Have you accepted partial rapture yet?

[Churchwork]

Let us hear you end-time view and give the reason why.

What God has shown me is the blessing of Rev. 1.3, partial or separate rapture which says, and proven in the Word of God, that if you have kept the Word of His patience (Rev. 3.10), which not all Christians do, to escape the "Hour of trial" itself (not just trial), you may be ready to be received "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9); that is, before the trumpets of the Tribulation (in Revelation 8) begin, and be "accounted worthy" to "escape these things which are to come to pass" (Luke 21.36) of the Great Tribulation.

The reason why overcomers are received at first rapture is because they need not go through the time of testing, since there is nothing to test. They are overcomers, and thus, ready to be received to the throne before the Tribulation commences. On the other hand, Christians who are still behaving and living fleshly or carnally, will need to go through further testing in the Tribulation, even unto martyrdom.

Praise the Lord for this discernment!

[Stephen]

Let us hear you end-time view and give the reason why.

What God has shown me is the blessing of Rev. 1.3, partial or separate rapture which says, and proven in the Word of God, that if you have kept the Word of His patience (Rev. 3.10), which not all Christians do, to escape the "Hour of trial" itself (not just trial), you may be ready to be received "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9); that is, before the trumpets of the Tribulation (in Revelation 8) begin, and be "accounted worthy" to "escape these things which are to come to pass" (Luke 21.36) of the Great Tribulation.

The reason why overcomers are received at first rapture is because they need not go through the time of testing, since there is nothing to test. They are overcomers, and thus, ready to be received to the throne before the Tribulation commences. On the other hand, Christians who are still behaving and living fleshly or carnally, will need to go through further testing in the Tribulation, even unto martyrdom.

Praise the Lord for this discernment!

What do you mean with the term "partial rapture"


Sounds to me like a post office employee where something is only half wrapped??

[Churchwork]

Why ask after it was already said and shown? What did you not understand?

There is a partial rapture at first rapture and completion at the last trumpet.

Separate rapture or partial rapture describe most aptly God's working at the consummation of this age.

[bertie]

when one reads on from rev.7-9
one finds in rev7-14-that this multitude is composed of the people that have gone through part if not all of the tribulation.
rev7-14and i said into him,sir thou knowest(who the multitude is)
and he said to me These are they which come out of the great tribulation,and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb.
15Therefore are they before the throne of God,and serve Him day and night in his temple:and he that sitteth on the throne will dwell among them.
rev7- 16 -17tells their fate-16).they shall hunger no more,neither thirst any more;neither shall the sunlight on them,nor any heat.17)For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them,and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters:and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
these are the saints from the tribulation.
there are at this time still followers of jesus alive on earth.later on in rev11 -17 it tells that satan, having been cast down from heaven,goes to make war on the remnant who belive in god, keep His commandments,and have a testimony of Jesus Christ-ie.-more christians on earth,surviving the tribulation,not raptured,and here just prior to the wrath of god being poured out.
I cant seem to find that which indicates a partial rapture as those who are in the crowd have all been through some part of the trib and died as a result of their faith.(in the verses quoted.)perhaps there is other coroberating scripture?Also there are saints still on earth when satan is cast down.............:confused:

[Churchwork]

when one reads on from rev.7-9
one finds in rev7-14-that this multitude is composed of the people that have gone through part if not all of the tribulation.
rev7-14and i said into him,sir thou knowest(who the multitude is)
and he said to me These are they which come out of the great tribulation,and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb.
15Therefore are they before the throne of God,and serve Him day and night in his temple:and he that sitteth on the throne will dwell among them.
rev7- 16 -17tells their fate-16).they shall hunger no more,neither thirst any more;neither shall the sunlight on them,nor any heat.17)For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them,and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters:and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
these are the saints from the tribulation.

The tribulation of the past 20 centuries!


there are at this time still followers of jesus alive on earth.later on in rev11 -17 it tells that satan, having been cast down from heaven,goes to make war on the remnant who belive in god, keep His commandments,and have a testimony of Jesus Christ-ie.-more christians on earth,surviving the tribulation,not raptured,and here just prior to the wrath of god being poured out.
Yes.


I cant seem to find that which indicates a partial rapture as those who are in the crowd have all been through some part of the trib and died as a result of their faith.(in the verses quoted.)perhaps there is other coroberating scripture?Also there are saints still on earth when satan is cast down.............:confused:

Please note that 7.9-17 narrates the period from the rapture (the first rapture) to eternity (the new heaven and the new earth). What is described in 7.15-17 depicts the same scene as found in 21.3-7.

Note also that 7.9-17 only deals with the rapture generally, not exclusively; and neither does it speak exclusively of the scene of eternal blessing. Consequently, we must not conclude that what is given here is indicative of the rapture of the whole church once and for all; for nothing is said as to how this vast multitude got there, it only states that they are there.

Rev. 7.14 The phrase “the great tribulation” is not the Great Tribulation of three years and half duration. The reasons are as follows.

