John Calvin of Geneva, Augustine of Hippo and James White of Phoenix

[Parture]

Re: Dejan2116
http://www.youtube.com/user/Dejan2116


James White was right, Dave Hunt didn't address the issue; if you study logic, you'll see equivocation in Dave's replies, even though they sound like responses. If you say James White isn't a Christian because he was a Calvinist, then you might as well say Paul the apostle or St. Augustine weren't Christians either because they taught Calvinistic doctrine. Nobody even a little familiar with the history of the Church from ancient to modern times could ever say that Calvinists aren't Christians.
I can't find anywhere where Paul taught irresistible regeneration, but he did say, "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men" (Tit. 2.11).

Thus, James White, Augustine and John Calvin are going to Hell because they refuse to give their lives to the God who provides sufficient grace to all of us to respond.


Actually, you're the one who believes God's grace is insufficient, not Calvinists. Calvinists honor God's grace. What your doctrines end up saying is, God cannot save me unless he asks me--O great and holy man that I am-- for my permission. Now what is real heresy? That which says "God can't save unless I want him to" or that which says "God is free to save in any way he wishes, regardless of my human powers." I think the former, but tell me why you think the latter.
God provides the provision for being saved and thus, gives you the choice. Providing the provision is not God asking you but providing you the enablement. God doesn't save someone arbitrarily and meaninglessly. He has purpose in all that He does. God is not free to save unrighteously for that would make Him an evil God and goes against His nature.


Nobody sought God like John Calvin; he was one of the most godliest men ever to exist on planet earth. And Augustine was one of the most godliest, faithful men of his time as well; if you read his City of God you'd know. Children don't understand complex doctrines; Calvinism is only for those who wish to rise above the intellect of a child and ponder on the deeper purposes of God's-behind the-scenes work of salvation. Why do you think Calvinists are heretical? Give me a summary.
I know with 100% certainty John Calvin, that murderous Protestant Pope of Geneva, is going to Hell. It's too late for him, but it is not too late for you. Both Augustine and Calvin refused to repentantly and by faith give their lives to Christ genuinely. Instead they prided themselves on the assumption of being irresistibly selected. Unless you come like a child into the kingdom you won't be saved with your high and mighty doctrines.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGWvAtxmUXA

[dejan2116]

Sadly, I see that you have no clue about the life and times of John Calvin, nor have you seriously studied his life. First, Calvin was never the ruler of Geneva, much less a "pope"; he was virtually always subservient to the community at Geneva, and it's only until the end of his life that he had any sole leadership at the Church there; thus, to call him a pope is to slander his character unjustly. Secondly, John Calvin was not a murderer, but even if he was--and he wasn't--so was Paul the Apostle. Are you going to say Paul went to hell because he was a murderer? By biblical standards we're all murderers, yet this does not revoke repentance. Thirdly, you know little about Augustine, that great man of God who defended Christian orthodoxy from heretics throughout his life and who did great service to the Church universal by the godly style of life he lived after his conversion. And, if I were you, I wouldn't denounce a persons character with 100% certainty, especially when you haven't a clue what Calvin or Augustine believed in their own context, or how they lived. Now lets move to the meat of the issue.

Why am I a Calvinist? Primarily because God humbled me to his Sovereign freedom to save. But also because I got tired of looking at Christianity through the faulty lens of a "free-will" doctrine that is more the product of human selfishness than biblical theology. I realized that to look at the whole of Christianity through the lens of some free will doctrine that isn't even the center of the New Testament is to miss the point of Christianity and to dishonor the name of Christ. Thus, you are sorely mistaken in making the doctrine of free will the standard by which you judge a person saved or unsaved. Free will isn't the doctrine that determines salvation, is it? Yet you're making it appear like it is by condemnation Calvin and Augustine to hell, even though they were more godly than both you or I, humanly speaking, and if you can't see this is unchristian, fleshly behavior then God help you! What does "free-will" even mean? Are you "free" from man, or "free" from God? In your position, you're free from both, but I submit to you that there is a better way. I take the biblical position that I have a free will when it comes to man--nobody forces me to do anything that I of my free will do-- but I and no other living or nonliving thing in the universe has a free will when it comes to God, for he is the final determiner and author of my life and choices which he has written before all creation. To repeat, I have a free will, only it's not free from God since he is its maker and Sovereign who does with it what he pleases. Where is the heresy in this? What charge do you bring against me? Do you fault me, and Calvinists like me, with lifting high the name of God and his freedom in salvation, in his freedom as GOD? If this is my fault, I gladly confess. You say God is "not free to save unrighteously", and I agree with you, for God cannot sin. But you need to explain to me why your view of the will is more glorifying to God than the Calvinist view of the will. Why should I adopt your view of human freedom? Can you show me any passage that says we are free in will from God? I don't think you can.

Where is the pride in being irresistibly selected? On the contrary, this takes away my pride, for it tells me that my salvation is solely a product of God's grace and not of my internal merits. If any theology entices pride it's yours, for your meritorious free will is the final cause of your salvation, not God's grace. Do you really think Jesus means we should be as meager minded as children in doctrine and theology when he speaks of the child as a model of Christian virtue? Not at all. You need to rise above the intellect of a child, for says Paul, "when I became a man I gave up childish ways" (1 Cor. 13:11). You need to humble yourself and remove that Spirit of enmity against Calvinism and Calvinists; when you do this we'll talk because I perceive that you will tune out everything I say just because I wear the label of a Calvinist.

[Parture]

Sadly, I see that you have no clue about the life and times of John Calvin, nor have you seriously studied his life. First, Calvin was never the ruler of Geneva, much less a "pope"; he was virtually always subservient to the community at Geneva, and it's only until the end of his life that he had any sole leadership at the Church there; thus, to call him a pope is to slander his character unjustly. Secondly, John Calvin was not a murderer, but even if he was--and he wasn't--so was Paul the Apostle. Are you going to say Paul went to hell because he was a murderer? By biblical standards we're all murderers, yet this does not revoke repentance. Thirdly, you know little about Augustine, that great man of God who defended Christian orthodoxy from heretics throughout his life and who did great service to the Church universal by the godly style of life he lived after his conversion. And, if I were you, I wouldn't denounce a persons character with 100% certainty, especially when you haven't a clue what Calvin or Augustine believed in their own context, or how they lived. Now lets move to the meat of the issue.
John Calvin was the murderous Protestant Pope of Geneva. His influence was pervasive. Paul did not kill people after he got saved like Calvin did. Christians don't murder people so you are not a Christian since you admit you are a murderer. Gandhi did great works too, but he was also unsaved since he never gave his life to Christ. We are not saved by works lest any man should boast. Since Augustine refused to repent and believe in Christ to be saved, he is going to Hell. Salvation is not by assuming you were irresistibly chosen. Christians can sense this pompous and arrogance and the claim people go to Hell without any opportunity for salvation. This is demonic. This shows you never gave your life to Christ. Sadly, you probably never will.


Why am I a Calvinist? Primarily because God humbled me to his Sovereign freedom to save. But also because I got tired of looking at Christianity through the faulty lens of a "free-will" doctrine that is more the product of human selfishness than biblical theology. I realized that to look at the whole of Christianity through the lens of some free will doctrine that isn't even the center of the New Testament is to miss the point of Christianity and to dishonor the name of Christ. Thus, you are sorely mistaken in making the doctrine of free will the standard by which you judge a person saved or unsaved. Free will isn't the doctrine that determines salvation, is it? Yet you're making it appear like it is by condemnation Calvin and Augustine to hell, even though they were more godly than both you or I, humanly speaking, and if you can't see this is unchristian, fleshly behavior then God help you! What does "free-will" even mean? Are you "free" from man, or "free" from God? In your position, you're free from both, but I submit to you that there is a better way. I take the biblical position that I have a free will when it comes to man--nobody forces me to do anything that I of my free will do-- but I and no other living or nonliving thing in the universe has a free will when it comes to God, for he is the final determiner and author of my life and choices which he has written before all creation. To repeat, I have a free will, only it's not free from God since he is its maker and Sovereign who does with it what he pleases. Where is the heresy in this? What charge do you bring against me? Do you fault me, and Calvinists like me, with lifting high the name of God and his freedom in salvation, in his freedom as GOD? If this is my fault, I gladly confess. You say God is "not free to save unrighteously", and I agree with you, for God cannot sin. But you need to explain to me why your view of the will is more glorifying to God than the Calvinist view of the will. Why should I adopt your view of human freedom? Can you show me any passage that says we are free in will from God? I don't think you can.
What Christians see is that what you worship is Satan because God never irresistibly imposes humility on anyone, nor repentance or faith. He doesn't work that way since that would be evil. This force on you was you opening yourself up the Devil's facsimile. This is selfish and faulty thinking, wanting to be controlled like a zombie instead of taking responsibility for yourself with the enablement that God gives us. God is relational, so you dishonor him without there being free will. God doesn't want robots but to commune with free willed beings. His grace, mercy, justice, etc. all working with us synergistically and compatibly. This creates for a vibrate exchange and only gets dumbed down by the way you think. Such passivity is a doorway to demonic influence. Since God said we are saved by grace through faith, your free will must make a choice. There is no two ways about it. We are told to "repent, and be baptized every one of you" (Acts 2.38) because we have a choice. If we had no choice then such a declaration would be in vain. You make a mockery of God giving him a duplicitous nature. You make him a liar to justify all the times you lied. Free will is true. God provides all our available choices. Total depravity is a lie since in that case your god would have to use preterition and irresistibly impose regeneration on people instead of giving us the sufficient grace to enable us all "whosoever is willing". You lift high the name of Satan that you deceive people with as being God. God gives us human freedom. We are not zombies. Christians don't say we are "free in will from God" so why form that argument? Remember, all our choices are afforded to us from God. The problem, and why you are not saved, is because you want to be zombified and because you would have people who go to Hell who do not deserve to. While you don't think this is evil, God's word shows it is evil, for we see God pleads with us and we can respond to His pleading and convicting. He graces us, woos us by His Spirit and works all things for the good of those who love Him. There is a constant response required and needed in any friendship. We don't see God glorified in any other way. Let us be grateful there will be no Calvinists in the New City and New Earth and that we will no longer shed a tear for you.


