My clinical death experience contradicts soul sleep! I talk to dead people [Archive]

View Full Version : My clinical death experience contradicts soul sleep! I talk to dead people

Alan McDougall

09-30-2012, 01:45 PM

AlanMcDougall died numerous times due to heart block/and came back

On the 18th August 2011 I died numerous times on the resuscitation table due tothird stage heart block. I went through the whole drama of my heart stopping,flat lining over and over again, adrenaline, atropine were injected directlyinto my heart and the shock paddles and chest depressions, used over and overagain in a desperate effort to get my heart to beat again on its own.

If I had any doubts about life after death I have none now, each time my heartstopped my soul or consciousness left my body and went into other dimensions ofexistence. At first

I only remembered a little of what went on in those three hours of life anddeath struggle but lately have begun to remember more and more about thestrange otherworldly realms I saw over the period of three hours. Each timethey got my heart to beat I came back.

I saw numerous people all gathered to welcome me into the afterlife, all mybeloved were there. It seemed like a welcome home party but as soon as thedoctors got my heart to beat I was drawn back to the earthly world.

Another time I saw a tree with a lot of books situated around it. Reading whatwas on the covers I saw that they contained all the knowledge and mysteries ofexistence.

One very large book seem to consolidate what was in all the smaller books butwhen I tried to lift it was too heavy to carry and I decided to return laterfor it

II saw a beautiful pulsating orb of golden light that I took for the Lord Jesusas it emanated perfect peace and love. I had no tunnel and meeting of a being oflight I think because I was continually being resuscitated by the medical team

After three hours the doctors installed a temporary pacemaker to maintain mypulse between 65/110 beats per/minute instead of the 5 to zero it had beenbeating/not beating most of the time on the resuscitation table. I was told bythe doctor that I had been “really really dead”

The doctor said if I had arrived hospital even five minutes later it would havebeen impossible to revive me. I am 71 years of age now and would not haveminded if I had died then , but I suppose there must be some things left for meto do, because a whole lot of favourable coincidences made it possible for meto survive

I had taken nap on that Thursday night and a dear friend of mine phoned late atnight, a thing he had never done before, I woke up with heart going crazyalmost stopping, my wife immediately called the for the ambulance and they gotto my home in seven minute flat, the hospital is less than a half kilometrefrom my home and I was there in five minutes and went I got attentionimmediately.

Note if my friend did not phone me at the exact moment he did, I would neverhave woken up and died in my sleep

I now have a permanent pacemaker in my chest which should last ten years anddespite the great shock I am felling very alive and well

Note; the medical term for what happened to me is Complete AV heart block

Love

Alan McDougall

Churchwork

09-30-2012, 06:32 PM

Alan McDougall

09-30-2012, 08:08 PM

There is no evidence to show what you experienced was anything more than a dream. Whereas other studies show verifiable data that the person could see what was happening on the operating table and events outside the hospital pointing out things he could not have known otherwise, but this is in transition to soul sleep. When people have visions of 3rd heaven they are witnessing future events because nobody is resurrected yet according to 1 Thess. 4.14-18.

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words" (1 Thess. 4.14-18).

Not even David a man after God's own heart is in heaven yet. "For David is not ascended into the heavens" (Acts 2.34).
You speak as if you are an expert, which you are not! Take the case of Paul when he was taken into the third heaven. The Jews had stoned him and this stoning always led to the death of the victim. Thus he was taken to the third heaven, where he saw unspeakable things or unexplainable things, he came back like I did , God has not stopped doing miracles in this day and age. King David was a sinner , just like me, so he had to wait in the underworld after he died , and wait there for Jesus to preached to the righteous dead. These people in hell were not in a state of soul sleep, they were conscious and in a place of waiting for the Lord to come to them, that is an indisputable fact. There was also much more to my experience and I did see things that were going on around me, such as observing the monitor flat-lining and going beeeeep even though my brain was completely cut off and incapable of reacting to anything , because my heart had stopped completely and a brain without a blood supply is dead to the outside world.

Have you reached the stage of clinically death like I did that night, if not please don’t take the view that you are some sort of an expert in the topic? Are you absolutely 100% sure you are right about how you interpret every word in the Bible,I can only realate what I experience and it was not a dream, I had a much more profound near death experience in 1994 when I became very ill.

Like wise I was not dreaming I know the difference between a dream and what I experienced that night ,
Dreams are like wise mostly symbolic or nonsensical in content.

Before much was known about the phenomenon of the NDE, they were simply dismissed by doctors and others as hallucinations, dreams or a by-product of the increasingly dysfunctional brain during its dying process.

