God Ordains for the Good of His Elect but Not the Way Calvinists Think

[everstill]

Re: rlhuckle - CARM


In my mind, the only way Christ "saves" the reprobate is by the fact that He has ordained their existence for the good of His elect and does not immediately cast all of them into the lake of fire for the rest of eternity. As such, they enjoy the pleasures of the flesh for a little while.
Nobody is questioning that God ordains salvation to His elect, but given the passage above in Luke 9 or Rev. 3.20, Calvinism is seriously undermined because these passages imply sufficient grace given to us all to be able to respond so that when God ordains salvation to His elect He is not doing so by irresistible grace, but through His sufficient grace He predestinates us by foreknowing our free-choice, for just as God is relational in His 3 Persons, He is relational with us (synergistic) and not monergistic.

Think upon how evil it would be to not provide souls any grace to respond and let them suffer for awhile then throw them into Hell. Not only is that evil but it is also sadistic. As we should not blame others for what is not their fault, nor should you expect God to if He is righteous, holy and true. My prayer is that one day you give your life to Chirst.

"And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" (Luke 9.11-13).

In other words, how can God's standards be less than our own?

[everstill]

God's word says, He is the "Savior of all men, specially those who believe" (1 Tim. 4.10), not "Savior of all men but not from Hell, specially those who believe" nor "Savior of all men in each class or place, specially those who believe." How can God be a Savior of someone but not from Hell for those who believe who obviously don't go to Hell? And why would He save them from everything but Hell under irresistible grace when He could save from Hell also? If it sounds twisted it's because it is! Furthermore, is it not nonsensically redundant to say those who are saved "in each class or place" ... "specially those who believe"? Obviously, those who believe in each place or class are those who believe.

Matt Slick doesn't understand John 1.13: "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." Those who are saved are not born of the blood (procreation), nor of the flesh (passion), nor will of man (by planning), but of God. It is God who does the saving, not our will, and requires our choice to save us. Since God is relational in His Three Persons, He is relational with us. He enjoys our positive response to His sufficient grace bestowed upon us all. Grace is not sufficient if it is irresistible. Salvation is a gift from God and freely obtainable by any of us. "We have also obtained access by faith into this grace" (Rom. 5.2), "for by grace are ye saved through faith" (Eph. 2.8), NOT "saved by faith (irresistible) through grace (irresistible)".

It is resistible grace and a conditional election, for God supplies sufficient grace to all, affording us all with the choice, that's why He pleads with us, calls us to repent, woos us by His Spirit, otherwise it is just a charade and morally bankrupt. This verse has nothing to do with god of Calvinism claiming we don't have a choice and people go to Hell just because they were born into sin with no opportunity, mercy, love or grace to be saved. Are faith and works contrasted as opposites? "By grace are ye saved, through faith;...not of works" (Eph. 2.8-9); "But to him that worketh not, but believeth..." (Rom. 4.5). Therefore, we can come to God in faith and can reject the notion we cannot unless we are irresistibly made to, or should I say, as Calvinists assume pridefully they were irresistible made to.

Be careful of what a person calls love, mercy and grace. Matt Slick thinks locking his mother up in his basement permanently so she doesn't take poison is love, mercy and grace. If a person doesn't have the free will to go to Hell do they really have free will? Slick then would have you believe we are just robots and it is ok to send the robots to Hell who were born into sin that was not their fault. People are then just instrumental value not intrinsic value to God. To Slick we are just tools or pawns in his CARM game. I am sure you are getting a sense of the evil we are dealing with here. God's wrath is upon Matt Slick.

[everstill]

I heartily disagree. As Scriptures clearly testify, it is God who gives one ears to hear and eyes to see--according to HIS purpose; NOT by "peering down the corridors of time to see who is going to "cooperate" in some "synergistic" salvation. The belief in synergism is a delusion that God sends to those whom He does not want to save. Why should I drink wine out of a chamber pot. I buy a chamber pot for a specific purpose. My prayer is Christ's: Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
I heartily disagree because clearly these are passages of not merely God declaring we are going to do this or that, but a call to repentance, to submit ourselves to Him and so forth. Therefore, He affords us sufficient grace to have the choice and your god does not so your god is not God of the Bible. Your god just makes it all a pretentious charade. That will never do! We can even say your god is impotent to be able to do what God of the Bible can do and thus God of the Bible trumps your god hands down.