Where is the pride in being irresistibly selected? On the contrary, this takes away my pride, for it tells me that my salvation is solely a product of God's grace and not of my internal merits. If any theology entices pride it's yours, for your meritorious free will is the final cause of your salvation, not God's grace. Do you really think Jesus means we should be as meager minded as children in doctrine and theology when he speaks of the child as a model of Christian virtue? Not at all. You need to rise above the intellect of a child, for says Paul, "when I became a man I gave up childish ways" (1 Cor. 13:11). You need to humble yourself and remove that Spirit of enmity against Calvinism and Calvinists; when you do this we'll talk because I perceive that you will tune out everything I say just because I wear the label of a Calvinist.
You're internally meriting yourself because you are taking on the position you did not have to repent and believe in Christ like everyone else, that all you needed to do was to assume it into being. We find this obnoxious and arrogant! And how you pride yourself over others that you think are preteritioned to Hell is a horrific god. Your conscience is seared so it can't sense this ugliness as you are fused with Satan in this lie to block it out. God is the final cause of salvation but the condition is required, our genuine receiving of what He did for us. There is a genuineness there to Christians for having done so authentically. You never did. All you did was exalt yourself as being preselected. The doublemind you have is you merit your assumption but Christians can't merit our will. We don't merit our will for the Bible says works are not faith. You can't merit faith. So when you accuse Christians of receiving Christ by meriting it, you are just talking out the side of your face because you merit the assumption on a pedestal pridefully assuming you were irresistibly selected rather than be preteritioned. Who is to say you were not preteritioned for Hell since it was never your choice? To enter the kingdom of heaven we are to be like children you consider merely only meager minded. Your have a self-exalted teaching that separates you from God accusing God's children of entering the kingdom like children. Paul is not contradicting himself when he says not to be childish and entering the kingdom like a child. In fact, you are still being childish. What do children do? They stomp their feet and say "mine". Why? "Because". That is the core of your doctrine, "I am selected, I don't have to repent". You despise God who said to be a child unto the kingdom by coming to the cross as a helpless sinner to be regenerated. Instead you are that childish brat who doesn't come to the table, sits himself down to receive the meal responsibly so God recognizes this about you that you prefer to exalt yourself above others you claim are cordoned off and not allowed to have a meal just because they are born a certain way. You sit on the couch and declare the meal delivered to you. You are so ugly you have no idea. Calvinism is very racist in this regard and many parallels can be be drawn with Hitler who treated the Jews the same way. You're a bad man and you will being going to Hell because the Bible declares you are "condemned already" (John 3.18). It is certain. You can accuse Christians of anything you like who know you are not saved since you refused to be saved God's way, but that doesn't change the fact you are not saved. We love you. You are our enemy, but we love our enemy. We don't have enmity against you. But you have enmity against us because we know that you are going to Hell. My prayers go out to you. Let us pray together there be no more murderous Protestant Popes of Geneva. The Malachy Prophecy will be fulfilled by the Antichrist when the Vatican is destroyed in the first half of the Tribulation. This is the fate of the harlot and the little harlots, Calvinism and non-OSASers.

Jesus "became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him" (Heb. 5.9) not "so all will obey him" or "some will be made to obey him."

[dejan2116]

First, in regard to Calvin, you tuned out everything I said and continue to very selfishly belittle and slander his good name. Calvin didn't kill people, and if you are refering to the squabble with Michael Servetus, Calvin was not a willing accomplise in the man's execution, so please stop calling Calvin a murderer when you know little of what actually happened.

Second, man does not deserve salvation let alone an "opportunity" for salvation, so to condemn Calvinists to hell because they deny that sinful, rebellious, hell-deserving men and women don't all have an "opportunity" to be saved is nonsensical. As a Calvinist, I affirm that man, as a result of the fall, naturally hates God and that is why he loves his sin, so even if you offered God to such a man he would rather wallow in sin. What makes you think that a man WOULD of his own sin-corrupted free will choose the truest good of the gospel? Apart from the regenerating work of the Spirit of God, nobody would even think about "choosing" God, so there is little point in God giving all men an "opportunity" to be saved when none of them would even think of taking that opportunity. Yet you reject Calvinism because you falsely think God sends innocent people to hell? Are there really "innocent" people? Are people born good and holy? No. So how is anyone innocent? Think about that. You think election is "demonic" because you work on the assumption that God owes you something; you falsely think God owes you a chance to be saved. Stop and think about this a second; does he? No. Your problem is that you have a very man-centered view of salvation, which causes you to primarily look at salvation from the human perspective. As a Calvinist, I look at salvation from God's perspective, and that is why I come to these Calvinistic conclusions of election, predestination,etc,etc.

No Calvinist denies the freedom of the human will, and no knowledgeable Calvinst would say human beings are just robots, so please stop resorting to strawman arguments. And above all, don't resort to name-calling and ad-hominem attacks. Every Calvinist believes we have a free will, only it's not absolutely free from God's decree--that's the only point we make. How can this be demonic? This is not to say that we act like robots in our relationship with God. Far from it! We have a genuine creaturely will that chooses between good and evil regurarly, and in compatibility to God's decree. Notice, however, that I called it a "creaturely" will, which means it is limited in "freedom." However, by making man's will a "condition" for salvation, you deny grace alone salvation and bring in merits into salvation. Salvation looks more like this: I, like Lazarus am spiritually blind and dead, and my will is infected by sin. But out of the blue Jesus comes and says to me "Rise!", and I rise. Then this Jesus gives me a new will that is no longer dead in sin, and by that new will I believe in him, and then by the means of that faith/belief I am justified." Hence, regeneration comes before "choosing" Jesus. He opens my heart and replaces it with a new one before I can "choose" to be saved, just like Lazarus, when he was dead, couldn't "choose" anything--he just woke up from death to life amazed at Jesus' grace. Only in this Calvinistic view is salvation truly by "grace alone."

Even if God did tyranically impose his will on me, I would have no complaints and no cause to judge God. Thus, I don't understand why you are so hostile to my views. However, Calvainists don't believe God "imposes" damnation on innocent people; you have a fundemantal misunderstanding of Calvinism. First, there are no innocent people. You falsely think that predestination means man is no longer responsible for his sin but that it's somehow God's fault. But this is not what Calvinism teaches, nor what Calvin wrote! God doesn't "force" me to be a sinner, he has just written the book of my life. Predestination could be compared to reading a novel; think about the characters in any novel. As you read the book page by page, the characters come to life in your mind. And as you read the story the characters make genuine, real choices even though their destiny is already written, because the author of that book wrote it a long time ago. What I'm saying is that predestination is compatible with a creaturely free will, just as the novel characters' "free" will is compatible with a finished book. Time is like this. Now, we're half way done reading the book, if you know what i mean. In other words, we don't have to be absolutely free from God's decree to have a creaturely free will. Are the charactesr in that book "passive" or encouraged to live in "passivity" even though their destiny is written? No, so neither does God's decree encourage my passivinity.

I just have to laugh at some things you say, not becaues I'm disrespectful, but because I just find your straw man arguments against Calvinism hysterical. What Calvinist that you know denies the necessity of repentance and faith? If you think Calvinism means "I'm slected, so I don't have to repent," then you're sorely mistaken. Calvinism looks more like this: "I'm a sinner deserving eternal death. But God, in his great grace, loved me before the foundation of the world and showed me life by deciding to save my sinful soul. I was not chosen because I'm more special than anyone else, but solely from God's gracious will as Creator and I his creature. Thus, because I am selected by his unmerited love, and that unconditionally, I need to live for him by faith and repent from sin continually in order to please the Author of my Salvation."

[Parture]

First, in regard to Calvin, you tuned out everything I said and continue to very selfishly belittle and slander his good name. Calvin didn't kill people, and if you are refering to the squabble with Michael Servetus, Calvin was not a willing accomplise in the man's execution, so please stop calling Calvin a murderer when you know little of what actually happened.
Calvin had Michael Servetus killed and wanted him dead badly and many others with arguments that the state enacted. You're delusional, shutting your mind down like a zombie for Satan. You are so evil you have no idea. Calvin said, "If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight." You're a like a rapist who convinces himself he never raped anyone.


