An Employee at CARM Reaches Out for Help

[Churchwork]

From: "carm.org (carmstuff@yahoo.com)" <carmstuff@yahoo.com>


Troy

I have a few questions for you.
If Jesus was to atone for the WHOLE worlds sin and since we KNOW that not all are saved....doesn't this make Christs COMPLETED work on the cross a failure?

Would God subject His Son to a brutal and humiliating death on a cross for the sole purpose of only "offering" salvation to all mankind just to have Him humiliated all over again at the hands of rejecting men?
Is our God a feeble God who sits around twitteling His thumbs after Calvary waiting on the decisions of His CREATION?
Is our God even sovereign?
Does Eph 2:8-10 include the cooperation of men?
Is Romans Chapter 3 just one big lie?
Does the core definitions of Predestination and Election validate YOUR view?
If God is sovereign then is it not arrogant to ASSUME that His CREATION has more power than the CREATOR to completely change the nature that was GIVEN him?
If a man is totally depraved in nature....how can he grasp that which he runs from?
How do you reconcile the first chapter in Ephesians with your view?

I could go on and on showing that your view produces more questions than answers but I will leave you with this....
God does not require anything of us for salvation because there is nothing in us worth requiring! The whole notion that man has a "free-will" is true in this way: man is totally and completely free to make decisions according to the nature that was GIVEN him. That nature is corrupt and so is our choices. That is why even OUR righteousness is but "filthy rags" in the sight of God. Our "good" choices and "good"acts are good according to whose standards? MAN! There is nothing good in us...our heart is desperately wicked! Man does take freely of the water of life.....when it is offered to him, who wouldn't? The reason that he does EVERY time is due to him understanding what is offered to him seen through the eyes of a regenerated heart! Man CANNOT regenerate his own heart. A dead man is dead! If you didn't have anything to do with your natural birth then how can you possibly have anything to do with you spiritual re-birth? You cant! Once a mans heart has been opened to understand the things of the spirit (this done by God) then man has no choice but to see himself for what he is....a lost soul deserving hell and this MAKES a man run to the cross! All of which is orchestrated by God for His own purpose! Period! To say otherwise is to glorify man. God is the author of our salvation.

May we all grow in Grace and remember, it is NEVER about us, it is ALWAYS about Him!
Wolf

Why is His work a failure by effecting salvation to anyone who wants His love and giving people the choice by what He did on the cross? This is way He wants it. Why is God humiliated because many refuse His saving grace? I can offer you love, but I am not humiliated if you reject it. If anything, you are humiliated for rejecting love.

God is relational, therefore to have a true relationship He can't force salvation on someone. God is fully in control. He is in control of all things. He knows all our choices. He is not sitting around. Why accuse Him and His children? (Rev. 12.10) His great plan of salvation is fully in His design.

Ephesians 2.8-10 includes the cooperation of men. Your heart is cold so it denies this. Your heart is expressing your coldness through Calvinism. You're in a cult as helper or worker at CARM. Ephesians 2.8-10 is expressing you can't plan your salvation to be saved nor can you get all emotionally passionate about it to make it happen. But this is not mutually exclusive of the of the enabling grace God has given you to have the choice. Ephesians 2 is a looking back upon our salvation for those of us who are truly regenerated. In no way does it suggest irresistible regeneration and robots.

Think of the power you usurp in assuming you were irresistibly selected. Pride is killing you! I feel ugly inside even at the thought of such self-exaltation. God wants you to have the same conscience. Pride refuses to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Man is not Totally depraved, for God provides us all without exception with sufficient grace. How can God's image in which we all remain be Totally depraved? It would be accusing God Himself of His image. To have God-consciousness and then alter our core nature as being made in His image? My God doesn't allow such alteration. Even when you go to Hell you will still be made in God's image except your choice is to be eternally separated from God through Calvinism and Satan since you prefer to be with Him deep down inside.

You say God requires nothing of us, yet you of yourself assumed you were regenerated. This is doubletalk. God requires our choice; you have chosen to refuse God. God has given you sufficient grace to be able to respond, but your god hasn't. So God of the Bible trumps your god. The Bible says you may and can take of the water of life freely; you say you can't. You're lying to yourself so you don't give up control of yourself for God's control of your life.

In salvation you don't regenerate your own heart, but God does the regenerating just as you did not create yourself. He does it. The difference between the old and the new is the new requires your choice. The old was freely given to you to exist and you were born into sin, an inescapable consequence of the fall of the first Adam.