(1) At the earliest, the Great Tribulation should commence at the sounding of the “woe” trumpets, the first of which is the fifth (8.13, 9.1a). Yet in 7.9 is an intimation of a rapture having taken place before the seventh seal. Some of these people must have arrived at the throne without passing through the time of the “woe” trumpets.

(2) The Great Tribulation cannot begin before Satan is cast down to earth. Satan will be cast down at the sounding of the fifth trumpet (9.1); and before the horrible situation of the 42 months prevails on earth (13.5), the man child is already raptured to the throne (12.5). Though this man child may not include all the people referred to in 7.9, nonetheless we dare say that it embraces a part of that great multitude.

(3) As soon as the seventh bowl is poured, the kingdom arrives. During the kingdom age we do not see the temple in heaven, instead we see the temple on earth as described in Ezekiel. Who will have the time and opportunity to serve God during the Great Tribulation? Yet in 7.15 clearly states that God’s servants serve Him day and night.

(4) There cannot be so many people saved at Great Tribulation. Since the great multitude mentioned in 7.9 is said to have come out of the great tribulation (7.14), this great tribulation must be different from that which comes at the fifth and sixth trumpets.

(5) According to 11.1, there are those who worship in the temple of God in heaven. Aside from the people cited in 7.9, where can there be found any who worship God in heaven? For at that time the Great Tribulation as predicted in the book of Revelation has yet to begin. In the new heaven and new earth, no temple is seen (21.22) because the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are the temple thereof. (God and the Lamb form the center of the new city. Following the mentioning of the temple of God in 3.12 are found the words “he shall go out thence no more”, for the simple reason that God and the Lamb are the temple in the new heaven and new earth.)

(6) The Bible expressly says that there are believers who do not pass through the Great Tribulation (for example, Luke 21.36 and Rev. 3.10).

(7) Suppose these people mentioned in 7.9 did in fact pass through the Great Tribulation of three and a half years; then they must have died at the time when the temple is trodden underfoot by the nations. But according to what is given in 11.2 it is impossible to include the church therein. So how can it be held that the multitude cited in 7.9 comes out of the Great Tribulation of three and a half years?

(8) The Great Tribulation of three years and a half spoken of in Revelation is especially related to the Jews. Both Daniel 12.1 – “And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and that time thy people shall be delivered . . . “ – and Matthew 24.16-18 depict particularly the situation of the Jewish people. God’s primary purpose is to make use of the Great Tribulation to deal with the Jews. “The time of Jacob’s trouble” spoken of in Jeremiah 30.7 manifestly points to the Jews. But in the book of Revelation reference is made to the subject of tribulation several times in connection with the church, such as in 1.9 and 2.9-10,13. According to John 16.33 tribulation seems to be the earthly portion of the church for she must pass through a prolonged duration of sufferings. Accordingly, this tribulation may also be described in the same way as Revelation 7.14 itself literally does in the Greek original, namely: “the tribulation the great”. Nevertheless, the great tribulation cited in Revelation 2.22 is very different from that of 7.14, nor is it the same as that of the three and a half years mentioned elsewhere in Revelation. (The words “through many tribulations we must enter into the kingdom of God” in Acts 14.22 has reference to the common experience those who enter the kingdom of God will share on earth.)

[Evanescence]

What do you mean with the term "partial rapture"


Sounds to me like a post office employee where something is only half wrapped??

I'm confused as well :confused: I never heard of this term, what church believes in a "partial rapture" ?

Evanescence

[Churchwork]

Evanescence,

There is only one church, not two churches.

Very few brothers and sisters in Christ actually accept partial rapture since this understanding is a matter of spirituality; most prefer to be either pretribulation only rapture believers or post-trib rapture only believers, yet they disagree and divide themselves against God's will.

Partial rapture brings them together according to God's will so there is a first rapture according according to readiness as God intended, and a rapture/resurrection at the last trumpet of the harvest of those that are alive and left and those awaiting to be raised who had been asleep.

I am not surprised you never heard of this in the Word, for you have been blinded by the biggest cult in the world, roman catholicism. You need to be delivered. You should appreciate how Satan has confused even brother and sisters in Christ that they would divide falsely between pre- and post-trib rapture, let alone the historicalism heresy of the great harlot of religious Rome that you belong to.

[saint]

Evanescence,

There is only one church, not two churches.

Very few brothers and sisters in Christ actually accept partial rapture since this understanding is a matter of spirituality; most prefer to be either pretribulation only rapture believers or post-trib rapture only believers, yet they disagree and divide themselves against God's will.

Partial rapture brings them together according to God's will so there is a first rapture according according to readiness as God intended, and a rapture/resurrection at the last trumpet of the harvest of those that are alive and left and those awaiting to be raised who had been asleep.

I am not surprised you never heard of this in the Word, for you have been blinded by the biggest cult in the world, roman catholicism. You need to be delivered. You should appreciate how Satan has confused even brother and sisters in Christ that they would divide falsely between pre- and post-trib rapture, let alone the historicalism heresy of the great harlot of religious Rome that you belong to.Actually, most of the Church does not believe in a 'rapture' at all... simply Christ returning to establish His kingdom.

