Is Shawn McCraney a Christian? He Rejects the Trinity

[Churchwork]

Shawn,

If the Father always existed as the first person and the Son as the 2nd person and the HS as the 3rd person and all 3 are uncreated before time and space, then why don't you believe the One Being of the Trinity? You tried to compare your role as a father, son and husband. While this is true, these are roles you play, whereas the 3 Persons of the Godhead don't have the authority and submission of the Father to the Son. The 3 Persons always existed as co-equal like is said in Phil. 2.

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/thewayofthelord.htm

You said your issue is they have 3 distinct wills. Are you teaching modalism? If Jesus does the perfect will of the Father so the Father has His own will and the Spirit has His own will then what's the problem? Jesus is never the Father, and the Father is never the Spirit, and the Spirit is never the Son.

If not then it seems like a charade. You mentioned James White believes in the Trinity. But I believe he is going to Hell because he is a Calvinist. I don't believe he was ever born-again because he admits he never repented and believed in Christ to be regenerated. He instead prefers to assume he was irresistibly selected (irresistibly regenerated) which forced him to repent and believe to be saved which is disingenuous to me. It is not a sincere way to come to the cross to assume you had no choice in the matter. We are depraved but not totally depraved. We have prevenient grace, that is, sufficient grace for all to have the free choice (irresistible grace) and are once-saved-always-saved. The Bible to me never separates regeneration and salvation. They are one and the same: the new birth, born-again, co-death. White will always reject the Jesus who died on the cross for all (unlimited atonement). His god is unwilling and unable to do that so God of the Bible trumps his god. And he believes some people are born for Hell given no opportunity for salvation (preterioned). That seems evil. As Dave Hunt said, What love is that?

If God asked me if you were born again in 1997 I would have to say no, because that is not the Jesus I believe in. I don't believe in a Jesus who doesn't have His own distinct will from the Father's will and the Spirit's will. Otherwise that is modalism or some other complicated term.

I mentioned J. Warner Wallace of Cold-Case Christianity who said most of his family members are Mormons. He became a Christian when he became anti-Mormon, he said. He said that if you don't believe in the Trinity you are going to Hell. I didn't know about the Trinity until after I was born-again, but when I learned about it, it made sense to me and accepted it wholly.

I propose if you came before Jesus at the Great White Throne and He said the Trinity is true you would not accept it. It's not clear you would accept it, because you didn't accept it ever in all your life. I can see how an ex-Mormon would reject the Trinity if he left Mormonism and believed he accepted Christ as his Savior, because Mormonism rejects the Trinity so you have gone to the far extreme the other way from polytheism to modalism. You've carried over something that is not right and doctrinally damaging (see links below). A babe in Christ may not know the Trinity, but would not reject the Trinity as they learn about the Triune God. I moved from accepting "all things sum in Christ" to learning about my God being Triune.

I am a trinity of my spirit, soul and body, but though at times it feels like they have their own distinct will as my spirit lusts after my flesh (sin of the body and self of the soul) and my flesh lusts after my spirit. These are 3 parts to my being that were created. Whereas the 3 Persons of the Godhead are distinct before time and space, but not separate. Likewise my 3 parts are distinct, but not separate. If I am a trinity (Heb. 4.12, 1 Thess. 5.23), but I did not exist before time and space, then God is a Trinity except that I am not 3 Persons, for only God is 3 Persons.

What if what you believe is not the Trinity so that you are actually rejecting God and in rebellion so that when you come before the GWT you won't repent because if you can't understand the Trinity now, you won't understand the Trinity later. There is no sin in Heaven so you couldn't enter Heaven.

The Trinity accounts for love because the persons of the Godhead have someone to love among themselves. So the 3 Persons are not attributes, but His very transcendent being: unity in Trinity and Trinity in unity.

The Trinity Accounts for the Deity of Jesus
This is often over looked, but make no mistake about it: all deviations from historical Trinitarianism have compromised the eternal divine nature of Jesus. It’s that simple. The Early Church Councils corrected the errors of Adoptionism (2nd Century), Docetism (2nd Century), Monarchianism (2nd and 3rd Century), Sabellianism (3rd Century), Arianism (4th Century), and Socinianism (16th and 17th Century). In addition to these historic mischaracterizations of the triune nature of God, there are several current mischaracterizations, including the polytheism of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and the denial of the Trinity present in many Unitarian groups, including the Christadelphians. When the Trinity is denied, Jesus is typically demoted from divinity or subjugated as a lessor being.

