Did Jesus Confirm a Covenant for 7 Years Split Up by Two 3 1/2 Year Periods? [Archive]

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Churchwork

05-21-2012, 12:35 PM

Dan. 9.25 and 9.26a deals with the coming of the Messiah and atonement--Jesus "cut off". What follows in the rest of 9.26 is the "people of the [coming Antichrist] prince" who will "destroy the city and the sanctuary." The Roman people are not Jesus' people. Then verse 27 says the same prince (not the Messiah prince) will make a treaty or confirm A (not The New) "covenant" with the Jews for "one unit of seven" or 7 years. This is Daniel's 70th seven. He will cause "sacrifices to cease" because Israel reinstituted them again. Desolations follow for three and a half years to the return of Jesus. The Antichrist tries to mimic Jesus, for as Jesus was the fulfilment of the sacrifices, the Antichrist will try to do the same. This important aspect goes overlooked by many.

"For warships from western coastlands will scare him off, and he will withdraw and return home. But he will vent his anger against the people of the holy covenant and reward those who forsake the covenant. His army will take over the Temple fortress, pollute the sanctuary, put a stop to the daily sacrifices, and set up the sacrilegious object that causes desecration. He will flatter and win over those who have violated the covenant. But the people who know their God will be strong and will resist him" (Dan. 11.30-32).

The problem with placing Dan. 9.27 at the cross, of course, is that places verse 27 after the temple is destroyed in verse 26. That makes no sense. So one would have to squeeze the text and reorder things to make it say what you want it to say. Daniel is giving a sequence of events. Daniel addresses the Antichrist but this alternate view does not. That is a problem since clearly the Antichrist (2 Thess. 2.4) will erect himself in the Temple so he should be mentioned. Naturally Daniel addresses the Antichrist as "the prince." People might get another idea what the Antichrist is, perhaps not a person, yet he is a prince, and he is the cause of desolation.

The 69 sevens are dealt with in vv. 25,26 leaving "one week" for the 70th seven. Jesus never confirmed a covenant for 7 years. He confirmed THE NEW Covenant for 3 years in His ministry. Dan. 9.27 said there would be desolations to the end, but Israel is not desolate today. They are a nation again. Their Temple will be built soon. Their land is flowing with milk and honey and are great exporters of fruit. Dan. 9.26 says "war and desolations are determined" rather than being left desolate. Thus, Gabriel reveals Israel will be a nation again sometime after the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD, but before ACTUALLY being left desolate "until the consummation" (v.27).

If it was true Jesus was cut off in the middle of the 70th seven then it shouldn't have said the Messiah would be cut off after the 69th seven for that would be misleading since "cut off" after the 69th seven should be shortly, not years later. We know from Nisan 1, 444 BC (Neh. 2.1), the declaration to rebuild the Temple, the 173,880th day (69 x 7 x 360) is March 28, 33 AD (Gregorian)--the 1st day of the 4 day inspection of the Lamb. Jesus died on the cross April 1, 33 AD, Passover, Friday, Nisan 14, April Fool's Day. No such date exists in the few years prior to 33 AD to land on Friday, Passover, Nisan 14. This data does not agree with this alternate reading of Daniel 9. The 69th seven and the 70th seven do not overlap by 3 1/2 years. That would be inconsistent with the 69 sevens.

What I believe will happen is these folks who believe this other view will be deceived by the Antichrist because they deny his treaty of 7 years. In fact, they may mistake him for Jesus because they claim it is Jesus' confirming of a covenant when it is really the Antichrist's. Interesting.Up

"on the wing of abominations shall come one [Jesus] that maketh desolate"? (Dan. 9.27)Since when does Jesus ride on the wing of abominations?

By the way what is this alternate reading of Daniel called? We should give a name to or label those who believe this other view so we can be protected from them.

Faithful

05-28-2012, 04:05 PM

The covenant God has with Israel is to the center of all nations. This is not the same as the new covenant through the atonement to receive eternal life and the Holy Spirit indwelling for those who receive Christ to be saved, nor is it the covenant the Antichrist will make with Israel to form a false treaty then breaks that covenant (Dan. 9.27) to "pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and shall place the abomination that maketh desolate" (Dan. 11.30, cf. Matt. 24.15).

How can you know the 70th seven has not started yet? Because the 69th and 70th sevens don't overlap. The 69th seven concluded March 28, 33 AD (Gegorian), Nisan 10, the 1st day of the 4 day inspection of the lamb before Jesus died on the cross April 1, 33 AD Passover, Friday, Nisan 14, April Fool's Day.

And through the 3 passovers given in the gospels Jesus ministered for 2 to 3 years, nor more than 3 years. I have given you these proofs. You avoid them. What you avoid shows where you are flawed.

What then is the danger of the historicist's? He will be overtaken by the Antichrist because he denies his existence. What he considers to be Jesus in Dan. 9.27 Christians recognize clearly as being the Antichrist.

Faithful

05-28-2012, 07:30 PM

Don't run away. Deal with these specific problems of your view:

1) The 69th and 70th sevens don't overlap but you have them overlap which is totally inconsistent because none of the sevens before the 70th seven ever overlapped.

