged beings singing chants of exquisite beauty." (He Walked the Americas, p. 48)
Other legends speak of the priesthood he established with his 12 disciples, the changes he made in their temple worship, the prayers he spoke, the miracles he did, and even the marks in his hands received in the land of his birth when he was nailed to a cross (Ibid., p. 150-153; see also Mark E. Peterson, Those Gold Plates!, pp. 78-88; Warren and Ferguson, The Messiah in Ancient America, pp. 1-28; Wirth, A Challenge to the Critics, pp. 133-147; West, The Trial of the Stick of Joseph, pp. 81-83; and Hunter, Archaeology and the Book of Mormon, pp. 29-33, 39-45, 89-92; Hunter and Ferguson, Ancient America and the Book of Mormon, pp. 195-222).
7. Modern Witnesses - In addition to the ancient historical accounts found among Indian tribes of North and South America, we have testimonies of many modern witnesses of the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. Besides Joseph Smith, there were eleven other men who saw and handled the plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated. Three of these men saw the angel who brought the plates and heard a voice from heaven declaring that the translation had been done by the gift and power of God and was true. Eight of the witnesses viewed the plates and the unusual characters engraven upon them and were allowed to "heft" the plates. All eleven men signed sworn legal affidavits attesting to these events as firsthand witnesses and despite persecution, attempts to discredit their testimonies, and even the excommunication of some, these witnesses never denied their testimonies of these events. Anti-Mormon critics have often attempted to prove otherwise but available records lend no support to these assertions. The dying words of the three witnesses leave no doubt that Joseph Smith's account of the origin of the Book of Mormon was true (Richard Lloyd Anderson, Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses). To these accounts, we could also add the testimonies of friends and relatives who took part in these events (see Ensign article, Feb 89, p. 36 and Jul 92, pp. 53-55).
The Bible affirms that "In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established" (2 Cor. 13:1). No other revelation from God is attested to by so many modern witnesses and has been reaffirmed personally by the Father and Son (D&C 1:29-30; 17:6; Testimony of the Three Witnesses in the Book of Mormon). We should not ignore this veritable "cloud of witnesses" (Heb. 12:1) but should heed the words of the prophets and look unto Christ and his word as contained in the Bible (Heb. 12:2) and the Book of Mormon (2 Nephi 2:28; 25:24-26).
Although the above historical and scientific details may affirm our testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, they cannot by themselves produce a complete testimony. The only way to gain a lasting testimony is through the confirmation of the Spirit. I hope you’ll do that though I suspect you will not.

Our FairMormon web site treats all the accusations you made about the Book of Mormon and many more. To save space I’ll just refer you to some of our web pages:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Anachronisms

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mor...hronisms/Items

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mor...Animals/Cattle

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mor...Deutero-Isaiah

Michael Hickenbotham
FairMormon Volunteer

"Man may fall from grace and depart from the living God [and that members of] the church [must] take heed and pray always, lest they fall into temptation" (D&C 20:32-33; see also Gal. 5:4; Heb. 3:12; 12:15; and Teachings, pp. 338-33

I am not sure what this "Teachings" document is for Mormons, but it at least shows that Mormons are not saved, because it teaches a person can lose salvation once saved.

Let's look at the Biblical verses if they support non-OSAS.

"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace" (Gal. 5.4).

We should not infer from this verse a believer has fallen away all the way since other verses like John 10.28 says a person born-again "they shall never perish". What's happening here is some Christians though saved have forgotten the point that we are not justified by the law. They truly accepted Jesus, but He has no effect on them and so they have fallen. In other words, backsliding.

"Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God" (Heb. 3.12).

Again, this is a matter of backsliding.

"See to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no 'root of bitterness' spring up and cause trouble, and by it the many become defiled" (Heb. 12.15).

Being defiled because of falling back, bitterness and resisting God's grace since this passage is speaking to those who are saved, should not be construed as losing salvation once saved.

[Faithful]

Michael,

You mentioned you believe that Rev. 3.5 suggests salvation by works and a person could lose salvation.