J. Warner Wallace on the Trinity:
http://coldcasechristianity.com/?s=Trinity
http://coldcasechristianity.com/2016/the-trinity-is-not-a-problem-its-a-solution/
http://coldcasechristianity.com/2016/why-the-trinity-is-so-important-in-the-first-place/
http://coldcasechristianity.com/2015/why-is-the-trinity-an-essential-christian-doctrine-cold-case-christianity-broadcast-24/ (audio)
http://coldcasechristianity.com/2015/why-is-the-trinity-an-essential-christian-doctrine/
http://coldcasechristianity.com/2016/what-is-god-like-searching-for-a-trinitarian-analogy/


I called into the Heart of the Matter show at the 51:09 minute mark.

Episode549 - Striking at the Root part 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yb3pwdvuRKQ

Athanasian Creed of the Trinity -
http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?6402-Athanasian-Creed-of-the-4th-Century&p=13313#post13313

[Churchwork]

When someone says the Trinity is not found in the Bible, just tell them the word Incarnation is not found in the Bible either. Let's not have any doublestandards. Each of the 3 Persons of the Godhead are described in similar ways: God, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, and loving. Not accepting the Triune God is a form of disobedience to God. Perhaps you think you have found a loophole. This feeds your flesh and you feel exalted by thinking you found a new angle never seen before and a new reason to look at God's nature and being differently than traditionally thought.

The Trinity solves at least three problems. First, it solves the conclusion of the evidence. The evidence is each of the 3 Persons of the Godhead are called God and given other traits of God. This is the most reasonable inference all 3 Persons make up God.

Second, theological issues are resolved. The Trinity accounts for the derivation of love. What kind of God would He be if He just picked any joe blow to die for the sins of the world? In fact, Jesus is God and that is why He has the authority to reconcile mankind to the Father. Shawn makes Jesus something less because even if he accepts Jesus is God incarnate, Jesus is still not the 2nd Person of the Trinity. If Jesus is not the 2nd Person of the Trinity then there is no love relationship within the Trinity from one Person to the Other in the Godhead since the Persons don't exist. You need someone to love. Otherwise, where is the love by the lover and the beloved? A person is needed to love and a person is needed to be loved. What is it that God loves before He creates anything? Can God experience love before time and space? Allah cannot for he has no one to love except selfishly himself only. Does God have to wait for someone or something to be created before he can love? Then He is not God. Therefore, the Triune God must be true. Their nature is love because their relationship to one another is that of love. You need the lover, the beloved and the spirit of love between them which requires a Trinity. Apparently Augustine came up with this. He is not a Christian though because he is a Calvinist. The Trinity doesn't have to wait to create to love and be loved. The Triune God has always been in this relationship in His 3 Persons. It's not a coincidence that God of the Bible is more loving than other gods of other religions and world-views. It is due to God being Triune.

Third, the Trinity accounts for the Deity of Jesus.

510

[Churchwork]

Shawn,

If I could understand your position better that would help. Let's resolve this. It seems your main issue was 3 different wills.

But this is love, you need 3. You need a lover, the beloved and the spirit of love between them each with their own distinct wills, but not separate. Otherwise God doesn't experience love before creation.

Whereas the Koran God can just love himself which seems selfish. You hear in new age or self-help books, people should just love themselves.

You said Jesus is God in the flesh. But do you agree Jesus is not the Father and the Father is not the Son and the Spirit is not the Father, but all 3 are uncreated as One Being?

Saying you are a father, son and husband is just 3 different modes called modalism

Do you accept or reject modalism?

[Churchwork]

Shawn had a burning bosom when he thought he was born-again in 1997 like Mormons have a burning bosom. Mormons had a burning bosom for a false Christ. Shawn had a burning bosom for a non-Trinitarian God. Are they both saved because they both had a burning bosom? When I was born-again I had a burning bosom for Jesus" who sums up all things." Afterwards as I learned about the Trinity I accepted this is the God I believed in. But Mormons and McCraney both reject the Triune God. All we have then is evidence. Amazing undeniable evidence in the links above.

