Finestwheat
07-16-2011, 03:19 PM
Re: cman77 @ talkjesus.com
cman77's response to the 6 major sins of Calvinism (http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?3441-6-Major-Sins-of-Calvinism).
Okay first off I would like to say that I would never question a persons salvation based on whether or not they are a Calvinist.
1) What Calvinist have you ever met that said you don't have to repent and trust in Christ to be saved? And further more, what Calvinist have you ever met that thought Total Depravity was an excuse for unbelief and sin? When did it become a selfish doctrine to say "I was dead in my sin Lord, unable to save myself. You and You alone saved me."
Yes Calvinists believe that you must repent and trust in Christ to be saved but what they don't tell you is that in order to repent and trust in Christ to be saved you must be irresistibly regenerated. This is false and lacks genuineness for true salvation. They pridefully assume they were irresistibly selected and others are sent to Hell without sufficient grace to have the choice for no other reason than they were born into sin. What love is that?
A Calvinist doesn't say Total Depravity is an excuse for unbelief in sin, but rather the Calvinist erects this idol to, in fact, not repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated because Total Depravity says you can't unless you are irresistibly regenerated. What you think is not the same as what actually is. To assume one is irresistibly regenerated is obnoxious. It is not a selfish doctrine to say, "I was dead in my sin Lord, unable to save myself," but if what you really mean is that God irresistibly selected you and there was nothing you could do about then that is clearly selfish. That's a lie.
2) What are the wages of sin? Death is the wages of sin. Whether you believe in the doctrine of Original Sin or not, you cannot deny that everyone has sinned in this life. Whether its our fault or not, we are sinners; All of us. That being the case, we are open to the justice of the law of God. So if God decides to be merciful and grant repentance to a sinner like me, how can that be seen as an evil act? As for those who die in their sins and are justly punished by God, what wrong has God done them. What charge will you bring against God?
I believe in original sin. God supplies sufficient grace and mercy to all, giving us the free-choice, otherwise God would be evil if He did not. Be honest with people, because what you are really saying when you claim God "grant you repentance" is that He irresistibly regenerated you and there was no way you could resist it. This is imaginary, not real and not genuinely coming to the cross as a helpless sinner to be regenerated. The One True God provides sufficient grace to all to have the choice. This is something your god can't do. So God trumps your god every time. A person does not deserve to got to Hell just because they were born into sin, but they do deserve to go to Hell if they reject God's saving solution. Just think, if it is evil for us to behave the way your god does towards fellow man then it is evil for your god for how can God's standards be below our own? Two children playing in quicksand, you should not yank one out and leave the other to perish; rather you should plead with them both to come out and extend an arm out to both as well and give each of them the ability to be able to freely respond to that extended arm. This is something your god can't do because he is not God. You worship a god of dull robots. Surely God can do better than that.
"What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory"- Romans 9:14-23
God has mercy upon whom He has mercy and compassion upon whom He has compassion. His ways are above our ways. This mercy and compassion extend far and beyond the common grace which is sufficient grace we all share as Romans 1.20 says we are all without excuse. To be without excuse demands you have the sufficient grace to have the choice otherwise you could not be guilty of rejecting God's only begotten Son. God is the one in control; salvation is not by works. The Pharaoh's first active instance of rejecting God was his own doing. God did not make the Pharaoh hostile, but that was the Pharaoh's own choosing. Once his decision was sealed God hardened his heart further as he hardens Calvinists' hearts further. Why do you find fault with God when God doesn't save you the way you want to be saved? Who can resist His will? How can you say to the molder you were irresistibl selected and will not accept Him unless He irresistibly selects you, not giving you the choice? God is not the god of robots or of easy-believism, but He is relationship and wants to enter into a relationship with you, so He provides you with sufficient grace to have the choice, and thereby you can freely obtain the gift of repentance and faith if you were willing. Only then God will regenerated, not before.
3) Wow! This point is almost laughable. I know from personal experience that I wanted nothing to do with God before I was regenerated. Does this mean I did not have a choice? No it does not. You have to be careful not to eqaute Free Will with Choice. Every man has the Choice put in front of him to obey the Gospel or to reject it. We don't, however have the Will to obey the Gospel because we are dead in sin. This changes when God regenerates us. Repentance, Faith, and Obiediance is the result of regeneration; Not the other way around. Yes, God does force regeneration on those he loves, and how thankful I am that He forced it on me. If He hadn't, I would still be a lost sinner.