Second, man does not deserve salvation let alone an "opportunity" for salvation, so to condemn Calvinists to hell because they deny that sinful, rebellious, hell-deserving men and women don't all have an "opportunity" to be saved is nonsensical. As a Calvinist, I affirm that man, as a result of the fall, naturally hates God and that is why he loves his sin, so even if you offered God to such a man he would rather wallow in sin. What makes you think that a man WOULD of his own sin-corrupted free will choose the truest good of the gospel? Apart from the regenerating work of the Spirit of God, nobody would even think about "choosing" God, so there is little point in God giving all men an "opportunity" to be saved when none of them would even think of taking that opportunity. Yet you reject Calvinism because you falsely think God sends innocent people to hell? Are there really "innocent" people? Are people born good and holy? No. So how is anyone innocent? Think about that. You think election is "demonic" because you work on the assumption that God owes you something; you falsely think God owes you a chance to be saved. Stop and think about this a second; does he? No. Your problem is that you have a very man-centered view of salvation, which causes you to primarily look at salvation from the human perspective. As a Calvinist, I look at salvation from God's perspective, and that is why I come to these Calvinistic conclusions of election, predestination,etc,etc.
A person who is born a sinner is not his own fault (you avoided this point) so that is not the reason he deserves to go to Hell. Rather, he deserves to go to Hell because like you, he refuses to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated once reaching the age accountability. Everyone deserves a right to be saved if they fulfill the condition. If it is unrighteous of us to behave otherwise to fellow human beings, then it is evil for your god and you. Two kids are playing in quicksand, having fun, not realizing they quicksand is about to overtake them and they will die, but your god extends rope out to one of them and not the other. Your god, Satan, is gloried in laughing at the one who dies and saves the other for no good reason. Now you are not going to Hell because you admit man is a sinner. You are going to Hell because you worship an evil god who sends people to Hell for the sole reason they were born into sin as not being their own fault and because you personally refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Just think how evil it is to think like Hitler the Jews should get no opportunity to escape. Hitler thought it was "nonsensical" to give the Jews an opportunity to escape. God provides sufficient grace to us all, so it is not true all men would wallow in sin and refuse salvation, for here I am as a witness I do not wallow in sin but have received what the Lord Jesus did for me as do many others, yet you still do not. You wallow in sin, the idol of Total depravity. What makes you think Christians choose God apart from God? Think. You're just being like the Devil accusing for that is not what Christians believe. We believe God gives us the grace to be able to respond even though we are fallen, and because we are fallen He does this for all mankind. This how great God's love is, a love you don't know. It is because God is big enough that He can give grace to all men so all men can respond freely. But your god can't do this because he is not God. Someone born into sin not of his own doing is not innocent of that nature? If God doesn't respond with grace and mercy then God is to blame. How can someone be guilty of that which is not their fault? Did you bring yourself into the world and given yourself a sin nature when you were in your mother's womb? You're sick. You are like someone who keeps accusing their friend of doing something they never did. What kind of friend are you? Calvinism is very man-centered because man in this world declares "I am" this or "I am" that just like Calvinism and without true repentance, exalting himself on high. Nothing could be more humanistic. God is guilty and would actually be Satan if God was your god because God never blames anyone for anything that is not their fault. Satan is the great accuser, the great false accuser. You are going to Hell.


No Calvinist denies the freedom of the human will, and no knowledgeable Calvinst would say human beings are just robots, so please stop resorting to strawman arguments. And above all, don't resort to name-calling and ad-hominem attacks. Every Calvinist believes we have a free will, only it's not absolutely free from God's decree--that's the only point we make. How can this be demonic? This is not to say that we act like robots in our relationship with God. Far from it! We have a genuine creaturely will that chooses between good and evil regurarly, and in compatibility to God's decree. Notice, however, that I called it a "creaturely" will, which means it is limited in "freedom." However, by making man's will a "condition" for salvation, you deny grace alone salvation and bring in merits into salvation. Salvation looks more like this: I, like Lazarus am spiritually blind and dead, and my will is infected by sin. But out of the blue Jesus comes and says to me "Rise!", and I rise. Then this Jesus gives me a new will that is no longer dead in sin, and by that new will I believe in him, and then by the means of that faith/belief I am justified." Hence, regeneration comes before "choosing" Jesus. He opens my heart and replaces it with a new one before I can "choose" to be saved, just like Lazarus, when he was dead, couldn't "choose" anything--he just woke up from death to life amazed at Jesus' grace. Only in this Calvinistic view is salvation truly by "grace alone."
A robot is one that moves this way or that not of his own accord just like the evil god of calvinism moves one to be irresistibly regenerated (you are not addressing this, please respond in kind instead of evading the point). This is what is meant by robots. You may not want to admit it but your god is the god of robots. Free will is not truly free will if people are not afforded the choice (you're avoiding this point). Free will is not free if a person is irresistibly made to do something or born into sin and preteritioned, passed over like a piece of meat. These are just the characteristics of Satan trying to simulate God's grace. Calvinists don't merely only say God's decree gives us free will, but look behind what they are saying. Their kind of free will doesn't really exist because no free will is exhibited in preterition and irresistible grace. You can't have it both ways. You can't impose irresistible regeneration and preterition and then at the same time say man has a free will. That's doubletalk. The Bible says be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8). Don't shirk away from this. God is the one who saves alone, but your choice is required. You've got a doublestandard (which you don't address) when you say man merits his salvation by receiving Christ but you don't merit salvation by your assumption you were irresistibly selected. I would say faith as a choice is not works, for the Bible says faith is not works, but you are doing more than just making a choice, you're also assuming you were irresistibly selected, so you are doing something God never asked you to do, which is to assume. God said choose, not assume. Your salvation is Satanic grace + Assume like the great Assumption of Mary. Since the Bible only ever teaches repentance and faith before regeneration it should not be an issue if you came to God with an honest heart. When one looks back upon your alleged regeneration we know it is not of God because it is not in agreement with God's word, thus not in agreement with the Christian experience either. We testify to you that how you claim to be saved that is not how we were saved and how we experienced our salvation. Amen. Realize you worship a false Christ that irresistibly imposes a false regeneration on you which is born out in your testimony and its evil nature of thinking God uses preterition and irresistible grace. What love is that if it is evil for us to be that way? You have arose in Satan's arms. The sinner is dead in sin, but God's Spirit works to convict and convince a person he needs payment which he cannot pay. This grace travels throughout the whole world and not just some of the world. In fact, even if a person never heard of the law of Moses, they would still know better because God has given them a conscience and His Spirit works everywhere. And so you are not saved because the Bible says regeneration is after repentance and faith, not before. Since you admit freely by your creaturely will that you never had the choice, therefore, you admit you never received Christ. Jesus didn't pick someone unsaved to resurrect. He picked someone who was already a believer. Never does the Bible teach initial salvation is at resurrection (that's your dumb argument about Lazarus), but we whom are saved are resurrected already in spirit, have eternal life and saved by grace through faith alone. Resurrection of the saved is separated from the resurrected of the damned by a thousand years. God is not using preterition when He resurrects you a thousand years after the saved, for you long since already made your choice to be eternally separated from God. Can't you see Lazarus was not saved when he got resurrected? He already was saved in Christ. Only in this synergy and compatibilism do we find then does God save by "grace alone". He is relational in His 3 Persons so He is relational with us. No robots.


Even if God did tyranically impose his will on me, I would have no complaints and no cause to judge God. Thus, I don't understand why you are so hostile to my views. However, Calvainists don't believe God "imposes" damnation on innocent people; you have a fundemantal misunderstanding of Calvinism. First, there are no innocent people. You falsely think that predestination means man is no longer responsible for his sin but that it's somehow God's fault. But this is not what Calvinism teaches, nor what Calvin wrote! God doesn't "force" me to be a sinner, he has just written the book of my life. Predestination could be compared to reading a novel; think about the characters in any novel. As you read the book page by page, the characters come to life in your mind. And as you read the story the characters make genuine, real choices even though their destiny is already written, because the author of that book wrote it a long time ago. What I'm saying is that predestination is compatible with a creaturely free will, just as the novel characters' "free" will is compatible with a finished book. Time is like this. Now, we're half way done reading the book, if you know what i mean. In other words, we don't have to be absolutely free from God's decree to have a creaturely free will. Are the charactesr in that book "passive" or encouraged to live in "passivity" even though their destiny is written? No, so neither does God's decree encourage my passivinity.
See how corrupted your morals are. You say if whatever you are worshiping "tyrannically" did "impose" on you, you would have no complaint. You sound like you were abused as a child who still wants to be abused. Again, it is evil for us to be this way towards one another, so it is evil for your god whether you like being under his influence or not. You are like your father the devil. The reason I stand up against your views is because you deceive people. Fine, you want to go to Hell, but stop misleading others, for nowhere do we find in the Bible we can't repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. I don't believe in your kind of predestination of irresistible grace. I believe God predestinates by foreknowing our free choice since in the Bible God pleads with us, so therefore, we must have the right to respond. Would man be responsible if he had no choice in the matter? Would it be God's fault if He preteritioned and regenerated irresistibly? Of course it would be. This is what Calvin taught, what Augustine taught, and what other Calvinists taught. You guys use the words "preterition" and "irresistible grace". The calvinism god does force you to be a sinner because he supplies no grace to the preteritioned. But really you are doing this to yourself, not God, since God never asked you to assume you were irresistibly selected. He said come to the cross to be saved. You are not some mindless book being written to watch on replay, you are a sovereign free willed being God created in His image. Your insensitive novel writing is not how God sees us, but as interpersonal beings who were not destined to do this or that just because God could foresee our free choices. God has a plan to be with those who love Him, to fellowship for eternity not as a robots as you would have us be in your novel. That God can foresee all things in no way suggests He makes these things to happen as in some novel. He sees us a free willed beings to relate to out of His glory. This a reverence for God you don't have. To you we are just an assembly line. That will never do. God is way bigger than that. Fortunately those who are saved and pillars of the New City will finally be able to get rid of such mentality, because Calvinists will be in Hell by then. What Calvinism is is exalting man's self above God by man trying to think he has got into God's mind about how God really works. You're on the road to perdition, because God can see how you are exalting yourself to Him by doing that. Realize free will is within God's providence, it is not outside God's design, so when you reject God as you do by being a Calvinist as other cults reject God in their ways, you're just being afforded one of those options God allows to allow for free will to be truly free. Passivity like a zombie is the inescapable nature of a Calvinist who assumes he was irresistibly elected, since it was never his choice he claims, he can't help but live his life like that. As is the false generation so is the false life. Though you have seared your conscience to have empathy an compassion to understand this, just know that even though you can't understand what I am saying, Christians concur you are going to Hell, because you don't want to be saved God's way. We find you unhealthy to be around because we can sense this false regeneration in you. This is hard to understand I know, but you have made your decision already, now you want to understand why you want to go to Hell. You may not admit it of course, but this place you want to go to is none other than Hell.