Jesus is uncreated, the Father is uncreated, the Spirit is uncreated, yet there can only be One Being before time and space. The 3 Persons (no Father, Son, Spirit relationship) before time and space. They agreed before time and space we would pray to the Father, the Son would do the perfect will of the Father and atone for sins, and the Spirit would indwelling those born-again.

If I am right about this, and I am very sure that I am, Shawn was never born-again in 1997. He could accept the Trinity tomorrow and receive new life for receiving the Triune God. But if he doesn't give his life to the Triune God before he dies, I do not believe he will change his mind at the GWT. He will argue against Jesus for eternity in Hell. I truly believe this.

[Churchwork]

Trinity as described in the Athanasian Creed:

“That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.” (from Creeds of Christendom, with a History and Critical notes. Volume II. The History of Creeds.. Harper & Brothers. 1877. pp. 66–71.)

[Churchwork]

The Way of the Lord (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Christianity.htm)


"Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient [even] unto death, yea, the death of the cross. Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name; that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven and [things] on earth and [things] under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil. 2.5-11).

“As regards to the Godhead, the Son and the Father are co-equal; but His being the Lord is rewarded Him by God. The Lord Jesus Christ was made Lord only after He emptied Himself. His deity derives from who He is, for His being God is His inherent nature. His being Lord, though, issues out of what He has done. He was exalted and rewarded by God to be the Lord only after He forsook His glory and maintained the perfect role of obedience. As regards Himself, He is God; as regards reward, He is Lord. His Lordship did not exist originally in the Godhead.

The passage in Philippians 2 is most difficult to explain, for it is most controversial besides being most holy. Let's remove our shoes and stand on holy ground as we review the Scripture. It seems as though at the beginning a council was held within the Godhead. God conceived a plan to create the universe. In that plan the Godhead agreed to have authority represented by the Father. But authority cannot exist alone. God must therefore find obedience in the universe. Two living beings were to be created: angels (spirits) and men (living souls). According to His foreknowledge God foresaw the rebellion of the angels and the fall of men; hence He was unable to establish His authority in angels or in the Adamic race. Consequently, within the Godhead perfect accord was reached that authority would be reached by the obedience of the Son. From this come the distinctive operations of God the Father and God the Son. One day God the Son emptied himself, and being born in the likeness of men. He became the symbol of obedience. Inasmuch as rebellion came from the created beings, so obedience must now be established in the created being. Man sinned and rebelled; therefore the authority of God must be erected on man’s obedience. This explains why the Lord came to the world and was made as one of the created men”. (Spiritual Authority (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Authority.htm), CFP white cover, 47-48, Watchman Nee)

"Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus" (v.5). "Who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men" (vv.6,7). The prerogatives of Christ—that which is legally and rightfully His—is His being in the form of God and being equal with God. Yet He "emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men." What, then, you ask, is the mind of Christ? It is to do what He did: to forfeit one’s rightful privileges. Perhaps you are concerned about how you should be treated by other people. But Christ does not hold on to what is rightfully His. He took the attitude of mind that His being on an equality with God was not something to be grasped after, but instead He emptied himself and took the form of a bondslave. Such is the mind of Christ.

Jesus said, "I and the Father are one" (John 10.30); on the other hand He also said this: "the Father is greater than I" (John 14.28). Is there any inherent gradation of power and authority between and among the members in the Godhead? Certainly not. And hence the consideration of greater or smaller here cannot have reference to that which one is born with; rather, it is something that is willed or desired or submitted to gladly. The Father sends the Son, and the Son sends the Spirit. And such a submissive arrangement is according to the sublime humility to be found in the Godhead.

"The form of a servant" are words which speak of the lowliness of our Lord; "the likeness of men" is a phrase which signifies the human restriction our Lord takes upon himself. The form of a servant is presented in contrast to the form of God, while man is presented in contrast to God. God is not restricted by time and space, by food and rest. The form of God is glorious, whereas the form of a servant is lowly. The mind of Christ is therefore expressed in His willingness to humble himself and to suffer restriction.