God doesn't have to peer down the spans of time for He exists outside of time. He can touch any point in time instantly, so your portrayal of God of the Bible is deficient to say the least.

Calvinism is quite like Islam, because Islam says God gave strong delusion to the disciples to think Jesus died on the cross and appeared to them resurrected. Similarly, Calvinists claim the same sort of thing that their god gave strong strong delusion to Christians in our thinking we complied with God's call to repent in His pleading with us to come to the cross to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior. God is not a deceiver though Satan is as he tries to portray himself as being the Father.

The truth is Satan is accusing the saints all day long and his accusations will increase in the coming Tribulation day and night (Rev. 12.10). In fact, most Calvinists don't even believe the Tribulation is coming, so shall they be deceived in it instead of being watchful, for they think it already occurred in the past. Besides, they assume in their decrepit morals they are selected irresistibly anyhow so what does it matter? Strong delusion is upon the Calvinists by Satan which God allows as the Calvinist erects a wall and an idol of Total Depravity on that way which says they can't repent and believe so they don't and won't sad to say. Furthermore, how strange Revelation would not be about end-times and Daniel's last seven and Genesis 1-3 not about beginnings?!

I believe Matthew 11.25 is disclosing the fact why the unsaved such as Calvinists can't understand, why they don't seek God out with all their heart and soul to find Him, because how can you ask, seek, knock and hear if you have already put up a wall between you and God by claiming you are Totally Depraved and thus, assuming you are unable, so you choose another way whereby you assume pridefully to exalt your flesh you were irresistibly selected. Paul says it would have been better you never even heard the name of Jesus (2 Pet. 2.21). Your punishment in Hell will be far worse.

[Churchwork]

Rev. 3:20 is directed at the church, not to the unsaved. To use it as a "proof-text" for evangelization is to disrespect God's word.
Your approach is too restrictive and ad hoc. While it is true this is the Church, God is not limited from speaking to anyone a second before a person could be saved or in speaking to believers about everyone. A person does not get free will as soon as they are saved.

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me" (Rev. 3.20). What a charade this verse would be if Jesus is just declaring irresistible things. Why tell us these things then if they are going to happen anyway and there is nothing you can do about it? In the normal course of speaking to people when you use the phrase, "If any man..." you are opening the door to give them the choice. Such pleading with ancient Israel and the Gentiles as well as the Church are all throughout Scripture.

More problems arise in your limited view. "If any man" suggests some men won't, but how can some in the Church not be saved or lose salvation since those who are born again, "they shall never perish" (John 10.28)? Since this is the word of God it does not contradict itself.

Therefore, we should not unduly restrict this verse in our petty selves to limit it to our particular persuasion. Let the word of God breathe life into your spirit. Amen.

[Parture]

Re: ladodgers6 (CARM)


The Robot argument,this is why Arminians dont understand the Pure Law & Gospel.They take a humanistic approach to the Scriptures,believing that being in the flesh separated from the Holy Spirit;meaning being regenerated the sinner has the ability or power to make Spiritual Choices? When one does not understand our sinful nature before a Holy God,then he fails to grasp that we as sinners are already children of wrath.

What the Calvinist fails to understand is that you are not a child of wrath for being born into sin for obviously that's not your fault, but it is your fault if you refuse the solution God provides. Pridefully just saying you were irresistibly selected won't save you. That is a very humanistic approach.


When one thinks that we have power outside of God to provide a trade with God;this ultimately leads to God oweing the sinner something for the trade.The old adage that we "will be like Gods knowing good and evil".Satan puffed up the human pride to tried and convince we can do anything apart from God;who needs God we can do it.There is countless Scriptures that depict we CANNOT AND WILL NOT SEEK GOD.Think upon how the Calvinist tries to go against God's will and puffs himself up, for God never asked you to pridefully assume you were irresistibly selected. Nobody will seek God without His grace for all, so God provides grace to all to have the choice. The Calvinist is trying to usurp his power outside of God; God never asked you to do this. He has called us to repent to the cross to be saved. He is relational and this is His relational call to us all. God can never behave unrighteously so He would be evil if He didn't provide us all with the grace to be able to respond.