“He that overcometh shall thus be arrayed in white garments; and I will in no wise blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels”—Here it is not a matter of having a name written but a matter of having a name confessed. At the time of resurrection the angels will also be present. And he whom the Lord confesses has part in the kingdom, but he whose name is not recognized by the Lord has no portion in the kingdom. Now this is not a question of eternity, it is a question of reigning with Christ. How pathetic it will be to have one’s name written in the book of life and yet not confessed!

Rev. 2 & 3 are speaking to the 7 church periods about overcoming. Those that overcome reign with Christ during the millennial kingdom. So Michael, you can see how you misinterpret this passage.

You mentioned Rev. 2.5 that a person also can't be assured of salvation: "Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent."

The Lord tells them a way of restoration. (1) “Remember therefore whence thou art fallen”—This means there should be an investigation of the cause. There is a reason for each retrogression. Unless the cause is found, restoration is impossible. According to the Lord’s view, even though the church in Ephesus is outwardly perfect she has already fallen inwardly. Inner fall precedes outer failure. (2) “And repent”—Repentance is not only required of sinners, it is likewise necessary for believers. Whenever there is a falling away, there is the need for repentance. (3) “And do the first works”—Repentance is negative, while “do the first works” is positive.

From this word we may deduce that the church in Ephesus is not doing what she really did before. What were the things that she previously did? We know these could not have been toil, patience, diligence, resisting evil men, and so forth. In spite of the fact that nothing is explicitly mentioned, a careful reading of the letter to the Ephesians will convince us of two things which they had been doing before: (1) they were faithful (1.1), and (2) they let Christ be Lord (3.17). Hence, in this verse the Lord shows the way to restoration on the one hand and discloses His judgment on the other—the way of first love, but then followed by a warning: “Or else I come to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of its place, except thou repent”—Move the candlestick out of its place! Since the word candlestick represents the church, the duty of the church is to shine, that is, to witness.

To be removed from its place is a word that prompts us to ask what is the church’s place. The original place of all these candlesticks is before the Lord (1.12,13; 2.1). And hence, to be removed from its place will mean that a given church will lose its original place before the Lord and thus be rejected by Him. Having lost its place, the candlestick is no longer supplied with oil (that is to say, the church can no longer be filled with the Holy Spirit), and consequently it is unable to shine for the Lord. The point in view here is not concerned with salvation, rather is it a matter of work and testimony. There are many churches today that are simply removed candlesticks in the eyes of the Lord.

[Faithful]

Re: http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mor...Animals/Cattle

That's funny. In response to no cows in the Americas until after Columbus, Mormons say when the word "cow" was used it was really meant to mean buffalo. Funny. A cow is a cow. A buffalo is a buffalo. Whenever you get in a pickle you can't just change the meaning of the world. Now you have to distinguish between a cow buffalo and a cow cow? Funny.

And the claim the word "cow" was used in the Americas must be substantiated by someone other than a Mormon.

If there were so many cows as stated in in 1 Neph. 18.25 why are there no skeletal remains anywhere? There should be lots like we do for other animals. I don't think Mormons care about the truth. They only care about rationalizing their flesh come hell or highwater.



Now Mormon scholars, I use that word loosely, admit there was no genetic connection to the Amerindians that can be found because they claim their Lehites, Nephites and other phites were relatively isolated. How can a battle on Cumorah with over a million Lehite descendants not get transmitted in DNA with Amerindians? Funny.

By the way why are Mormon terms so subliminal? For example cum sounds like part of the word Cumorah. Black laminites sound lame.

[Parture]

Backsliding only comes up in the Old Testament books of Jeremiah (12) and Hosea (3). It’s never used in my KJV New Testament. There is no definition and it always refers groups of people, never individuals.

· Jeremiah 3:22

22 Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the Lord our God.

· Hosea 4:16

16 For Israel slideth back as a backsliding heifer: now the Lord will feed them as a lamb in a large place.

· Jeremiah 3:11

11 And the Lord said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.

· Hosea 11:7

7 And my people are bent to backsliding from me: though they called them to the most High, none at all would exalt him.

· Jeremiah 49:4

4 Wherefore gloriest thou in the valleys, thy flowing valley, O backsliding daughter? that trusted in her treasures, saying, Who shall come unto me?