I asked a good friend who spent 20 years as a missionary in Africa about the beliefs there. He laughed and replied, "Just one more American fad."

[Churchwork]

Actually, most of the Church does not believe in a 'rapture' at all... simply Christ returning to establish His kingdom.

I asked a good friend who spent 20 years as a missionary in Africa about the beliefs there. He laughed and replied, "Just one more American fad."

What you consider to be the Church is not the Church at all. It is but the tares in the outward appearance of the kingdom trying to make itself look like the wheat, that is, the Church.

Christ was raptured, raised up, so shall those in Christ be raised up, raptured. What you speak of is not the Church for the Church believes in 1 Cor. 15.50-52, 1 Thess. 4.15-17.

Christ will return with His saints (Jude 1.14-15). In order to return with His saints, they first need to be raptured.

Since you do not believe Christ will raise from the dead to rapture believers, I can say you are not a Christian, since no Christian believes what you do, that the saints won't be raptured. You are not a saint.

You were not speaking to a Christian missionary, since this missionary, according to your story, rejected these verses. There has been several raptures already,

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/12raptures.htm

[~~TurboWaitress~~]

Very few brothers and sisters in Christ actually accept partial rapture since this understanding is a matter of spirituality

Apart from you, do you know of anyone else at all that believes in a "partial rapture" or is this a belief you interpretated on your own?


~~TurboWaitress~~

[Churchwork]

TurboWaitress,

Simon on this forum also believes in partial rapture. Watchman Nee is another. Here a list of others that also believed,

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/PartialRaptureBelievers.htm

I can list another several dozen as well not on this list.

[Maiden]

looks like only a handfull of people will go to heaven if only those who accept "partial rapture" will be saved.

Do you have any evidence of early church fathers teaching "partial rapture" ?

Maiden

[Churchwork]

Maiden,

Since no one on this forum has said that only those who believe in partial rapture will be saved, where do you come up with your accusation if not from your flesh?

I only have evidence the early church fathers believed in chiliasm which is premillennialism.

Remember, partial rapture is a matter of understanding that comes from being more spiritual. Only once you are a more spiritually discerning in your spirit will you see that partial rapture solves the problem of disagreement between pre- and post-trib premillennialism (this includes all other premillennial views like mid-trib and pre-wrath).

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Earlychurchfathers.htm

You are banned because of the cumulative posts where you accuse falsely: always accusing and not trying to grow spiritually by discerning and understanding the truth by God's grace.

[RatioAnn]

I am pre-trib, pre-mill. I really don't like the idea of partial rapture. One thing that bothers me is it shifts the responsibility to us; for example, a person could say, 'I have achieved enough or have reached the point where I am ready to be raptured now.' No, no, Everything we need has been done at the cross, repentance is a requirement, but it does not save, neither does the degree of change in a believers life.

I've rarely seen someone act as immaturely as you have on this board.. and others even.

I am not opposed to being banned in any way, especially since I will probably never post here again.

[Churchwork]

I am pre-trib, pre-mill. I really don't like the idea of partial rapture. One thing that bothers me is it shifts the responsibility to us; for example, a person could say, 'I have achieved enough or have reached the point where I am ready to be raptured now.' No, no, Everything we need has been done at the cross, repentance is a requirement, but it does not save, neither does the degree of change in a believers life.
We are not automatons. God wants our participation. He longs to see us overcome in Him through His grace and abiding work of the Holy Spirit in the spirit of the believer.

People can say anything they like. And they do. Especially those who overassume their rapture before Tribulation so they can live a life of careless lack of concern. But to believe in partial rapture leads one to seek towards overcoming to be received at first rapture to escape the hour of trial IF, and only if, we keep the Word of His patience. God decides if we fulfill His condition, and all we do as believers is continue to work towards His fulfillment for our lives for His final decision. This is what those who believe in partial rapture believe.

Salvation has three main stages: (1) new birth, (2) overcoming, (3) reigning in the millennium or loss of rewards of reigning in the millennium.

In order to be saved, first you must repent to come to the cross. Yes, yes. Truly repenting leads to truly believing. This is the meaning behind the work of John the Baptist. This is fulfilling the condition God has set for us to receive His saving grace, as well as increased faith after being saved towards overcoming and the receiving rewards of reigning with Christ in the millennium; even the readiness of being received at first rapture "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) before the trumpets of the Tribulation are blown.

"It is finished" - The substition of Christ has been accomplished on the cross, and we need do nothing to receive forgiveness of sins, but believe on the only begotten Son of God. To believe is to to receive and to be able to truly receive you will need to repent to the measure God requires so your believing is authentic. Many try to believe, or should I say claim they believe, but in fact they do not (it is forced), which is why Jesus spoke of the "tares" who try to look like the wheat in the kingdom but are not born-again.