John Calvin did teach that the sinner has a free choice,to choose whatever he/she wants.Nobody is holding a gun to a sinner head saying steal or else.What John Calvin taught was because of our fallen nature our desires in action and thought are sinful continually.We have broken every commandment against God.Adam sinned and death reigned through sin because of one man's disobedience.We are under condemnation and God's wrath because we cannot MAKE CHOICES to fulfill the Law in the first place.We are under condemnation not because we were born into sin, but because after God having provided us the sufficient grace to respond, people refuse His saving grace. To prove this to yourself, you can help an old lady across the street. Likewise you can have faith in Jesus to be saved.


What I dont understand here from you is that you mention the sinner is "wooed".What entails this wooing,is the sinner brought to a place where the sinner understand the position they are in and then make a decision? Then you say that God supplies sufficient grace to all.What does this mean? Because the way I came to understand Grace from God is that God knew we could not and will not fulfill the Law perfectly as God demands.So God by His grace and mercy sent His only begotten Son to die for the ungodly.This is God's Grace and not only that,but God gave the sinner a gift which is Grace (God's love in sending His Son to redeem the sinners he Choose,through Faith which is also a gift from God).Yes I know you don't understand. God provides every human being with the sufficient grace to be able to respond to what Jesus did for us on the cross for the sins of the world. Therefore, we can all receive what He did for us whosoever is willing. The Holy Spirit works and woos to convince and draw people to the Son; therefore you are without excuse when you pridefully assume you were irresistibly selected. We can all freely obtain this gift of repentance, faith and salvation (Regeneration) whosoever is willing. My prayer for you is one day you will.


See what people fail to see here is God provided everything for the sinner,this is God's Grace.But because the flesh still believes that it could do or accomplish the works necessary for Salvation.This is the stumbling block to understand we are in utter hopelessness and dispair and terror when finally realizing that the flesh cannot and will not satified the Law or even come to God without the Holy Spirit bearing witness to the things of God's Spirit.God needs to creat us anew,born again,regenerate us which we will follow Christ with a joyous and cheerful and loving Heart.Because before this transformation happens we are enemies of God.So how can we choose him or even WANT to choose him with the hatred of God in our hearts of stone? There is nothing in a sinner that can satisfy God's Law.The verdict for the flesh is death that's why Jesus died on the cross to bring those who receive Him to death with Him. With the old man died with Christ, the Christian is able to put to nought the deeds of the flesh. This is a stumbling block to Calvinists because they still refuse to receive what Jesus did for them to be regenerated. You are still an enemy of God living in your natural man. How can you choose God? How can God choose you by foreknowing your free choice? By you receiving what God has done for us all which is provide us all with the sufficient grace to respond to Him. There is something that can satisfy God's heart, if you receive what His Son did for you on the cross so that you may be regenerated. God is waiting to give you the gift of repentance and faith if only you were to come to Him with an honest heart. My prayers go out to you.

[Parture]

Re: Jim Wilbur (CARM)


We choose because God has given us the gospel, and has enlightened us, given us the 'faith' that what has been said is true, believing we are saved. We freely choose because of what God has done for us and in us, rejection of Christ is not in the equation, it is by God's grace and His grace alone.He is the One who has choosen us to be in Christ Jesus and He predestined us to come to that reality.

The individual who believe's he must do something other than what God has done for and in Him for salvation is not understanding what the Scriptures say and so is unbiblical

Numbers 16: 5-9 it is a principle of God for salvation from Genesis to Revelation.
We don't choose because the gospel has been given since there is nothing in the Bible that teaches irresistible grace. On the contrary, we choose because we have been given the sufficient grace to be able to respond, thus the right to choose as relational beings. Those who are enlightened and given faith are those who came to God with an honest heart instead of like Calvinists who pridefully assumed they were irresistibly selected. God does not care for that. He is a great big God able to provide sufficient grace to everyone to be able to respond. Just like there were people thousands of years before Christ who could be saved even though they never heard of Jesus, so can be people now who never heard of Jesus, because if they believed in the God of the mountains and the stars surely they would receive Christ also if presented to them the word of God. We preach the gospel to the whole world not as Calvinists teach that they can't accept it anyway, but because this is God's wonderfully abundant grace over and above the common grace to all.

