Parture
03-12-2011, 01:24 PM
Re: edwardpf123 @ Youtube
I agree with you that limited atonement is heresy. However, people are in hell now and were so before the Cross. They rejected the gospel as it was presented to them.The saved were not in heaven until after the ascension. They went to Abraham's bosom, because the sins were only covered, not Atoned for.
The first person to go to Hell is the Antichrist. The unsaved, "the rest of the dead, lived not again until the thousand years were finished" (Rev. 20.5) to be sent to Hell. Not even David a man after God's own heart is in Heaven yet, "For David is not ascended into the heavens" (Acts 2.34). Think how strange that would be those "which are alive and left shall be caught up together with them [resting saved] in the clouds" (1 Thess. 4.17) if they are already in Heaven.
You are confusing hell with the Lake of Fire. The rich man is in torments ( a compartment of hell). OT saints were in Abraham's bosom (Lk.16:23-31). Those in Abraham's bosom were taken by Christ to heaven (Eph.4:8-9) after His resurrection. Peter was saying that David did not ascend as Christ did, under his own power, as God, not that David wasn't in heaven. We will meet loved ones in the clouds, they receive their resurrection bodies first (1Thess.4:16).Since David is not in heaven yet, then he is still in Abraham's bosom. There is nothing to support the idea that the torment the Rich Man was in was part of Hell. In fact that place the Rich Man was in which is called "Hades" will be thrown into Hell one day. How can it be thrown into that which already is a part of? (Rev. 20.14) To lead captivity captive is to give us His Holy Spirit, hence giving gifts unto men. Literally Peter said, "David is not ascended into the heavens."
No David is in heaven, with all of the OT saints. Peter says that David didn't ascend, Ascension is to rise on one's own power, as Christ did. That doesn't mean David didn't go to heaven after Christ took him up. Lead captivity captive is to take the OT saints out of Abraham's bosom, that is why it says that Christ ascended and descended (Eph.4)'and preached to the spirits which were in prison' (1Pe.3). The giving of gifts is additional to that.You are giving people resurrected bodies before their appointed time: "I can tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not rise to meet him ahead of those who are in their graves" (1 Thess. 4.15). You place people in heaven and may perform necromancy on them. But God says they are still "in their graves." So you open yourself up to communication with evil spirits masquerading as loved ones.
I didn't say we could communicate with those in heaven, just that they are there. What goes to the grave is the body, the soul/spirit go to be with the Lord and are in heaven. We see that fact in Rev.7:14 tribulational martyrs are in heaven.They receive robes but do not have resurrection bodies. No one has resurrected bodies at this time except Christ. The church receives them at the Rapture.The thing is many people think as a result of this false teaching they can communicate through dreams, visions and so forth with loved ones in Heaven, but God says nobody is in Heaven yet. Verse after verse supports this: "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven" (John 3.13). "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and left shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words" (1 Thess. 4.13-16). I am comforted nobody is in heaven yet and we will be resurrected together. Sounds fair don't you think?
The soul and spirit need a body, so your soul and spirit can't go to the Lord while leaving your body behind. We are tripartite beings. They always go together. Those who are martyred during the Tribulation like the Two Witnesses are resurrected and raptured 3.5 days after they go to rest. The Tribulation hasn't started yet. Those who were martyred in the past 20 centuries will be resurrected and raptured at the first trumpet "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) before the Tribulation starts and its 7 trumpets (8.7ff). Rev. 7.14 takes place after the 5th Seal martyrs and after the first rapture (7.9), not before; that is to say, only once the first rapture begins do the resurrections and raptures commence of the martyrs the past 20 centuries. It is so much about Daniel's last week. The rest of those who died in Christ will be resurrected at the last trumpet (11.15) before the bowls of wrath are poured out.
Nobody can come before the high priest naked. This is the clothed new body. "For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake [....] Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you [....] For which cause we faint not [...] While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life" (2 Cor. 4.7-5.4). We can't come up before the high priest naked. "For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep" (1 Cor. 11.30).
