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View Full Version : Prevenient Grace is Way Better than Irresistible Grace



Scriptur
01-23-2011, 02:42 PM
I am not going to use the Scriptures here because Calvinists will just insert whatever they want into any verse, so providing Scripture will not help the Calvinist usually as they have already made up their mind. Instead I would like to try another approach. It's clear we can't prevent the Calvinist from seeing their mistaken assumption of inserting instead of not assuming anything, so let's try another approach to lead the Calvinist to Christ (almost all Calvinists are unsaved and going to Hell but a few may one day have a change of mind). Nor will I appeal to the conscience of a Calvinist because it is seared as hard as the Pharaoh's.

Prevenient grace refers to God's grace being sufficient for everyone to have the choice. Even though Adam fell and everyone is born into sin, by the age of accountability they have been given sufficient grace to be able to freely respond to the gospel message. Even those who have never heard of the gospel of salvation in Christ likewise have received sufficient common grace that ultimately becomes summed up in Christ to accept Christ if presented the word of God.

Because God's grace is abundant and the precious blood of Christ atones for sins, the salvation of the cross by the Holy Spirit is perfect.

Recall I said I would not appeal to Scripture because the Calvinist will just insert whatever and nor will I appeal to their conscience because it is cold as stone. Instead let us try appealing to pure logic alone!

God has infinite foreknowledge that we agree, but if God can provide sufficient grace to everyone to have the choice then that would be better than having to irresistibly regenerate someone without given them the choice since God is relational. Therefore, God decrees (provisions) by foreknowing all available choices and our free-choice because God exists outside of time, e.g. Jesus was not always a man as Matt Slick thinks. And a person doesn't go to Hell simply because they were born into sin, e.g. Matt Slick believes they do.

The Calvinist gets troubled in his head because he wants to know why one person chooses one way and another chooses another. That is the nature of free will to have the choice. The mechanism by which God gives us this ability may never be understood like there are many things God knows that we might never know such as how God reconciles His infinite foreknowledge with free will. If I were to appeal to your conscience I would simply say this is the beginning of humility to humbly accept this fact.

But because the Calvinist does not get an answer from God they create the cult of Calvinism that answers that question immorally; hence, they enter into a counterfeit salvation from a false Christ. This is why Calvinists are going to Hell, for they do not genuinely receive the Lord Jesus as Savior having replaced Him with another. They reject the God of prevenient grace.

My prayer is maybe in some small measure, not necessarily immediately but over time, these words will help lead the Calvinist to Christ. Thank you Jesus! Amen.

Scriptur
01-23-2011, 03:48 PM
Re: Theo1698 - CARM


That is the major error for those who attack the Biblical gospel as described by Calvinism. When you move away from Scripture, that's an admission to a failed argument.
You have moved away from Scripture so that is why one can't use Scripture to help you since you reject all Scripture for you to have a change of mind.


you just denied "free will".
What I said agrees with free will because I can't force you to reject your insertions.


I wasn't aware that God had resigned His role of judge and given you His job.
You might want to do some introspection regarding your presumptions.
God didn't resign. He told me you are not saved. Am I to reject God's word to me by His Spirit?


Too bad it isn't Biblical.
At least we establish you reject the God who provides sufficient grace to all to have the choice (prevenient grace) and thus, you are going to Hell.


"Age of accountability", huh? Another unBiblical teaching.
Surely a baby has not had free will established fully yet to have the choice. Sending babies to Hell is sick.


"Better" according to what standard?
See this is what I didn't want to respond to because it requires appealing to your conscience but your conscience is dead. Sufficient grace is better because it is better for us, for example, to ask the opposite sex to have sex rather than raping them. As you might know James White favors a god that rapes women by decree.


UnBiblical. But that's right, you don't like the Bible, you keep saying so.
I am sad to hear you reject the God who exists outside of time. Matt Slick also rejects the same God since he thinks Jesus was always a man even before time began. Crazy.


Why are you so obsessed with Matt Slick?
It's better to go after the leaders here rather than the leader's pawns, no need to be obsessed about it or obsessively avoid.


"Free will" is unBiblical. Maybe that's why you don't want a Biblical discussion?
The Bible uses the phrase "free will". Even when the Bible uses the word "free will" you can insert how free will is not free will. Like I said going to the Bible will never help someone who has already made up their mind what they want to worship. I bring out God's word when there is a glimmer of hope. So after a post or two here I should kick the dust under my feet.


Well, if I'm going to hell, that's got to at least be better than continuing to listen to your insults. Welcome to my "ignore" file.
You are not really accusing me of insulting but you are being like Satan accusing God since the God of sufficient grace says you won't be saved if you don't accept Him as He is.

Re: WildWilly - CARM


But what if they are not presented the Word of God? What does your prevenient grace do for them then except make them more responsible?
Yes of course. Amen. It would have been better you never even knew about Jesus (2 Peter. 2:21) considering your condition now. Your experience in Hell will be worse than otherwise.


Didn't God foresee this would happen? Why, if God foresaw they would never hear the gospel, did He then give them something that made them more responsible?
You can't blame God for giving more grace that is even above sufficient grace. And you can't blame God for creating you knowing no matter how much grace He would give you you will always reject him as a Calvinist.

God will never prevent the creation of someone who would be saved on account of someone such as yourself who is to be created and who will go to Hell as God foreknew you would eternally reject Him.

Copo
08-23-2012, 02:14 PM
"I'm not going to use scripture"

Youre arguments are therefore invalid, as your word is fallible

"Gods grace is good for anyone"

Who is willing to be saved, we call this common grace. Unfortunately the only people who are willing to be saved are those who God wills to be saved because a bad tree cannot bear bad fruit.

Your misinformed view of reformed theology has warped your world view to one that views man as the initiator of a covenant, rather than God.

Scriptur
08-23-2012, 05:03 PM
"I'm not going to use scripture"
You misunderstood not quoting the rest. It wasn't an exclusive effort not to use Scripture, just another approach.


Youre arguments are therefore invalid, as your word is fallible
It's just another approach since you don't respond to when shown how you insert into the text that which is not explicitly stated.


"Gods grace is good for anyone"

Who is willing to be saved, we call this common grace. Unfortunately the only people who are willing to be saved are those who God wills to be saved because a bad tree cannot bear bad fruit.
You're a bad tree that cannot bear fruit since you are unwilling to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated.


Your misinformed view of reformed theology has warped your world view to one that views man as the initiator of a covenant, rather than God.
I am glad you weren't able to show any misinformed view. You're confusing the Reformation of "justification by faith" with Calvinism. Calvinism is not justification by faith, but justification by pridefully assuming oneself irresistibly selected. It's a lie - a selfish salvation.

Don't sin bearing false witness. God is the initiator of the Covenant to save the elect. Thus, He provides sufficient grace to all to have the free choice to save whosoever is willing. Your god sucks, he can't do this what God can do.

Praise the Lord!

p.s. I think that is a doublestandard to accuse of not using Scripture when you don't. It's also wrong to accuse of God not being the initiator when you initiated the idea you were irresistibly selected. Do you think you are God? You're certainly acting like it.