Many teach what is called antinomianism, which simply means they claim the cross to receive forgiveness, but their fruit does not show forth from the claimed forgiveness. They want the substitionary work of Christ, but they don't care for co-crucifixion with Christ. Again, this would account for the "tares" who try to look like the wheat but Jesus will put the sickle to separate them from His own. One of those false fruits would be overassuming first rapture as taught by those who are pretrib onlyists. It is not difficult to see the negative consequence of this overassuming.

If you overassume, saying to yourself 'I have achieved enough or have reached the point where I am ready to be raptured now' based on the cross with no co-death experience with Christ, then no fruit comes from your life. Resurrection life is that which death can not contain. You would be assuming a salvation from the cross that may never have happened. And this directly plays out in your end-time view.

If you assume you are going to be raptured at the first rapture, no matter what you do or don't do, then as you enter into the Tribulation, you won't realize it because you had overassumed you would be raptured before the Tribulation, by denyng the principle of advanced parties and harbingers in every sphere - there is a first fruits and a later harvest; there is the man child and then all the saved; there are those "taken" and the "left" who are also "alive" (1 Thess. 4.15,17).

There is Enoch who was raptured and Noah who went through the Tribulation. Both were saved. Elijah was taken, Elisha was left. Both were saved. Abraham was the intercessor and Lot passed through tribulation. The disciples were left and saved. Jesus was raptured. Philip was taken, and the eunuch was left behind. All those left behind were saved before being left behind.

But in your case, when you are in the Tribulation, you won't realize it because you will still be thinking it is not the Tribulation since if it was you think to yourself, you would have already been raptured. Then you take the mark of the beast since you also would assume it is not the mark of the beast, because you don't think you would have to refuse it in the Tribulation if you are not in the Tribulation, and according to you you are guaranteed to be raptured before the Tribulation no matter what you do or don't do. This is called antinomianism, a false salvation. This does not mean every single last pretrib onlyists is unsaved, but a much greater portion are unsaved than you think.

We must conclude that first rapture is according to readiness. Your whole argument is that rapture is part of redemption, that since redemption is according to grace, rapture cannot be based on the concept of worthiness. In reply, it needs to be pointed out that while the act of changing (see 1 Cor. 15.51-52) is indeed according to grace, the act of being taken (rapture) is according to works. The degree of change that you experience while still in the body if you are saved, will directly impact rewards. This is why they call the millennium the time of recompense, for it is a recompense for believers to be judged at judgment seat before the millennium commences. You need to ask whether you think a carnal believer (though saved) lying on a bed of fornication will be raptured and not need to go through the time of test? To be born-again is not a ticket to sin as you like or to overassume first rapture. This is not humble nor loving. And as Rev. 3.10 and Luke 21.36 point out, to escape the Hour of trial, you will need to keep His patient Word to be accounted worthy. Many Christians may find this distasteful. This is why there is loss of rewards for believers.


I've rarely seen someone act as immaturely as you have on this board.. and others even.

I am not opposed to being banned in any way, especially since I will probably never post here again.
Notice your self-declaration, yet you give no reason, no example of your accusation. Is not Satan that great accuser who blames without reason? How are you any different?

No one is banned on this forum. People are only deleted. If you are deleted it will be because of belligerent self-declarations such as the one you gave. This is very immature and without the love of the Lord. My prayer goes out to you that you may yet change one day.

[RatioAnn]

No one is banned on this forum. People are only deleted. If you are deleted it will be because of belligerent self-declarations such as the one you gave. This is very immature and without the love of the Lord. My prayer goes out to you that you may yet change one day.

Well, that didn't take very long... While do still have some reservations about the theology; I should not have wrote what I wrote. :embarrass: I'm sorry for that.


We are not automatons. God wants our participation. He longs to see us overcome in Him through His grace and abiding work of the Holy Spirit in the spirit of the believer. I agree


People can say anything they like. And they do. Especially those who overassume their rapture before Tribulation so they can live a life of careless lack of concern. But to believe in partial rapture leads one to seek towards overcoming to be received at first rapture to escape the hour of trial IF, and only if, we keep the Word of His patience. God decides if we fulfill His condition, and all we do as believers is continue to work towards His fulfillment for our lives for His final decision. This is what those who believe in partial rapture believe.
I don't see the (first) rapture as an escape, because we don't know when it will be it should make us want to be about His business as much as possible because we don't know when our opportunity will be over.


Salvation has three main stages: (1) new birth, (2) overcoming, (3) reigning in the millennium or loss of rewards of reigning in the millennium.
(1) I agree (2) 'not sure' (3) 'not sure'


In order to be saved, first you must repent to come to the cross. Yes, yes. Truly repenting leads to truly believing. This is the meaning behind the work of John the Baptist. This is fulfilling the condition God has set for us to receive His saving grace, as well as increased faith after being saved towards overcoming and the receiving rewards of reigning with Christ in the millennium; even the readiness of being received at first rapture "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) before the trumpets of the Tribulation are blown.

"It is finished" - The substition of Christ has been accomplished on the cross, and we need do nothing to receive forgiveness of sins, but believe on the only begotten Son of God. To believe is to to receive and to be able to truly receive you will need to repent to the measure God requires so your believing is authentic. Many try to believe, or should I say claim they believe, but in fact they do not (it is forced), which is why Jesus spoke of the "tares" who try to look like the wheat in the kingdom but are not born-again.

