Parture
01-04-2011, 02:48 PM
Re: oldno74
Limited Atonement-Matt 1:21 "for he will save his people from their sins.” Notice "his people". The atonement does not cover everyone, only the people that God gives to his Son, "his people". Another one: [24] “Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and WILL NOT be able. (Luke 13:24 ESV) The atonement doesn't cover the sins of those not able to enter. Pay up!
Who are His people? Since everyone has received sufficient grace from God who "made known his power, has endured much patience" (Rom. 9.22) and thus gives us the choice, then it is those who received Christ He saves from their sins. Distinguish between His people looking back upon our salvation from your alteration of Scripture of irresistible salvation and preterition. The atonement covers everyone for God is the "Savior of all men, specially those who believe" (1 Tim. 4.10). Amen.
You're misreading Luke 13.24. This verse is speaking just to Christians. The narrow gate speaks of the narrow way of the new law of the gospel. Other Christians may enter in by the wide gate. The path can only be narrow if you enter the narrow gate; whereas other Christians enter by the wide gate and thus walk a wide path. The path is outward conduct, the gate speaks of the innerman. Why are carnal Christians unable? Because they have chosen to remain fleshly, tied down to the world, so though they won't lose eternal life, they will lose rewards to reign in the millennial kingdom.
Even if one were to read Luke 13.24 your way, one would need to ask the question why they are unable? Obviously, since so much Scripture teaches the sufficiency of God's grace for all, therefore, the reason they are unable to enter is because they refuse God's saving grace. Calvinists refuse God's saving grace, so according to your way of reading this verse you are going to Hell.
I'm not reading it wrong. Tell me since you know who is going to Hell (you must have insight into the Book of Life), how does a person refuse God's saving grace?? If God wants to gift it to someone, there is no refusing. [15] But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, [16] was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; (Galatians 1:15-16 ESV)I can't say I know everyone who is going to be saved or not saved. All I can say right now is you are not saved because Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the whole world whom you reject since you worship a false Christ who did not die on the cross for the sins of the whole world. A gift is something that can be refused. If you gave me a gift of something that I don't want, I have a right to refuse it.
Don't shut your mind down how someone is set apart. God sets me apart because He foreknew my free choice. "I have set before you life and death.... Choose life.... Love the LORD thy God" (Deut. 30.19-20). "If the LORD be God, follow him,; but if Baal, then follow him" (1 Kings 18.21). "Look unto me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth" (Is. 45.22). And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart" (Jer. 29.13).
Jesus is the Savior of all men, Jews and Gentiles alike. If He was the Savior of every human, that would contradict all of Scripture. You make Jesus a failure. Don't get me wrong, He is Lord over all, but He didn't come to shed His blood for the ones perishing. Read John 10 until you get what Jesus is saying. He came for His lost sheep and His sheep hear His voice.Realize you reject God of the Bible because you said if "Jesus is the Savior of all men...that would contradict Scriptures," but 1 Tim 4 says, "God is the Savior of all men, specially those who believe" (v.4). You've just misread God's word. "Savior of all men" means providing sufficient grace to all men to have the choice. Why "specially those who believe"? Because they received what Jesus did for the sins the whole world. Not "Savior of all men in different classes, specially those who believe" for that is nonsensically redundant. That's Calvinism.
God can't be unrighteous, so He will not save people irresistibly. He is the Savior of all men, because He provides sufficient grace to all men. Since God is looking to our choice as true free will for those who want to be with Him, how can God be a failure? God is a failure if He doesn't do this because then he would just be like your god, a god of robots. Jesus shed His blood for the perishing, but sadly they and you refuse it, since instead of coming to the cross as helpless sinners, pridefully you assume you were irresistibly selected. This is called "will-worship" (Col. 2.23), trying to save yourself by the willing yourself into salvation by the "will of man" (John 1.13). Try reading John 10 again, but not from your inserted perspective of worshiping an evil god of irresistible grace and sending people to Hell which is not their fault for being born into sin, but for those who are saved they can look back upon our salvation.