Unlike the mostly vivid and beautiful (http://afterlife-knowledge.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=1339917722##), peaceful, lucid, ordered and logical clinically death experience I had, hallucinations are varied, bizarre, and extremely idiosyncratic and peculiar and upsetting in content. Hallucinations take place while the person is awake, while most NDE take place when the person is clinically dead

Virtually all NDEs display a logical progression of identifiable stages and take place most of the time (http://afterlife-knowledge.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=1339917722##) when the person was clinically dead as was in my case last August 2011

Those who have experienced both NDE and hallucinations or dreams say that they are profoundly different, the first is usually peaceful and beautiful, the others sometimes very bizarre and disturbing in the extreme.

It really saddens me when I see all this doctrinal fighting between Christians, each one absolutely sure they are right and anyone that thinks differently from them is wrong or lying. This sort of intolerance is the reason why false cults such as Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons are filling the cap, because all this bickering on tiny differences has fragmented the Church of Jesus Christ and Satan comes in and deceives countless disillusioned former believers.

Churchwork

09-30-2012, 10:02 PM

You speak as if you are an expert, which you are not! Take the case of Paul when he was taken into the third heaven. The Jews had stoned him and this stoning always led to the death of the victim. Thus he was taken to the third heaven, where he saw unspeakable things or unexplainable things, he came back like I did , God has not stopped doing miracles in this day and age. King David was a sinner , just like me, so he had to wait in the underworld after he died , and wait there for Jesus to preached to the righteous dead. These people in hell were not in a state of soul sleep, they were conscious and in a place of waiting for the Lord to come to them, that is an indisputable fact. There was also much more to my experience and I did see things that were going on around me, such as observing the monitor flat-lining and going beeeeep even though my brain was completely cut off and incapable of reacting to anything , because my heart had stopped completely and a brain without a blood supply is dead to the outside world.One doesn't need to be an expert in the field but simply draw from experts and the word of God which shows there are no instances in Scripture of a person seeing loved ones in 3rd heaven presently. Therefore, such concoctions are that of the fleshly such as yourself. Nobody is saying God has stopped doing miracles, nor can we construe Paul's physical attacks as coming back from the dead. Your biggest hurdle is evidence which you have none.

The circumstances surrounding stoning of Paul was not for certain death. You would need to provide evidence for that. Nobody is in Hell. The first person to go to Hell with be the Antichrist at the start of the millennial kingdom. The second person will be the False Prophet. The 3rd being will be Satan at the end of the 1000 years. Nobody has ever gone to Hell yet. Hades is not Hell. Hades is that place of soul sleep. You can't throw Hell into Hell in Rev. 20. But you can throw Hades into Hell.

The Jews even call it Paradise below. Jesus preaching to people in the good side Hades was figurative by the fact He went down there upon His death at the cross, yet they were asleep. Your additional testimony is not supportive to your case because you need to see things that are out of the ordinary that you could not have suspected. You provide nothing.

Like wise I was not dreaming I know the difference between a dream and what I experienced that night ,
Dreams are like wise mostly symbolic or nonsensical in content.

You were dreaming as part of your near death experience. This is God-given, but it is still a dream. Whereas others we can be confident were back from the dead because they reported things they could not have known otherwise. Your stories about gigantic books, pulsating orbs and other silly stuff give it a Alice in Wonderland feel typical of dreams, not in keeping with the Scriptures. In Scripture there are no welcome parties.

I am only here to verify data that you could not have known otherwise. You present nothing. In fact, you admit your story expands in later years as you add more detail that was not originally present. That is very damaging to your testimony.

I don't believe you because of these reasons. If someone gave a 3rd heaven experience, but it was in keeping with Scriptures yet they could not verify anything, I would still accept their testimony. They could still have made it up, but at least I wouldn't condemn them for it. Whereas with you I judge your testimony as being false from 3rd heaven because it doesn't agree with God's word. I gave you the verses already. That must hurt your pride greatly.

Alan McDougall

10-01-2012, 05:49 AM

Your tone is unpleasant and mean , not loving but adamant that you ae Right and I am wrong. Have you ever been pronounced clinically dead? This smacks of someone who believes that Timbuktu is a myth, because you have never been there meant it does not exist. You almost called me a deluded liar I take serious umbrage to this!

I NEVER SAID I WENT TO ANY 3 HEAVEN READ MY POST AGAIN! Millions of loving born again Christians do not believe in soul sleep and can back it up with scripture, how do you know for certain they are wrong and you are right?.

You said the third heaven is about the future where the heck did you get this nonsense from , have you been there.?

READ WHAT IS WRITTEN BELOW.

http://graceambassadors.com/warnings/problems-with-soul-sleep

By Justin Johnson (I don't know him but agree completely with his comments)

The teaching of the mortality of the soul or “soul sleep” is not a novel teaching. Nor is it a new concept among those who recognize the mystery of Christ.