Okay, I can agree with this.


Many teach what is called antinomianism, which simply means they claim the cross to receive forgiveness, but their fruit does not show forth from the claimed forgiveness. They want the substitionary work of Christ, but they don't care for co-crucifixion with Christ. Again, this would account for the "tares" who try to look like the wheat but Jesus will put the sickle to separate them from His own. One of those false fruits would be overassuming first rapture as taught by those who are pretrib onlyists. It is not difficult to see the negative consequence of this overassuming.

If you overassume, saying to yourself or have reached the point where I am ready to be raptured now' based on the cross with no co-death experience with Christ, then no fruit comes from your life. Resurrection life is that which death can not contain. You would be assuming a salvation from the cross that may never have happened. And this directly plays out in your end-time view.

I agree with two exceptions. Obviously, I'm a pre-tribber only-ist, so I don't see that as a false fruit. Second, I was saying the partial rature person would say, 'I have achieved enough...' because after the first rapture those left will be working for that end.. it puts the ball in the persons court when the control is Gods alone.


If you assume you are going to be raptured at the first rapture, no matter what you do or don't do, then as you enter into the Tribulation, you won't realize it because you had overassumed you would be raptured before the Tribulation, by denyng the principle of advanced parties and harbingers in every sphere - there is a first fruits and a later harvest; there is the man child and then all the saved; there are those "taken" and the "left" who are also "alive" (1 Thess. 4.15,17).

I don't do anything to be saved and likewise I can do nothing to earn the blessing of rapture. If someone is not raptured during the first rapture, I call into question their salvation. I'm glad to see you at least agree that their are false converts; most people don't even like to hear that much. Now, I do think people will be saved post rapture, but they will have to endure the trib period & will do God's will in the meantime. For example, the 144,000 will be on earth then... after the rapture.


There is Enoch who was raptured and Noah who went through the Tribulation. Both were saved. Elijah was taken, Elisha was left. Both were saved. Abraham was the intercessor and Lot passed through tribulation. The disciples were left and saved. Jesus was raptured. Philip was taken, and the eunuch was left behind. All those left behind were saved before being left behind.

I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about these events. I mostly see them as types of the rapture which will come.


But in your case, when you are in the Tribulation, you won't realize it because you will still be thinking it is not the Tribulation since if it was you think to yourself, you would have already been raptured. Then you take the mark of the beast since you also would assume it is not the mark of the beast, because you don't think you would have to refuse it in the Tribulation if you are not in the Tribulation, and according to you you are guaranteed to be raptured before the Tribulation no matter what you do or don't do. This is called antinomianism, a false salvation. This does not mean every single last pretrib onlyists is unsaved, but a much greater portion are unsaved than you think.

Oh I think there are unsaved in all camps of thought.. mine and yours. And many will be saved in each area too. Could someone go through the trib without thinking they are? It's seems hard to believe, but yeah, I'm sure it could/will happen. Will it be me specifically? err.. I hope not.


We must conclude that first rapture is according to readiness. Your whole argument is that rapture is part of redemption, that since redemption is according to grace, rapture cannot be based on the concept of worthiness. In reply, it needs to be pointed out that while the act of changing (see 1 Cor. 15.51-52) is indeed according to grace, the act of being taken (rapture) is according to works.
No, I disagree on rapture having anything to do with works. All the good I do is only made possible by God anyways. Besides that, I don't see a partial rapture playing out in the book of Revelation.



The degree of change that you experience while still in the body if you are saved, will directly impact rewards. This is why they call the millennium the time of recompense, for it is a recompense for believers to be judged at judgment seat before the millennium commences. You need to ask whether you think a carnal believer (though saved) lying on a bed of fornication will be raptured and not need to go through the time of test? To be born-again is not a ticket to sin as you like or to overassume first rapture. This is not humble nor loving. And as Rev. 3.10 and Luke 21.36 point out, to escape the Hour of trial, you will need to keep His patient Word to be accounted worthy. Many Christians may find this distasteful. This is why there is loss of rewards for believers.

Carnal believer? no no. The born again believer will not sin like a carnal person.. trip-ups? sure. Diving in? never. I know very well that trusting the Lord is difficult, but (& I am sure you agree here) it must be done. If the good fruit is not there, they're probably not saved. Those that missed the 1st rapture because they thought they had time to play and not work are out of luck; no more raptures, but they can still be saved & should be thankful for that.

[Churchwork]

Well, that didn't take very long.
You too.


I don't see the (first) rapture as an escape, because we don't know when it will be it should make us want to be about His business as much as possible because we don't know when our opportunity will be over.

