Churchwork
10-08-2010, 04:00 PM
13 EXTERNAL EVIDENCES FROM CHURCH FATHERS OUTSIDE THE TEXT (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Aids_to_Revelation.htm)
1. All the writers of the first 3 centuries agree John’s exile was at the latter part of the reign of Domitian, the last of 12 Caesars, therefore Revelation written in 95 or 96 AD. No writer in the first three and a half centuries suggested any other date.
2. It would not make much sense John wrote Revelation before 70 AD when nobody could get their hands on it to be warned about these things to come while he was imprisoned for thirty years.
3. If it was in Nero’s time Revelations has no spiritual value for us for the future, the church age and events leading up to the return of Christ, so it is not already fulfilled.
4. A Teitan ("latin man"), also equally 666, can not be the Antichrist for he was never referred to as such in those terms by early Christian writers, and surely John living so close to Latin times, would have said something. So Irenaeus says, therefore, the Antichrist will arrive in some distant era beyond his own time.
5. Irenaeus was a pupil of Polycarp who himself was one of John’s pupils, so he was in a better position to know.
6. Tertullian said Domitian was cruel like Nero, but often ceased from his attempts. Banishment as with John was the more likely avenue whereas Nero would just put you to death. So it is highly unlikely Nero banished John.
7. Clement of Alexandria speaks of a "tyrant" after whose death John returns from exile, referring to Domitian, since John did not return from Patmos right after Nero, for if he did, then he wouldn't have written Revelation before, but after 70 AD. Since Domitian died 96 AD, that would be when John was released or thereabouts, writing down all that he saw and heard. Now that he is released, "Though must prophesy again concerning many peoples and nations and tongues and kings" (Rev. 10.11).
8. Eusebius, in three passages, states the banishment of John took place in reign of Domitian and that the time of John’s revelation was in the fourteenth year reign of Domitian (95 AD).
9. Victorinus of Petau, the earliest extant writer on the apocalypse, said John revealed his revelation when he was released from Patmos at 95 AD or thereabouts. "Though must prophesy again concerning many peoples and nations and tongues and kings" (Rev. 10.11).
10. Victorinus, martyred in 303 AD, said Domitian was the sixth king reigning during when the apocalypse was written in reference to the 8th king talked about in Revelations 17. The first 5 Caesars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_emperors) who died horrific deaths, not by natural causes, were Julius Caesar, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius and Nero. Augustus died of natural causes, the Year of the Four Emperors were short-lived. Vespian and Titus died of natural causes also. Then comes Domitian, the twelfth Caesar. "Five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come" (18.10). "The beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition" (17.11). Nero "is not" at the time of John's writing because Nero had already died, so he is not the sixth; but Nero will come again as the Antichrist, taking the body of the seventh. Only Nero's name comes to 666 of the Caesars.
11. Jerome from the 4th century, somewhat later, said the revelation John received he actually wrote down at Patmos and was written in the fourteenth year of Domitian's reign (95 AD) who was the second Caesar to persecuted Christians, Nero obviously, being the first. Whoever is the first to throw the first stone and in that sense is considered the most evil. But Nero was evil incarnate (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Nero.htm) in many ways it is too hard to count.
12. This harmony was ruined by Ephiphanius of Salamis in the late 4th century whose testimony is worthless plus it is incredible. He was careless and an inaccurate ancient writer. He actually wrote that John at age 90 was released into the reign of Claudius. Claudius was assassinated in 54 AD. If this is true then John would had to have been 33 years older than Jesus Christ in his 63rd year when called to apostle.
13. Many other authors also in favor of the Domitian date, but this evidence is overwhelming enough.
20 INTERNAL EVIDENCES-EVIDENCES IN THE TEXT AND RELATED TO OUR DAY (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Aids_to_Revelation.htm)
1. The state of the seven churches would have required development of 20 or 30 years far beyond the 5 or 6 years allowed by the Neronic date, and beyond the condition of the new churches in Paul’s time.
2. It is evident persecution was evident throughout Asia Minor at the time, at least one martyr in Pergamum, whereas in Nero’s time it does not extend beyond immediate neighborhood of Rome.