Though this doctrine is clearly unsupported by the Bible if taken in its literal English, it continues to be taught alongside the revelation of the mystery to the confusion of those searching the scriptures.

Below is a list of general problems that should be considered if you have been affected by the teachers of soul sleep.

Hopefully, we can become fully persuaded as to the truth as we consider all of scripture, in its context, and believing every word.

Problem Verses

There are multiple passages that show the dead are conscious after death.

Matthew 12:40 (Jonah 2) – Jonah spoke as one from hell who was dead. Matthew 17:2-3 (http://av1611.com/verseclick/gobible.php?p=Matthew_17.2-3) – Moses and Elias were talking with Jesus after their death.

Matthew 22:31-32
– Abraham was dead, but still living.

Luke 16:19-31
– Jesus tells the story of dead people speaking in hell. (Some wrongly think this is a parable. It is not. If soul sleep were true then the story is not only false, but the Lord is misleading his hearers as to what is real. This is significant evidence that the dead are not only conscious but can speak and feel.)

Luke 23:43
– Jesus says the malefactor will be in paradise with him “today”.

1 Thessalonians 5:10
– Whether they wake or sleep they live with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8
– Paul explains that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 12:2-4
– Paul describes someone (http://biblocality.com/forums/#) who heard things possibly out of his body.

Philippians 1:23
– Paul says that he would depart to be with Christ, not unconscious.

Revelation 6:9-11
– The soul is dead and is crying out to God.

Problem Definitions
Many of the concepts below are misunderstood, denied, or ignored by those who teach the unconscious dead.

Death does not mean unconsciousness, but rather separation. The only time (http://biblocality.com/forums/#) it means cessation of activity is when it applies to the body.

Body is not the soul; soul is not the body; spirit is not the soul.

Sleep never refers to the soul or spirit. It only applies to the body.

Man does not exist only in his body.

Problem Methods

To arrive at a belief in the unconscious state of the dead the wrong methods below must be used. Doctrines that rely on spiritualization and other languages do not provide a strong defense.

Spiritualization is used to deny the literal meaning of many passages. Luke 16 is the most abused in this way. Language games (http://biblocality.com/forums/#) are used to remove the English words (which do not provide evidence) and replace them with more ambiguous Greek and Hebrew.

Consequential Problems

There are serious practical consequences of the doctrine of the unconscious dead.

It removes the comfort from the verses which speak to those facing death.
The manipulated definitions used to support soul sleep have been used as a defense of annihilationism, no-hell, or universalism.
The methods used to teach it can establish a negative pattern for spiritualizing other significant doctrinal passages.
It engenders a doubtful approach to our Bible translations, perpetuating the idea that “the Greek word says” carries more weight than “the word of God says”.

Top of the Page (http://biblocality.com/forums/#top)
Article Index (http://biblocality.com/index?filter=posts) Published: October 30, 2010
Last Modified: October 30, 2010

Churchwork

10-01-2012, 01:48 PM

What is unpleasant and mean is deceit and lies even lies you believe to be true. False claims and trying to alter reality is ugly. Love does not do this. Humility does not accept lies. When you claim to have witnessed things in 3rd heaven you are claiming to have gone there as there is no where else these things can be that you claim you saw. But you were never there, because the aspects of your dream do not agree with the word of God of what 3rd heaven is like.

You claim millions of Christians can back up the claim of no soul sleep with Scripture, but your proclamation doesn't make it so. I gave you the verses to show soul sleep is true and therefore, your alleged 3rd heaven experience is false.

Matt. 12.40 does not say Hell. "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

Matt. 17.2-3 is speaking of a future event of the millennial kingdom with Jesus, Moses and Elijah present. They are not resurrected yet, because nobody is according to 1 Thess. 4.14-18.

Matt. 22.31-32 is referencing Abraham living who most certainly will be living when he is resurrected.

Luke 16.19-31 says nothing of Hell. It is speaking of hades, the place of the dead. Nobody is in Hell yet. Antichrist will be the first to go to Hell. This is figurative language of those in soul sleep. Jesus is allowed to speak this way so that we may understand.

Luke 23.43 Paradise below is soul sleep, Abraham's bosom.

1 Thess. 5.10 Certainly they will be with the Lord when they are resurrected, that is, awaken. The time between soul sleep and resurrection can be thousands of years or just a day. It depends when a person came into this world and went to sleep.

2 Cor. 5.6-8 To be absent from the body is to be with the Lord, but the time is not stipulated from when that will be when resurrection takes place at the end of this age.

2 Cor. 12.2-4 Paul was in 3rd heaven in spirit able to see things, but he was not actually there physically. This was the same John experienced when he was taken up in spirit to 3rd heaven to witness the things he saw to write the book of Revelation.