Because we don't know when parousia will commence, it does not dictate first rapture is not according to readiness to escape these things which will happen to all the world in the Tribulation, for the Word of God states, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Luke 21.36). Clearly, God says IF we watch and IF we pray. Why give this warning about escaping the Tribulation if it is not so? This renders your idea of overassuming your rapture before the Tribulation without humility and with this pride, consequently, not being about His business. Because we don't know when Christ will return, it should cause us to do two things: (1) be about His business, and (2) not overassume our rapture as we humbly accept His decision whether we are ready at the first rapture to be received "before the Throne" (Rev. 7.9). Many do not have the humility to accept (1), let alone (2). Let us leave it up to God's decision, not make God's decision for Him about first rapture. Remember this verse well: "Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that [hour] which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev. 3.10). God is not vain. He does not warn us about what is needed and then not produce a consequence for non-overcoming Christians who overassumed their rapture before the Tribulation.


(1) I agree (2) 'not sure' (3) 'not sure'
How can you be not sure about about overcoming in Christ (2) and rewards (3) when you also, in your profile, said "no" to "outer darkness" not being a consequence for not overcoming? You have adamantly rejected the matter of consequences for Christians and then said in the same breath you are "not sure" about (2) and (3). Be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8). Throughout the Scriptures God is calling for the believer to overcome; why would you reject God's loving Word to overcome? It's the heresy of antinomianism in your heart as previously mentioned that you are under and which you need deliverance from.


Okay, I can agree with this.
If you agree with this, then you should check yourself, because you are agreeing with first rapture according to readiness (which only some Christians fulfill) and the rewards given only the saved who overcome to reign in the millennium. This would disagree with your previous view of being a pretribulation onlyists and rejecting loss of rewards in "outer darkness" for non-overcomers.


I agree with two exceptions. Obviously, I'm a pre-tribber only-ist, so I don't see that as a false fruit. Second, I was saying the partial rature person would say, 'I have achieved enough...' because after the first rapture those left will be working for that end.. it puts the ball in the persons court when the control is Gods alone.
Your conscience can't see your negative fruit even after it is explained to you again and again, which indicates something is wrong with you in your inner spirit: rejecting co-death, which is selfish and overassuming rapture not according to readiness by altering Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36 and other verses in your heart. Partial rapture believers do not say "I have achieved enough," so do you see, as previously stated, how you make this claim without basis like you are the great accuser? Your idea depends on you sinning bearing false witness, but the Spirit's truth flows that if you don't know if you are going to be raptured at the first rapture, you will be more likely to seek to overcome, and if in so doing, you will be received to the throne before the Tribulation. This is the cause and affect: accepting the truth (partial rapture), causes one to overcome sooner than otherwise. You teach you have achieved enough (putting the ball in your court) to be raptured before the Tribulation, whereas those who believe in partial rapture do not know if they will be raptured at the first which leaves the ball in God's court to decide; and all we do is continue to work to that end. In your case, you have already decided and declared to God what will happen to yourself. We choose not to pre-decide, and thus receive the blessing of Rev. 1.3, "Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand" that you are without.


I don't do anything to be saved and likewise I can do nothing to earn the blessing of rapture. If someone is not raptured during the first rapture, I call into question their salvation. I'm glad to see you at least agree that their are false converts; most people don't even like to hear that much. Now, I do think people will be saved post rapture, but they will have to endure the trib period & will do God's will in the meantime. For example, the 144,000 will be on earth then... after the rapture.
If you are speaking of not doing anything to be saved, you deceive yourself, since God requires you to believe (John 3.16,18) which is doing something to receive His saving grace. Similarly, to overcome in Christ, you must also abide in the works God has set for you to be saved further unto rewards. You ought to come out of antinominianism, and distinguish between new birth and a life of overcoming, bearing your daily crosses and abiding in God's will for you. Remember, we have seen together that you have to alter Scripture when you reject first rapture according to readiness by saying that rapture is only part of redemption (initial salvation), that since redemption is according to grace, rapture cannot be based on the concept of worthiness. In reply, it needs to be pointed out that while the act of changing (see 1 Cor. 15.51-52) is indeed according to grace, the act of being taken (rapture) is according to works (Luke 21.36). This is why God explains that to escape the Hour of trial (the actual time period of the last week), you will need to be "accounted worthy" by being watchful, prayerful, keeping His patient Word and the conduct of Matthew 5-7. Many Christians find this too distasteful as they lie on their bed of fornication or simply fall short of the glory of God below what God will deem as required for first rapture. Like a balloon tied down to an object of the earth, you don't sound like you want to be released like an Enoch or an Elijah who typify first rapture.

The scenario I see happening for you is as follows. You will be in the Tribulation, I have no doubt about that. It seems you most likely will not realize when you are in the Tribulation because you think to yourself if it really was the Tribulation you would have been raptured. Thus, you are free to take the mark of the beast, assuming it would not be the mark, since if it was the mark, you would have already been raptured. Do you see the negative consequence of your faith? You have no regard for chiliasm, the view of Christians in the first century. This is your pride. If God continues to warn that there are consequences for believers if we do not overcome, then why do you reject His Word? It's called antinomianism, rejecting co-death with Christ, and assuming you have already overcome, not realizing both sin and self need to be delivered unto death. You will be saying to people if you are not raptured before the Tribulation, you are not saved, all the while you are in the Tribulation and are not born-again, about to take the mark of the beast. How deceitful the devil is who causes the Word to be changed in your heart. He wants you to remain unsaved, or at the very least if you are saved, to remain a carnal Christian to lead people away from Christ and make a mockery of the Church.