Thus, the Calvinist who "sneaks over the wall of a sheepfold, rather than going through the gate, must surely be a thief and a robber!" (John 10.1). You're trying to counterfeit God's saving grace.
"The thief's purpose is to steal and kill and destroy. My purpose is to give life in all its fullness" (v.10). Reminds you of John Calvin, that murderous protestant pope of Geneva. And Hitler who could not achieved what he did if it weren't for the teachings of Calvinism.
John 10.20 fits you well, "Some of them said, 'He has a demon, or he's crazy. Why listen to a man like that?'" Is this not how you respond when you accuse: "You make Jesus a failure". Christians respond to Calvinists: "Others said, 'This doesn't sound like a man possessed by a demon! Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?'" (v.21)
Observe the sufficient grace of God: "Jesus replied, 'I have already told you, and you don't believe me. The proof is what I do in the name of my Father'". (v.25) "Jesus said, 'At my Father's direction I have done many things to help the people. For which one of these good deeds are you killing me?'" (v.32). Again, we see the sufficient grace of God in Jesus helping people to convince them. "Don't believe me unless I carry out my Father's work" (v.37). Here we see Jesus giving people ample grace to have the choice.
See how Calvinism makes a mockery of God for while Jesus has afforded them the choice, but also judging them if they refuse, the Calvinist says no choice is given. Calvinism is Satanic. The double talk of the Calvinist is that he employs his will pridefully to assume he was irresistibly selected.
"But if I do his work, believe in what I have done, even if you don't believe me. Then you will realize that the Father is in me, and I am in the Father." (v.38). Again, we see people are given ample grace to have the choice. Jesus is pleading with you but you will not listen because you are not one of His. You will go to Hell.
"And many followed him. 'John didn't do miracles,' they remarked to one another, 'but all his predictions about this man have come true.'" (v.41) When God is showing these fulfilled miracles that have come true, this is grace to persuade and convince you in the Son of God. But you will not listen because you are not one of His: "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto yo" (v.26).
Limited Atonement-Matt 1:21 "for he will save his people from their sins.” Notice "his people". The atonement does not cover everyone, only the people that God gives to his Son, "his people". Another one: [24] “Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and WILL NOT be able. (Luke 13:24 ESV) The atonement doesn't cover the sins of those not able to enter. Pay up!
Who are His people? Since everyone has received sufficient grace from God who "made known his power, has endured much patience" (Rom. 9.22) and thus gives us the choice, then it is those who received Christ He saves from their sins. Distinguish between His people looking back upon our salvation from your alteration of Scripture of irresistible salvation and preterition. The atonement covers everyone for God is the "Savior of all men, specially those who believe" (1 Tim. 4.10). Amen.
You're misreading Luke 13.24. This verse is speaking just to Christians. The narrow gate speaks of the narrow way of the new law of the gospel. Other Christians may enter in by the wide gate. The path can only be narrow if you enter the narrow gate; whereas other Christians enter by the wide gate and thus walk a wide path. The path is outward conduct, the gate speaks of the innerman. Why are carnal Christians unable? Because they have chosen to remain fleshly, tied down to the world, so though they won't lose eternal life, they will lose rewards to reign in the millennial kingdom.
Even if one were to read Luke 13.24 your way, one would need to ask the question why they are unable? Obviously, since so much Scripture teaches the sufficiency of God's grace for all, therefore, the reason they are unable to enter is because they refuse God's saving grace. Calvinists refuse God's saving grace, so according to your way of reading this verse you are going to Hell.
I'm not reading it wrong. Tell me since you know who is going to Hell (you must have insight into the Book of Life), how does a person refuse God's saving grace?? If God wants to gift it to someone, there is no refusing. [15] But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, [16] was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; (Galatians 1:15-16 ESV)I can't say I know everyone who is going to be saved or not saved. All I can say right now is you are not saved because Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the whole world whom you reject since you worship a false Christ who did not die on the cross for the sins of the whole world. A gift is something that can be refused. If you gave me a gift of something that I don't want, I have a right to refuse it.