Phil. 1.23 does not preclude a time of being unconscious before resurrection.

Rev. 6.9-11 because they are raptured to 3rd heaven (not yet but at the first rapture) they cry out to the Lord and the Lord says to them wait a little longer till the rest of their brethren come in during the Tribulation. The 7 year Tribulation hasn't started yet. Remember, rapture and resurrection takes place at the end of this age. Nobody has been raptured to 3rd heaven yet. Nobody has been given a new body yet, not even Enoch and Elijah who were raptured, for they return as the Two Witnesses yet to die. 3.5 days after they go to rest they will be given new bodies when they are resurrected.

Death has several meanings in Scripture. One is separation. Another is soul sleep.

Man is tripartite: spirit, soul, body (Heb. 4.12). You can't come before the high priest naked which is what you are proposing. We are living souls with a body and a spirit. Without any one of these components we would be in soul sleep.

Sleep refers to our spirit without a body. Hence the need for resurrection. Our spirit at rest like a computer turned off saves all the information; when contact is made with a new body, man's living soul is reactivated like turning the computer back on.

Man exists in spirit, soul and body, not body only, not spirit only, not soul only, nor spirit and soul only. Angels are spirits. Man is a living soul.

Rejecting soul sleep is spiritualizing, for these spiritualizers claim people are in heaven without bodies and there are in spirit communications with them when in reality they are evil spirits and demons masquerading as loved ones.

There are significant problems of rejecting those in soul sleep. 1 Thess. 4.18 says "wherefore comfort one another with these words." Comfort yourselves with the fact we whom are saved will be resurrected together. There is not some party going on it heaven and a bunch of people waiting at the gates as we keep dying and immediately go there. No such instance in Scripture is given so why enter into the cult mentality that such exists now? Are you Christian? Why alter God's word?

Soul sleep does not support annihilationism, but opposes it, since those in soul sleep are all to be resurrected whether from the good side of Hades (Paradise below) or the bad side 1000 years after the elect. Soul sleep doesn't support no-Hell, but distinguishes the place of soul sleep not being Hell. Soul sleep doesn't support universalism, for obviously those in the bad side of Hades go to Hell and those in the good side go to be with Jesus in the New City.

As we have seen the dangers of denying soul sleep are false communications and false dreams and false outer body experiences with evil spirits passing off as loved ones. Great deception abounds.

The word of God says nobody is in heaven yet, but these spiritualizers say they are. Since they can find not one passage to support their claim, I pray that you will reject their stance in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Dozens of verses support soul sleep. Please study them carefully,
http://biblocality.com/forums/entry.php?12-Your-Soul-and-Spirit-Sleep-and-Wait-for-Resurrection
http://biblocality.com/forums/content.php?128-Soul-Sleep-is-True-Timeless-Unawares-the-Place-of-Rest

I responded to all your attempts but notice how avoid all the verses I gave. Please. This is not a one way conversation. Participate and respond to what shows nobody is in heaven yet and nobody has been resurrected yet from soul sleep.

Faithful

10-01-2012, 01:59 PM

Consider this fact. Gen. 1.1 says God created perfectly. It doesn't say how long it took. We know it to be 13.7 billion years.

Gen. 1.2 says God made desolate and waste (about 65 million years ago) due to the sin of the inhabitants of earth's earlier ages (200 million to 65 million years ago). There were about 65 million years from the desolation to the restoration and Adam and Eve.

Similarly there is a time to be with the Lord after being in soul sleep, but for each person that time is different because we are all born at different times and die at different times. But the person in soul sleep when he wakes will not notice any time has passed because he was unconscious the whole time. 1 Thess. 4.18 is very important to comfort each other with these words that we will be resurrected together, thus, nobody has gone to 3rd heaven yet nor Hell either. When the books are opened the determination is enacted for those who go to Hell.

Nobody immediately goes to heaven or hell upon death. There is the interim period of soul sleep either in Abraham's bosom (Paradise below, good side of Hades) or where the Rich Man went (bad side of Hades).

The Scriptures have proven this fact. Read the many verses supplied here,
http://biblocality.com/forums/entry.php?12-Your-Soul-and-Spirit-Sleep-and-Wait-for-Resurrection
http://biblocality.com/forums/content.php?128-Soul-Sleep-is-True-Timeless-Unawares-the-Place-of-Rest

Alan McDougall

10-13-2012, 05:22 PM

One doesn't need to be an expert in the field but simply draw from experts and the word of God which shows there are no instances in Scripture of a person seeing loved ones in 3rd heaven presently. Therefore, such concoctions are that of the fleshly such as yourself. Nobody is saying God has stopped doing miracles, nor can we construe Paul's physical attacks as coming back from the dead. Your biggest hurdle is evidence which you have none.