2) Through careful study of the Scriptures using two independent methods we find that Jesus could not have preached more than 3 years and it was probably closer to 2 years.

3) Since you remove the Antichrist from the picture (Dan. 9.27) and replace him with Jesus does that not mean you will accept the Antichrist as Jesus when He returns?

4) The people of the prince are the Romans but how can it be said Jesus is the prince of the Romans?

5) Cart before the horse. It's strange to place Dan. 9.27 after the 69th seven (v.26) if Dan. 9.27 was the cross, for the cross in verse 25 occurred before verse 26.

6) Desolation did not continue to the end (v.27) after Jesus died, for the Temple was still erect to 70 AD and Israel is a nation again about to build the 3rd Temple. Desolations are to the end once Antichrist erects himself in the 3rd Temple (2 Thess. 2.4) though the Temple will not be destroyed this time (Rev. 11.2).

7) There is no record of Jesus confirming a 7 year covenant in 27 AD, 28 AD, 29 AD, 30 AD, 31 AD, 32 AD or 33 AD.

My prayer goes out to you to pray on these fleshly readings of the Scriptures.

Nottheworld

05-28-2012, 09:50 PM

re: Markusanthem @ christianforums.com

There is no overlap. Jesus was here and will be here for the entire 70th week. Jesus came after 69 weeks, for the 70th week. Jesus was cut off after 69 weeks, during the 70th week. Jesus both came and was cut off during the 70th week.
Dan. 9.26 says "after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off," it doesn't say Jesus came after the 69 sevens. We know Jesus died 4 days after the 69th seven was complete, thus, that contradicts your claim Jesus came after the 69th seven and the overlap problem remains. Jesus ministered for 2-3 years before the end of the 69th seven March 28, 33 AD (Gregorian).

God said through scripture that Jesus was anointed and baptized and began his ministry at age 30. God said through scripture that Jesus celebrated a total of four passovers after his ministry began, including the one where he offered himself as the sacrificial Lamb.
It doesn't say Jesus began His ministry at 30, but about 30 so somewhere between 26 and 34 as a humble estimate. Scripture provides 3 passovers specifically, including the one with Himself as ransom, which is 2 years. You add a fourth never specifically stated.

No, dear, it is you that have added the antichrist to the picture in Daniel 9:27.
You've replaced "the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six" (Rev. 13.18) with Jesus.

No one is saying "Jesus is the prince of the Romans". That's your concoction. God said he sent the Roman armies to destroy the city and the sanctuary. The "prince that shall come" is Jesus. Jesus/God is the one who said he destroyed the city and the sanctuary using the Roman armies.
You're contradicting yourself, for you said Jesus is not the prince of the Romans and then said the prince is Jesus in "the people of the prince that shall come".

Jesus was cut off during the 70th week, which is after the 69th week. No scripture says that the destruction of the city and the temple are within the 70 weeks. You are adding to scripture. It says that Messiah the prince, the prince that shall come, is the one who destroys the city and the sanctary because of Israel's many abominations.
Since the last 3 1/2 years the city of Jerusalem will be overrun then the desolation is upon the City even the consummation (Dan. 9.27) though the Temple will be protected ("measured" Rev. 11.2). Jesus doesn't destroy the city in 70 AD nor in 2019-22, for Jesus is not the prince of the Romans, the "people of the prince".

Yes, Israel was desolated, without land, city and temple until the time of the end. God said Israel would be revived after two days, restored on the 3rd. It's happening. Now, I'm done repeating myself over and over and over again. You have just as much access to the Holy Spirit and the Scriptures as I do. Stop adding in the antichrist where he doesn't belong and trust what God says. I'm done talking with you.
There were desolations and wars after the end of Israel in 70 AD, even to the consummation after Israel is restored and overrun during the Great Tribulation (Dan. 9.27). God never said Israel would be revived after two days, restored on the third. He was speaking of Jesus resurrected. The problem is you are repeating yourself and not addressing the contradictions in your view. Stop replacing the Antichrist with Jesus. That will never do.

If the antichrist is around, the consummation (the end) has already come and wrath (indignation) is proceeding.
The wrath of Satan and the wrath of God are both going on simultaneously during the Great Tribulation. The consummation is with Jesus defeating the Antichrist.

Look at the scriptures that describe the antichrist and his actions. No scripture says he will destroy Jerusalem and the temple, leaving Israel desolate until the time of the end (the consummation) - none! It already happened.
Of course there is Scripture saying Israel will be overrun during the Great Tribulation. "But do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample over the holy city for forty-two months" (Rev. 11.2). You can measure the 3rd Temple for it will not be destroyed as it was in 70 AD.

The antichrist will stand in the temple of God and claim to be God. He will "plant his tabernacles between the seas in the beautiful holy mountain". Again, for the millionth time, the antichrist does not destroy Jerusalem and the Temple, desolating them until the time of the end, anywhere in scripture.
To be left desolate to the time of the end "it is given over to the nations" but, again, the Temple this time will not be destroyed.

Nottheworld

05-29-2012, 11:43 AM

Nottheworld

05-29-2012, 12:00 PM

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Amen. Too bad you think the Antichrist is Jesus. And too bad you overlap the 69th seven and 70th seven when the 69th seven ended March 28, 33 AD (Gregorian).