"And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross" (v.8). The obedience of Christ is profoundly demonstrated in His obeying His equal, not in His obeying His superior. His obedience is from the heart and goes all the way to the death of the cross. (From Glory to Glory, CFP white cover, 140,141,42, Watchman Nee)

Herein do we see resurrection life. Without the supernatural life of God there can be no resurrection after death. The Lord Jesus could go through death and yet be raised because resident in Him is God’s uncreated life. This life cannot be destroyed: it instead will always emerge into the fullness and glory of resurrection. Jesus poured out His soul to death and committed His spirit (in which was God’s life) back into the hands of God. His death set Him free from soul life and released God’s spiritual life unto greater splendor.

It is difficult indeed to understand why God, upon transmitting His life to us, then requires us to experience co-death with Christ so that His life may be resurrected in us. This is nonetheless God’s law of life. And once possessing God’s life, we then are empowered to periodically go through death and continue to come out alive. By continuously losing our soul life in death, we may continuously gain more abundantly and gloriously of God’s life in resurrection.

God’s aim is to take our soul life through death in company with His Own life in us; whenever His life in us is resurrected in our daily experience our soul also is raised with Him and produces fruit to eternity. This is one of the most profound lessons in spiritual life. The Holy Spirit alone can unfold to us the necessity of death as well as that of resurrection. May the Spirit of revelation make us understand how much our spiritual experience shall suffer if we do not hate our natural life and deliver it to death. Only when our soul accompanied by God’s indwelling life passes through death and resurrection can we bear spiritual fruit and keep it for life eternal. (The Spiritual Man (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/SMCFP.htm), CFP white cover, Vol. 1, Part 3, 192)

"By passing through death it affords God an opportunity to communicate His life to us. Not to lose that soul life in death shall mean great loss for the believer; but in losing it he will save it for eternity." (TSM, Vol. 1, 190).



The Obedience of the Son

Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross. Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name; that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phil. 2.5-11)

Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear, though he was a Son, yet learned obedience by the things which he suffered; and having been made perfect, he became unto all them that obey him the author of eternal salvation. (Heb. 5.7-9)


The Lord Initiates Obedience

The Bible tells us that the Lord Jesus and the Father are one. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God. The heaven and the earth were made through the Word. The glory which God had in the beginning, even the unapproachable glory of God, was also the Son’s glory. The Father and the Son exist equally and are equal in power and possession. Only in Person is there a difference between Father and Son. This is not an essential difference; it is merely an arrangement within the Godhead. Therefore the Scripture says that the Lord "counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped"—that is, a thing to be seized. His equality with God is neither something seized upon nor acquired, for inherently He is the image of God.

Philippians 2.5-7 forms one section and verses 8-11, another. In these two sections our Lord is seen as having humbled Himself twice: first He emptied Himself in His divinity, and then He humbled Himself in His humanity. By the time He came to this world, the Lord had so emptied Himself of the glory, power, status, and form of His divinity that no one then living, other than by revelation, knew Him nor acknowledged Him as God. They treated Him as a man, as an ordinary person of this world. As the Son He willingly submits to the Father’s authority and declares that "the Father is greater than I" (John 14.28). Thus there is perfect harmony in the Godhead. Gladly the Father takes the place of the Head, and the Son responds with obedience. God becomes the emblem of authority, while Christ assumes the symbol of obedience.

For we men to be obedient it should be simple, because all we need is but a little humility. For Christ to be obedient, however, is not so simple a matter. It is much harder for Him to be obedient than for Him to create the heavens and the earth. Why? Because He has to empty Himself of all the glory and power of His divinity and take the form of a slave before He is even qualified to obey. Hence obedience is initiated by the Son of God.

The Son originally shared the same glory and authority with the Father. But when He came to the world He on the one hand forsook authority and on the other hand took up obedience. He willingly took the place of a slave, accepting the human limitation of time and space. He humbled Himself further and became obedient unto death. Obedience within the Godhead is the most wonderful sight in the whole universe. Since Christ was obedient unto death—suffering a most painful and shameful death on the cross—God has highly exalted Him. God exalts whoever humbles himself. This is a divine principle.