You do not understand the meaning of the 144,000. The first set of 144,000 (Rev. 7) are the Jewish remnant who will hide in the wilderness and Satan's wrath will not be able to find them. The second set of 144,000 (Rev. 14.-15) are the first fruits who will be mostly raptured at the first rapture (there could be a few of them in the Tribulation itself). They are Christians, and actual virgins. They are not necessarily most spiritual, but they keep their chastity. This has great implication because in eternity future there is no sexual relations for those who live in the new city, and thus, the 144,000 begin already their lives in eternity future of chastity. They will be the closest to Christ when they return to reign in the millennial kingdom.

I have full Scriptural explanations and proofs for this on any part, just ask.


I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about these events. I mostly see them as types of the rapture which will come.
In a few short words that I give you, you would now know this about these examples of those who were saved before the Tribulation, except that some were not raptured at first rapture for not be accounted ready to be received: some were "taken" and some were "left" (Matt. 24.37,40-41). As a generalist, lacking being specific, naturally you will only want to see what you want to see vaguely: but it is hard to deny if you love the truth, that Elijah was taken, Elisha was left, Christ was taken, the disciples were left, Enoch was taken, Noah was left, Philip was taken, the eunuch was left. Paul knew he was saved, but he did not know if he would be "taken" before the Tribulation, which would be included in the first resurrection rewards of reigning with Christ in the millennium.


Oh I think there are unsaved in all camps of thought.. mine and yours. And many will be saved in each area too. Could someone go through the trib without thinking they are? It's seems hard to believe, but yeah, I'm sure it could/will happen. Will it be me specifically? err.. I hope not.
There are unsaved in all camps. We can only speak of what we know for sure, since only God knows the specific numbers. What can we say then? We can say a greater percentage of premillennial are saved that historicalists (amill., post-mill., preterisms). We can also say that a greater percentage of post-trib are saved than pre-trib, for the latter are so overassuming, and clearly have a lower conscience in experience. I can testify to this about the various many pretrib and posttrib people I know. This is all testable and provable in day to day life, but it can also be proven in lab experiments. I don't think anyone has ever done that, but it is doable. And still, you might be saved, but you will certainly lose rewards. Satan's objective is to find a way to get you to think it is not the Tribulation and to think you are already saved when you are not. He has fulfilled this in no better way than in your end-time view. And even if he might not be able to convince you that you are saved when you are not, because you are really saved, still he has caused you to go into carnality as much as could be possible for a Christian by denying accountability for Christians. This is your great sin. It sticks out like a sore thumb: antinomianism. In the Tribulation, there will be those who hide in caves, ashamed of themselves. Then, there will be others that will side with the Antichrist in a great army in the middle east. Still there will many of those who think they are saved when they are not, such as those like yourself, if you are not saved by then, who enter the Tribulation assuming it is not the Tribulation when it obviously is. It takes all kinds. Many will think the Tribulation is just WWIV as opposed to the ultimate consummation of this age. This is likely the position you will take as you have already indicated this would be your assumption when you are in the Tribulation. In this, we see another assumption on your part, that is, assuming most everyone would know the Tribulation is the Tribulation. This is consistent with your behavior pattern, your conduct, which you deem accurate, but can not possibly be.


No, I disagree on rapture having anything to do with works. All the good I do is only made possible by God anyways. Besides that, I don't see a partial rapture playing out in the book of Revelation.
You are free to disagree all your like, but God said to keep the conduct, Matthew 5-7. The hidden treasure is the reward of reigning with Christ that some Christians receive. In your faith there is no consequence not to keeping God's works set for you to abide in His will. This allows you to do anything you like without conscience so you think, but are you really saved? And if you are, do you really think you deserve the rewards of reigning for the 1000 years (Rev. 20.4)? If God leaves out the 5 unwise virgins, who are also saved, would you not also be left out of the marriage feast? This would not make God righteous if He did not deal with consequences to sin. The good you do could very well be of the "good self" and not good at all. These are the unsaved tares. The good self can not save you one iota. It is merely your own strength. This is sad really because you go your own way.

Thus, we must conclude given all that has been said, that first rapture is according to readiness, while the 7th trumpet resurrection is according to completion. There are many more proofs we can use, for example, to show that there is no rapture at Rev. 4 because ch. 4 is about the view of God's kingdom from heaven, ch. 5 is about the rapture of Christ, and ch. 6 is the past 20 centuries. John was only raptured in spirit, not bodily, so it was a vision. The 24 elders can not be the church either, http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Revelation_4.htm

I thought it would be helpful to show you this by retracing earliest steps to see initial mistaken assumptions can be dangerous and lead to a whole other belief systems which you are under.