On the other hand, I have listed and quoted the scriptures that prove that "Messiah the Prince", "the prince that shall come", is Jesus who confirms the new covenant with Israel for seven years during the 70th week, (half of which is fulfilled with the 3 1/2 year ministry of Christ and the other half is yet to come during the final 3 1/2 years) and who claims responsibility in scripture for destroying the city and the sanctuary.

That is how we know which one of us is listening to God and trusting in His Word.
There are no Scriptures of Jesus confirming a covenant for 7 years. Surely something this important should have been mentioned. You have even seen the proofs that Jesus only ministered for 2 to 3 years. Don't confuse the Antichrist with Jesus. "The prince that shall come" is not "Messiah the Prince." Distinguish between the Prince and the "prince of the people," that is, the prince oft he Romans. Jesus never takes claim for destroying the city and the Temple. Jesus would never destroy the Temple. How evil that would be. He wants to reign in the Temple for 1000 years on earth.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Matt 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Isaiah 47:5 Sit thou silent, and get thee into darkness, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called, The lady of kingdoms.
6I was wroth with my people, I have polluted mine inheritance, and given them into thine hand: thou didst shew them no mercy; upon the ancient hast thou very heavily laid thy yoke.

Psalm 74: O God, why hast thou cast us off for ever? why doth thine anger smoke against the sheep of thy pasture?
2 Remember thy congregation, which thou hast purchased of old; the rod of thine inheritance, which thou hast redeemed; this mount Zion, wherein thou hast dwelt.
3 Lift up thy feet unto the perpetual desolations; even all that the enemy hath done wickedly in the sanctuary.
4 Thine enemies roar in the midst of thy congregations; they set up their ensigns for signs.
5 A man was famous according as he had lifted up axes upon the thick trees.
6 But now they break down the carved work thereof at once with axes and hammers.
7 They have cast fire into thy sanctuary, they have defiled by casting down the dwelling place of thy name to the ground.
8 They said in their hearts, Let us destroy them together: they have burned up all the synagogues of God in the land.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Amen. Never do any of these verses say Jesus is the prince of the Romans. God, therefore, allows the people of the Antichrist, that is, the Romans to destroy the Temple for Israel's sins. A remnant of Israel (Rev. 7.4) will be preserved at the end of this age when Jesus returns.

Of course it is Jesus who confirms the covenant with many of Israel for one week (the final week of years) because God said so.

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Nowhere in Matt. 15.24 or Rom. 11.26,27 do we see a 7 year covenant by Jesus. Certainly Jesus is the fulfilment of prophecy about sacrifices, but still no 7 year covenant. On the other hand, we observe the actions of the Antichrist for 42 months repeated over and over in Scripture and it is during this time he breaks the 7 year covenant since 42 months is half of 7 years or 84 months.

Have you thought about repenting, no longer confusing the Antichrist for Jesus, so as to give your life to Christ? This is my prayer for you.

scuggers1

05-30-2012, 07:46 AM

Churchwork

05-30-2012, 02:28 PM

the 70th week of Daniel was not a week of years as shown by the original hebrew. Rather it was a literal 7-day week commonly known as the passion week. Yes Jesus did confirm THE covenant for one week and in the midst was cut off and put an end to any animal sacrifice. the idea of a separate 7 year tribulation began in the 1800's by the Jesuits society to protect the pope's labelling as the anti-Christ. The same fallacious doctrine was later adopted by Darby, Scoefield and most of the latter-day church. The writings of the early church fathers reflected a continuous 70 week-of-years for the book of Daniel. The present-day covenant with Hell & death has already been attempted 3 times since 1993 and the Lord has disannulled it every time. People expecting a rebuilt temple with a 7-year peace treaty will be waiting awhile. It took me over 20 years to finally get this. The Lord reveals the truth to people whenever He is ready to and not before.
That makes no sense of course since all 69 sevens were 2,520 days each. How strange the 70th seven was only 7 days! We know from the declaration to rebuild the Temple in troublous times there would seven sets of seven then another sixty-two sets of seven for a total of sixty-nine sets of seven after which time the Messiah would be cut off.

7 x 69 x 360 = 173,880 days. There are exactly 173,880 days from the declaration to rebuild th Temple Nisan 1, 444 BC (Neh. 2) to March 28, 33 AD (Gregorian) which is Nisan 10--the first day of the 4 day inspection of the Lamb before Passover and His triumphant entry into Jerusalem. The 4 day inspection is March 28, 29, 30, 31. Jesus died on the cross April 1, 33 AD which is Nisan 14, Passover, April Fool's Day. This agrees perfectly. And there was a lunar eclipse on the day Jesus died on the cross.

Furthermore, you do not know how to account for the 69 sevens. Jesus confirmed a covenant for 7 days. No mention by any of the Apostles of a 7 day period are given. Yes, Jesus entered Jerusalem on Monday, died on Friday and was resurrected on Sunday, but nowhere did Jesus say there would be a 7 day confirmation. He did say He would be crucified and resurrect on the 3rd day. What's even more damaging for you is that Friday is not the middle of the 7 days from Monday. Your approach is too ad hoc and presents too many holes in your theory. Worst of all it opens you up to accepting the Antichrist when he comes.