You were never regenerated. Why? Because you refused to employ your free-choice to receive Jesus as He truly is. Dead in sin doesn't mean you don't have free-choice, but that you have lost communication with God. You're still made in His image to have the free-choice. How else can God supply the gospel and plead with people if they don't have the free-choice. A dead person can't reject God either, so your analogy of being dead does not work. We have the will to receive the gospel because God has given us sufficient grace to be able to do so even though we are dead in sin. Total depravity is a heresy, an idol. It is an idol that you erect that causes you to assume you were irresistibly selected, but such pride will never do. This is not genuinely coming to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive the Lord Jesus Savior to be regenerated. Hence, you remain an unregenerate. Nowhere in the Scriptures can we find even one verse where God regenerates us to cause us to receive initial salvation. Initial salvation is regeneration and to be regenerated you would need to freely obtain the gift of repentance and faith by coming to God with an honest heart, something you are yet unwilling to do. Repentance and faith by the grace of God can regenerate a person. We are saved by grace through faith. And once saved one can receive increased repentance and faith, and obedience. God never imposes Himself on anyone. He is not an evil tyrant, nor is He the god of robots who can only irresistibly impose regeneration. He can do far better than that. The evil spirit masquerades himself as an angel of light imposing himself on people, producing a facsimile of God's grace claiming this is love. It's really Satanic grace. You accepted this evil spirit in you upon a false regeneration, because you were too selfish to give up control of self to come to the cross sincerely to be regenerated, so you remain as unsaved as you always were. In fact, your condition is even worse and farther away from God the deeper you go into Calvinism (2 Pet. 2.1).
4) There is no secret. As far as God declaring openly that He wishes everyone to be saved, I would think one of your main proof texts would be:
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." -1 Peter 3:9
If we were to take this verse using your interpretation it would be in direct contradiction to the passage from Romans I qouted above. But to correctly interpret this verse we have to understand what is meant by the words any and all. To do this we must ask ourselves who Paul is writing to.
"Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ" -2 Peter 1:1
This is the group that any and all refer to. I am not aware of any other verse where God openly declares He wants to save everyone. If there is then you can point it out to me.
"To those who who have obtained" is by those who have obtained, a free gift, that any can freely obtain. Hence, God is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." He is the "Savior of all men, specially those who believe" (1 Tim. 4.10) NOT "Savior of of some men, specially those who believe" for that is redundantly nonsensical.
Your god is evil because he doesn't want all to be saved. What love is that? If two individuals are drowning off a boat and you stand there and want to save one but not the other shows what a sick soul you are.
5) You have got this so backwards its not even funny. God is the one who makes them able to respond. We are the ones, through our sin, who make ourselves unable to respond. The preaching of the Gospel is the tool which God uses to bring souls to repentance. The Holy Spirit works through the preaching of the Gospel to regenerate the spiritually dead. And unless you have some way of knowing who God has chosen, I suggest we continue to preach the Gospel in order to seek those whose names God has written in the Book of Life.
You wouldn't exist if God didn't create you. Therefore, you would not be able to choose Christ if God didn't create you and give you sufficient grace to have the choice. God doesn't make you do anything. You are a sovereign free-willed being. Satan tries to make you do things working from the outer. God works from the inner spirit with His Spirit. The Gospel is not some robotic tool. The gospel is offered to the whole world and all things sum up in Christ. It is wrong to give people false hope when according to your faith they could never receive the gospel they are preached to. This makes it all a charade, a facade, pretentious and insincere, exactly how Calvinists come across reflecting their false faith. A loving God extends His arm out to everyone. Your god is impotent to be able to do so. That's how I know you worship Satan's counterfeit. Why seek those who are written in the book when you admit you can't know who they are and when they would be irresistibly saved anyway? You're not making sense. This is how your conscience becomes degraded further for all is of God and man has no free will to respond. Such an attitude dulls one's conscience to realize it doesn't matter what you do, it is going to happen anyway. This mentality cannot but have negative effects on your life.
6) You said "The god of Calvinism you allege could save all but doesn't" Does this mean you are suggesting that God doesn't save all because he can't?
Whether your god could or could not save all by irresistibly imposing regeneration on all is not the point, but if he could he should. The point is if he could he should since it is wrong to send people to Hell for no other reason than they were born into sin. Just as it is wrong to send the Jews to the gas chambers for no other reason they were born Jews. That is not in keeping with His holy and righteous nature. The reality is your god can't save anyone since salvation is not by irresistibly imposing regeneration on anyone; that's all your god can do is allegedly irresistibly impose regeneration. Pathetic! A person made to do something against his will is of the same opinion still. You can take that to bank.