I just have to laugh at some things you say, not becaues I'm disrespectful, but because I just find your straw man arguments against Calvinism hysterical. What Calvinist that you know denies the necessity of repentance and faith? If you think Calvinism means "I'm slected, so I don't have to repent," then you're sorely mistaken. Calvinism looks more like this: "I'm a sinner deserving eternal death. But God, in his great grace, loved me before the foundation of the world and showed me life by deciding to save my sinful soul. I was not chosen because I'm more special than anyone else, but solely from God's gracious will as Creator and I his creature. Thus, because I am selected by his unmerited love, and that unconditionally, I need to live for him by faith and repent from sin continually in order to please the Author of my Salvation."
What the Calvinist denies is Biblical repentance and faith. "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Pet. 3.9). Think how evil God would be that He would want all to come to repentance but nonetheless passes over people so there is no opportunity for them. I can't impress upon you enough the fact that it is like sirens going off that you are not saved. It's like you got a big sign on your head that says you want to be saved this other way, not God's way, God's way is too boring. You would like to do some mental gymnastics to twist things around a bit for this cult of yours, you know, spice things up with some delusion. It's sort of a party spirit. True repentance and faith if it is true comes before regeneration. "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out" (Acts 3.19). The Bible is so clear and so plain on this issue, so to shirk it is to admit you are going to Hell. What Calvinists consider repentance to us is not true repentance to Christians, because you did not come into the fold by repentance as we did, but you came by the prideful self-meriting assumption of irresistible Satanic grace. Sure a Calvinist can claim to be repentant after his alleged irresistible regeneration, but it's not true repentance for how you came in is how you will depart. A looking back upon one's salvation in no way confers irresistible regeneration. When I look back upon my new birth, I see that I was fallen in need of a Savior, accepting all things summed up in Christ, but my new birth was not imposed on me as yours was. Or should I saw, I was not saved your way in which you allowed to be irresistibly overtaken. The preceding conditions were that I was made in God's image, His Holy Spirit is always working, I have free will made in His image, His grace was sufficient for us all, and I have a choice like all men do to come to the cross as a helpless sinner with an honest heart. This is not to say my heart was sinless, only that the necessary requirements God sets out were met in coming to the cross to be saved by grace through faith. The union was real. And in so doing God is with us every step of the way. The condition was fulfilled, God is overjoyed. He has recovered another. Grace comes upon and my innerman is quickened with His uncreated life. You did not have this experience. You had Satan implant his facsimile in you which you accepted. It is sorta like Pentecostal gibberish babblers accepting any old spirit that comes along and claiming that to be the gift of tongues and many even call it the baptism of the Holy Spirit, when in fact the gift of tongues is always the gift of languages to spread the word of God to the nations and as a witness people can be saved in other languages. I told you this so you can see how they twist you twist and both are a false regeneration. Just like the gibberish babbler can't let go of this demon that holds them in gibberish babble, you can't let go of the pride of irresistible selection and thinking you were not one of those poor folks who were preteritioned. You guys want to be controlled and be passively manipulated into these false faiths. The same spirit they commune with for their gibberish babble is ultimately the same spirit you commune with for it comes from the Devil. Each of you have a relationship with something God wants no part of. Since you will never change your mind what can God do but send you to Hell for eternally to be eternally separated from Him? As you wish. The pride you exude when you say God chose you and and preteritioned others has nothing to do with mercy and the love of God. It has to do with a false salvation you entered into because irresistible grace is a Satanic lie and so is preterition. God's grace will never work the way you want it to work. At the end of the day, admittedly, what you still refuse to do is repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Since you admit you never repented and believed in Christ to be regenerated no matter what idols and excuses you put up that say you could not, the fact remains you did not and therefore, are going to Hell. And that's truly sad that this the kind of person you want to be. But you can't blame God. You have nobody to blame but yourself when you merit your own salvation by assuming you were irresistibly selected. My prayers go out to you for you know not what you do.

[Churchwork]

Calvinism is dumbed down Christianity because Calvinists don't really love God. They prefer the deck stacked and easy-believism. They love their manipulation attempts of God's word which is love of self. It's all in the head, but they are as far away from God as ever with their spirits dead to God. If anyone is unsaved in Christendom it would be Karl Barth and the rest of the Calvinists.

[dejan2116]

Calvinism is dumbed down Christianity because Calvinists don't really love God. They prefer the deck stacked and easy-believism. They love their manipulation attempts of God's word which is love of self. It's all in the head, but they are as far away from God as ever with their spirits dead to God. If anyone is unsaved in Christendom it would be Karl Barth and the rest of the Calvinists.

Are you even a little bit troubled at how easily you pass judgement on the souls of men? The same as you do to others it shall be done to you. Barth isn't here to defend himself. But he was a brilliant theologian. Because you judge so quickly, I can see how much you really love God and man alright. You say Calvinists don't love God, but have you read any book of Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion which are entirely focused on the love of God? News flash: Calvin wrote more about the love of God than most protestant and even Catholic theologians.

In regards to your judgments, I'm a Protestant and believe in justification by means of faith alone, but I would never be so foolish and ignorant to condemn all Roman Catholics to hell just because they bear that name since I don't know the state of their hearts. Yet you think just because someone is a Calvinist they're going to hell. Where is wisdom in this? Apparently you know the state of Karl Barth's heart so well that you feel it necessary to condemn him to hell. Smarten up. Everything you know about Calvinism has been filtered through the bogus interpretations of anti-Calvinists. I don't get the feeling that you ever sat down and actually labored to understand Calvinism from Calvin himself or any other Calvinist source. You claim so much to love God, but do you put enough effort in loving human beings when you so easily condemn them to hell even though you haven't taken the time to fairly examine what they say? The author of this thread makes the same mistake.

[Churchwork]

I pass no judgment, but you disclose your condition willingly and thus, pass judgment upon yourself that you want to be eternally separated from God. What truth I speak about the evils of Calvinism I am not guilty of because I am not a Calvinist. To you it may seem like I judge quickly, when to me I am judging slowly with mercifully and gracefully, long-suffering and with a peaceful heart. However brilliant Karl was, he was not saved. We are not so much concerned with who is a dullard and who is ingenuous, but we are concerned with conscience. Is it quickened or not? If it not, how can we encourage you to receive Christ? If it is, how can we disclose more of Him? If you want to talk about brilliance, then go to Watchman Nee who is considered by some to have had the highest IQ in the history of Christendom and a photographic memory with a library of over 3000 Christian books and himself wrote 70 books. He was an OSAS Arminian. He even miraculously recovered from near death. If you read what happened it is truly amazing. On his deathbed for 176 days and the doctor pronounced he only had a few months to live. The doctor didn't even want to take another ex-ray because it was irreversible and only getting worse. Now that's what I call a miracle and a martyr because he was imprisoned the last 20 years of his life. People remember authentic experiences. It touches us deeply. http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/neeosasarminian.htm

I am not interested in a competition among sinners, RCs, Lutherans, but as I understand it and from what I have read, Calvin almost never talked about the love of God in his Institutes. I know you brought that up because many scholars have noted Calvin hardly if ever talks about the love of God.

A Roman Catholic if you talk to them and they tell you Mary was sinless, the 1000 years is now, that they could lose salvation, add books to the 66 books of the Bible, stick to transubstantiation, priests can't be married, indulgences, infant baptism, Popery, you can be sure they are not saved. They are part of the great harlot of religious Rome that makes drunk the nations with the wine of the wrath of her fornications (Rev. 14.8). I don't see any of the Popes ever being born-again, nor that murderous Protestant Pope of Geneva. Realize they condemn themselves to Hell just as you condemn yourself to Hell. Blame yourself. Blame Satan for deceiving you. You may take pride in not being able to discern by the Holy Spirit as I can, but that doesn't change the fact what the Holy Spirit has clearly shown me.

I wouldn't say all Calvinists are going to Hell, just the vast majority, probably over 99% of them, because they refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Karl Barth convicts himself. You can find out what he believes on Wiki. He might as well wear a big sign on his head that says, "I don't want to be saved God's way!" Those Calvinists that could be said are the ones that are sorta on the fence, uncommitted Calvinists as it were. But once you go down the hard path of Calvinism you can be sure you are not saved.

My initiation realization of the evils of Calvinism was from reading the Bible, not from anti-Calvinists. The Holy Spirit worked in my spirit to know some great evil was working. Reading others only further enhanced and substantiated what the Holy Spirit already showed me in the word of God as the word of God so aptly proves.

Calvin discloses his beliefs time and again, quote after quote. You are searching hard to make an excuse but it is not that complicated. Irresistible regeneration and preterition are a lie straight from the Devil's mouth. If evil for us to act like that, it's evil for your god. That you think this is how reality works shows you are lost.

I have taken the time, and it is because of the love God instilled in me I tell you these truths because I would not wish upon my worst enemy where you are going.

Please stop using ad hominems, it's boring. Try to at least back up something you saying instead of being like Satan that great accuser who accuses the brethren day and night (Rev. 12.10).

"While the promise of entering His rest remains, let us fear lest any of you be judged to have failed to reach it. For the good news came...but the message which they heard did not benefit them, because it did not meet with faith in the hearers. For [only] we who have believed enter that rest" (Heb. 4.1-3).

[dejan2116]

Calvin had Michael Servetus killed and wanted him dead badly and many others with arguments that the state enacted. You're delusional, shutting your mind down like a zombie for Satan. You are so evil you have no idea. Calvin said, "If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight." You're a like a rapist who convinces himself he never raped anyone.

I'll just ignore this because there is not an honest Calvin scholar on the planet who would agree with you. Where did you get that quote from? Cite the source and we'll deal with it.