Don't shut your mind down how someone is set apart. God sets me apart because He foreknew my free choice. "I have set before you life and death.... Choose life.... Love the LORD thy God" (Deut. 30.19-20). "If the LORD be God, follow him,; but if Baal, then follow him" (1 Kings 18.21). "Look unto me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth" (Is. 45.22). And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart" (Jer. 29.13).
Jesus is the Savior of all men, Jews and Gentiles alike. If He was the Savior of every human, that would contradict all of Scripture. You make Jesus a failure. Don't get me wrong, He is Lord over all, but He didn't come to shed His blood for the ones perishing. Read John 10 until you get what Jesus is saying. He came for His lost sheep and His sheep hear His voice.Realize you reject God of the Bible because you said if "Jesus is the Savior of all men...that would contradict Scriptures," but 1 Tim 4 says, "God is the Savior of all men, specially those who believe" (v.4). You've just misread God's word. "Savior of all men" means providing sufficient grace to all men to have the choice. Why "specially those who believe"? Because they received what Jesus did for the sins the whole world. Not "Savior of all men in different classes, specially those who believe" for that is nonsensically redundant. That's Calvinism.
God can't be unrighteous, so He will not save people irresistibly. He is the Savior of all men, because He provides sufficient grace to all men. Since God is looking to our choice as true free will for those who want to be with Him, how can God be a failure? God is a failure if He doesn't do this because then he would just be like your god, a god of robots. Jesus shed His blood for the perishing, but sadly they and you refuse it, since instead of coming to the cross as helpless sinners, pridefully you assume you were irresistibly selected. This is called "will-worship" (Col. 2.23), trying to save yourself by the willing yourself into salvation by the "will of man" (John 1.13). Try reading John 10 again, but not from your inserted perspective of worshiping an evil god of irresistible grace and sending people to Hell which is not their fault for being born into sin, but for those who are saved they can look back upon our salvation.
Thus, the Calvinist who "sneaks over the wall of a sheepfold, rather than going through the gate, must surely be a thief and a robber!" (John 10.1). You're trying to counterfeit God's saving grace.
"The thief's purpose is to steal and kill and destroy. My purpose is to give life in all its fullness" (v.10). Reminds you of John Calvin, that murderous protestant pope of Geneva. And Hitler who could not achieved what he did if it weren't for the teachings of Calvinism.
John 10.20 fits you well, "Some of them said, 'He has a demon, or he's crazy. Why listen to a man like that?'" Is this not how you respond when you accuse: "You make Jesus a failure". Christians respond to Calvinists: "Others said, 'This doesn't sound like a man possessed by a demon! Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?'" (v.21)
Observe the sufficient grace of God: "Jesus replied, 'I have already told you, and you don't believe me. The proof is what I do in the name of my Father'". (v.25) "Jesus said, 'At my Father's direction I have done many things to help the people. For which one of these good deeds are you killing me?'" (v.32). Again, we see the sufficient grace of God in Jesus helping people to convince them. "Don't believe me unless I carry out my Father's work" (v.37). Here we see Jesus giving people ample grace to have the choice.
See how Calvinism makes a mockery of God for while Jesus has afforded them the choice, but also judging them if they refuse, the Calvinist says no choice is given. Calvinism is Satanic. The double talk of the Calvinist is that he employs his will pridefully to assume he was irresistibly selected.
"But if I do his work, believe in what I have done, even if you don't believe me. Then you will realize that the Father is in me, and I am in the Father." (v.38). Again, we see people are given ample grace to have the choice. Jesus is pleading with you but you will not listen because you are not one of His. You will go to Hell.
"And many followed him. 'John didn't do miracles,' they remarked to one another, 'but all his predictions about this man have come true.'" (v.41) When God is showing these fulfilled miracles that have come true, this is grace to persuade and convince you in the Son of God. But you will not listen because you are not one of His: "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto yo" (v.26).