I would appreciate a response to each of these points. Please try to understand that I am not writing this based off some blind faith in doctrines written by some french theologian. I am writting this because my personal experience with The Lord Jesus Christ has shown me that I was dead in my sin, the Father chose me, Jesus atoned for my sin, the Holy Spirit gave me new birth from above, and all of this was done without my choosing it and without my permission.
Soli Deo Gloria
As you requested I have responded to each of your points. You are writing based on your false faith, not of Christ. The experience you describe is not my experience and what the word of God says. God never irresistibly imposed regeneration on anyone. Satan claims to do so though. I recognize my condition before I was unsaved searching God out with an honest heart-only then did I repent and believe in Him to be regenerated. You admit you did not repent and believe in Him to be regenerated, so I take you on your word that you did not so you remain an unregenerate. What you call "dead in sin" you have turned into Total depravity (a legalism), but nowhere in the Bible does God say you are Totally depraved. God says you are fallen from grace, but you are still made in His image with all your faculties, including the ability to help an old lady across the street as well as come to the cross as a helpless sinner to be regenerated.
I am writing this to you to show you that you worship a false Christ so that you can give your life to Christ for real for the first time in your life. What a glorious moment that would be to finally receive eternal life! This is my desire for you and God's desire for you. The Father as it stands has not chosen you, because you have not chosen Him. Jesus atoned for your sins but you reject His ransom by dying on the cross for the sins of the whole world. So what you call the Holy Spirit the Bible calls the evil spirit, masquerading as God. You admit of yourself it was "without my choosing and without permission." At least admit you reject the God who gives you the permission and the free-choice. Begin to be honest with yourself right there and recognize this is why the Bible says you are unsaved, because no such teaching you proclaim is found in God's word. Let us stay with what is supported and not insert into the text that which is not there. This takes humility, lowliness of heart, and a contrite spirit.“Jehovah is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart, and saveth such as are o f a contrite spirit” (Ps. 34.18 ASV). “For thus says the high and lofty One who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: I dwell in the high and holy place, and also with him who is of a contrite and humble spirit” (Is. 57.15).
cman77's response to the 6 major sins of Calvinism (http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?3441-6-Major-Sins-of-Calvinism).
Okay first off I would like to say that I would never question a persons salvation based on whether or not they are a Calvinist.
1) What Calvinist have you ever met that said you don't have to repent and trust in Christ to be saved? And further more, what Calvinist have you ever met that thought Total Depravity was an excuse for unbelief and sin? When did it become a selfish doctrine to say "I was dead in my sin Lord, unable to save myself. You and You alone saved me."
Yes Calvinists believe that you must repent and trust in Christ to be saved but what they don't tell you is that in order to repent and trust in Christ to be saved you must be irresistibly regenerated. This is false and lacks genuineness for true salvation. They pridefully assume they were irresistibly selected and others are sent to Hell without sufficient grace to have the choice for no other reason than they were born into sin. What love is that?
A Calvinist doesn't say Total Depravity is an excuse for unbelief in sin, but rather the Calvinist erects this idol to, in fact, not repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated because Total Depravity says you can't unless you are irresistibly regenerated. What you think is not the same as what actually is. To assume one is irresistibly regenerated is obnoxious. It is not a selfish doctrine to say, "I was dead in my sin Lord, unable to save myself," but if what you really mean is that God irresistibly selected you and there was nothing you could do about then that is clearly selfish. That's a lie.
2) What are the wages of sin? Death is the wages of sin. Whether you believe in the doctrine of Original Sin or not, you cannot deny that everyone has sinned in this life. Whether its our fault or not, we are sinners; All of us. That being the case, we are open to the justice of the law of God. So if God decides to be merciful and grant repentance to a sinner like me, how can that be seen as an evil act? As for those who die in their sins and are justly punished by God, what wrong has God done them. What charge will you bring against God?