It is in the equation you reject God because they will admit they refuse to give their lives to Christ to be regenerated. God has not chosen such selfish souls who would prefer to just pompously declare they were irresistibly selected. Therefore, Calvinists are predestined for Hell, because God could foresee your free choice to refuse to repent and believe in Him. He doesn't understand he is relying on his own self-strength to do something which is to assume he was irresistibly selected. God calls us to receive what He does for us.

"I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before thee life and death, the blessing and the curse: therefore choose life, that thou mayest live" (Deut. 30.19). God says to choose life, whereas the Calvinists says he can't, that it is not in the "equation". Where does God say it is not in the equation?

The Bible contrasts faith and works so in receiving Christ you are not working for salvation. "By grace are ye saved, through faith;...not of works" (Eph. 2.8-9); "But to him that worketh not, but believeth..." (Rom. 4.5). So why accuse God's children of believing in Him as a work when God says it is not? Don't you realize you are doing Satan's will by accusing the brethren day and night? (Rev. 12.10)

What Numbers 16.5-9 is showing that Calvinists and others have no power because they can't overcome their sins. How can you overcome your sins if you have not be brought to sure death with Christ on the cross and received forgiveness of your sins when you still refuse to receive what Jesus did for you to be regenerated? You're relying on your natural man.

[Parture]

Re: rlhuckle (CARM)


LOL!~ The existence of a choice does not imply any freedom from God to make it. Actually, Scripture teaches that man IS NOT free from God. It is God who authors each man's personality with specific character traits and who bestows gifts, talents and abilities--ALL for the purpose of bringing about His perfect plan and purpose for His elect children. This is the all powerful sovereign God that is revealed in the Scriptures.
God giving us the choice is within God's provision for all people. All our available choices God supplies. God does not make you a sinner, that's your own doing, so don't blame God. He makes you a unique individual, and it is not His fault you are born into sin, nor is it your fault. It is Adam and Eve's fault. Therefore, it would be evil to blame God or for God to send you to Hell for being born into sin. God is not willing to not create someone who would be saved on account of the many who refuse to receive Him to be regenerated. Know that God has provided us all sufficient grace to be able to respond to His grace and the wooing of the Holy Spirit.


Don't go creating straw men from single sentences. God is both transcendent AND immanent. EVERY human being lives, moves and has their being in God and NOBODY could exist APART from HIS active involvement in every atom at every instant. Nobody would or could even comprehend the world and experiences apart from God making it so every moment of every day. This world exists for the benefit of His elect and God works all things for their good.
There is nothing that could be done if God did not allow it and nothing can thwart His plan for His elect, but don't then make a leap of blind faith to think that means we are irresistibly selected. That will not do. Just as God is relational we are relational, so He requires a response from us, and since He has provided us all sufficient grace to be able to respond to His mercy and grace, we can receive what Jesus did for us to be regenerated. Stop being pompous assuming you were irresistibly regenerated. God will never receive you that selfish way. If that is the way you want to be then God has His righteous response to your choice. "But I know! I, the LORD, search all hearts and examine secret motives. I give all people their due rewards, according to what their actions deserve" (Jer. 17.10).


LOL! I really couldn't care less about what you think of Calvinism. My only insterest is in proclaiming Scriptural truth and rebuking error where I see it. Your belief of human free-will is just like the Pharisees whom Jesus called sons of the devil. Your belief that God 'wants' to save all but doesn't paints Him as a weak and impotent deity. God sends delusion to those whom he doesn't want to save. This is a scriptural fact. This does not make God a deceiver; YOU are the deciever by attempting to convince others that God to "gives everybody a chance" at salvation otherwise He wouldn't meet YOUR standard of "fairness."
You don't care about Scripture. You just care about your pompously and self-exalted pride in thinking you were irresistibly regenerated and didn't have to repent to the cross, nor do you think you even could have, because you reject the God who provides sufficient grace to be able to do so. Your god can't do what God can. Yes I believe in human free will since we are humans and humans have free will. What a bizarre accusation. We are not robots. We are relational beings as God is for He made us in His image. That you hate this about God makes you no better off than the Pharisees according to you as a son of the Devil who also accuses God's design.

How can God be weak by having the power to be able to save all whosoever is willing? That's true free will in supplying sufficient grace to us all. Free will is not truly free will if God does not do this. Sadly you worship a god who cannot do this. This is strong delusion on those who think they are wise. How can God's fairness and standards be less than our own? God is greater than us. If we are negligent by being racist towards a certain class of people then so is your god. Shame on you! Praise God the truth is before us all so we are without excuse since God's law is written on the conscience of our hearts.