To Be Filled with Christ Is to Be Filled with Obedience


Since the Lord has initiated obedience, the Father has become the Head of Christ. Now because both authority and obedience have been instituted by God, it is natural for those who know God and Christ to obey. But those who know not God and Christ know neither authority nor obedience. Christ is the principle of obedience. He who accepts Christ accepts the principle of obedience. Hence a person who is filled with Christ must be one who is also filled with obedience.

Nowadays people often ask, "Why should I obey? Since both you and I are brothers, why must I obey you?" But men are not qualified to ask in this manner. The Lord alone is qualified; yet He has never said such words nor has such a thought ever entered His mind. Christ represents obedience, which is as perfect as the authority of God is perfect. May God be merciful to those who claim they know authority when obedience is yet missing in their lives.



The Way of the Lord


As regards the Godhead, the Son and the Father are co-equal; but His being the Lord is rewarded Him by God. The Lord Jesus Christ was made Lord only after He emptied Himself. His deity derives from who He is, for His being God is His inherent nature. His being Lord, though, issues out of what He has done. He was exalted and rewarded by God to be Lord only after He forsook His glory and maintained the perfect role of obedience. As regards Himself, He is God; as regards reward, He is Lord. His Lordship did not exist originally in the Godhead.

The passage in Philippians 2 is most difficult to explain, for it is most controversial besides being most holy. Let us remove our shoes and stand on holy ground as we review this Scripture. It seems as though at the beginning a council was held within the Godhead. God conceived a plan to create the universe. In that plan the Godhead agreed to have authority represented by the Father. But authority cannot be established in the universe without obedience, since it cannot exist alone. God must therefore find obedience in the universe. Two living beings were to be created: angels (spirits) and men (living souls). According to His foreknowledge God foresaw the rebellion of the angels and the fall of men; hence He was unable to establish His authority in angels or in the Adamic race. Consequently, within the Godhead perfect accord was reached that authority would be answered by obedience in the Son. From this come the distinctive operations of God the Father and God the Son. One day God the Son emptied Himself, and being born in the likeness of men He became the symbol of obedience. Inasmuch as rebellion came from the created beings, so obedience must now be established in a created being. Man sinned and rebelled; therefore the authority of God must be erected on man’s obedience. This explains why the Lord came to the world and was made as one of the created men.

The birth of our Lord is actually God coming forth. Instead of remaining as God with authority He came to man’s side, accepting all the limitations of man and taking the form of a slave. He braved the possible peril of not being able to return with glory. Should He have become disobedient on earth as a man, He would have still been able to reclaim His place in the Godhead by asserting His original authority; but if so, He would have forever broken down the principle of obedience.

There were two ways for the Lord to return: one way was to obey absolutely and unreservedly as man, establishing the authority of God in all things on all occasions without the slightest hint of rebellion; thus, step by step through obedience to God, He would be made Lord over all. The other way would be to force His way back by reclaiming and using the authority and power and glory of His deity because of having found obedience impossible through the weakness and limitation of human flesh.

Now the Lord discarded this second path and walked humbly in the way of obedience—even unto death. Once having emptied Himself, He refused to fill Himself again. He never took such an ambiguous course. Had the Lord failed in the way of obedience after having relinquished His divine glory and authority and taken the form of a slave, He would have never again returned with glory. Only by the way of obedience as man did He go back. Thus it was that He returned on the basis of perfect and singular obedience. Though suffering was added upon suffering, He displayed absolute obedience, without ever the slightest tinge of resistance or rebellion.

Consequently, God highly exalted Him and made Him Lord when He returned to glory. It was not He who filled Himself up with that which He had once emptied Himself of; rather, it was God the Father. It was the Father who was the One who brought this Man back into glory. And so God the Son is now also become Jesus the Man in His return to glory. For this reason, the name of Jesus is most precious; there is no one in the universe like Him. When on the cross He shouted "It is finished!", it proclaimed not only the accomplishment of salvation but also the fulfillment of all that His name signifies. Therefore, He has obtained a name which is above every name, and at His name every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord. Henceforward, He is Lord as well as God. His being Lord speaks of His relationship with God, how He has been rewarded by God. His being Christ reveals His relationship with the church.