3. Smyrna was about to undergo the trial of their faith even to that of death concordant with the very well known killing of Christians in the second century with all kinds of grotesque ways.
4. The Neronic persecution would not have produced a banishment of John, but capital punishment. We are told in Scripture John was banished, not executed.
5. "But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, that they might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice immorality" (Rev. 2.14). Ballamites had time to establish themselves in Pergamum.
6. Jezebel had not only risen to influence in Thyatira, but time for repentance had also been given to her (according to Rev. 2.20,21); "...I gave her time to repent...." (v.21).
7. Revelations is definitely a book of prophecy (see 1.3, 22.7,18,19). A day with the Lord is like a thousand years, so only two days past since Christ. "Shortly come to pass" simply means not to be delayed, yet we are just too neglectful and too procrastinating about these things. Some are so impatient they change from premillennial to preterism and proudly claim Jesus won't return in the next 50 or even the next 100 years. How is that being watchful? As long as this evil generation persists (Rev. 24.34) so will He be delayed. These things "must" occur, not subject to any change, so there are things that will come to pass before He returns.
8. The Bible tells us Jesus must return when we are on the brink of destroying ourselves otherwise we would be destroyed. That does not play well for the Preterists and Postmillennialists since they say things just keep getting better and better, no worries! I think these well off folks should spend some time in the slums of the world, prisons, and acclimate themselves with many of the evils this world has to offer in a personal way to appreciate what is really going on, to help them step down from their high perch. With thousands and thousands of nuclear weapons staring us down, I think they are taking this too lightly.
9. The Rationalistic/Romanistic view of Preterists does not round out the concluding portion of God’s Word concerning future events like Genesis gives to us the beginnings. We are left empty handed without a clue.
10. Revelation is neither a book of allegorical history or already fulfilled, for who can say 1/3 of the people of the earth died (Rev. 9.18) in three and a half years of 70 AD or that there were 200 million machines congregating in the middle east (v.16) over oil in 70 AD?
11. Preterists, Partial Preterists, Postmillennialists and Amillennialists will go to Hell according Rev. 22.18,19 for not having the Spirit in their spirit as evidenced by their Romanism, Rationalism and Anti-Semitism idols the erect before the living God, and rejecting Jesus who will reign for 1000 years on earth with his overcomer believers. Is Jesus reigning with an iron rod right now? Of course not. He will do that in the millennial kingdom.
12. Are the nations no longer deceived (see Rev. 20.3)? Of course not. We hear of wars and rumours of wars. Satan is the god of this world. Satan is only immobilized because Christians have died on the cross with Christ in the first seal where we see the rider on the white horse who has a bow without an arrow because Satan has been given a deadly wound. If your flesh has died, that is to say your old man, with Christ on the cross, what can Satan do? He can not operate through dead flesh. Jesus brought us to sure death with Him on the cross. Amen. Yet Satan still freely roams 2nd heaven wreaking havoc among the nations.
13. Are Christians reigning today (Rev. 20.4)? Of course not. Where are the positions of president, prime-minister, governor, mayor and so forth occupied by Christians or the Saints of Old? The question is, Will Jesus spare Preterists the rod and wrath of God?
14. Are you dejected always thinking Jesus will return next year? Don't be. Jesus said to live as though He could return at any moment. This is life. And you will be rewarded. Do not invent another eschatology because of your impatience and your failed predictions. Such souls are showing they were never born-again to begin with because they could not remain steadfast in the faith. It would have been better they had never known about Christ considering the pitiful state they are in now (2 Pet. 2.21).
15. Rationalistic schemes to take away this fearful book serving as one of the keenest of the swords of God’s Spirit has been defeated.
16. Who is the 8th in Revelation 17? Just like the five fallen were persons, the sixth was a person, so is the seven a person, as well as the eighth is a person, the Antichrist, Nero resurrected, and this is why he can't be killed in the Tribulation, because we are appointed once to die. All that can happen is Jesus makes him the first person to be thrown into Hell. You can't switch back and forth from persons to nations. Consistently, there are 8 persons involved here who are really on 6 since the 7th is used of the 8th who is also the 5th.