I believe in original sin. God supplies sufficient grace and mercy to all, giving us the free-choice, otherwise God would be evil if He did not. Be honest with people, because what you are really saying when you claim God "grant you repentance" is that He irresistibly regenerated you and there was no way you could resist it. This is imaginary, not real and not genuinely coming to the cross as a helpless sinner to be regenerated. The One True God provides sufficient grace to all to have the choice. This is something your god can't do. So God trumps your god every time. A person does not deserve to got to Hell just because they were born into sin, but they do deserve to go to Hell if they reject God's saving solution. Just think, if it is evil for us to behave the way your god does towards fellow man then it is evil for your god for how can God's standards be below our own? Two children playing in quicksand, you should not yank one out and leave the other to perish; rather you should plead with them both to come out and extend an arm out to both as well and give each of them the ability to be able to freely respond to that extended arm. This is something your god can't do because he is not God. You worship a god of dull robots. Surely God can do better than that.
"What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory"- Romans 9:14-23
God has mercy upon whom He has mercy and compassion upon whom He has compassion. His ways are above our ways. This mercy and compassion extend far and beyond the common grace which is sufficient grace we all share as Romans 1.20 says we are all without excuse. To be without excuse demands you have the sufficient grace to have the choice otherwise you could not be guilty of rejecting God's only begotten Son. God is the one in control; salvation is not by works. The Pharaoh's first active instance of rejecting God was his own doing. God did not make the Pharaoh hostile, but that was the Pharaoh's own choosing. Once his decision was sealed God hardened his heart further as he hardens Calvinists' hearts further. Why do you find fault with God when God doesn't save you the way you want to be saved? Who can resist His will? How can you say to the molder you were irresistibl selected and will not accept Him unless He irresistibly selects you, not giving you the choice? God is not the god of robots or of easy-believism, but He is relationship and wants to enter into a relationship with you, so He provides you with sufficient grace to have the choice, and thereby you can freely obtain the gift of repentance and faith if you were willing. Only then God will regenerated, not before.
3) Wow! This point is almost laughable. I know from personal experience that I wanted nothing to do with God before I was regenerated. Does this mean I did not have a choice? No it does not. You have to be careful not to eqaute Free Will with Choice. Every man has the Choice put in front of him to obey the Gospel or to reject it. We don't, however have the Will to obey the Gospel because we are dead in sin. This changes when God regenerates us. Repentance, Faith, and Obiediance is the result of regeneration; Not the other way around. Yes, God does force regeneration on those he loves, and how thankful I am that He forced it on me. If He hadn't, I would still be a lost sinner.
You were never regenerated. Why? Because you refused to employ your free-choice to receive Jesus as He truly is. Dead in sin doesn't mean you don't have free-choice, but that you have lost communication with God. You're still made in His image to have the free-choice. How else can God supply the gospel and plead with people if they don't have the free-choice. A dead person can't reject God either, so your analogy of being dead does not work. We have the will to receive the gospel because God has given us sufficient grace to be able to do so even though we are dead in sin. Total depravity is a heresy, an idol. It is an idol that you erect that causes you to assume you were irresistibly selected, but such pride will never do. This is not genuinely coming to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive the Lord Jesus Savior to be regenerated. Hence, you remain an unregenerate. Nowhere in the Scriptures can we find even one verse where God regenerates us to cause us to receive initial salvation. Initial salvation is regeneration and to be regenerated you would need to freely obtain the gift of repentance and faith by coming to God with an honest heart, something you are yet unwilling to do. Repentance and faith by the grace of God can regenerate a person. We are saved by grace through faith. And once saved one can receive increased repentance and faith, and obedience. God never imposes Himself on anyone. He is not an evil tyrant, nor is He the god of robots who can only irresistibly impose regeneration. He can do far better than that. The evil spirit masquerades himself as an angel of light imposing himself on people, producing a facsimile of God's grace claiming this is love. It's really Satanic grace. You accepted this evil spirit in you upon a false regeneration, because you were too selfish to give up control of self to come to the cross sincerely to be regenerated, so you remain as unsaved as you always were. In fact, your condition is even worse and farther away from God the deeper you go into Calvinism (2 Pet. 2.1).
4) There is no secret. As far as God declaring openly that He wishes everyone to be saved, I would think one of your main proof texts would be:
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." -1 Peter 3:9
If we were to take this verse using your interpretation it would be in direct contradiction to the passage from Romans I qouted above. But to correctly interpret this verse we have to understand what is meant by the words any and all. To do this we must ask ourselves who Paul is writing to.
"Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ" -2 Peter 1:1
This is the group that any and all refer to. I am not aware of any other verse where God openly declares He wants to save everyone. If there is then you can point it out to me.
"To those who who have obtained" is by those who have obtained, a free gift, that any can freely obtain. Hence, God is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." He is the "Savior of all men, specially those who believe" (1 Tim. 4.10) NOT "Savior of of some men, specially those who believe" for that is redundantly nonsensical.