To summarize, then: when the Son left the glory He did not intend to return on the basis of His divine attributes; on the contrary, He desired to be exalted as a man. In this manner, God has affirmed His principle of obedience. How necessary it is that we be wholly obedient without even the faintest trace of rebellion. The Son returned to heaven as a man; He was exalted by God after He was obedient in the likeness of men. Let us face this great mystery of the Bible. In bidding farewell to the glory and clothing Himself with human flesh, the Lord determined not to return by virtue of His divine attributes. And because He never gave the slightest appearance of disobedience, He was exalted by God on the ground of His humanity. The Lord set aside His glory when He came; but when He returned, He not only regained that glory but received even further glory.

Let us too have this mind which was in Christ Jesus. Let us all walk in the way of the Lord and attain to obedience by making this principle of obedience our own principle. Let us be subject to one another. Once having seen this principle, we will have no trouble discerning that no sin is more serious than rebellion and nothing is more important than obedience. Only in the principle of obedience can we serve God; only in obeying as Christ did can we reaffirm God’s principle of authority, for rebellion is the outworking of the principle of Satan.
Learning Obedience through Suffering

It is told in Hebrews 5.8 that Christ "learned obedience through what He suffered." Suffering called forth obedience from the Lord. Please note here that He did not bring obedience to this earth; He learned it—and He did so through suffering.

When we meet suffering we then learn obedience. Such obedience is real. Our usefulness is not determined by whether or not we have suffered, but by how much obedience we have learned through that suffering. The obedient ones alone are useful to God. As long as our heart is not softened, suffering will not leave us. Our way lies in many sufferings; the easy-goers and pleasure-lovers are useless before God. Let us therefore learn to obey in suffering.

Salvation makes people obedient as well as joyous. If we seek only joy, our spiritual possessions will not be rich; but those who are obedient will experience the abundance of salvation. Let us not change the nature of salvation. Let us obey—for our Lord Jesus, having been made perfect through obedience, has become the source of our eternal salvation. God saves us that we may obey His will. If we have met God’s authority we shall discover obedience to be easy and God’s will to be simple, because the Lord Himself was always obedient and has given this life of obedience to us.
(Spiritual Authority, CFP white cover, Watchman Nee.)

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/thewayofthelord.htm

[Churchwork]

what you wrote is untrue. I had no such experience and never said I did.
You are bearing a false witness.
When you watch our video discussion you said, "I was born again and my life changed, I knew I was saved because of the blood of Jesus." That's all I meant. So that's not bearing false witness. The "change" occurred in your perception. Being born-again is not without any sensation at all.

I wish you would read what I wrote, because what is written convinces me in the Trinity, but I don't see you putting out anything to support your view. Perhaps that's all the difference in searching God out with all our heart and soul, I read these pages and links, you didn't. I searched that out. You did not.

The Bible says if you search God out with all your heart and soul, you will surely find Him. Don't be coy. Your response was so short nobody really knows what you are referring to which is not transparent for the Lord. Let us both not be petty for that is of the natural self we need to be delivered from. It's amazing how petty we could get. I could say something like, since you had no experience believing Jesus is God then you didn't really believe Jesus is God for there is no depth to your belief just mental, or I could say then it was just irresistibly imposed on you, so you are a Calvinist, and Calvinists are not saved. But you did have an experience, that experience being, something in you changed so that you believed Jesus is God. You are not dull wood. God has given you the experience to believe Jesus is God, but not the experience to accept the Triune God. This is where you separate yourself form God of the Bible.

You are not completely without experience, being changed, sensing feeling, having some bosom effects, and new beliefs, etc. I could then say you are sinning bearing false witness mischaracterizing what I said. Understand the spirit of what is being said otherwise you are sinning bearing false witness.

[Churchwork]

My friend, you are approaching me with your certainty and as a means to
teach.
Thank you, but no. No interest in your views I have heard them from men
who are in all probability much wiser in the Word and smarter than
yourself. I HAVE expressed my views clearly in the past. Another error
in your confrontation. It's all online. Now, God speed.
Shawn,

If intelligence was the predominant factor for salvation then only smart people would be saved. Fortunately, God is no respecter of persons. Thanks for the compliment that you heard arguments that I have given from people smarter than me. I must be giving you the best arguments then. It is not about smarts, but it has to do with your conscience in your spirit which remains dead to God that's why God doesn't grace you with the essential truth. You are the one who is putting up the wall. He's hardening your heart. God is choosing a people for Himself, and I don't believe you are one of His (assuming you remain as you are). Whereas other ex-Mormons gave their lives to the Triune God.