Those who believe the final 7 years have yet to arrive don't think the Pope is the Antichrist. Rather, the Pope is part of religious Rome (Rev. 17) that makes drunk the nations with the wine of the wrath of her fornications (14.8). We believe that the Antichrist comes out of the revived Roman empire, not religious Rome, the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns as per the Scriptures. He is none other than Nero. Neron Kaisar = 666 in Aramaic. He is one of the 5 fallen Caesars as per Rev. 17.10.

The Church has always believed the Tribulation will occur at the end of this age, a war to end all wars, just as the Bible says. The church fathers also didn't think the Antichrist would be a Latin man, so it was sometime in the future. The original view of the church fathers was called chiliasm that which I present to you here now--premillennialism. The early church fathers believed in the Tribulation at the end of this age. This is nothing new at all.

You're confusing yourself because initially you argued for the weeks to be literally weeks then you turn around and say these are "70 weeks-of-years". You're confused. And know the 70 sevens are not continuous, but the 69th and 70th seven are separated by the Church age since obviously the 69th and 70th sevens can't overlap. Since you deny the coming Antichrist will you not be swept up by him? Whom you consider to be Jesus, Christians consider to be the Antichrist that you deny eve exists. Do know the Antichrist of all antichrists is coming!

A covenant with hell and death? The covenant the Antichrist makes with Israel is not with hell and death, but it is a peace accord. This has been attempted 3 times since 1993? How can it have been attempted since 1993 when Rev. 6.12 has not taken place yet and the Antichrist has not come on the scene yet? Any attempts in the past, therefore, would just be precursors.

Boy, won't that upset you when construction the 3rd Temple begins no later than 2015 so it can be completed with 2300 days left to the end of the Tribulation to finally be cleansed (Dan. 8.14). It sounds like you have left the faith, or should I say was never in it to begin with, of what is so clearly outlined in the Scriptures. Observe the Temple in the Tribulation through verses such as 2 Thess. 2.4 and Rev. 11.2.

Churchwork

06-09-2012, 09:28 PM

The problem of course is Jesus died on the cross April 1, 33 AD (Gregorian), so for the 70th seven to follow would mean Jesus was cut off the 4th day of the 70th seven, or 6th day of the week, which disagrees with verse 27 which reads "in the midst of the week". Where did Jesus confirm a covenant for 7 years? It is too strange too accept.

As well Jesus only ministered 2 to 3 years at most using the "techie method." What grounds is there for overlapping the 69th seven with the 70th seven? That is totally inconsistent with the 69 sevens which were all 2,520 days each and consecutive.

Furthermore, who can say "the people of the prince" (v.26) are the people of the Jesus, for clearly the people are the Romans. Are the Romans the people of Jesus? Of course not.

The negative consequence of thinking the prince in Dan. 9.27 is Jesus is now what is of the Antichrist you treat as of Jesus, and you accept the Antichrist as Jesus.

Verse 26 speaks of the cross then follows the discussion of the Temple being destroyed in the next part of the verse, so why speak of the cross again in verse 27?

Desolations did not continue to the end after Jesus died, for the Temple remained till 70 AD, and Israel is a nation again soon to build the Temple which won't be destroyed this time for the Antichrist will reign in it (2 Thess. 2.4). We are to measure the Temple because it is protected (Rev. 11.2), but measure not the court outside the Temple because it will be overrun by political Rome.

This is not entirely true then if this prince in verse 27 is referring to Jesus: "overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate" (v.27).

Churchwork

06-09-2012, 09:53 PM

lawrenceb @ talkjesus.com

"Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The Lord God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah." (Ezra 1:2).
The declaration to rebuild the Temple was Neh. 2, Nisan 1, 444 BC.

Nehemiah Goes to Jerusalem

1 Early the following spring, in the month of Nisan, during the twentieth year of King Artaxerxes’ reign, I was serving the king his wine. I had never before appeared sad in his presence. 2 So the king asked me, “Why are you looking so sad? You don’t look sick to me. You must be deeply troubled.”

Then I was terrified, 3 but I replied, “Long live the king! How can I not be sad? For the city where my ancestors are buried is in ruins, and the gates have been destroyed by fire.”

4 The king asked, “Well, how can I help you?”

With a prayer to the God of heaven, 5 I replied, “If it please the king, and if you are pleased with me, your servant, send me to Judah to rebuild the city where my ancestors are buried.”

6 The king, with the queen sitting beside him, asked, “How long will you be gone? When will you return?” After I told him how long I would be gone, the king agreed to my request.

7 I also said to the king, “If it please the king, let me have letters addressed to the governors of the province west of the Euphrates River, instructing them to let me travel safely through their territories on my way to Judah. 8 And please give me a letter addressed to Asaph, the manager of the king’s forest, instructing him to give me timber. I will need it to make beams for the gates of the Temple fortress, for the city walls, and for a house for myself.” And the king granted these requests, because the gracious hand of God was on me.

9 When I came to the governors of the province west of the Euphrates River, I delivered the king’s letters to them. The king, I should add, had sent along army officers and horsemen to protect me. 10 But when Sanballat the Horonite and Tobiah the Ammonite official heard of my arrival, they were very displeased that someone had come to help the people of Israel.