A person who is born a sinner is not his own fault (you avoided this point) so that is not the reason he deserves to go to Hell. Rather, he deserves to go to Hell because like you, he refuses to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated once reaching the age accountability. Everyone deserves a right to be saved if they fulfill the condition. If it is unrighteous of us to behave otherwise to fellow human beings, then it is evil for your god and you. Two kids are playing in quicksand, having fun, not realizing they quicksand is about to overtake them and they will die, but your god extends rope out to one of them and not the other. Your god, Satan, is gloried in laughing at the one who dies and saves the other for no good reason. Now you are not going to Hell because you admit man is a sinner. You are going to Hell because you worship an evil god who sends people to Hell for the sole reason they were born into sin as not being their own fault and because you personally refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Just think how evil it is to think like Hitler the Jews should get no opportunity to escape. Hitler thought it was "nonsensical" to give the Jews an opportunity to escape. God provides sufficient grace to us all, so it is not true all men would wallow in sin and refuse salvation, for here I am as a witness I do not wallow in sin but have received what the Lord Jesus did for me as do many others, yet you still do not. You wallow in sin, the idol of Total depravity. What makes you think Christians choose God apart from God? Think. You're just being like the Devil accusing for that is not what Christians believe. We believe God gives us the grace to be able to respond even though we are fallen, and because we are fallen He does this for all mankind. This how great God's love is, a love you don't know. It is because God is big enough that He can give grace to all men so all men can respond freely. But your god can't do this because he is not God. Someone born into sin not of his own doing is not innocent of that nature? If God doesn't respond with grace and mercy then God is to blame. How can someone be guilty of that which is not their fault? Did you bring yourself into the world and given yourself a sin nature when you were in your mother's womb? You're sick. You are like someone who keeps accusing their friend of doing something they never did. What kind of friend are you? Calvinism is very man-centered because man in this world declares "I am" this or "I am" that just like Calvinism and without true repentance, exalting himself on high. Nothing could be more humanistic. God is guilty and would actually be Satan if God was your god because God never blames anyone for anything that is not their fault. Satan is the great accuser, the great false accuser. You are going to Hell.

Just as Christ is the head of the Church and is its Saviour, so also Adam is the head of fallen humanity and is its condemnation, as Romans 5 teaches. Therefore, since Adam represented all humanity, all humanity is justly condemned for the sin of Adam, get it? So a person who is born a sinner is to blame simply because he is under Adam, even though he had nothing to do with the circumstances of his birth, just as a person who's saved is saved because he's under Christ--this is headship theology. There's an age of accountability? That's news to me. Where did you get this from the Bible? Nobody deserves the right to be saved. Where did you get this from the Bible? In your analogy you assume that the person in quicksand is innocent. It actually looks more like this: Two sinners who hate God will all their heart, soul, mind, and strength, are drowning in quicksand. As the holy God walks by, the sinners spit at him and shake their fists because they cannot bear to look upon holiness. God looks at the two sinners who are equally condemned and decides to impart grace on the one and the leave the other to his own desires. So now that you really understand Calvinism from this biblical analogy, please show me how this is unjust, and why this God is Satan.

The only reason you have received the grace of God is because God opened your blind eyes and sin-captive heart. That's why you don't wallow in your sin. This is all Calvinism is, and when you call it "heresy" I have to laugh again. Give him the glory, not to your fallen human will. Your will was dead and you were a slave to sin, but Jesus set you free and gave you a new will by which you received his grace, through faith, and were justified by his grace alone. This is Calvinism. I think the Lord Jesus wants you to finally give him the credit for your salvation, rather than boasting in your decision, because your decision didn't come first; he first opened your dead heart, and then afterwards imparted a new will within you by which you chose for Jesus. In other words, your regeneration came before your choosing; John 3:16-20 teaches that the unregenerate heart doesn't even THINK about choosing God but loves evil, and first must be regenerated. This is biblical Calvinism, which you call heresy.


A robot is one that moves this way or that not of his own accord just like the evil god of calvinism moves one to be irresistibly regenerated (you are not addressing this, please respond in kind instead of evading the point). This is what is meant by robots. You may not want to admit it but your god is the god of robots. Free will is not truly free will if people are not afforded the choice (you're avoiding this point). Free will is not free if a person is irresistibly made to do something or born into sin and preteritioned, passed over like a piece of meat. These are just the characteristics of Satan trying to simulate God's grace. Calvinists don't merely only say God's decree gives us free will, but look behind what they are saying. Their kind of free will doesn't really exist because no free will is exhibited in preterition and irresistible grace. You can't have it both ways. You can't impose irresistible regeneration and preterition and then at the same time say man has a free will. That's doubletalk. The Bible says be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8). Don't shirk away from this. God is the one who saves alone, but your choice is required. You've got a doublestandard (which you don't address) when you say man merits his salvation by receiving Christ but you don't merit salvation by your assumption you were irresistibly selected. I would say faith as a choice is not works, for the Bible says faith is not works, but you are doing more than just making a choice, you're also assuming you were irresistibly selected, so you are doing something God never asked you to do, which is to assume. God said choose, not assume. Your salvation is Satanic grace + Assume like the great Assumption of Mary. Since the Bible only ever teaches repentance and faith before regeneration it should not be an issue if you came to God with an honest heart. When one looks back upon your alleged regeneration we know it is not of God because it is not in agreement with God's word, thus not in agreement with the Christian experience either. We testify to you that how you claim to be saved that is not how we were saved and how we experienced our salvation. Amen. Realize you worship a false Christ that irresistibly imposes a false regeneration on you which is born out in your testimony and its evil nature of thinking God uses preterition and irresistible grace. What love is that if it is evil for us to be that way? You have arose in Satan's arms. The sinner is dead in sin, but God's Spirit works to convict and convince a person he needs payment which he cannot pay. This grace travels throughout the whole world and not just some of the world. In fact, even if a person never heard of the law of Moses, they would still know better because God has given them a conscience and His Spirit works everywhere. And so you are not saved because the Bible says regeneration is after repentance and faith, not before. Since you admit freely by your creaturely will that you never had the choice, therefore, you admit you never received Christ. Jesus didn't pick someone unsaved to resurrect. He picked someone who was already a believer. Never does the Bible teach initial salvation is at resurrection (that's your dumb argument about Lazarus), but we whom are saved are resurrected already in spirit, have eternal life and saved by grace through faith alone. Resurrection of the saved is separated from the resurrected of the damned by a thousand years. God is not using preterition when He resurrects you a thousand years after the saved, for you long since already made your choice to be eternally separated from God. Can't you see Lazarus was not saved when he got resurrected? He already was saved in Christ. Only in this synergy and compatibilism do we find then does God save by "grace alone". He is relational in His 3 Persons so He is relational with us. No robots.

You have a skewed view of predestination and predetermination. Is God forcing me to write this message to you now? No. But he has decreed it, and this is why there's a purpose in it. Just because he decrees something does not mean he hasn't given me a genuine creaturely will that feels free in the human realm--the decree is still being lived out by human beings, so to us it feels as if we make our own destinies, but to God all is already written. This is Calvinism. Thus, all we Calvinists are saying is that this human will, although "free" from the human point of view, is NOT actually free in God's point of view because God decreed time. How is this heresy? No Calvinist believes we are just robots, except maybe hyper-Calvinists. Free will means the ability to choose, and humans do have that ability to choose, but, as John 3:18-20 teaches, in ultimate issues like salvation they ALWAYS choose evil rather than good, and that's because their will is corrupt. I'm the one saying they need a new will in order to choose, but you are the one saying they can choose the truest good (that is, the gospel) by their old, corrupted will that is only "wooed" rather than "replaced" by God's Spirit. Which view is actually heresy? I think yours, and history backs me up on this point. You only think I'm using double talk because you are interpreting the unfathomable decree of God in predestination through limited human reason, so of course the majesty of God's decree doesn't fully make sense to you; even though it makes sense to me, it doesn't fully make sense to me either, but I still believe it because it's biblical.

I'm not saying man merits salvation by receiving Christ. We receive the free gift of his grace by the MEANS of faith, not "because" of faith. Faith is only the instrument of that reception, not its cause. Thus, salvation is by grace alone. This is what "faith alone" means. It doesn't mean I'm saved because of the merits of my faith--faith has no merits here because it is not giving but receiving. The fact that you call fallen man a "sovereign being" says it all; it makes sense with your view to lift up man and put down God, which is why you lift up man's will but put down God's will (election, predestination), and this is what you call biblical???


See how corrupted your morals are. You say if whatever you are worshiping "tyrannically" did "impose" on you, you would have no complaint. You sound like you were abused as a child who still wants to be abused. Again, it is evil for us to be this way towards one another, so it is evil for your god whether you like being under his influence or not. You are like your father the devil. The reason I stand up against your views is because you deceive people. Fine, you want to go to Hell, but stop misleading others, for nowhere do we find in the Bible we can't repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. I don't believe in your kind of predestination of irresistible grace. I believe God predestinates by foreknowing our free choice since in the Bible God pleads with us, so therefore, we must have the right to respond. Would man be responsible if he had no choice in the matter? Would it be God's fault if He preteritioned and regenerated irresistibly? Of course it would be. This is what Calvin taught, what Augustine taught, and what other Calvinists taught. You guys use the words "preterition" and "irresistible grace". The calvinism god does force you to be a sinner because he supplies no grace to the preteritioned. But really you are doing this to yourself, not God, since God never asked you to assume you were irresistibly selected. He said come to the cross to be saved. You are not some mindless book being written to watch on replay, you are a sovereign free willed being God created in His image. Your insensitive novel writing is not how God sees us, but as interpersonal beings who were not destined to do this or that just because God could foresee our free choices. God has a plan to be with those who love Him, to fellowship for eternity not as a robots as you would have us be in your novel. That God can foresee all things in no way suggests He makes these things to happen as in some novel. He sees us a free willed beings to relate to out of His glory. This a reverence for God you don't have. To you we are just an assembly line. That will never do. God is way bigger than that. Fortunately those who are saved and pillars of the New City will finally be able to get rid of such mentality, because Calvinists will be in Hell by then. What Calvinism is is exalting man's self above God by man trying to think he has got into God's mind about how God really works. You're on the road to perdition, because God can see how you are exalting yourself to Him by doing that. Realize free will is within God's providence, it is not outside God's design, so when you reject God as you do by being a Calvinist as other cults reject God in their ways, you're just being afforded one of those options God allows to allow for free will to be truly free. Passivity like a zombie is the inescapable nature of a Calvinist who assumes he was irresistibly elected, since it was never his choice he claims, he can't help but live his life like that. As is the false generation so is the false life. Though you have seared your conscience to have empathy an compassion to understand this, just know that even though you can't understand what I am saying, Christians concur you are going to Hell, because you don't want to be saved God's way. We find you unhealthy to be around because we can sense this false regeneration in you. This is hard to understand I know, but you have made your decision already, now you want to understand why you want to go to Hell. You may not admit it of course, but this place you want to go to is none other than Hell.