I agree with you that limited atonement is heresy. However, people are in hell now and were so before the Cross. They rejected the gospel as it was presented to them.The saved were not in heaven until after the ascension. They went to Abraham's bosom, because the sins were only covered, not Atoned for.
The first person to go to Hell is the Antichrist. The unsaved, "the rest of the dead, lived not again until the thousand years were finished" (Rev. 20.5) to be sent to Hell. Not even David a man after God's own heart is in Heaven yet, "For David is not ascended into the heavens" (Acts 2.34). Think how strange that would be those "which are alive and left shall be caught up together with them [resting saved] in the clouds" (1 Thess. 4.17) if they are already in Heaven.
You are confusing hell with the Lake of Fire. The rich man is in torments ( a compartment of hell). OT saints were in Abraham's bosom (Lk.16:23-31). Those in Abraham's bosom were taken by Christ to heaven (Eph.4:8-9) after His resurrection. Peter was saying that David did not ascend as Christ did, under his own power, as God, not that David wasn't in heaven. We will meet loved ones in the clouds, they receive their resurrection bodies first (1Thess.4:16).Since David is not in heaven yet, then he is still in Abraham's bosom. There is nothing to support the idea that the torment the Rich Man was in was part of Hell. In fact that place the Rich Man was in which is called "Hades" will be thrown into Hell one day. How can it be thrown into that which already is a part of? (Rev. 20.14) To lead captivity captive is to give us His Holy Spirit, hence giving gifts unto men. Literally Peter said, "David is not ascended into the heavens."
No David is in heaven, with all of the OT saints. Peter says that David didn't ascend, Ascension is to rise on one's own power, as Christ did. That doesn't mean David didn't go to heaven after Christ took him up. Lead captivity captive is to take the OT saints out of Abraham's bosom, that is why it says that Christ ascended and descended (Eph.4)'and preached to the spirits which were in prison' (1Pe.3). The giving of gifts is additional to that.You are giving people resurrected bodies before their appointed time: "I can tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not rise to meet him ahead of those who are in their graves" (1 Thess. 4.15). You place people in heaven and may perform necromancy on them. But God says they are still "in their graves." So you open yourself up to communication with evil spirits masquerading as loved ones.
I didn't say we could communicate with those in heaven, just that they are there. What goes to the grave is the body, the soul/spirit go to be with the Lord and are in heaven. We see that fact in Rev.7:14 tribulational martyrs are in heaven.They receive robes but do not have resurrection bodies. No one has resurrected bodies at this time except Christ. The church receives them at the Rapture.The thing is many people think as a result of this false teaching they can communicate through dreams, visions and so forth with loved ones in Heaven, but God says nobody is in Heaven yet. Verse after verse supports this: "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven" (John 3.13). "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and left shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words" (1 Thess. 4.13-16). I am comforted nobody is in heaven yet and we will be resurrected together. Sounds fair don't you think?
The soul and spirit need a body, so your soul and spirit can't go to the Lord while leaving your body behind. We are tripartite beings. They always go together. Those who are martyred during the Tribulation like the Two Witnesses are resurrected and raptured 3.5 days after they go to rest. The Tribulation hasn't started yet. Those who were martyred in the past 20 centuries will be resurrected and raptured at the first trumpet "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) before the Tribulation starts and its 7 trumpets (8.7ff). Rev. 7.14 takes place after the 5th Seal martyrs and after the first rapture (7.9), not before; that is to say, only once the first rapture begins do the resurrections and raptures commence of the martyrs the past 20 centuries. It is so much about Daniel's last week. The rest of those who died in Christ will be resurrected at the last trumpet (11.15) before the bowls of wrath are poured out.
Nobody can come before the high priest naked. This is the clothed new body. "For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake [....] Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you [....] For which cause we faint not [...] While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life" (2 Cor. 4.7-5.4). We can't come up before the high priest naked. "For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep" (1 Cor. 11.30).