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" (Rom. 5.18). "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2.4). All men can be saved "whosoever believeth" (John 3.16) "to the knowledge of truth" and "unto justification of life." The same "all men" is in parallel.


Tell me, who died and made you god? Dude, get a grip. You are not making any sense at all. Your dispensationalistic interpretation of the "end times" is foolish and ignorant and your ignorance of man's depravity evidences your worship of humanity, not God. You've watched too many movies and read too many "left behind" books.
Why am I God because I accept by God's grace what Jesus did for me and am not like you pridefully assuming you're irresistibly selected? Your historicism is demonic for Revelation 20.3 says the nations are not deceived in the 1000 years. Why go against Scripture? Obviously the nations still war and we hear rumors of wars. Obviously they are still deceived. Nowhere do we find in Scripture man is Totally depraved. Man is depraved but not Totally depraved for we are not Totally unable. We can help an old lady across the street. God has provided us all sufficient grace to be able to respond, therefore nobody is Totally depraved. Realize you erect this idol of Total depravity because you use it as an excuse to deceive yourself in thinking you can't receive what Jesus did for you to be regenerated, thus eternally separating yourself from God. Your motivation behind this approach is for a selfish salvation.

You are worshiping man's humanity of human strength above God because you declare to the world you were irresistibly selected. Could anything be more pompous and arrogant and obnoxious? I have never read any left behind books, and every movie I have ever seen on end-times got it wrong since the first rapture is according to readiness. Matt. 24.40-42, Luke 21.36 and Rev. 3.10 teach us that only those who keep the word of His patience, are watchful and prayerful will escape the hour of trial that is to come upon the whole world. The first rapture "before the throne" (7.9) occurs before the first trumpet of the Tribulation (8.7ff). Sadly, you don't believe plain reading of Scripture. Not only will you be excluded from the first rapture and the reward of returning with Christ to reign during the 1000 years, you will also not be resurrected with the saints at the last trumpet near the end of the Tribulation, but be resurrected 1000 years later to the Great White Throne with the unregenerate. That's what you make very evident in your choice to refuse to give your life to Christ to be regenerated. How sad for you.



Dude, in your foolish pride, you do not even see how you rob God of His glory. He will not share it. Unless you are converted, I'll be there when you say: "Lord, Lord, look at all the wonderful works we've done in your name!" and Christ will answer you "I NEVER knew you."

Do you not know that the elect will judge even angels?

You keep on workin for your livin...just as God has ordained for you. Christ made my living for me and I got no worries mate.
God doesn't know you because of your foolish pride in thinking you were irresistibly regenerated. You didn't have to genuinely give your life to Christ to be regenerated. This is nothing more than a selfish salvation. Whereas true Christians genuinely repented to the cross as helpless sinners to be regenerated. We gave our lives to the God who keeps. He is a great big God who can provide sufficient grace to all. Your god can't do this. He is no better than Satan then. The elect have already judged Calvinists so you are condemned, for you condemn yourself to Hell as unsaved tares trying to look like the saved wheat.

You keep accusing faith as a work when God distinguishes them. And you keep holding a doublestandard because it is acceptable according to you to work for your salvation by assuming you were irresistibly selected, but it is not for Christians to have faith unto regeneration. Whenever you have a doublestandard there is something wrong in your theology and world-view. God has ordained for you to rely on your self-strength, because He has foreseen that you will never give your life to Him. Similarly, He hardens the Pharaoh's heart further from the first active instance of him hardening his own heart first. God's will is that you repent and believe on Him to be regenerated, but sadly since you don't want to, He has made your living for you to spend eternity in Hell. How terrible for you.

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel: it is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek" (Rom. 1.16). This verses does not say "the power of God for faith to every one who has been saved." Only the sinners who "received him...them that believe on his name" (John 1.12) become "born again...by the word of God...which by the gospel is preached" (1 Pet. 1.23,25). Amen.

[everstill]

Yes, God gives us choices; the issue is whether the choice is free from God. Scripture teaches that it isn't.
Actually that's not the issue since Christians believe all our choices are within God's providence. Rather, the issue is whether God's grace is prevenient, that is, sufficient for us all. Since Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world and pleads with us then His grace is sufficient for us all, something your god is unable to do.