The circumstances surrounding stoning of Paul was not for certain death. You would need to provide evidence for that. Nobody is in Hell. The first person to go to Hell with be the Antichrist at the start of the millennial kingdom. The second person will be the False Prophet. The 3rd being will be Satan at the end of the 1000 years. Nobody has ever gone to Hell yet. Hades is not Hell. Hades is that place of soul sleep. You can't throw Hell into Hell in Rev. 20. But you can throw Hades into Hell.

The Jews even call it Paradise below. Jesus preaching to people in the good side Hades was figurative by the fact He went down there upon His death at the cross, yet they were asleep. Your additional testimony is not supportive to your case because you need to see things that are out of the ordinary that you could not have suspected. You provide nothing.

You were dreaming as part of your near death experience. This is God-given, but it is still a dream. Whereas others we can be confident were back from the dead because they reported things they could not have known otherwise. Your stories about gigantic books, pulsating orbs and other silly stuff give it a Alice in Wonderland feel typical of dreams, not in keeping with the Scriptures. In Scripture there are no welcome parties.

I am only here to verify data that you could not have known otherwise. You present nothing. In fact, you admit your story expands in later years as you add more detail that was not originally present. That is very damaging to your testimony.

I don't believe you because of these reasons. If someone gave a 3rd heaven experience, but it was in keeping with Scriptures yet they could not verify anything, I would still accept their testimony. They could still have made it up, but at least I wouldn't condemn them for it. Whereas with you I judge your testimony as being false from 3rd heaven because it doesn't agree with God's word. I gave you the verses already. That must hurt your pride greatly.

I want to make something absolutely clear I NEVER SAID I WENT TO THE THIRD HEAVEN YET YOU PERSIST IN SAYING I DID. Please read my post again and then comment.
I don’t belong to any cult I am a born again Christian who belongs to no church order and know my faith and love for the Lord Jesus and his sacrifice on the cross of Calvary is sufficient for my salvation. I am saved by grace not works. The way you insist that the belief in soul sleep is so necessary that by my not believing it will lead to my damnation, "THIS MY FRIEND IS THE KIND OF DOGMA OF A CULT".
It is a waste of my time trying to dialogue with someone how thinks he knows the truth in the absolute and anyone who differs even minutely from him is wrong.
You are ! Dogmatic Intransigent Inflexible Unbending Adamant Obstinate

Go to link are these people all lying?

http://www.ndespace.org/video/video/show?id=2331817%3AVideo%3A126200&xgs=1&xg_source=msg_share_video

Churchwork

10-13-2012, 05:26 PM

I want to make something absolutely clear I NEVER SAID I WENT TO THE THIRD HEAVEN YET YOU PERSIST IN SAYING I DID. Please read my post again and then comment. I don’t belong to any cult I am a born again Christian who belongs to no church order and know my faith and love for the Lord Jesus and his sacrifice on the cross of Calvary is sufficient for my salvation. I am saved by grace not works. The way you insist that the belief in soul sleep is so necessary that by my not believing it will lead to my damnation, "THIS MY FRIEND IS THE KIND OF DOGMA OF A CULT". It is a waste of my time trying to dialogue with someone how thinks he knows the truth in the absolute and anyone who differs even minutely from him is wrong. You are ! Dogmatic Intransigent Inflexible Unbending Adamant Obstinate
Where do angels exist? 3rd heaven. Your claim seeing angels thus is 3rd heaven. Why be doubletongued? Please think clearly. Your sloppy thoughts are a reflection of your false faith on the subject. You are in a cult of people in heaven, naked before the high priest (without physical bodies), in your party spirt even though the Bible says nobody has been resurrected yet. Jesus was resurrected bodily. You worship another Jesus like the JW's teach was resurrected in spirit only. You are definitely confused!

You should belong to a church order if you are a Christian, for the Bible orders the church according to locality as proven here,
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/whichchurch.htm

Never do I say solely because you reject 1 Thess. 4.13-18 about the resurrection and thus, soul sleep, for it is possible for some Christians to be deceived. When you sin bearing false witness otherwise about me, it shows you are lashing out, because you are misrepresenting reality.

For the umpteenth time you don't address these verses in Scripture given about soul sleep. A cult or one who is dogmatic responds just as you have done shutting his mind down. I doubt you will ever repent of your false teaching even for eternity.

Remember, not all NDE's are from God. Some are from self, others from the supernatural evil and even possibly a mix. Don't just assume all NDE's are from God. That would be a grave mistake. Some of the best cases the world has ever seen are documented by Gary R. Habermas in which what was observed could not have been known to prove they are authentic.