God can kill anyone at any time he wants because life belongs to him. I can't kill because life doesn't belong to me. This is why murder is prohibited FOR MEN in the OT. God can do things I can't, so it is not true that "if it is evil for us, it is evil for God", sorry. Fallen man won't accept the opportunity for salvation unless his fallen will is REPLACED (not wooed) by the Spirit of God, so you labor in vain by trying to safeguard this worthless doctrine of yours that didn't save you or anyone else on the planet. If you are saved, it's because God replaced your will, even though you stubbornly refuse to see this. It's sad how you forfeit the biblical doctrines of predestination and irresistible grace for the foolish and impractical doctrine of autonomous, fallen free will.


What the Calvinist denies is Biblical repentance and faith. "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Pet. 3.9). Think how evil God would be that He would want all to come to repentance but nonetheless passes over people so there is no opportunity for them. I can't impress upon you enough the fact that it is like sirens going off that you are not saved. It's like you got a big sign on your head that says you want to be saved this other way, not God's way, God's way is too boring. You would like to do some mental gymnastics to twist things around a bit for this cult of yours, you know, spice things up with some delusion. It's sort of a party spirit. True repentance and faith if it is true comes before regeneration. "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out" (Acts 3.19). The Bible is so clear and so plain on this issue, so to shirk it is to admit you are going to Hell. What Calvinists consider repentance to us is not true repentance to Christians, because you did not come into the fold by repentance as we did, but you came by the prideful self-meriting assumption of irresistible Satanic grace. Sure a Calvinist can claim to be repentant after his alleged irresistible regeneration, but it's not true repentance for how you came in is how you will depart. A looking back upon one's salvation in no way confers irresistible regeneration. When I look back upon my new birth, I see that I was fallen in need of a Savior, accepting all things summed up in Christ, but my new birth was not imposed on me as yours was. Or should I saw, I was not saved your way in which you allowed to be irresistibly overtaken. The preceding conditions were that I was made in God's image, His Holy Spirit is always working, I have free will made in His image, His grace was sufficient for us all, and I have a choice like all men do to come to the cross as a helpless sinner with an honest heart. This is not to say my heart was sinless, only that the necessary requirements God sets out were met in coming to the cross to be saved by grace through faith. The union was real. And in so doing God is with us every step of the way. The condition was fulfilled, God is overjoyed. He has recovered another. Grace comes upon and my innerman is quickened with His uncreated life. You did not have this experience. You had Satan implant his facsimile in you which you accepted. It is sorta like Pentecostal gibberish babblers accepting any old spirit that comes along and claiming that to be the gift of tongues and many even call it the baptism of the Holy Spirit, when in fact the gift of tongues is always the gift of languages to spread the word of God to the nations and as a witness people can be saved in other languages. I told you this so you can see how they twist you twist and both are a false regeneration. Just like the gibberish babbler can't let go of this demon that holds them in gibberish babble, you can't let go of the pride of irresistible selection and thinking you were not one of those poor folks who were preteritioned. You guys want to be controlled and be passively manipulated into these false faiths. The same spirit they commune with for their gibberish babble is ultimately the same spirit you commune with for it comes from the Devil. Each of you have a relationship with something God wants no part of. Since you will never change your mind what can God do but send you to Hell for eternally to be eternally separated from Him? As you wish. The pride you exude when you say God chose you and and preteritioned others has nothing to do with mercy and the love of God. It has to do with a false salvation you entered into because irresistible grace is a Satanic lie and so is preterition. God's grace will never work the way you want it to work. At the end of the day, admittedly, what you still refuse to do is repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Since you admit you never repented and believed in Christ to be regenerated no matter what idols and excuses you put up that say you could not, the fact remains you did not and therefore, are going to Hell. And that's truly sad that this the kind of person you want to be. But you can't blame God. You have nobody to blame but yourself when you merit your own salvation by assuming you were irresistibly selected. My prayers go out to you for you know not what you do.

Ah, Gobbledygook! No Calvinist denies biblical repentance and faith. Read John Calvin's Institutes and read the truth of what he said. When the bible speaks of "repent and be converted" it doesn't mean "by your work of repentance, not God's grace, God will save you," as if it's a works alone salvation. Yet this is how you use this text. If it doesn't mean this, then it doesn't support your views. All we Calvinists are affirming is what Ezekiel affirmed about the old heart that is REPLACED (not wooed) by a NEW HEART (Ezekiel 36:26), yet if you want to keep that old heart and its corrupted will suit yourself. How is this Calvinist view heresy? Show me chapter and verse. You feel like you were doing the work of salvation because you are looking at your salvation through the limited eyes of man, and for reasons unknown to me, you deny to look at salvation through God's eyes. Do you even know what "irresistible grace" really means? It does NOT mean that I "cannot resist" God's grace because he forces it upon me. (To call God raising a sinner from the dead "forcing salvation" is a misnomer, but that's another matter). Rather, it means "I WILL not resist" because his work in my heart is effectual. In other words, "if he calls me from death to life, he wont fail to make himself so "irresistibly" beautiful to me, which will cause me to without fail accept him. His grace is "irresistible and effectual," not resistible and ineffectual, yet you falsely think "If I can't choose to reject God then I'm a robot!" What a boorish way to look at salvation! Your view takes away the glory of God, because you say that God can fail to save a sinner since salvation is conditional on human will. I say God cannot fail because he is irresistibly beautiful, and if he desires to save me--by replacing my old will with the new-- I will without fail choose his grace over my sin. This is irresistible grace--the fact that when grace is imparted it can never be taken away-- and boy is it so beautiful a doctrine that I can do nothing but worship my Sovereign God. Why is irresistible grace therefore a heresy?

[dejan2116]

You might think you're being led by the Spirit, but believe me, you're not. You might be led by the Spirit in other ways, but you're definitely being led by your own desires and prejudices when it comes to Calvinism. Believe me, I used to despise Calvinism also, until I actually studied it more deeply and found the sweet aroma of the gospel within its doctrines. See how God's truth overcame my prejudice? Out of love of the truth I accepted as truth what I hated and despised. Also, when I was a King James Onlyist I also believed myself led by the Spirit of God, but later found out that I was actually led by my own fears and prejudices, and God faithfully found a better way for me, and ever since I came out of idolizing the King James Bible I've been blessed. I don't really care who is going to heaven or hell; that's not what I focus on. But for you to say that 99% of Calvinists are going to hell is just poppycock. Do you really think being saved "God's way" is by his Spirit wooing my corrupted and fallen will to accept Jesus? I doubt it. Real salvation God's way is Paul's conversion on the road when the Sovereign Jesus didn't at all care what Paul wanted or desired by his "free will" and simply converted him out of the mass that is fallen humanity. God convert's sinners; sinners don't convert themselves. Now you may take passages in the Bible out of context to argue against this(e.g. Acts 3:19) but this is horrendous biblical interpretation.

What is faith to you? Something that I do, that I muster from my own will-power? If this is your faith, let it never come near me. Real faith is a gift from God, something outside of us, something that does NOT come naturally to us fallen creatures with corrupted wills. Tell me one thing: Why do you place the doctrine of the corrupt human will as the center point of your theology? WHY do you want to keep this doctrine? Do you think the doctrine of free will is the center of the Bible? Is this what the Bible is about, man, and his will? Sorry, the Bible is really about God and his will.

[Parture]

I'll just ignore this because there is not a honest Calvin scholar on the planet who would agree with you. Where did you get that quote from? Cite the source and we'll deal with it.
That's a dumb comment. Calvin himself said it. It's such a popular quote too. The source is all over the internet. That you are asking me what the source is shows you are really being dumb when you claim to know what he said. I have scores and scores of quotes of his murderous pursuits and verbeage. Take the quote and put it into a search engine and on the first page of Google you will see the source.


Just as Christ is the head of the Church and is its Saviour, so also Adam is the head of fallen humanity and is its condemnation, as Romans 5 teaches. Therefore, since Adam represented all humanity, all humanity is justly condemned for the sin of Adam, get it? So a person who is born a sinner is to blame because he is under Adam, even though he had nothing to do with the circumstances of his birth--this is headship theology. There's an age of accountability? That's news to me. Where did you get that from the Bible? Nobody deserves the right to be saved. Where did you get this from the Bible? In your analogy you assume that the person in quicksand is innocent. It actually looks more like this: Two sinners who hate God will all their heart, soul, mind, and strength, are drowning in quicksand. As the holy God walks by, the sinners spit at him and shake their fists because they cannot bear to look upon holiness. God looks at the two sinners who are equally condemned and decides to impart grace on the one and the leave the other to his own desires. So now that you really understand Calvinism from this biblical analogy, please show me how this is unjust, and why this God is Satan.It's unjust to provide no grace because they were born that way. What you are teaching is gnosticism, that is, being created by an evil god. God is obligated to provide mercy and grace sufficient for us all, just as the verses I quoted you say. This is who God is. He is merciful and loving an would want none to perish. But you say He wants people to perish and gives them no way out. You are like Hitler towards the Jews with your god, after all your god is just a reflection of you. To round out your theory, see if you can find a specific verse that specifically says we are all condemned to Hell because we are born into sin rather than because we do sin and refuse His mercy. You don't believe in the time of recompense? What do you think Revelation 20.4 is talking about? Why are Christians called to overcometh if there are no consequences and commensurate rewards given in Revelation 2 & 3 if there is no age of accountability? I am sad to hear you reject the Jesus who will return to reign on earth for 1000 years. Perhaps you deny this because you are you think irresistibly selected like a robot.