Yes, but there is only one choice made in ANY circumstance: the one God ordained one to make. Yes, but what God ordains to make is based upon our choice since He is relational. Your god can't do that.


God created all men with a propensity for sin--else we'd all be elect angels. One cannot sin without a propensity toward it.

God created man naked--in need of a sin covering. Man just didn't KNOW he was naked until he discovered the propensity for sin that God gave him and then acted upon it. Adam's experience is the perfect picture of the regeneration of an elect soul.

Cain's experience is the perfect picture of a reprobate soul.

God creates both and chose which is which from before the foundation of the world. Sin exists in the life of an elect child to drive them to Christ. Sin exists in the life of a reprobate child so they merit eternal damnation. Both of these situations bring glory to God.We would be angels if God didn't create us with propensity to sin? That's quite the strange theology. God doesn't create us with the propensity to sin, for Adam was created without sin, but men are born into sin as a result of the sin of the first Adam. Adam is regenerated and elect? He separated himself from God by his sin. How is that regeneration and elect?

Rather, Abel's offering was the right offering and Cain was like his father, hostile and disobedient to God.

God didn't create man to sin, that is Satanic. Sin doesn't exist to drive people to Christ. Sin exists because we were born into sin from the first Adam. What drives a person to Christ is after God draws all men, some people willingly receive Christ whereas others don't because they are sovereign free-willed beings who have the choice.

No glory is brought to God by sending a person to Hell just because they are born into sin and not provided the sufficient grace to be able to respond positively. What love is that?


That's the most ignorant and stupid worldly philosophy I've ever read. You care nothing for Scripture. You've made yourself your own god and now require God to abide by it. How vain!Obviously you care nothing for Scripture since you think Jer. 17.10 is stupid which you leaped right over. God says you have the choice, but you say you don't, so you have created another god for yourself which you declare pompously that you were irresistibly regenerated by. How vain and worldly. Sound selfish.


Dude, don't be stupid! Repentance is a gift! Repentance ALWAYS follows regeneration! All things in the life of an elect child flow from God's choice from before time. The natural man cannot comprehend spiritual truth! The natural man thinks exactly like YOU do!How stupid it is to think that repentance is forced on people. What kind of gift is that? A true gift can be rejected. You can freely obtain that gift the Bible says unto regeneration which you are unwilling to do. Repentance never comes before faith, then how shallow faith would be? "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out" (Acts 3.19). Therefore, you never truly repented to be saved. God's choice before time is not irresistibly imposed but is contingent on your response to His sufficient grace to all. You are still living in your natural man, unwilling to receive Christ to be regenerated. The natural man is too selfish just like you unwilling to repent and pridefully thinks he was irresistibly chosen. That is not coming into a right relationship with God.


This is the issue and your repeating it as a mantra does nothing. Scripture teaches exactly the opposite:

Isa 26:12-13, (KJV), LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us. (13) O LORD our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name.

Ps 90:1-3, (KJV), Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. (2) Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. (3) Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.

Isa 63:17, (KJV), O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

Acts 2:22-23, (KJV), Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: (23) Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Acts 4:25-28, (KJV), Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? (26) The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. (27) For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, (28) For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Acts 17:28, (KJV), For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Prov 21:1, (KJV), The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Ps 105:25, (KJV), He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants.

Prov 16:1, (KJV), The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24, (KJV), Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Jer 10:23, (KJV), O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Dude--it is God who makes all men exactly as He wants. It is God who has determined the outcome of every circumstance: the thoughts, words and deeds of men. It is all under control!

Again, don't be stupid.God doesn't determine outcomes by irresistibly moving men around like chess pieces, but He is interactive, interpersonal and relative just like humans are. God doesn't lord over people. He makes men as He wants, but that says nothing about irresistibly imposing upon men to do what He wants. He gives them the choice and supplies sufficient grace for us to be able to respond. Stop making excuses for your unwillingness to repent to the cross to be regenerated.

What God wants you to do is think and ask the question, "How does God determine the outcome by irresistibly imposing or righteously responding?"

These verses don't agree with you that man has no free will. In each verse you insert into the text that which is not there. What you are doing is debasing man treating him like a robot, and degrading your conscience as a result. Human responsibility is vital. Time to grow up!