For example, Dr. Eben Alexander is a fraud,
http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?4946-Dr-Eben-Alexander-is-Going-to-Hell-for-He-Still-Refuses-to-Give-His-Life-to-Christ&p=10139#post10139

This vision should agree with Scripture. His and yours do not! Coming out of an NDE to transmit false teaching is a big clue something is not right that evil spirits are hard at work in your heart.

Alan McDougall

10-13-2012, 05:59 PM

Show me exactly where I stated I saw ANGELS you are making up ideas to further your own agenda You go on to say I will never repent given an eternity, are you God. I repented long ago namely July 1975 was born again, Jesus became personal to me then and my life changed from that moment and I got baptized. You are making dangerous statements about a person you know absolutely nothing about, be careful with your rhetoric. I am only dogmatic about what I experienced, I saw what I saw and reported it. Did you go to the link? You also change what I really said in my testimony by chancing and adding and selective editing my testimony such stating wrongly that I said I saw a pulsating orb, what I actually stated "I saw a golden orb" or I went to the third heaven, when I never stated any such thing, this is not being truthful!

I am now almost 72 and one thing I know that if you live by absolute fundamental dogma you will have to reexamine your core beliefs before you die, just like the early Christians had to. Paul said "we only see as through a glass darkly" I know I do but you seem to think you have the whole thing rapped up and can understand even the deepest and most profound mysteries in the Bible. One day we will be able to see clearly. I will address those verses on soul sleep later as it is late at night in SA.

Churchwork

10-13-2012, 07:15 PM

Seeing darkly does not refer to silly visions. It refers to God's plan. This is why we are to open the 2nd half of the book in Revelation 10 to get a further understanding from Rev. 12.1 to 19.21 which expound on the major points of the Tribulation from Rev. 7.1 to 11.19.

In your post you said there were "numerous people all gathered to welcome me into the afterlife, all mybeloved were there," but nobody is in heaven yet, so these are fallen angels masquerading as loved ones or demons. It should be pointed out as well that most loved ones are not saved, for most people don't give their lives to Christ. Nowhere in Scripture do we find people in heaven yet, so your faith is not that of a Christian. I have never met anyone as old as you who ever gave their life to Christ so you will never repent. You want to be embraced by a party spirit in Hell. That's what the Holy Spirit is telling me about you. Jesus did not go down to Hell. He went down to Abraham's bosom, the good side of Hades where Lazarus is in soul sleep. Figurative language to be sure indicating the the spiritual stance that Lazarus was saved, but there is no party going on right now in Paradise below. How silly.

Rev. 10.2 says the book is a "little book" accompanied by angels which is the same book in Rev. 5 prophesying of these things to occur these past 20 centuries and the end of this age. It is not a large book. Nowhere do we find as well the book of life in Rev. 20 referred to as a large book nor without angels present as you claim. Angels accompany the books in Revelation, but you have no angels present now? I didn't think I had to clarify this point with you, but you believe in books devoid of the presence of angels. These are demons or fallen angels then that you pose as loved ones. You present different dimensions and void of angels. You speak of a tree that is not in 3rd heaven but elsewhere? None of this agrees with God's word. There are 3 specific books in Revelation, but you present many books none of which are identified as these 3 books? Again, nothing you speak of agrees with the Bible.

There are no pulsating orbs in Scripture. This is more your imagination and Satanic elements imposed on your mind that you don't resist. Meaningless pulsating orbs of gold. It was wrong for you accuse me of adding the phrase "pulsating orb." Those were your own words. You are a liar towards to me. Shame on you. Satan is the father of lies and you are emulating him. Appreciate how you can twist your mind and change your idea on a dime then Satanically accuse others for your flippant thoughts. You said, "You also change what I really said in my testimony by chancing and adding and selective editing my testimony such stating wrongly that I said I saw a pulsating orb, what I actually stated 'I saw a golden orb' ... when I never stated any such thing, this is not being truthful!" You are a liar. You have been exposed on the Internet for all to see! You said, "II saw a beautiful pulsating orb of golden light that I took for the Lord Jesusas it emanated perfect peace and love" mistakes and all. Satan will love you and even give you a peace to some extent, though not like the peace a saint has from God, to draw you to him.

"People in hell were not in a state of soul sleep" you said. Nobody has gone to Hell yet, nor are they in a state of soul sleep when they do. Hell is a conscious existence of eternal separation from God. Hades of the grave, that place of soul sleep, will be thrown into Hell.

Jesus has not returned personally to anyone but you say he has to you - twice even. Paul spoke with Jesus in the light when he fell to the ground on the road to Damascus, but this is proven because others with him fell to the ground also and heard His voice. Paul had a conversation with Him. You had no such conversation. Satan whom you call Jesus likes to be as coy as possible. We are told in Scripture when Jesus returns we will all know it, so this is more your self speaking with some spirit not of God. It is a great tragedy many who take the spirit masquerading as an angel of light to be Jesus. Muhammad and Joseph Smith did that. It's kind of late to be starting a new cult now at 72 isn't it?