Yes, I am confident for the Holy Spirit told me the truth which I cannot deny. Every time someone who is confident in their view, you shut off the line of communication and go into your corner and pout. That seems to me to be a lame excuse to not address an issue in a conversation. The Spirit of Truth shows you remain coy about what you believe and hostile to the Triune God, because the position you take in your other videos is no different than what you said yesterday. You have no new material, you're just repeating yourself. Christianity is unique in the Trinity. Let me draw an example. You're like William Lane Craig because he never talks about the fact that he believes he could lose salvation tomorrow. So that is how I know he is not born-again. Coy people are easy to expose because you can see their self-defense mechanism kick in by turtling. They lock up like you do.

The first error you accused of was not an error as I showed. You just repeated yourself instead of addressing what I said in response. This is disingenuous and insincere. I am not fond of people who are like that. Your main issue is you don't want to follow God who has 3 wills in His 3 Persons of traditional Christianity so it seems selfishly you go on your own tangent and you were never a Christian. Perhaps your ratings go up if you take this position; any position that is hostile to the Triune God. We see the operation of the 3 wills of God in Scripture (modalism is a heresy). I haven't seen anything other than the hostile position you take. Your other videos seem to say the same thing of which I have seen several. If you presented some other argument that I am not aware of you could show it but you don't. Seems coy. Coy people are hiding their true hearts. I think your true heart is not renewed. You don't really have a view except your hostility to the Trinity. Hostility to the Trinity can't help but debase Jesus Christ the 2nd Person, because in your view He is not beloved by the first Person in the trinity of love before time and space, but he is just the Father modalistically which presents a god that lied to us if what you believed is true.

Rejecting the Trinity to me is not being clear, because it is a contradiction. The 3 Persons of the Godhead are uncreated, yet we see each of their wills in creation. Love is according to our will to love someone or not to love someone. Each Person in the Godhead loves the other, so we have a lover, the beloved, and the spirit of love between them. We need 3 Persons to complete true love -- the love of God. Hence, we have unity of the Trinity and Trinity in unity. The Spirit is the life of the Father and the Son.

Do you really want a God you think you can explain and leaving nothing for the transcendent God you can't quite fully fathom? I prefer the latter so I have no problem with God's 3 Persons and His 3 wills. As it is on earth so it is in heaven.

The way you conduct yourself is telling. Coy. We shall know you by your fruits. I know with 100% certainty as I pray on this that you are not a Christian, and statistically speaking, you have less than 1% chance of giving your life to Christ. I don't think you will ever repent of your modalism so you are going to Hell. I would take that bet any day.

God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit are not mere attributes of God but His very Persons. The word "Persons" is transcendent; so don't use it exactly like the human term "persons."

Perhaps the purpose of my posts is no longer to lead you to Christ, but to protect others so they would not be deceived by you.

Praise the Lord for this discernment. Amen!

[Churchwork]

Shawn has lots of doctrinal problems:

http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?6164-Why-Matt-J-Slick-and-Shawn-McCraney-are-not-Christians
http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?4256-Jumping-from-one-False-Faith-to-the-Next-from-Morminism-to-Calvinism
http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?3611-Shawn-McCraney-an-ex-Mormon-is-now-Calvinist-non-OSAS-anti-Apostle

[Churchwork]

If everytime a man goes to pet a pit bull the pit bites him, that man
would wisely learn to stop trying to pet pit bulls. You offer me nothing
but the opportunity to get bit. Again.
Christians get bit. That's our nature because we stand up for the truth without worry of consequences, so your attempt to draw fear that we will get bit is not going to work.

Evidentially you don't have a leg to stand on and you don't overturn the evidence I give. Evidentially, therefore, Christians are on good foundation and the sand under your feet is getting more difficult to navigate. All lies eventually break down and do harm to you and others.

Who knows, you might get a cult following of rejecting the Trinity. Perhaps you have picked up on this already to draw in more dollars. Heck, a little controversy sells books. So many cults though before you have gone that way. I have one great example.