Take for example Esau. The verse doesn't say Esau was irresistibly hated for no good reason, but through God's infinite foreknowledge He could see Esau's response to God. The Calvinist shuts his mind down to these things and doesn't think deeply. Ultimately that's what Satan wants is for you to shut your mind down. The same sort of problem exists in how you read these other verses, stopping short of the glory of God.

[everstill]

Quit blaming Christ for your stupidity. Fess up and own it yourself. God creates wineglasses and chamberpots and fills each accordingly. You are welcome to share from God's chamberpots.

I am pretty sure Jesus wouldn't talk like that.

How am I blaming Christ? He is the one that reveals you are unsaved and going to Hell because you refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Where have I not fessed up and owned it? I was chosen by God before the foundations of the world, one of His elect, but you are not because you worship a false Christ, a demonic spirit, that says people go to Hell without any grace or love or opportunity to be saved and that you were irresistibly selected. You're owning a lie. Stop blaming Christ that you have to genuinely receive Him to be saved. Stop claiming by your idol of Total Depravity that you can't respond, for if you maintain that position then you will never receive Christ into your life. Accordingly, God must therefore, send you to Hell. Don't confuse God's chamberpots with false Christians such as yourself.

[everstill]

Regeneration is the cause of repentance. Regeneration is an effect of justification. God's decree is its fulfillment. The wineglasses know this. The chamberpots will never know this until the judgment. God wants it that way. YOu run along and go play the chamberpot now like a good boy....
Not sure how that gives God glory to God to obnoxiously tell people to run along like a good boy and tell people they are stupid. Would Jesus talk like that?

If regeneration were the cause of repentance then you could find a verse in Scripture to support your claim but you don't. Don't take pride in inserting into the text that which is not said. On the contrary...

Man is regenerated by believing the Lord Jesus as his Savior: "to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave the power to become children of God; who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1.12-13). First you must be willing to "receive him" then you may "become children of God" NOT the other way around. There is not some regeneration before salvation, for salvation is regeneration. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Tit. 3.5). "Saved us" here is "washing of regeneration". To be regenerated/saved one must do what? "Believe in his name"; NOT assume pridefully you were irresistibly regenerated and without prior having had to believe on Him. For that is a selfish salvation.

Most Calvinists will not realize they are going to spend eternity in Hell until that day comes when they are resurrected a thousand years after the millennial kingdom reign when they stand before the Great White Throne, judged and cast into the Lake of Fire for all eternity. You won't even have any contention, because you will reject the verdict handed down to you by God and Lamb of God, thus, to Hell you will go as you wish. Gladly you walk through the gates of Hell to be where you belong.

[everstill]

Scripture clearly teaches that the natural (unregenerate) man cannot comprehend spiritual truth (the gospel). Only the regenerate can comprehend it. You're a good example of an unregenerate man who is scared to death of the truth. Your salvation is not YOUR choice to make, it is solely God's choice. The evidence of one's true salvation is a faith that comprises true propositions regarding the person and work of Christ. Your faith contains many false propositions, therefore you are at best an immature (boy) in Christ and at worst unregenerate (which I believe you to be). Hence my rebuke.
Scipture clearly teaches that the natural (unregenerate) man can comprehend scriptural truth (the gospel), that's why Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the whole world so the unregenerate (natural man) can be saved. That's why He pleads with you to hear His voice. "They that hear shall live" (John 5.25). "Every one who seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life" (John 6.40). "Believing ye may have life" (John 20.31). "Believe...and thou shalt be saved" (Acts 16.31). "Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, 'The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel'" (Mark 1.15). "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out" (Acts 3.19). If you are Totally unable then why would God plead with you to hear, come, see and believe? The natural man can remain in his flesh or receive the atoning sacrifice. God has given sufficient grace to us all to be able to respond to the wooing of His Spirit. You wouldn't want to place your faith in a god who doesn't.

The man who wants to remain in his natural man will not hear the gospel, will not listen and not come before Christ to be regenerated. We see the sufficiency of God's grace all throughout Scripture (something your god can never have). "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to usward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Pet. 3.9). This sounds like sufficient grace to us all and is why He pleads with us all, because we have the choice to be saved by grace through faith. "Who would have [desires] all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2.4).