Your story gets more creative: "lately have begun to remember more and more about thestrange otherworldly realms I saw over the period of three hours." The embellishment increases.

You are both dogmatic in what you experienced and dogmatic that it is from God despite these many holes in your story. You question nothing of the validity of your experience that it is without deception. I don't need to know you personally to know you are not only deceived but deceiving others. Your words should convict you. The Holy Spirit is telling me that the evil spirit assisted you in recovery to come back to teach more false teachings to deceive the world further since what you preach contradicts the Scriptures as we have gone over together.

The depths of your deceit go down further and further. I never changed what you wrote. You wrote "pulsating orb." That would be very sinful to change a golden orb to pulsating orb. I did not do that. You mentioned that it is both golden and pulsating. You are not taking responsibility for what you said but ever changing your story just as you said over the years you added more details to your story. You said, "There was also much more to my experience" which I can understand you are afraid to talk about considering how little you said already exposes you so much.

The books of the Bible in Rev. 10 & 20 are in 3rd heaven so to see another book outside of Heaven would have to be Hell or your imagination. Either way, it is false. There are not multi-realms you purport nor are they discussed in Scripture: just simply heaven (3rd heaven), hell, universe (1st heaven), 2nd heaven and hades.

Don't accuse and blame me for discerning the holes in your story. I doubt you will ever repent to discern in agreement with God's word.

Several weeks continue to pass by and you keep talking but never address the verses that support soul sleep. Where you shut your mind down is where the evil spirit has a hold on you.

"And death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death" (Rev. 20.14). The second death, the lake of fire, is Hell. That would be weird and nonsensical if it was Hell cast into Hell. The Lake of Fire is Hell. Hades is not Hell. You are a false teacher and experienced a Satanic near death experience twice and were approached by an evil spirit masquerading as Jesus when you were a teenager.

You are a necromancer talking to dead people in heaven.

savedwheat

10-13-2012, 09:00 PM

Alan McDougall,

When you keep dying do you channel these people you say are in a place but that it is not 3rd heaven? Do they prophesy for you? How do you know these spirit communications are of God that you claim are with people? And since nobody is resurrected yet, how can you see them when you claim you see them waiting for you since they don't have bodies? God is spirit so nobody can see the Father. I thought man is spirit, soul and body, so without his body in 3rd heaven you can't see him. Therefore you are claiming to see people in reality you can't see, so they must be demons or evil spirits posing as loved ones. You are greatly deceived.

Satan is the author of confusion.

Alan McDougall

11-10-2012, 12:32 PM

I ask you respectfully to look at the video below and please come back to me with your comments!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZBRerhkEyQ&feature=related

Churchwork

11-10-2012, 04:37 PM

Alan McDougall

11-11-2012, 08:03 AM

When someone says they saw heaven and hell in their near death experience I have no problem with that. Where I do find a problem is when the reporting does not agree with the conditions of heaven and hell given in Scripture. You'd be contradicting the word of God. Therefore, I know it is not of God and not an accurate depiction of reality when you claim it is but some Satanic deception to impart a false teaching as occurred in your case that you gave into and don't resist.

You should be concerned with your conduct by how you continue to avoid the verses given above that expose you as you keep deflecting onto other links without being cordial by responding personally to those points evidenced in Scripture.

I see you have changed the title of my thread from My clinical death experience contradicts soul sleep and added a lie That I talk to dead people. I never put this in the Title of my thread and by doing this you have changed the truth into your own lie. I have never ever spoken to any dead people in my life, you accuse a born again blood washed Christian of being under Satanic deception , I think you should have a careful look at yourself .

Please explain why you altered the Title of my thread, without asking permission? I really am sure people will get into heaven, not because of you, but in spite of you!

Churchwork

11-11-2012, 06:27 PM

Alan,

Notice what I did. I moved your thread from the Soul Sleep forums to the Occult forums because your testimony does not match with God's word. You said "I saw numerous people all gathered to welcome me into the afterlife, all mybeloved were there. It seemed like a welcome home party." Most peoples' loved ones are going to Hell, but in your case you said "all my beloved were there." I see self exalted in your words centered around you.

Additionally you describe it as a "party" going on right now of all your beloved ones. In many cases there is this necromancy communication going on with those posed as loved ones. You were about to speak to your welcoming party if you had not been "drawn back to the earthly world" at that moment. These evil spirits masquerading as loved ones and their party spirit contradict what "we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep" (1 Thess. 4.15). Those who have died are asleep right now. They are not partying it up right now in heaven.