A dead man can't refuse God either, so you would not be Totally depraved. Dead means lost communication not Total inability, for always remember, God provides sufficient grace to all men as He died on the cross for the sins of the whole world and gave us the Total ability to respond to His mercy and love. Amen.

Re: http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?3681-Matt-Slick-s-Response-to-Troy-Brooks&p=7322#post7322

[stmatt]

You said, "Why is God humiliated because many refuse His saving grace?"

MATTS RESPONSE: I think this is why God has to use coersion to get people into his kingdom. Like 14:23 says this: And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel [them] to come in, that my house may be filled.

You said, "God is relational, therefore to have a true relationship He can't force salvation on someone."

MATTS RESPONSE: Do you love your mother? Did your mother force you to love her? If love can come naturally through no choice of your own, why do you think that salvation cannot come without a choice? See John 1:13. There is no choice in becoming a family member of God.

You said: "God is relational, therefore to have a true relationship He can't force salvation on someone. God is fully in control. He is in control of all things."

MATTS RESPONSE: So, is God in charge of salvation??? Everything means everything, right?

You said, "Ephesians 2.8-10 includes the cooperation of men. Your heart is cold so it denies this. Your heart is expressing your coldness through Calvinism. You're in a cult as helper or worker at CARM."

MATTS RESPONSE: Is it warm to say that a Christian brother donating his time at an apologetics ministry is in a cult? Is that a warm thing to say?

You said, "A dead man can't refuse God either, so you would not be Totally depraved. Dead means lost communication not Total inability, for always remember, God provides sufficient grace to all men as He died on the cross for the sins of the whole world and gave us the Total ability to respond to His mercy and love. Amen."

MATTS RESPONSE: Gen 6:5 says that men think evil thoughts all of the time. John 3:19 says that men love darkness. Jesus even said that there is an unforgiveable sin that was commited by some of the Pharisees that believed that He did miracles by the power of Satan! God desires that all men to be saved. God gets whatever he desires. If God desires the Red Sea to part it will part. If God wants the elect to be saved then the elect will be saved.

Do you go to the grocery store and buy 10 bags of groceries and then only bring 5 bags home? Of course not. Likewise, Jesus laid his life down for the sheep. People do not come to Christ on their own, (John 5:40).

Jesus said, "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day," John 6:39-40.

Please review John 1:13 and let me what is not a human choice in becoming adopted into the family of God?

Thank you!

In Jesus,

Matt Paulson
CARM

[Churchwork]

I think this is why God has to use coersion to get people into his kingdom. Like 14:23 says this: And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel [them] to come in, that my house may be filled.
"Compel" here is "urge" in the NLT which speaks of the intensity of what is needed, not forcing them under lock and chains. What is clear to me is a person can read the Bible not by the Holy Spirit but by their flesh to render whatever meaning they want.


Do you love your mother? Did your mother force you to love her? If love can come naturally through no choice of your own, why do you think that salvation cannot come without a choice? See John 1:13. There is no choice in becoming a family member of God.
That's the whole point. Your mother did not force you to love her. Otherwise it would not be love. Loving another person still requires a response of the other person. Even though your mother loves you, you can still refuse her love like you refuse God's love when you self-exalt yourself pridefully assuming you were irresistibly selected and allege you did not prior have to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. You can't see the selfishness in that can you?

John 1.13 doesn't say there is no choice. It says, "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." "Blood" pertains to the physical, "will of the flesh" addresses passions of the flesh (emotion) and "will of man" (mental) regards man's planning. To be born-again, new birth takes place in the spirit, that is, your innerman. It would be easier for you to understand this if you knew man was spirit, soul and body and not soul (spirit) and body. Don't confuse the looking back upon one's salvation as meaning irresistibly imposed. That's goofy.


So, is God in charge of salvation??? Everything means everything, right?
He wouldn't be in charge of salvation if all one needed to do what you do, pridefully exalt yourself assuming you were irresistibly selected. You don't see the evil in that do you? Your conscience has not been quickened with God's life. There is a difference between chosen by God's infinite foreknowledge and thinking you are chosen pridefully.


Is it warm to say that a Christian brother donating his time at an apologetics ministry is in a cult? Is that a warm thing to say?
You are not a Christian brother. You have never been a child of God, never born-again, and are not my brother in Christ. You are going to Hell according to your faith. You're in a cult and you want to be in that cult. You do not want to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. You need you're special selfish self-exaltation: the idol of Total depravity and no free will. What happened to those in the Old Testament who worshiped idols like you do?