Nehemiah Inspects Jerusalem’s Wall

11 So I arrived in Jerusalem. Three days later, 12 I slipped out during the night, taking only a few others with me. I had not told anyone about the plans God had put in my heart for Jerusalem. We took no pack animals with us except the donkey I was riding. 13 After dark I went out through the Valley Gate, past the Jackal’s Well, and over to the Dung Gate to inspect the broken walls and burned gates. 14 Then I went to the Fountain Gate and to the King’s Pool, but my donkey couldn’t get through the rubble. 15 So, though it was still dark, I went up the Kidron Valley instead, inspecting the wall before I turned back and entered again at the Valley Gate.

16 The city officials did not know I had been out there or what I was doing, for I had not yet said anything to anyone about my plans. I had not yet spoken to the Jewish leaders—the priests, the nobles, the officials, or anyone else in the administration. 17 But now I said to them, “You know very well what trouble we are in. Jerusalem lies in ruins, and its gates have been destroyed by fire. Let us rebuild the wall of Jerusalem and end this disgrace!” 18 Then I told them about how the gracious hand of God had been on me, and about my conversation with the king.

They replied at once, “Yes, let’s rebuild the wall!” So they began the good work.

19 But when Sanballat, Tobiah, and Geshem the Arab heard of our plan, they scoffed contemptuously. “What are you doing? Are you rebelling against the king?” they asked.

20 I replied, “The God of heaven will help us succeed. We, his servants, will start rebuilding this wall. But you have no share, legal right, or historic claim in Jerusalem.”

Churchwork

06-09-2012, 09:56 PM

In the prevailing view of Bible prophecy, the well known passage in Daniel chapter 9 concerning the 70 weeks of Daniel is commonly interpreted to put forth the proposition that the Antichrist will make a 7 year treaty with the Jewish people. But is this proposition actually accurate, and if it is not, what are the implications for the rather large cluster of prophetic interpretations that rest upon this idea of a treaty that will be broken "in the midst of the week?" (Daniel 9:27 KJV).

You do realize Harold Camping was an amillennialist, held to your beliefs and agreed with your view that the prince in Dan. 9.27 was Jesus.

Churchwork

06-09-2012, 09:57 PM

The last aspect of the prophecy elaborates on the destruction of the sanctuary and the abominations that are to occur. It even describes the reason for the devastation as the text tells us it is "...for the overspreading of abominations [that] he shall make it desolate." (Daniel 9:27)

You said verse 27 "even describes the REASON for the devastation."

But verse 27 says, "upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate." Jesus is not returning to pour wrath upon Israel but to save Israel.

Churchwork

06-09-2012, 10:05 PM

The Messiah arrives after the 2nd period of 434 years (62 weeks in the text). There is no reason to believe the unfolding of the timeline stops at that point. Thus, the Messiah arrives at the beginning of the 70th week and it commenced when He arrived. Remember, the focus of the prophecy is on the Messiah who must accomplish everything specified within the 70-week period.
"From the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks" (v.25). This verse does allow for the Messiah to minister during the 69th seven. It does not explicitly state that the Messiah begins His ministry after the 69th seven. But it does say, "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself" (Dan. 9.26). If you were to take Jesus' ministry to begin after the 69th seven ended March 28, 33 AD (Gregorian) to immediately begin the 70th seven March 29, 33 AD this makes no sense, because obviously Jesus began His ministry 2 years before that.

The main reason for the separation of the 69th and 70th seven is because in God's infinite foreknowledge, He knew Israel would reject their Messiah, so His millennial reign could not begin as yet; hence, the Church age to receive the blessing beforehand. To seal this fact further, clearly Matthew 24 was not fulfilled during Jesus' first coming.

Churchwork

06-09-2012, 10:17 PM

In the next verse, the prophecy provides us with the details of the cutting off of the Saviour. Again, the focal point of the entire prophecy is the Messiah, so after He arrives, "he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week...." (Daniel 9:27) This is precisely what would be expected as when He arrived, there would be "one week" left to the 70 weeks. The obvious question should be how can the Antichrist suddenly get inserted into this prophecy and "confirm" a covenant that has never been mentioned? Indeed, the Antichrist himself has never been mentioned in the entire text!

A regression back to the cross seems unfitting after 70 AD passes with Dan. 9.26. Who is expecting confirming a covenant for 7 years? Even with 20/20 hindsight we can find no specific mentioning of any such thing. Surely something of such great importance should not be left to guessing.

Why does the Antichrist come next? Because it follows since "the people of the prince that shall come" (v.26) are of the same spirit as the Antichrist. Thus, "the prince that shall come" is the future Antichrist that shall come. Naturally what follows is the covenant he makes with Israel (v.27) as he still wants their annihilation as Hitler and Islam strived for, just as was foreshadowed in Dan. 11: "And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate" (v.31). This will be the image of the beast in Rev. 13.14 set up by the 2nd beast, the False Prophet. "See the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place. Whoso readeth, let him understand" (Matt. 24.15).

"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" (2 Thess. 2.4).

The middle of the 2,520 days of the Tribulation is Rev. 9.1 when the 1260 days start mentioned several times, called the Great Tribulation when the Antichrist, the 1st beast, breaks the covenant (Dan. 9.27).