The only reason you have received the grace of God is because God opened your blind eyes and sin-captive heart. That's why you don't wallow in your sin. This is all Calvinism is, and when you call it "heresy" I have to laugh again. Give him the glory, not to your fallen human will. Your will was dead and you were a slave to sin, but Jesus set you free and gave you a new will by which you received his grace, through faith, and were justified by his grace alone. This is Calvinism. I think the Lord Jesus wants you to finally give him the credit for your salvation, rather than boasting in your decision, because your decision didn't come first; he first opend your dead heart first, and then afterwards imparted a new will within your by which you chose for Jesus. Your regeneration came before your choosing; John 3:16-20 teaches that the unregenerate heart doesn't even THINK about choosing God but loves evil, and first must be regenerated. This is biblical Calvinism, which you call heresy.You got it backwards. The reason why God opened my eyes is because of the aforementioned sufficient grace and coming to God with an honest heart to see I need a Savior in Jesus by what He did for us; whereas others such as yourself do not. That's how God set it up. That's how He does this. He is relational. Think of it this way. If you had a choice to create God's way or the way you describe which would be better? Clearly it would be better to give us all the choice to interact and commune with free willed beings. That makes for a much more vibrant and lively creation and doesn't dumb it down like Calvinism does. You're giving your will all the glory because all you needed to do to be saved was pridefully assume you were irresistibly selected without repentance. I don't have a doublestandard like you when you claim you were irresistibly selected while accusing Christians of receiving what Jesus did for us. You can't see the conflict in that can you? You simply have a false faith one which you did not have to repent to the cross as a helpless sinner to be saved. Instead you boast of being irresistibly selected. John 3 doesn't agree with you, for we read that we are called to look upon that snake on the pole and whosoever is willing can be saved. Nothing about what you said about the unregenerated man being unable to receive what Jesus did for us.


You have a skewed view of predestination and predetermination. Is God forcing me to write this message to you now? No. But he has decreed it, and this is why there's a purpose in it. Just because he decrees something does not mean he hasn't given me a genuine creaturely will that feels free in the human real and that concurs with his decree. All we Calvinists are saying is that this human will is NOT actually free in God's realm because God decreed time. How is this heresy? No Calvinist believes we are just robots, except maybe hyper-Calvinists. Free will means the ability to choose, and humans do have that ability to choose, but, as John 3:18-20 teaches, in ultimate issues like salvation they ALWAYS choose evil rather than good, and that's because their will is corrupt. I'm the one saying they need a new will in order to choose, but you are the one saying they can choose the truest good (that is, the gospel) by their old, corrupted will that is only "wooed" rather than "replaced" by God's Spirit. Which view is actually heresy? I think yours, and history backs me up on this point. You only think I'm using double talk because you are interpreting the unfathomable decree of God in predestination through limited human reason, so of course the majesty of God's decree doesn't fully make sense to you; even though it makes sense to me, it doesn't fully make sense to me either, but I still believe it because it's biblical. In God's realm, God created us all with free will. You do believe you are a robot because you said there is no free will in God's realm. Where does John 3.18-20 says man always chooses evil so that man can never choose what Jesus did for us on the cross? As you learn more about your Calvinism realize that the Calvinist must insert into the text that which is not there. If you take the plain text, you see God is pleading with us and that therefore we have a choice before us. What separates from receiving God is our own decision to be what we want to be. Our will is not replaced when we are born-again, it is rather, renewed. When you backtrack what is going on, you realize we are all made in God's image still, even though we are fallen, and by that image we have free will no matter how fallen it may be. God knows though the fallen will also needs His mercy and grace that is sufficient for us all. This is why none of us are "without excuse" towards His work, but under Calvinism a person would have an excuse because they were not given sufficient grace to have a genuine choice. God reveals His way of saving in the Bible. There are no verses for irresistible grace or preterition, but lots of verses for God's pleading, sufficient grace, and free will. Free will is mentioned over 4000 times in the Bible. What you have may make sense to you because that's what you want to be saved by the god you describe, but I would not. Calvinism is internally consistent, but the problem is it is false. It is evil to worship a God who doesn't provide sufficient grace to all. It is also lame to resort to claiming because God is infinite we can't understand His ways. He gives His word which obviously is so we can understand His plan and will.


I'm not saying man merits salvation by receiving Christ. We receive the free gift of his grace by the MEANS of faith, not "because" of faith. Faith is only the instrument of that reception, not its cause. Thus, salvation is by grace alone. This is what "faith alone" means. It doesn't mean I'm saved because of the merits of my faith--faith has no merits here because it is not giving but receiving. The fact that you call fallen man a "sovereign being" says it all; it makes sense with your view to lift up man and put down God, which is why you lift up man's will but put down God's will (election, predestination), and this is what you call biblical???Even "faith" is a gift of God that without we could never be saved either. We could not exist if He didn't create us in His image. We can all freely obtain this gift of faith if we search God out with all our hearts and souls. The reason you haven't found the God I have described to you in His word is because you have not searched Him out with all your heart and soul. You want a selfish salvation. Man truly is a sovereign being not a robot. You want to be an automaton, but God wants better than that. That's why He created you in His image. You're lifting up yourself when you exalt yourself to the world you are irresistibly selected without repentance. If a Christian were to engender that kind of thought we would feel ugly and grotesque inside, but you don't because you are not regenerated and you don't want to be. Not only are you lifting up yourself but you lift yourself up above all those others you think are going to Hell without any grace or mercy whatsoever. These two children of God in quicksand are just playing in the sand. They are kids. They are not even the age of accountability yet, but when they do reach the age of accountability even then still your god has no love. God does not predestinate and elect the way you want to Him. He can't, He won't. It goes totally against His nature. It's evil what you want. You're trying to be saved in your head, leaving your spirit unreachable by God.


God can kill anyone at any time he wants because life belongs to him. I can't kill because life doesn't belong to me. This is why murder is prohibited FOR MEN in the OT. God can do things I can't, so it is not true that "if it is evil for us, it is evil for God", sorry. Fallen man won't accept the opportunity for salvation unless his fallen will is REPLACED (not wooed) by the Spirit of God, so you labor in vain by trying to safeguard this worthless doctrine of yours that didn't save you or anyone else on the planet. If you are saved, it's because God replaced your will, even though you stubbornly refuse to see this. It's sad how you forfeit the biblical doctrines of predestination and irresistible grace for the foolish and impractical doctrine of autonomous, fallen free will. God can't kill anyone anytime He wants to because that would be evil. You keep giving God evil attributes. Don't you realize you are talking about Satan not God? You have a child, you ought not to kill him, but you say you can because this life belongs to you. Yes, if it is evil for us to do something, it is evil for God to do it, since His standards are not less than our own. God wooed me, He did not have to make me a robot. When I look back upon how Go wooed me it is most wonderful all the little things He did and all the times I resisted yet finally came around. My Christian friends are wooed not irresistibly imposed upon by your evil tyrant, so you labor in vain in trying to make us like you. True Christians can never become what you are now. God didn't replace my will but renewed it. Regeneration takes place in the spirit, quickened with new life, given eternal life, for the Holy Spirit to indwell. We still keep our spirit, but it is quickened and we are given a new spirit of eternal life for the Holy Spirit to indwell. Satan has told you that your will has been replaced. What's really going on with you is that you are demonically possessed, since that is what Satan does is replace wills, so you have given your will over to Satan for him to control it. What else can Jesus say to you except you are "condemned already" (John 3.18). That's a major difference how God works. He never possess your will and takes it over. Your consent is always required. Whereas Satan tries to posses it and take it over without your consent. Whenever you encounter a situation, sense how the spirit is working; if he is acting like Satan just described you know it is not of God, but the spirit is working with your decision in mind, then you know it is of God. Think how impractical it is to carry around the pride of always thinking you were irresistibly selected that stems from this demonic possession you are under. I would get no holy energy from that yet you do feed off that evil.