Understand your double mindedness for you assumed and still do that you were irresistibly selected. That's no way to come to Christ. You say this is not your choice to make, yet this is your action: your very choice to assume you are the Aryan race, but that's not how one is saved. That's how evil men try to save themselves. To be saved, you will need to come to the cross as a helpless sinner to be regenerated, something as yet you are unwilling to do. The fear rises up in you when you think of the proposition of letting go, repenting and placing your trust in Jesus to be regenerated. Fear is restricting you, causing you to cling your natural self. "Ye will not come to me, that ye may have life" (John 5.40). Don't you know love casteth out all fear? So let go and place your trust in Him. He's holding the door open for you. All ye that are willing to enter may have life.

God's choice is not arbitrary and meaningless. His reasons are solid. Election is conditional: "If ye be willing and obedient" (Is. 1.19). Free will is not truly free without this choice afforded to us all. God predestinates by foreknowing our willingness and obedience. "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate (Rom. 8.29)...elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father" (1 Pet. 1.2).

The Holy Spirit tells me in no uncertain terms intuitively and by the word of God specifically, you have never given your life to Christ. You don't know if you are saved or not, not really, since it was never your choice. But that is just an assumption on your part. Where does the Bible ask us to assume we are irresistibly selected and that we had no choice? God is pleading with you as the "Savior of all men, specially those who believe" (1 Tim. 4.10) since those who respond to His being "Savior of all men" shall by saved by grace through faith.


So, you are the god who saves yourself by causing your own regeneration, eh? Good luck[sic] with that... I'm glad my posts are being honored in this way. They will speak to a whole new audience and God will use them to convict, edify or harden as He sees fit. Thank you very much.God is relational. He enjoys our response. We are not just a bunch of pawns on a chessboard He moves around arbitrarily. Just as God has free will, He enjoys relating to us with free will, especially to receive His saving grace so that He can bring us into His fold and enjoy eternity with. This is not something your god can do or would want to do.

Calvinists lack across the board a personableness with people because they are just reflecting their irate sovereign evil Hitler-type god who sends the Jews to the gas chambers just because they are born Jews and irresistibly imposes salvation on the Aryan race. Calvinism is a religion of racists! Hitler could not achieved what he did without the teachings of Calvinism he was brought up with. Think how evil it is to send a child to Hell just because he or she is born into sin, given no grace whatsoever to even have the opportunity to be saved. What love is that? It's psychopathic. You need to be locked up, and you will be in the Lake of Fire for rejecting the love of the One True God. It is you who wants to be eternally separated from your Creator.

God hardens your heart further because the first active instance of hardening was you hardening your own heart feven though God had supplied you with more than ample grace, abundance of conviction, and the enablement to respond to His universal atonement."I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh" (John 6.51).

Alas, for Calvinists it is all a charade. For them God is not pleading with anyone but just telling everyone this is irresistibly how it's going to be to make you eat or not eat. How absurd! How demonic!

[everstill]

Different Calvinists believe different things. Sometimes they are 2 point this and 3 point that, but they always believe in Total Depravity, the opposite of which is Free Will. Some will say we have no free will. Others will say we don't even have a will. Yet others will say it is free, but their god has to irresistibly cause it to do stuff yet still call that free will so you get all types. Satan is the author of confusion. They almost all believe in irresistible grace which flows from Total Depravity and thus send people to Hell by passing over (preterition), giving people insufficient grace to be able to respond, and those that are elect in no way could have refused it.

It's not free will at all even though due to embarrassment they try to bring in a free will or a will of some sort but of course it never fits with God's word. They are confused lot, all stemming from the false teaching of Total Depravity, an idol, but nobody in reality is Totally Depraved since God provides sufficient grace to us all to have the choice. The god of Calvinism can't do this.

All the problems go away once Total Depravity goes away and Sufficient Prevenient Grace is the starting point. Once you have that, free-will is established, conditional election, resistible grace, unlimited atonement and preservation of the saints all flow easily. Free Will is not truly free unless God is the God "who desires all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time" (1 Tim. 2.4-6).

The most amazing thing to me are those who are most learned in the land of Calvinism are so lost. Those who take on the highest authority in the Calvinismania are the most delusional. This only proves the point that this is not really an issue of information or knowledge, but of conscience. Do you see? It's an amazing fact to behold.