17. Regarding Revelation 18, the world is not in a desperate situation to sell their goods to Israel, for such a powerful nation would either be United States or Europe with the highest GDP in the world. The European Union at the time of this writing has a GDP of about 20 trillion whereas USA only has about 14 trillion. Rome, the 7 hilled city, is where the parliament of the European Union is held. It is true as the US dollar collapses USA will no longer be able to sell their goods to Americans, but that precedes the Tribulation. Political Rome which is the European Union, which will set up 10 kings on its 7 hilled city, representative of the European Union, will itself too due to war no longer be able to buy the goods of the world. The Antichrist takes 3 of those nations and consolidates them into himself: perhaps Greece, Italy and Spain who are financially in much worse condition with high debt/gdp ratios. However, all of USA is screwed because they have 100 trillion in unfunded liabilities and USA's debt/gdp ratio is even worse. Spain, Italy and Greece make up a small fraction of the overall European Union GDP. The other possibility is Great Britain is consolidated bringing their 3 factious states into one under under Prince Charles of Wales, who is the only person that I know of in the world whose name comes to 666 in both English and Hebrew. What are the odds?
18. The prophecies Israel would become a nation (http://biblocality.com/forums/faq.php?faq=questions20to37#faq_questions_for_apos tles) have happened. One more needs to be fulfilled -- even to the Euphrates River. Preterists, Postmillennialists and Amillennialists can't stand this; they might prefer the center of our future to be in Rome or elsewhere, but not Jerusalem, for their are Replacement Theology and Anti-Semitism will not allow it.
19. There is a Temple on Earth when Jesus reigns in Person when He returns just as He left (Zech. 14.4, Acts 1.11, Rev. 1.7). He does not return to take us up only, but returns with us (Jude 14,15), those of us who are overcomer believers (about 1/7th of those who are saved as typified by the Philadelphia church).
20. What is meant by “measure” in Rev. 11.1 (http://biblocality.com/forums/content.php?151-Revelation-11.1-2) (cf. Num. 35.2,5; Ez. 45.1-3; 42.15,20; 48.8,12,15)? Measure means protection or a setting apart for God. How can those in an earthly temple be protected when the outer court is overrun and the Antichrist is reigning from the temple?
1. All the writers of the first 3 centuries agree John’s exile was at the latter part of the reign of Domitian, the last of 12 Caesars, therefore Revelation written in 95 or 96 AD. No writer in the first three and a half centuries suggested any other date.
2. It would not make much sense John wrote Revelation before 70 AD when nobody could get their hands on it to be warned about these things to come while he was imprisoned for thirty years.
3. If it was in Nero’s time Revelations has no spiritual value for us for the future, the church age and events leading up to the return of Christ, so it is not already fulfilled.
4. A Teitan ("latin man"), also equally 666, can not be the Antichrist for he was never referred to as such in those terms by early Christian writers, and surely John living so close to Latin times, would have said something. So Irenaeus says, therefore, the Antichrist will arrive in some distant era beyond his own time.
5. Irenaeus was a pupil of Polycarp who himself was one of John’s pupils, so he was in a better position to know.
6. Tertullian said Domitian was cruel like Nero, but often ceased from his attempts. Banishment as with John was the more likely avenue whereas Nero would just put you to death. So it is highly unlikely Nero banished John.
7. Clement of Alexandria speaks of a "tyrant" after whose death John returns from exile, referring to Domitian, since John did not return from Patmos right after Nero, for if he did, then he wouldn't have written Revelation before, but after 70 AD. Since Domitian died 96 AD, that would be when John was released or thereabouts, writing down all that he saw and heard. Now that he is released, "Though must prophesy again concerning many peoples and nations and tongues and kings" (Rev. 10.11).
8. Eusebius, in three passages, states the banishment of John took place in reign of Domitian and that the time of John’s revelation was in the fourteenth year reign of Domitian (95 AD).
9. Victorinus of Petau, the earliest extant writer on the apocalypse, said John revealed his revelation when he was released from Patmos at 95 AD or thereabouts. "Though must prophesy again concerning many peoples and nations and tongues and kings" (Rev. 10.11).