Gen 6:5 says that men think evil thoughts all of the time. John 3:19 says that men love darkness. Jesus even said that there is an unforgiveable sin that was commited by some of the Pharisees that believed that He did miracles by the power of Satan! God desires that all men to be saved. God gets whatever he desires. If God desires the Red Sea to part it will part. If God wants the elect to be saved then the elect will be saved.
Men thinking evil thoughts all the time doesn't equal Total depravity for God provided sufficient grace to all men. Your god can't do this but God of the Bible can. What's evil is to worship a god of Total depravity, because it is an idol you erect which prevents you from repenting and believing Christ to be regenerated. Idols have a tendency to do that. They even compel you: obsession turns into possession. Sadly you love this darkness--you may even call it the light. The unforgiveable sin is only possible when Jesus was present in Person. You have not blasphemed the Holy Spirit so you can yet give your life to Christ one day.

Since God desires all to be saved then Calvinism is a heresy since Calvinism says God does not desire all to be saved OR as some who call themselves Calvinists claim He does want all to be saved openly but secretly He doesn't which of course is a contradiction. Either way you look at it, what you worship is Satanic. Of course God gets what He desires; that's not what distinguishes Christians from Calvinists. He does want the elect to be saved. But nothing there about wanting to irresistibly impose salvation on some or send others to Hell without recourse just because they were born into sin. You're a bad guy. You exalt yourself over the alleged preteritioned. You need to realize that and give your life to Christ to be saved for real or you will go to Hell, I assure you. It's easy to see you have never been born-again and probably never will.


Do you go to the grocery store and buy 10 bags of groceries and then only bring 5 bags home? Of course not. Likewise, Jesus laid his life down for the sheep. People do not come to Christ on their own, (John 5:40).

Jesus said, "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day," John 6:39-40.

Please review John 1:13 and let me what is not a human choice in becoming adopted into the family of God?

Thank you!

In Jesus,

Matt Paulson
CARM
Christians don't believe we come to Christ on our own without God's help. Why do you bear false witness against OSAS Arminians to try to make your case? When you need to argue a point by sinning, it really discredits your belief. Of course Jesus laid down His life for the sheep, but how? You fail to ask how. He does so by being the "Savior of all men, specially those who believe" NOT "Savior of all men but some for Hell, specially those who believe" for what an evil Savior that would be who sustains them but lacks the sufficient grace for them to be able to escape Hell. What love is that?

And it is worse than lacking the grace of God but downright evil of your god to irresistibly impose salvation or to deny grace to someone without any opportunity to be saved. You're sick!

Like John 5.40 says, you will not come to Him that you may have life. That is your choice.

God knows exactly how many are going to be saved so He can speak of them "specially". He made the New City a certain size because He knows exactly the number.

A non-choice on your part is not a choice for Christ. But you have also made a choice against Him, because you don't want to be saved His way. You have made your choice, now you want to try to understand that choice. But you are being dishonest with yourself for to be honest you should come right out and say you prefer another Christ which is not the Christ of the Bible, for there is nothing in the Bible about irresistible regeneration and preterition. But there are scores of verses for you to repent and be converted. This repenting is something that you are unwilling to do because it is too scary for you to let go. You hold a firm grip on self. God pleads with you and you don't respond to Him as you are accountable and able to do.

"Willingly offered" is found five times, such as "the people willingly offered themselves" (Judges 5.2); "willingly offered a freewill offering unto the Lord" (Ezra 3.5).

"Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" (Rom. 5.18). "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2.4). All men can be saved "whosoever believeth" (John 3.16) "to the knowledge of truth" and "unto justification of life." This is a parallelism. Same "all men."

Does God offer us salvation when He says "come unto me" (Matt. 11.28) because we have free-will: "whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely" (Rev. 22.17)? "He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him" (Heb. 7.25). Are faith and works contrasted as opposites? "By grace are ye saved, through faith;...not of works" (Eph. 2.8-9); "But to him that worketh not, but believeth..." (Rom. 4.5). Christ repeatedly gave such invitations as "Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matt. 11.28), and "If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink" (John 7.37).

Why do you call Him a liar? He makes a liar out of you.