Watchman Nee was one of the most amazing Christians in Church history. He was a Trinitarian. But it wasn't long after his death a guy by the name of Witness Lee changed everything and was a modalist. How he switched one from the other the connection is not clear, but suffice it to say, as quickly as we have wonderful spiritual Christian in our midst, Satan is not that far behind to mess things up again. You are that Witness Lee to Mormons who escape Mormonism.

While you are no Watchman Nee, you are certainly a Witness Lee. Probably your version of modalism of which there are many you think is the one to beat all versions of modalism. Only someone of your prowess could fathom this new take on modalism. I think you are getting the point, you are severely lacking humility.

[Churchwork]

How about I believe in God, even the Father, and in His Son, the Lord
Jesus Christ,
by the Holy Spirit. Will that work?
Sounds good to me. All 3 are uncreated together One Being.

God experiences love in the Trinity.

Lover loves the Beloved and between them is the Spirit of love.

Community of Unity and Unity of Community.

In the Bible the 3 Persons are never confused so if we are humble we accept before time and space they remain distinct. We have no grounds to put them together, just like we have no grounds to confuse our spirit with our soul with our body. We are a trinity too.

Looking forward to your show to express what your alternative to the Trinity is.


You can't be saved and reject the Trinity at the same time. It's a different God that has fellowship in His 3 Persons (before time and space) which by the way is supernaturally impossible to understand fully which is a good thing because you don't want to believe in a God you have fully figured out. I like being humble. I pray you join the Triune God team, then you will skyrocket further in your work.

What do you say to someone who believed in the Trinity and no longer does. I am sure there are some people like that out there. All you can say is they never truly believed in the first place so they were never born-again.

I am still profoundly affected by the implication that you would not be born-again in 1997 if you didn't accept the Trinity then.

Is there anyone on the planet who has been in a similar situation like you yet they take another turn than the one you have by confessing they were not born-again coming out of Mormonism when they thought they were saved because after all these years they finally admit they were not Christians back then, for now they accept the Triune God and can clearly say they are saved and on the Triune God team of traditional Christianity.

So much was invested for so many years in thinking you were saved when you were not that's why it is seemingly impossible to take the position of this hypothetical person I just described.

I think I am clear because I don't have any such similar problems.

[Churchwork]

Take just a minute, take a deep breath, exhale slowly. Relax. Jesus has
had the victory. All these fretting and questions of who is saved and who
is not, all of these insights and opinions, and views are just side issues
men have made so important...and they're not. The gospel has nothing to
do with trinitarianism. When you let go and live through Him you will
discover His liberty... which is invaluable in this world.
I have all this and more. Just realize there are some Christians willing to reach out to you. People would not reach out to you to help you if we didn't care. By rejecting the Trinity you reject some aspect of the uncreated Creator in the Father, Son and Spirit as 3 Persons before creation. You can be coy about it, but the problem remains, rejecting very God of very God. The Father has a will, Jesus has a will, and the Spirit has a will in Scripture. Since you say they don't, not only does Scripture not make any sense in your view, but you are rejecting who God is.

You don't resolve this problem you have, nor do you repent of it showing you will likely never change. This is why Christians don't consider you a Christ because you worship a false Christ. For Jesus to have the same will as the Father is called modalism. It's a heresy. That's why this commentary is placed under "Modalism" at biblocality.com/forums

Hope that helps though I doubt little will because you are not born-again. You are worshiping by the power of your flesh. We are not brothers in Christ, because you have never been born-again. Just calling a spade a spade.

The Trinity is essential doctrine.

Maybe we should call you a pantheist (I know that is not the original definition of pantheism), hope it all works out even though you reject the Triune God. Another person rejects God is Triune and believes He is a Quaternity. Another says Binitarian, another says Modalism. All these gods, so much confusion. Where does it end? But you say it doesn't matter their character and nature before the cross. If anyone should be concerned about all these different gods it should be you coming out of Mormonism, but yet you embrace them all. You should be hypersensitive to so many gods. In Mormonism, I have seen some teach that God is gods. They literally use the term "God" as an overarching term for gods.

Where does it end in this multiplicity of gods that can all save?