10. Victorinus, martyred in 303 AD, said Domitian was the sixth king reigning during when the apocalypse was written in reference to the 8th king talked about in Revelations 17. The first 5 Caesars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_emperors) who died horrific deaths, not by natural causes, were Julius Caesar, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius and Nero. Augustus died of natural causes, the Year of the Four Emperors were short-lived. Vespian and Titus died of natural causes also. Then comes Domitian, the twelfth Caesar. "Five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come" (18.10). "The beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition" (17.11). Nero "is not" at the time of John's writing because Nero had already died, so he is not the sixth; but Nero will come again as the Antichrist, taking the body of the seventh. Only Nero's name comes to 666 of the Caesars.
11. Jerome from the 4th century, somewhat later, said the revelation John received he actually wrote down at Patmos and was written in the fourteenth year of Domitian's reign (95 AD) who was the second Caesar to persecuted Christians, Nero obviously, being the first. Whoever is the first to throw the first stone and in that sense is considered the most evil. But Nero was evil incarnate (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Nero.htm) in many ways it is too hard to count.
12. This harmony was ruined by Ephiphanius of Salamis in the late 4th century whose testimony is worthless plus it is incredible. He was careless and an inaccurate ancient writer. He actually wrote that John at age 90 was released into the reign of Claudius. Claudius was assassinated in 54 AD. If this is true then John would had to have been 33 years older than Jesus Christ in his 63rd year when called to apostle.
13. Many other authors also in favor of the Domitian date, but this evidence is overwhelming enough.
20 INTERNAL EVIDENCES-EVIDENCES IN THE TEXT AND RELATED TO OUR DAY (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Aids_to_Revelation.htm)
1. The state of the seven churches would have required development of 20 or 30 years far beyond the 5 or 6 years allowed by the Neronic date, and beyond the condition of the new churches in Paul’s time.
2. It is evident persecution was evident throughout Asia Minor at the time, at least one martyr in Pergamum, whereas in Nero’s time it does not extend beyond immediate neighborhood of Rome.
3. Smyrna was about to undergo the trial of their faith even to that of death concordant with the very well known killing of Christians in the second century with all kinds of grotesque ways.
4. The Neronic persecution would not have produced a banishment of John, but capital punishment. We are told in Scripture John was banished, not executed.
5. "But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, that they might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice immorality" (Rev. 2.14). Ballamites had time to establish themselves in Pergamum.
6. Jezebel had not only risen to influence in Thyatira, but time for repentance had also been given to her (according to Rev. 2.20,21); "...I gave her time to repent...." (v.21).
7. Revelations is definitely a book of prophecy (see 1.3, 22.7,18,19). A day with the Lord is like a thousand years, so only two days past since Christ. "Shortly come to pass" simply means not to be delayed, yet we are just too neglectful and too procrastinating about these things. Some are so impatient they change from premillennial to preterism and proudly claim Jesus won't return in the next 50 or even the next 100 years. How is that being watchful? As long as this evil generation persists (Rev. 24.34) so will He be delayed. These things "must" occur, not subject to any change, so there are things that will come to pass before He returns.
8. The Bible tells us Jesus must return when we are on the brink of destroying ourselves otherwise we would be destroyed. That does not play well for the Preterists and Postmillennialists since they say things just keep getting better and better, no worries! I think these well off folks should spend some time in the slums of the world, prisons, and acclimate themselves with many of the evils this world has to offer in a personal way to appreciate what is really going on, to help them step down from their high perch. With thousands and thousands of nuclear weapons staring us down, I think they are taking this too lightly.
9. The Rationalistic/Romanistic view of Preterists does not round out the concluding portion of God’s Word concerning future events like Genesis gives to us the beginnings. We are left empty handed without a clue.
10. Revelation is neither a book of allegorical history or already fulfilled, for who can say 1/3 of the people of the earth died (Rev. 9.18) in three and a half years of 70 AD or that there were 200 million machines congregating in the middle east (v.16) over oil in 70 AD?
11. Preterists, Partial Preterists, Postmillennialists and Amillennialists will go to Hell according Rev. 22.18,19 for not having the Spirit in their spirit as evidenced by their Romanism, Rationalism and Anti-Semitism idols the erect before the living God, and rejecting Jesus who will reign for 1000 years on earth with his overcomer believers. Is Jesus reigning with an iron rod right now? Of course not. He will do that in the millennial kingdom.