Your god is evil because he doesn't want all to be saved. What love is that? If two individuals are drowning off a boat and you stand there and want to save one but not the other shows what a sick soul you are.
5) You have got this so backwards its not even funny. God is the one who makes them able to respond. We are the ones, through our sin, who make ourselves unable to respond. The preaching of the Gospel is the tool which God uses to bring souls to repentance. The Holy Spirit works through the preaching of the Gospel to regenerate the spiritually dead. And unless you have some way of knowing who God has chosen, I suggest we continue to preach the Gospel in order to seek those whose names God has written in the Book of Life.
You wouldn't exist if God didn't create you. Therefore, you would not be able to choose Christ if God didn't create you and give you sufficient grace to have the choice. God doesn't make you do anything. You are a sovereign free-willed being. Satan tries to make you do things working from the outer. God works from the inner spirit with His Spirit. The Gospel is not some robotic tool. The gospel is offered to the whole world and all things sum up in Christ. It is wrong to give people false hope when according to your faith they could never receive the gospel they are preached to. This makes it all a charade, a facade, pretentious and insincere, exactly how Calvinists come across reflecting their false faith. A loving God extends His arm out to everyone. Your god is impotent to be able to do so. That's how I know you worship Satan's counterfeit. Why seek those who are written in the book when you admit you can't know who they are and when they would be irresistibly saved anyway? You're not making sense. This is how your conscience becomes degraded further for all is of God and man has no free will to respond. Such an attitude dulls one's conscience to realize it doesn't matter what you do, it is going to happen anyway. This mentality cannot but have negative effects on your life.
6) You said "The god of Calvinism you allege could save all but doesn't" Does this mean you are suggesting that God doesn't save all because he can't?
Whether your god could or could not save all by irresistibly imposing regeneration on all is not the point, but if he could he should. The point is if he could he should since it is wrong to send people to Hell for no other reason than they were born into sin. Just as it is wrong to send the Jews to the gas chambers for no other reason they were born Jews. That is not in keeping with His holy and righteous nature. The reality is your god can't save anyone since salvation is not by irresistibly imposing regeneration on anyone; that's all your god can do is allegedly irresistibly impose regeneration. Pathetic! A person made to do something against his will is of the same opinion still. You can take that to bank.
I would appreciate a response to each of these points. Please try to understand that I am not writing this based off some blind faith in doctrines written by some french theologian. I am writting this because my personal experience with The Lord Jesus Christ has shown me that I was dead in my sin, the Father chose me, Jesus atoned for my sin, the Holy Spirit gave me new birth from above, and all of this was done without my choosing it and without my permission.
Soli Deo Gloria
As you requested I have responded to each of your points. You are writing based on your false faith, not of Christ. The experience you describe is not my experience and what the word of God says. God never irresistibly imposed regeneration on anyone. Satan claims to do so though. I recognize my condition before I was unsaved searching God out with an honest heart-only then did I repent and believe in Him to be regenerated. You admit you did not repent and believe in Him to be regenerated, so I take you on your word that you did not so you remain an unregenerate. What you call "dead in sin" you have turned into Total depravity (a legalism), but nowhere in the Bible does God say you are Totally depraved. God says you are fallen from grace, but you are still made in His image with all your faculties, including the ability to help an old lady across the street as well as come to the cross as a helpless sinner to be regenerated.
I am writing this to you to show you that you worship a false Christ so that you can give your life to Christ for real for the first time in your life. What a glorious moment that would be to finally receive eternal life! This is my desire for you and God's desire for you. The Father as it stands has not chosen you, because you have not chosen Him. Jesus atoned for your sins but you reject His ransom by dying on the cross for the sins of the whole world. So what you call the Holy Spirit the Bible calls the evil spirit, masquerading as God. You admit of yourself it was "without my choosing and without permission." At least admit you reject the God who gives you the permission and the free-choice. Begin to be honest with yourself right there and recognize this is why the Bible says you are unsaved, because no such teaching you proclaim is found in God's word. Let us stay with what is supported and not insert into the text that which is not there. This takes humility, lowliness of heart, and a contrite spirit.“Jehovah is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart, and saveth such as are o f a contrite spirit” (Ps. 34.18 ASV). “For thus says the high and lofty One who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: I dwell in the high and holy place, and also with him who is of a contrite and humble spirit” (Is. 57.15).