Ah, Gobbledygook! No Calvinist denies biblical repentance and faith. Read John Calvin's Institutes and read the truth of what he said. When the bible speaks of "repent and be converted" it doesn't mean "by your work of repentance, not God's grace, God will save you," as if it's a works alone salvation. Yet this is how you use this text. If it doesn't mean this, then it doesn't support your views. All we Calvinists are affirming is what Ezekiel affirmed about the old heart that is REPLACED (not wooed) by a NEW HEART (Ezekiel 36:26), yet if you want to keep that old heart and its corrupted will suit yourself. How is this Calvinist view heresy? Show me chapter and verse. You feel like you were doing the work of salvation because you are looking at your salvation through the limited eyes of man, and for reasons unknown to me, you deny to look at salvation through God's eyes. Do you even know what "irresistible grace" really means? It does NOT mean that I "cannot resist" God's grace because he forces it upon me. (To call god raising a sinner from the dead by his grace "forcing salvation" on him is nonsense, but that's another matter). No, rather it means "if he raises me from the dead, he wont fail to make himself so "irresistibly" beautiful to me that I will without fail accept him. Your view takes away the glory of God, because you say that God can fail to save a sinner. I say God cannot fail because his will is irresistibly beautiful, and if he desires to save me, I will be saved. Wake up and smell the coffee.What Calvinists call repentance and faith, Christians don't consider true repentance and faith, because it is irresistibly imposed and assumed, whereas we received these gifts because God's grace is sufficient and therefore we have the choice to freely obtain them. In order to receive a new heart and a new spirit you would have to genuinely receive what God did for us all. To receive would require true repentance and true faith, not by the pedestal you are on to declare pridefully to the world you were irresistibly selected and there was nothing you could do to refuse it. To get repentance and faith you must come to God with an honest heart. God makes Himself beautiful to everyone but the many such as yourself who reject His beauty and replace with subterranean thoughts of irresistible grace. You claim you were irresistibly made to love the god of Calvinism but in reality that's not true. You just invoke this false faith unto yourself because selfishly you don't want to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. I suppose you feel you would have to give up too much or you're just so afraid to give up control of self. It can be scary there is no doubt about it, because you have clinged to your self life for so long you don't anything else. You want a selfish salvation that much is clear; it is selfish to us if we were saved the way you want to be but it is not selfish to you because you put up a wall between you and God. God can't fail to save the sinner. I am saved. How has He failed? You reject this God. Why is God a failure because your choice to want to go to Hell? If God's will is irresistibly beautiful to everyone then everyone would be saved, so you contradict yourself again.

God is the "Savior of all men, specially those who believe" (1 Tim. 4.10) NOT "Savior of all men [to sustain men but not from Hell], specially those who believe". If God is the Savior of all men to sustain them, then certainly He is the Savior of all men from Hell "whosoever believeth" (John 3.16).

[Parture]

You might think you're being led by the Spirit, but believe me, you're not. You might be led by the Spirit in other ways, but you're definitely being led by your own desires and prejudices when it comes to Calvinism. Believe me, I used to despise Calvinism also, until I actually studied it more deeply and found the sweet aroma of the gospel within its doctrines. See how God's truth overcame my prejudice? Out of love of the truth I accepted as truth what I hated and despised. Also, when I was a King James Onlyist I also believed myself led by the Spirit of God, but later found out that I was actually led by my own fears and prejudices, and God faithfully found a better way for me, and ever since I came out of idolizing the King James Bible I've been blessed. I don't really care who is going to heaven or hell; that's not what I focus on. But for you to say that 99% of Calvinists are going to hell is just poppycock. Do you really think being saved "God's way" is by his Spirit wooing my corrupted and fallen will to accept Jesus? I doubt it. Real salvation God's way is Paul's conversion on the road when the Sovereign Jesus didn't at all care what Paul wanted or desired by his "free will" and simply converted him out of the mass that is fallen humanity. God convert's sinners; sinners don't convert themselves. Now you may take passages in the Bible out of context to argue against this(e.g. Acts 3:19) but this is horrendous biblical interpretation.
Trust me you are going to Hell because you refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. I haven't had any of your problems like KJV idolatry. I have always believed in the open Bible. What's interesting is none of the doctrines or beliefs I have had have chanced, for God keeps me in the truth. In other words, I never leaped-frogged into stuff and overassumed like you did. Perhaps you should consider you are making the same mistake again with Calvinism. What the Holy Spirit is telling me is that you were never saved to begin with, you found Christianity distasteful, so you wanted to construct something else and that became Calvinism for you, the pride of thinking you were irresistibly selected. You have a contradiction as well because you said you were saved some other way before than you are saved now under the way Calvinism teaches. You don't care that people are going to Hell which stands to reason because Calvinism is cold and heartless. It has no feeling to sense this is the worst thing possible for people. You don't know how to shed a tear for others because to you they are just being preteritioned like Hitler sent the Jews to the gas chambers. It's just part of your god's novel and you are a pawn in his game. I know you probably think you could be on the right track, but just know that there are a body of believers out there, a "little flock," who know that you have never been born-again and probably never will be. God's way is to woo and plead with us absolutely. Any other way would be unholy and unrighteous. God did not just convert Paul, but God like Peter said "Repent ye therefore, and be converted" (Acts 3.19). After giving a long discourse to convince, he then gives them the choice like God did with Paul, "Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?" to convince, to give Paul the choice. Realize why you are here. It's because there is an uneasiness in your own conscience about what you believe in, but take that to its conclusion and give your life to Christ, but before you do so you will have to rebuke Calvinism. You will have to say to God you don't want to be saved that way. You want this other Christ. You must choose the right Christ. Not the false Christ.


What is faith to you? Something that I do, that I muster from my own will-power? If this is your faith, let it never come near me. Real faith is a gift from God, something outside of us, something that does NOT come naturally to us fallen creatures with corrupted wills. Tell me one thing: Why do you place the doctrine of the corrupt human will as the center point of your theology? WHY do you want to keep this doctrine? Do you think the doctrine of free will is the center of the Bible? Is this what the Bible is about, man, and his will? Sorry, the Bible is really about God and his will.The will is not the center, God is the center, but for God to be the center He must give us the choice, for anything less is robots. God can surely do better than that and surely God wants to commune with sovereign free willed beings, not automatons and characters in a novel or a bunch of chess pieces He can move around or yank one kid out of the sand with a hook and kick the other down so he dies. What love is that? The beauty of God is His standards are always higher than ours. As good as we may think we are, He is always better. Ask yourself why you want to keep this false teaching of Total depravity and a god who is unable to provide sufficient grace to everyone to have the choice? Just know how you come across. The way you come across to others is that you erect this idol called Total depravity that says you can't repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated; therefore, what do you do? What you do is you take on the mistaken assumption, without repentance, to pridefully think you were irresistibly selected so you don't have to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. By assuming you could not repent it appeases your conscience with this idol, but it can only smother it for so long. As time goes on, you will become more aware of people you hurt with Calvinism, this pride, the delusion of it all, but by then when you are in Hell it will be too late because it will be more painful for you to repent and give your life to Christ than to spend eternity in Hell. And sad to say, this is the course you are on and it will take a miracle to get you off that train. You simply what to be with a lesser god which is really just an idol, than the God of the Bible, for God of the Bible always trumps your god, since to have the ability to create sovereign free-willed beings is always better than not being able to. Just like a child doesn't know how to a build a multinational corporation with hundreds of thousands of employees each with their own free will, Calvinism cannot fathom how God can do this on the grandest scale.

[Finestwheat]

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel: it is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek" (Rom. 1.16). This verses does not say "the power of God for faith to every one who has been saved." Only the sinners who "received him...them that believe on his name" (John 1.12) become "born again...by the word of God...which by the gospel is preached" (1 Pet. 1.23,25). Indeed, "faith cometh by hearing...the word of God" (Rom. 10.17), showing human participation. There is not one verse that says faith comes by regeneration. Do we dare turn "that believing ye might have life through his name" (John 20.31) into "that having life through his name, ye might believe," or "believe...and though shalt be saved" (Acts 16.31) into "be saved and though shalt believe," or "come unto me...and I will give you rest" (Matt. 11.28) into "all who are at rest come unto me," or "he that believeth is not condemned" (John 3.18) into "he that is not condemned believeth," or "he that believeth...shall never die" (John 11.25-26) into "he that shall never die believeth"? The Bible is too clear to corrupt.

The way man thinks is to impose upon others. It is a very fallen man-centered view. This is the core of Calvinism-to think like a man so God must be like the sinner. The truth is God is big. He can create us with free will. No one knows the things He has planned for those who love Him. He Himself can stand back and let us choose without having to impose. If man would be this way towards fellow man more, this world would be a better place. There would be less Calvinists in the world. Calvinists are trying to pull the world towards another Hitler-type character in your novel of irresistible grace for those who pridefully assumed they were irresistibly selected just because they think they were born for this privilege and preterition against the Jews as racially insuperior. I would rather go to Hell than be with such an evil god. It's interesting in Calvinism everything is reversed: Hell is Heaven and Heaven is Hell; repentance and faith come after salvation not before. Satan changes up everything. He tries to change the times and the ways.

People have written that if it wasn't for Calvinism, Hitler could not have had the foundation from which to build on to get away with what he got away with. It is a great deception to deny that God can have sufficient grace for all. It speaks of the deficiency of your god if he could not supply sufficient grace to all. Ultimately what Hitler and Calvinists are trying to do is exterminate the Jews with made up preterition, made up replacement theology, made up year-day theory, denying the Antichrist exists, remain in a selfish salvation, and willingly taking the mark of the beast or implant under their skin. After all it is their god's irresistibly grace that made them do it. Who cares about conscience. If Satan can get rid of the Jews, then he would have thwarted God's plan. He could accuse God of breaking His promise to them. He would be liar not to mention incompetent. Surely Satan could do better will be his thoughts like the Calvinists who have come up with another way to read the text with insertions and don't worry about contradictions.

It sure looks like Satan is losing though doesn't it? Israel is a nation after 2500 years. Prophecy fulfilled. She looks poised to stay for good. Israel will be the center of all nations from where Jesus will return to reign in the 3rd Temple for the millennial kingdom. Revelation 20.3 says the nations won't be deceived in the 1000 years while historicists claim the 1000 years is now even though there are wars and rumors of wars. There is no such thing as accountability and rewards in the time of recompense. This is called antinomianism. Nobody is really accountable for anything in Calvinism when you got irresistible grace and preterition. It's all done by strings, pulleys and levers through irresistibly imposed grace. No need for free will that's truly free within providence of God and His guiding care. Who needs that the Calvinist contends? Calvinists don't worship God the Father through Christ by the Holy Spirit. They worship Satan and his simulation through the Antichrist by the False Prophet. Just ask any Calvinist if he will take the mark of the beast in the Tribulation that will be here soon? He thinks these events have already happened.