Revelation 8 are the first four trumpets of the 2,520 days that hurt the earth. What follows are the 3 woes or last 3 trumpets from Rev. 9 to 11 that hurt and kills people.

Churchwork

06-09-2012, 10:35 PM

Furthermore, it's useful to recognize that the term covenant is not the same term as the word treaty. We separate the Bible into the Old Testament and the New Testament, and the word "testament" is interchangeable with the term covenant (see Hebrews 9:15). On the other hand, a treaty is a political instrument that is used between nations - not a sacred agreement between God and man.
These are the various usages of "covenant" in the Bible. See the Blue Letter Bible.

1) covenant, alliance, pledge

a) between men

1) treaty, alliance, league (man to man)
2) constitution, ordinance (monarch to subjects)
3) agreement, pledge (man to man)
4) alliance (of friendship)
5) alliance (of marriage)

b) between God and man

1) alliance (of friendship)
2) covenant (divine ordinance with signs or pledges)
2) (phrases)

a) covenant making
b) covenant keeping
c) covenant violation

Churchwork

06-09-2012, 10:47 PM

In the Old Testament, God made an agreement with man that if the people will adhere to His "covenant," He will protect and keep them and be their God. This is articulated in Exodus with the children of Israel where God says "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people...." (Exodus 19:5). In the very passage in question in Daniel, which is prophetic on its face, God further promises that He will bring the Messiah who will confirm the covenant that He has already made.

Jesus confirmed a covenant by being cut off (Dan. 9.26). The Antichrist tries to confirm a covenant as well only to break it (Dan. 11.31). He puts a twist on it always to copy Jesus in some ways to make it seem acceptable. "And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate."

Churchwork

06-09-2012, 10:56 PM

The twist on the truth that has come to dominate the prophetic expectations of so many millions will reap a bitter harvest. As vast numbers of Christians are deceived on this subject, their lives and actions are predicated on a false understanding of the immediate future - and the fruit of it will be dreadful. Very few understand the enormous spiritual ramifications of embracing significant error in our prophetic perspective. Indeed, it was the fact that Israel did not recognize the time of their visitation from God that brought the nation of Israel to "the overspreading of abominations" that were the natural outgrowth of their refusal to recognize Jesus as their promised Messiah.
The irony from your words is that a very small percentage of those who claim to be Christians believe what you accuse them of. Most are preterists, amillennialists, postmillennialists and other historicists like Harold Camping was. We are talking more than 1.5 billion souls agree with your position. Is this a "little flock" (Luke 12.32)? If you are going to appeal to the masses argument you yourself ought not to violate it, otherwise you carry a doublestandard.

"And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate" (Dan. 9.27).

Does Jesus sit "upon the wing of abominations"? I know this characterizes the Antichrist.

Churchwork

06-09-2012, 11:01 PM

The very fact that most "believers" will simply discard this pointed exegesis testifies that it is the organized churches that have perpetrated the great fraud that Christendom finds herself entangled in. And because of their lazy refusal to study the truth of the scriptures on a personal level - instead relying upon the false doctrines of their hireling shepherds - we will shortly see the big surprise in which so many that thought they were saved will be turned away. The scriptures will not be broken, and they tell us it is "for which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience." (Colossians 3:6)

-- Brother James
I read very very carefully every nook and cranny of what you said, responding accordingly, and when I review my responses with what you said, my position is strengthened even further. Whom you call Jesus I see as the Antichrist.

I don't consider you my brother in Christ but one unsaved soul, because I know there is so much more heresy that goes with your teaching.

Churchwork

06-10-2012, 04:43 PM

Re: Warped Warriors @ talkjesus.com

I also have seen this interpretation in my studies of the past. I too can see how this interpretation appears to match. However, I do not promote this interpretation. The interpretation I promote is "the prince that shall come" is the Antichrist and that he will confirm a 7 year peace treaty (which he will break after 3 1/2 years) with the Jews to allow them to build their 3rd Temple on the Temple Mount next to the Dome of the Rock.
It takes 2300 days for the Temple to be cleansed (Dan. 8.14) so the Temple would need to be completed by the 220th day of the Tribulation. And since construction of the temple will take more than 220 days, it would need to begin before the peace treaty. Therefore, I must respectfully disagree with your view that it is the Antichrist or the treaty of 7 years that allows the Jews to build the Temple, since they begin construction on it before then even before we know who the Antichrist is.

I never understood why there is a long gap between the 69th and 70th week.
I've always known the reason to be that the 70th seven was delayed because Israel rejected their Messiah, so God produced the Church to receive the blessing beforehand for these past 2000 years. Consequently, Israel will only reclaim her former glory (Dan. 9.24) once this final seven begins on Feast of Trumpets Sept. 14, 2015 and runs for 2,520 days to Tisha B'Av Aug. 7, 2022 when Jesus steps down on the mount of olives; then from the 1260th day (the last day) of the Great Tribulation (the latter half of the Tribulation) to the 1335th day which is 75 days more, Israel will be set up as the center of all nations Oct. 21, 2022 after Tabernacles is done.

People make so many mistakes in prophecy it boggles the mind, but when you start from the foundation the truth builds from there.

