Finestwheat
07-16-2011, 07:54 PM
Re: jari @ talkjesus.com
Actually God did choose us and We did not, choose him.
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Actually you misread this verse. God does the saving. Hence, He chose me. But there is a condition which is coming to God with an honest heart. So God creates His design, puts down the rules and laws of the system, and woos by His Spirit so God chooses those in His design He foreordained through the conduit of foreknowing our free choice. See He designed it this way, He made us sovereign free willed beings, so this is how He chooses His elect, and as I look back upon the fact that I was regenerated, I know that I have been chosen by God before the foundations of the world. If you say you were irresistibly selected then you entered into a false salvation, but if you, upon recalling, your regeneration, see that in fact you came to God with an honest heart having had the free choice to do so, you would realize this is why God gave grace upon grace because you fulfilled the condition for His working. It's a beautiful albeit complicated process. Certainly not as boring and dull as Calvinists would have you believe by being robotically selected mindlessly.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Calvinists live by works because they don't know if they are saved or not since it was not their choice, so they work for it, they persevere for it, whereas Christians we don't persevere to keep saved, but we are preserved in the faith as God promises to those who want to be preserved by giving our lives to the correct Jesus who keeps us. He never breaks His promise.
How can you prove that God chosed us because we did something or that he before knew our will?
I dont think you can....
You don't have to actually prove God's infinite foreknowledge is compatible with free will; all you need to do is realize it in your own personal experience our free will is real and accept the word of God for what it says that God is the "Savior of all men, specially those who believe" (1 Tim. 4.10) NOT "Savior of some men, specially those who believe" for that would be redundantly nonsensical.
There is some things you will never understand. One of those may very well be how God reconciles free will with His infinite foreknowledge. The closest I have seen make this attempt at understanding it is OSAS Molinism.
so we must admit God has been good to us when he saved us, and that we didnt earn it.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
I think only requirement for salvation is Faith.
God draws everyone but sadly man "draw back unto perdition" (Heb. 10.39) and come close to the door of salvation but turn back (2 Pet. 2.21).
The requirement for salvation is a genuine coming to the cross by faith IN THE CORRECT JESUS for Jesus said unless you believe who I say I am you will die in your sins and He will deny you before the Father in heaven. Faith in a false Christ doesn't count. You worship a false Christ.
Faith is not by assuming you were irresistibly selected. That's obnoxious. That will never do; it lacks a genuine coming to the cross to be regenerated. God is interested in a genuine relationship not the pompous attitude you hold of assuming you were selected. People are turned off by you with that attitude as they should be. You carry it wherever you go and it draws people away from you. The same condition will be exhibited in Hell. What a lonely way to be.
Actually God did choose us and We did not, choose him.
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Actually you misread this verse. God does the saving. Hence, He chose me. But there is a condition which is coming to God with an honest heart. So God creates His design, puts down the rules and laws of the system, and woos by His Spirit so God chooses those in His design He foreordained through the conduit of foreknowing our free choice. See He designed it this way, He made us sovereign free willed beings, so this is how He chooses His elect, and as I look back upon the fact that I was regenerated, I know that I have been chosen by God before the foundations of the world. If you say you were irresistibly selected then you entered into a false salvation, but if you, upon recalling, your regeneration, see that in fact you came to God with an honest heart having had the free choice to do so, you would realize this is why God gave grace upon grace because you fulfilled the condition for His working. It's a beautiful albeit complicated process. Certainly not as boring and dull as Calvinists would have you believe by being robotically selected mindlessly.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Calvinists live by works because they don't know if they are saved or not since it was not their choice, so they work for it, they persevere for it, whereas Christians we don't persevere to keep saved, but we are preserved in the faith as God promises to those who want to be preserved by giving our lives to the correct Jesus who keeps us. He never breaks His promise.
How can you prove that God chosed us because we did something or that he before knew our will?
I dont think you can....
You don't have to actually prove God's infinite foreknowledge is compatible with free will; all you need to do is realize it in your own personal experience our free will is real and accept the word of God for what it says that God is the "Savior of all men, specially those who believe" (1 Tim. 4.10) NOT "Savior of some men, specially those who believe" for that would be redundantly nonsensical.
There is some things you will never understand. One of those may very well be how God reconciles free will with His infinite foreknowledge. The closest I have seen make this attempt at understanding it is OSAS Molinism.
so we must admit God has been good to us when he saved us, and that we didnt earn it.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
I think only requirement for salvation is Faith.
God draws everyone but sadly man "draw back unto perdition" (Heb. 10.39) and come close to the door of salvation but turn back (2 Pet. 2.21).
The requirement for salvation is a genuine coming to the cross by faith IN THE CORRECT JESUS for Jesus said unless you believe who I say I am you will die in your sins and He will deny you before the Father in heaven. Faith in a false Christ doesn't count. You worship a false Christ.
Faith is not by assuming you were irresistibly selected. That's obnoxious. That will never do; it lacks a genuine coming to the cross to be regenerated. God is interested in a genuine relationship not the pompous attitude you hold of assuming you were selected. People are turned off by you with that attitude as they should be. You carry it wherever you go and it draws people away from you. The same condition will be exhibited in Hell. What a lonely way to be.