You are greatly deceived and open to suggestions from these evil spirits masquerading as loved ones. Hence, the communications you have with dead people as a "welcome party" is Satanic. Don't think Christians can't be deceived. You are deceived already to think so. People are not going to heaven in spite of you or me as you suggest. People are going to heaven because they will be raptured there because of being saved and overcoming (both conditions are required). But nobody is in heaven yet, not even David a man after God's own heart, so when you say people are in heaven right now, you are a deceiver and confused. "For David is not ascended into the heavens" (Acts 2.34).

The next step in your journey of false teaching and deception is to communicate with these loved ones which is necromancy as has been the path of many before you who claim their loved ones are partying it up in heaven right now with welcoming words at some welcoming gate. My prayers go out to you for you know not what you do.

We should keep the title of your thread as you are being dishonest about it to reflect the actual position you hold so as not to deceive people what you are really about.

jerryfromkerry

11-17-2012, 09:07 AM

Alan McDougall

11-21-2012, 04:07 PM

I read all of the above and I can only state what the Holy Scriptures say about this. Ezek 18;4 (KJ) "The soul that is sinning, it itself will die" Ecclesiastes 9;5-10, TEV Yes the living know they are going to die,BUT THE DEAD KNOW NOTHING..................... Work hard at whatever you do,BECAUSE THERE WILL BE NO ACTION NO THOUGHT,NO KNOWLEDGE,NO WISDOM IN THE WORLD OF THE DEAD_AND THAT IS WHERE YOU ARE GOING" Sobering words from the Holy Bible

I would like to remind you that only God is my judge and it is He that will define my final destiny, not you!

Romans 2New International Version (NIV)

God’s Righteous Judgment2 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

Churchwork

11-21-2012, 06:09 PM

Alan McDougall,

God has already judged you and your destiny on Eccl. 9.5-10 when you die you go to soul sleep later to be resurrected to be with God or with Satan.

5 The living at least know they will die, but the dead know nothing. They have no further reward, nor are they remembered. 6 Whatever they did in their lifetime—loving, hating, envying—is all long gone. They no longer play a part in anything here on earth. 7 So go ahead. Eat your food with joy, and drink your wine with a happy heart, for God approves of this! 8 Wear fine clothes, with a splash of cologne!

9 Live happily with the woman you love through all the meaningless days of life that God has given you under the sun. The wife God gives you is your reward for all your earthly toil. 10 Whatever you do, do well. For when you go to the grave, there will be no work or planning or knowledge or wisdom.

Your application of Rom. 2 is faulty.

1 You may think you can condemn such people, but you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself, for you who judge others do these very same things. 2 And we know that God, in his justice, will punish anyone who does such things. 3 Since you judge others for doing these things, why do you think you can avoid God’s judgment when you do the same things? 4 Don’t you see how wonderfully kind, tolerant, and patient God is with you? Does this mean nothing to you? Can’t you see that his kindness is intended to turn you from your sin?

When someone judges you Alan for your false teaching that does not agree with God's word on soul sleep that person who judges you is not "just as bad" as you, for he does not "do these very same things" by falsely teaching that you go to heaven immediately upon going to rest. For yours or anyone's false teaching Alan, God "will punish anyone who does such things."

A Christian won't be judged with you for the same things because a Christian does not "do the same things" as you Alan. "Don't you see how wonderfully kind, tolerant, and patient God is with you? Does this mean nothing to you" Alan"? Can't you see the patience shown to you to try to help you is so that you will turn from this sin of your false teaching?

"Wherefore comfort one another with these words" (1 Thess. 4.18). What words?

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him" (v.14). God will. God hasn't yet, but He will.

"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep" (v.15). They are asleep now in soul sleep, timeless unawares in Abraham's bosom otherwise known as the good side of Hades/Sheol.

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first" (v.16). The Lord himself has not descended yet so the dead are still asleep.

"Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (v.17). Shall be caught up together with those asleep. Shall is the future.

Pray on this as I pray for your understanding. Hades and Sheol will be thrown into Hell since nobody goes down to the grave anymore after the 1000 years, that is, after the Jesus reigns on earth for 1000 years. "And death and hades were cast into the Lake of Fire" (Rev. 20.14). Hell is not thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is Hell.

savedwheat

11-21-2012, 06:15 PM

Alan,

Since your clinical death experience contradicts soul sleep, you know that the visions you received were not from God but Satan, and if not Satan then one of his evil spirits, a fallen angel of demon, or your own self and imagination gone wild even a combination thereof.

Faithful

11-29-2012, 06:04 PM

Alan,

Gary R. Habermas has done extensive studies on NDE's - near death experiences - over 100 well evidenced cases.
http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?4962-Filling-Naturalism-s-Void-AVI-63-MB-by-Gary-R-Habermas&p=10183#post10183

He considers yours to be common neurology not necessarily of God.