12. Are the nations no longer deceived (see Rev. 20.3)? Of course not. We hear of wars and rumours of wars. Satan is the god of this world. Satan is only immobilized because Christians have died on the cross with Christ in the first seal where we see the rider on the white horse who has a bow without an arrow because Satan has been given a deadly wound. If your flesh has died, that is to say your old man, with Christ on the cross, what can Satan do? He can not operate through dead flesh. Jesus brought us to sure death with Him on the cross. Amen. Yet Satan still freely roams 2nd heaven wreaking havoc among the nations.
13. Are Christians reigning today (Rev. 20.4)? Of course not. Where are the positions of president, prime-minister, governor, mayor and so forth occupied by Christians or the Saints of Old? The question is, Will Jesus spare Preterists the rod and wrath of God?
14. Are you dejected always thinking Jesus will return next year? Don't be. Jesus said to live as though He could return at any moment. This is life. And you will be rewarded. Do not invent another eschatology because of your impatience and your failed predictions. Such souls are showing they were never born-again to begin with because they could not remain steadfast in the faith. It would have been better they had never known about Christ considering the pitiful state they are in now (2 Pet. 2.21).
15. Rationalistic schemes to take away this fearful book serving as one of the keenest of the swords of God’s Spirit has been defeated.
16. Who is the 8th in Revelation 17? Just like the five fallen were persons, the sixth was a person, so is the seven a person, as well as the eighth is a person, the Antichrist, Nero resurrected, and this is why he can't be killed in the Tribulation, because we are appointed once to die. All that can happen is Jesus makes him the first person to be thrown into Hell. You can't switch back and forth from persons to nations. Consistently, there are 8 persons involved here who are really on 6 since the 7th is used of the 8th who is also the 5th.
17. Regarding Revelation 18, the world is not in a desperate situation to sell their goods to Israel, for such a powerful nation would either be United States or Europe with the highest GDP in the world. The European Union at the time of this writing has a GDP of about 20 trillion whereas USA only has about 14 trillion. Rome, the 7 hilled city, is where the parliament of the European Union is held. It is true as the US dollar collapses USA will no longer be able to sell their goods to Americans, but that precedes the Tribulation. Political Rome which is the European Union, which will set up 10 kings on its 7 hilled city, representative of the European Union, will itself too due to war no longer be able to buy the goods of the world. The Antichrist takes 3 of those nations and consolidates them into himself: perhaps Greece, Italy and Spain who are financially in much worse condition with high debt/gdp ratios. However, all of USA is screwed because they have 100 trillion in unfunded liabilities and USA's debt/gdp ratio is even worse. Spain, Italy and Greece make up a small fraction of the overall European Union GDP. The other possibility is Great Britain is consolidated bringing their 3 factious states into one under under Prince Charles of Wales, who is the only person that I know of in the world whose name comes to 666 in both English and Hebrew. What are the odds?
18. The prophecies Israel would become a nation (http://biblocality.com/forums/faq.php?faq=questions20to37#faq_questions_for_apos tles) have happened. One more needs to be fulfilled -- even to the Euphrates River. Preterists, Postmillennialists and Amillennialists can't stand this; they might prefer the center of our future to be in Rome or elsewhere, but not Jerusalem, for their are Replacement Theology and Anti-Semitism will not allow it.
19. There is a Temple on Earth when Jesus reigns in Person when He returns just as He left (Zech. 14.4, Acts 1.11, Rev. 1.7). He does not return to take us up only, but returns with us (Jude 14,15), those of us who are overcomer believers (about 1/7th of those who are saved as typified by the Philadelphia church).
20. What is meant by “measure” in Rev. 11.1 (http://biblocality.com/forums/content.php?151-Revelation-11.1-2) (cf. Num. 35.2,5; Ez. 45.1-3; 42.15,20; 48.8,12,15)? Measure means protection or a setting apart for God. How can those in an earthly temple be protected when the outer court is overrun and the Antichrist is reigning from the temple?