Carnal believer? no no. The born again believer will not sin like a carnal person.. trip-ups? sure. Diving in? never. I know very well that trusting the Lord is difficult, but (& I am sure you agree here) it must be done. If the good fruit is not there, they're probably not saved. Those that missed the 1st rapture because they thought they had time to play and not work are out of luck; no more raptures, but they can still be saved & should be thankful for that.
Carnal believer? yes, yes. Just as one who is a babe in Christ has to grow, so too does one who is in Christ falls if he does not keep the conduct of Matthew 5-7, though remaining saved. Many Christians prefer to be soulish as possible, thus, shall lose rewards (not be included in the first resurrection, Rev. 20.4). A Christian will not sin like an unbeliever, but nor will a spiritual Christian sin like a carnal Christian. Know that you will be judged for your own words: you said "if the good fruit is not there, they're probably not saved;" by this we may conclude that you are not saved applying your own words to yourself since to overassume first rapture is not a good fruit but leads to rejecting accountability and rewards, no co-death, and thus not accepting truly the substitution of Christ. You may think you have time to play with overassuming to consider one day repenting, but by then it will be too late.

The pretrib view is all or nothing, but God's nature or way of doing things is through transitions. One of those transitions is firstfruits according to readiness or advanced parties.

[RatioAnn]

I would like to post a longer reply... but I lack the time right now. I will say one thing that might make my position clearer to you. I think calvinism is biblical.

[Churchwork]

I would like to post a longer reply... but I lack the time right now. I will say one thing that might make my position clearer to you. I think calvinism is biblical.

This is what creates confusion for you, since the pride of believing you were premade for salvation as taught by calvinism is not true. Yet you answered question 5 regarding "God foreknows our choice" with a "Yes": 5. Do you believe what God longs for is to see the man make the choice for Him out of the gift of being made in His image; to be drawn by God is His part and predestination is by His foreknowing our choice rather than premaking the person to choose?

Your answer is opposite to that of calvinism. All I can say in response is be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim 3.8). Do not say you are not a calvinist and then say you are. This is wrong. Either you are or you are not. Don't sit on the middle of the fence, for this is couth, recondite and banal. All 5 points of calvinsm are wrong. The spiritual progression of spirituality is from pre to post to partial. However, there is no need to be pre or post, for God's way is clearly shown in the Word pre+post. This is what I experienced in God's grace. I first became pre+post (partial), and never was pre or post to begin with.

We can see a similarity in the pride of the Spurgeons: premade for salvation like robots and no consequences for Christians and overassuming first rapture not according to readiness. This is too puffed up for a Christan.

Take for example osas arminian universal atonement: "For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that one died for all, therefore all died [all men and women are included, not just the saved]; and he died for all [again, His death speaks to all men and women], that they that live should no longer live unto themselves, but unto him who for their sakes died and rose again" (2 Cor. 5.14,15). Thus, Christians reject the pride of limited premaking or preprogramming for atonement and premaking for hell. This is cold and without life and bespeaks of one who tries to mak himself saved without God's grace to come up with such unholy ideas.

This is the deepest synopsis of end-time views which describes what we are dealing with in terms of the brethren,

Of the first school mentioned, names can be cited such as J. N. Darby, William Kelly (C. H. Spurgeon once said that Kelly’s brain was as large as the universe), R. A. Torrey (who later changed to a post-tribulation rapture view), Phillips Brooks, James Gray, Arno G. Gaebelein, J. A. Seiss, C. I. Scofield, and so forth. Of the second school, there could be listed such names as George Muller (who first believed in pre-tribulation rapture), A.J. Gordon of Boston, A. B. Simpson, W. J. Erdman, W. G. Moorehead, Henry Frost of Canada, James Wright, Benjamin Newton, and so on. And as to the third school, we have names such as Hudson Taylor, Robert Chapman, Robert Govett (Spurgeon praised his writings as having light a century ahead of his time and as being full of gold), G. H. Pember, D. M. Panton (the “prince of prophecy”) and others. None of the three schools can completely ignore the others, yet only one is correct. Let us therefore examine them with fairness, having the attitude of a judge and not that of a lawyer.

Spurgeon thought Kelly's brain was big, but Kelly did not even receive the blessing of Rev. 1.3, the conscience in awareness of first rapture according to readiness. Spurgeon contradicts himself, giving praise to Govett and Kelly, but not believing with what Govett taught. This is a contradiction. You have much to overcome. This only show how vital it is to get matters right non-overassumingly to start with, otherwise mountains must be overcome. You even deny overcoming for in your profile you said adamantly Christians do not overcome by saying "No". How said for you for your belief is not a fruit of the Spirit.

Conclusion: you remain in a poisoned spirit of dissension between yourself and chiliasts in the first century, whereas God's way is to remove all dissenssion with pre+post (partial or separate rapture). I don't want to leave you without a fully ample means of deliverance. I have read much, and find that best piece of deliverance work to break down your overassuming, is found in I, II, and III in the Partial Rapture Proof, http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Partial_rapture.htm

The way to break down your common thinking is to literally to be broken, and then God's grace with come into to show you the error of your ways.

My prayers go out to you for your repentance.