[Churchwork]

Troy,
I did read your response very carefully. Until you understand the total depravity of man and submit to the Bibles teaching of it, you will remain in ignorance. The Bible is VERY clear about the corrupt nature of man! Denial of this is to deny the whole purpose for man needing a Savior.
In order to understand this truth of the word the Lord must open up your mind to understand the scriptures. What you believe is a self-centered doctrine.
It is heresy. You MUST consider the WHOLE council of Gods Word. The crux of your doctrine is pride. If you seek Him with all of your heart you will find Him, first you must remove yourself from the equation and focus on God only.
In your response to me only one thing is clear: The total inability to humble yourself and focus completely on God view of sinful man. Your judgment is clouded by this notion that you have this "island of righteousness" in the vast ocean of your nature.
If you cannot accept the fundamental truth that your nature is completely corrupt, then their is no point continuing this conversation.

May we all grow in Grace and remember, it is NEVER about us, it is ALWAYS about Him!

Wolf

Until you realize God of the Bible provides sufficient grace to all and is able to do this to realize no man is totally depraved your idol will continue to keep you separated from God by your unwillingness to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Pride is killing you. The Bible is clear about man's corruptness, for there is no way to reform the flesh. It must die. But in no way does this suggest God's grace is insufficient and therefore man Totally depraved.

What you believe is self-centered for think how centered in self it must be to just claim you were irresistibly selected and without having to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. What you believe is a heresy and is a reflection of your dead spirit still separated from God that you could think such a thing.

Consider all of God's word. God is the Savior of all men, specially those who believe, NOT Savior of all men but some for Hell. How evil that would be. God is able to save every last person on earth whosoever is willing. Your god is not. Sadly you are unwilling and so remain an unregenerate. The false tares that try to look like the saved wheat.

Wolf in sheep's clothing, you are not coming to God with an honest heart as you self-exalt yourself pridefully thinking you were irresistibly selected. That's very Hitlerish Aryan nation-like.

God's view of sinful man is not Total depravity or Total inability, but fallen from grace in need of His mercy and grace and love. With His sufficient grace to all men, we have Total ability. We are not robots. Get over yourself and this bizarre notion. You're unable to let go of the control you have over yourself almost as though you have been preteritioned by God. The reason though is because you prefer a selfish salvation so you concoct this idolatry. To Christians this would be selfish so we reject your approach. Your conscience is not there to see it.

Your god is impotent and unable provide what God provides because he appeals to your selfishness. God gives you the right and enablement to take of the water of life freely, but you say not. He is relational so He urges you to do so and pleads with you, but you turn around and say you can't. Crazy! The crazy ways people reject God seem endless.

Do you realize your own-self righteousness is at the heart of assuming you were irresistibly selected? If you can't realize you are made in God's image and that has not ceased to exist, and God has afforded you the choice in lieu of your corruptness because that is the ampleness of His grace, then you are just erecting an idol to pride yourself upon.

It's not about you but about Him, so don't exalt yourself as the center by thinking you can just assume you were selected and did not have to repent and believe in Him to be regenerated.

Praise the Lord for this discernment! May this help lead you to Christ one day. Amen.

May you one day be like the ex-Calvinist in this video who was a Calvinist for 26 years, and said he was not born-again until he left Calvinism. He was so sure he would never have a change of mind proclaiming he would be a Calvinist for life. Wow! God works in mysterious ways!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdUtAy2Hc-4&feature=player_embedded

When I watched this video I thought to myself it is possible for a Calvinist to become an OSAS Arminian, because the latter realizes it was a false salvation pridefully assuming he was irresistibly regenerated rather than truly repenting and believing in Christ to be regenerated as the person in this video went through. But it is not possible to become a Calvinist after being an Arminian because one is set with a contradiction in that instance for the Calvinist will not admit he was unsaved when he was an Arminian. Do you see the contradiction? Apparently according to the Calvinist he was saved anyway even though he alleges now he was mistaken in thinking he had a the choice to receive Christ. I think somebody is a confused soul.

The advantage of the Calvinism to Arminian conversion over the Arminian to Calvinism conversion is that the former sincerely and honestly will admit he was never saved to begin with when he was a Calvinist but the latter conversion contradicts itself because it presupposes salvation anyway even though it was under allegedly false pretenses.

The Calvinist will claim he was saved nonetheless when he was an Arminian, but now says he realizes it was by irresistible regeneration. That's a contradiction. For how can you be saved as an Arminian one way all this time when you now believe you can only be saved the Calvinist way!? Satan is a great doubletalker and the author of confusion. He talks out both sides of his face to cover all bases as it were hoping you don't catch the contradictions in the process. The Bible says be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8). The art of exposing a false belief system is by its contradictions as well as violating God's plain word.