Churchwork

06-10-2012, 07:29 PM

Re: JRFifty @ talkjesus.com

I think Brother James said it best.
I think my responses said it best.

There was simply no 7 years spoken of at the time when Jesus ministered and paid the ransom on the cross, nor can we find any in retrospect.

And the 69th seven and 70th seven can't overlap which they would for we know when Jesus died 4 days after the 69th seven ended.

Even if you wanted to get creative and say the 70th seven started the day after the 69th seven Jesus would have died the 4th day into the 70th seven which would not be in the midst of the 70th week.

Jesus ministered from 2 to 3 years, not 3 1/2 years using the "techie method."

And all the other years when Jesus allegedly died were not on Fridays, but would the women wait 3 or 4 days to put spices on Jesus' body? What love is that?

We can be confident Jesus will return at the end of the 70th seven to destroy the Antichrist who will reign in the 3rd Temple (2 Thess. 2.4) that will not be damaged (Rev. 11.2) during the Great Tribulation.

Since you don't anticipate the Antichrist coming when he comes you will call him Jesus.

Churchwork

06-11-2012, 01:36 PM

Since the sacred text further tells us that at his ascension Christ “sat down” (Hebrews 1:3) at the right hand of the Father, we see this “holy place” is definitely associated with the “temple” in heaven. This means that any earthly temple, whether it presently stands, or is rebuilt in the future, can never contain the “holy place” spoken of in Scripture.
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" (2 Thess. 2.4). This 3rd Temple will remain unscathed during the Tribulation (Rev. 11.2). Such was not true during 70 AD (Dan. 9.26).

This Antichrist is "that man". He is not a spirit, but a person. He sits where? Not in Jesus. Not in a person, for he is a person. A person can't indwell another person. He is not in heaven. Where then can he be but in the 3rd Temple during the Tribulation?

Is there a temple in heaven? Where? There is the New Jerusalem that will come down, but it has no temple, for when God and the Lamb are the center of the New City on earth there is no need of a temple after the millennial reign.

Sometimes, well usually, I think people who hold your view are anti-semitic because you show a great disdain for the Jews, our little brother. Jesus said how you treat our little brother, He will treat you. Christians see the Temple on earth for Jesus needs a place to reign from for 1000 years, but this is not mutually exclusive of our temple or the temple Jesus was speaking He would raise the 3rd day. God never does things in a jerky fashion but transitions from one dispensation to the next. Jesus even let the Jews continue their sacrifices till 70 AD but not thereafter until the Tribulation. The Sabbath had ended, the Apostles fellowshipped on Sunday, but still managed to find time to go into the Jewish Synagogues on the Sabbath days as well. The millennial reign is a transition from this dispensation of grace to eternity future in the New City. The 1000 years is when Jesus reigns with a "rod of iron". He does not reign with a rod of iron now, nor will He need to do so in the New City and New Earth after the 1000 years. The millennial kingdom is not mutually exclusive of the kingdom of God in spiritual Christians and the kingdom of heaven by our outward conduct. The kingdom of heaven has three aspects: conduct, outward appearance of Christendom (which includes false Christians), and the reigning in the millennial-kingdom-to-come. The kingdom of heaven, reigning in the millennial kingdom, ends in a 1000 years from now, but the kingdom of God continues on in the New City and New Earth thereafter.

Agenda continue to seek to revive the Old Testament system of temples and sacrifices.
Judaism seeks to revive the OT sacrifices. That doesn't mean God is pleased with this. You seem to be under some mistaken assumption that Christians want to reinstitute the animal sacrifices either during the Tribulation or during the millennial reign of Christ on earth. The fact that you argue this which we don't believe in shows you don't get what's going on.

The tacit approval of the Jewish-Supremacists in the Judaeo-Christian “church” that claims the Jews are still the chosen people.
I see your Jewish hatred is hard at work. You would have made a good Nazi. Just as many nations, the sheep nations (good nations) in Matt. 25.31-46, will be preserved so will God's chosen nation which is Israel that will be the center of all nations centered at Jacob's ladder to the heavens. Still though any individual in Israel to be saved must receive Christ. Israel does not disappear as evident they are hear today and the promise has been fulfilled the people of Israel will return to the land. Consider this. Ezekiel's prophecy on his side for 390 days takes us to what month and year? If you add it up it takes us literally to May, 1948. Therefore, there should be no question in your heart, God wants to save the nation of Israel. However, since Israel forsook their covenant, God gave it to the the Church to possess beforehand, before He returns. Only then will a remnant of Israel (Rev. 7.1-8) be saved.

This “abomination” has already occurred many times, but it can still have more manifestations in which the harlot church takes yet another step towards the same heresy.

The Antichrist comes on the "wings of abomination one that make desolate" (Dan. 9.27). Does Jesus ride on the wings of abomination? God forbid NO! God allows the Antichrist, the prince of the Romans, to cause massive destruction and make desolate. Jesus not the Desolator.

"Forces from him shall appear and profane the temple and fortress, and shall take away the continual burnt offering. And they shall set up the abomination that makes desolate" (Dan. 11.31). Forces from a non-Jewish man shall profane the Jewish temple and take away the daily sacrifice. The abomination at the end of this age will be "an image to the beast [Antichrist], which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he [False Prophet] had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed" (Rev. 13.14,15).