· Jeremiah 8:5

5 Why then is this people of Jerusalem slidden back by a perpetual backsliding? they hold fast deceit, they refuse to return.

· Hosea 14:4

4 ¶I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.

· Jeremiah 3:6

6 ¶The Lord said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.

· Jeremiah 3:8

8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

· Jeremiah 3:14

14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the Lord; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

· Jeremiah 31:22

22 ¶How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the Lord hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.

· Jeremiah 14:7

7 ¶O Lord, though our iniquities testify against us, do thou it for thy name’s sake: for our backslidings are many; we have sinned against thee.

· Jeremiah 5:6

6 Wherefore a lion out of the forest shall slay them, and a wolf of the evenings shall spoil them, a leopard shall watch over their cities: every one that goeth out thence shall be torn in pieces: because their transgressions are many, and their backslidings are increased.

· Jeremiah 2:19

19 Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the Lord thy God, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the Lord God of hosts.
•Galatians 5:4 indicates that it is possible for Christians to fall from grace if the rely on the law of Moses and not Christ:

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

· Our Doctrine and Covenants 20:32 indicates it is possible for the elect to fall from grace:

32 But there is a possibility that man may fall from grace and depart from the living God;

There is also no verse that contrasts backsliding with falling from grace because backsliding is about groups of people in the Old Testament when the Law of Moses was in effect. Would you say Judas Iscariot fell from grace or was he just a backslider? Why was he chosen as an apostle if he wasn’t worthy. Was he once saved? What about all the Christians in the churches mentioned in Revelation who fell into sin. Were they just backsliders?

I think your personal view of “once saved always saved” ignores many New Testament scriptures that indicate individuals can fall from grace: 1 Cor. 9:27; 10:12; 2 Cor. 6:1; Gal. 5:1-6; 6:9; Phil. 2:12; 1 Tim. 1:18-19; 4:1; 5:12; Heb. 3:12-14; 4:10-11; 6:4-6; 10:26-29, 39; 12:15; 2 Pet. 2:1-2, 20-21; 3:17; 1 Jn. 5:16; 2 Jn. 8-9; Rev. 2:5; 3:5. It is a dangerous delusion that Protestant Christians can’t even agree on. See: http://www.anointedlinks.com/once_saved.html

It is a Calvinist doctrine and is just as wrong as the rest of Calvinist’s five points. Just look up TULIP vs.DAISY or Arminianism vs Calvinism on the Internet. Or google “Once Saved, Always Saved? Calvinism Refuted” If Protestant scholars can’t agree on such doctrines and modern revelation contradicts it, why do you think you have the truth? Trust me, you don’t.

I’m going out of town today so don’t bother responding to this. May the Lord bless you in your search for truth.

Michael Hickenbotham

Think about how strange your premise is that there is no backsliding. If there is no backsliding then all believers will never commit a sin or be selfish ever again. Yet, the Bible is constantly warning us not to backslide, e.g. [Rev 2:4-5 NKJV] 4 "Nevertheless I have [this] against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place--unless you repent."

You have not distinguished between two types of OSAS. Yes, of course, there is the Calvinist OSAS of being irresistibly selected, but Calvinists are not Christians since God doesn't irresistibly impose salvation on anyone. But there is Biblical OSAS in which a person gives their life not to any Jesus but the Jesus who always keeps. This is the type of humility God wants from us to save us, not your faith which says you can be saved, lose it, get it back, lose it again, etc. He simply doesn't save you to begin with in that delusion.

I'll take one of the verses you gave, the first one, 1 Cor. 9.27 to show you how you misread the Bible. "But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified" (1 Cor. 9.27).

Disqualified here is not losing salvation but losing the reward of reigning with Christ in the millennial kingdom. You misapply the temporary millennial reign with eternity future. Remember, when Jesus returns, He returns to reign on earth for 1000 years before the New City and New Earth commence in eternity future. Praise God!