-- Brother James
I don't consider you my brother because when the Antichrist is revealed and erects himself in the Temple, you admit you will consider him Jesus since to you there is no Antichrist who will do such a thing.

Churchwork

06-11-2012, 01:49 PM

Re: Linker @ talkesjesus.com

The Lord is the first “He” in Daniel 9:27, and the other prince is the second “he” repeating the same sequence of actions given in Daniel 9:26
This first "he" in Dan. 9.27 is the Antichrist. Jesus already died on the cross back in the first part of verse 26. Would you have Him die again? The second "he" in Dan. 9.27 is still the Antichrist. The "people of the prince that shall come" (v.26) are the Romans, and that prince has yet to arrive on the scene at the end of this age. This phrase is used to indicate that the Romans are of the same evil spirit as the Antichrist Neron Kaisar (666 in Aramaic) who will be resurrected at the end of this age out of the pit the Bible says.

This other prince will not “confirm the covenant” [Isaiah 11; 27:13; Matthew 24:29-31; Jeremiah 31:31-47; Zechariah 13:8-9; Romans 11:25-36], but will come to desecrate

The Antichrist does confirm "A covenant" not The Covenant. The people of the Antichrist destroyed the Temple in 70 AD (v.26), but in the Great Tribulation the Antichrist will erect himself as though he is God (2 Thess. 2.4) in the 3rd Temple which will remain unharmed (Rev. 11.2).

When this happens the Holy Spirit tells me many will accept this Antichrist as being Jesus.

Churchwork

06-11-2012, 04:51 PM

All of the visions of the Bible prophets are 100% consistent regarding the topic of this post ..... all of them

I can list them all for you if you like

Here is one example:

Daniel
9:27 And he [Jesus Christ] shall confirm the covenant [Jeremiah 31:31-37] with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he [the Assyrian] shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Micah
5:5 And this man [Jesus Christ] shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men.

5:6 And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.
It's not clear how you are interpreting this, but let me say these few words.

Micah 5.5 says "Assyrians" (NLT) not Assyrian. My NLT Life Application Study Bible says for Micah 5.5, "The Assyrians symbolically refer to all nations in every age that oppose God's people." Though Islamic countries partake in invading Israel with the revived Roman empire, there is no reason to believe the Antichrist is an Assyrian. Nero is not an Assyrian but comes from the 7 hilled city of Rome.

Micah 5.6 says "Assyrians" not Assyrian (NLT). "Assyrian" is not a person but all those who invade the land of Israel.

The "he" in the first part and second part of Dan. 9.27 are clearly the same person, but Jesus is not Assyrian so to insert Assyrian makes not sense. The only two possibilities are Jesus or the Antichrist Nero who is to come causes the sacrifice and oblation to cease. But it can't be Jesus because Dan. 9.27 says "A covenant" not "The Covenant," and it doesn't say NEW Covenant. Jesus already confirmed the covenant in verse 26. Verse 27 follows after the latter part of verse 26 when the Temple is destroyed 70 AD. Jesus does not ride "upon the wing of abomination." Those are words to depict Satan's Antichrist.

The one who confirms a covenant can't be Jesus who was cut off after the 69th seven was completed Monday, Nisan 10, March 28, 33 AD (Gregorian). This is the 1st day of the 4 day inspection of the lamb before Passover. It wouldn't make much sense to say "in the midst of the week" for that would be only 4 days later when Jesus died on the cross Friday, Nisan 14, April 1, 33 AD. This day had a lunar eclipse, and Satan calls it April Fool's Day to mock my Lord. To "confirm a covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause sacrifice and oblation to cease" wouldn't make much sense with Jesus cut off on the 6th day of the week (Friday) or on the 4th of 2,520 days of Daniel's final seven. That can hardly be construed as in the midst or middle (NKJV, NIV, NASB) of the week.

In conclusion you had to alter the meaning of these verses to make them agree with you, but I trust I have shown in doing so there are too many holes in your theory. However, it all makes perfect sense if the Antichrist is the "he" in both parts of Dan. 9.27.

Churchwork

06-11-2012, 05:17 PM

Micah
5:5 And this man [Jesus Christ] shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men.
Look how Satan recalls this verse to manipulate it in his grand scheme to replicate it.

"And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains [7 hilled city of Rome], on which the woman sitteth [great harlot of religious Rome]. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition" (Rev. 17.9-11).

5 + 1 (6th) + 1 (7th) + 1 (8th). While God's "seven shepherds, and eight principle men" are good, Satan tries to replicate it. How?

The 5 fallen are the 5 fallen Caesars who died horrible deaths. At the time of John's writing Domitian reigned ("one is"). He was the 6th. The other yet to come is the forerunner to the Antichrist. This forerunner continues only for short time because he is murdered.

The beast that "was" is Nero. Nero "is not" alive at the time of John's writing of Revelation. "He is the eighth" who "was" one of the five which is Nero. Only Nero's name comes to 666. The Antichrist is "of the seven" because he is the worst of all of them. The Antichrist is a person who is the first person who will go to Hell when Jesus returns.