Atheists Shut Their Minds Down to Reality!

[Parture]

Since you can't find a naturalistic explanation for the data that even most skeptical atheist scholars concede who do their thesis work or peer review journal work on the resurrection, then realize you are shooting blanks. They give up the fact based on the evidence that the disciples TRULY BELIEVED they saw Jesus alive from the dead physically, people DON'T WILLINGLY go to their deaths as martyrs as the Apostles did, and group hallucinations ARE IMPOSSIBLE then realize Jesus is God just as He claimed to be. And you know God exists because obviously nature can't start up from nothing. That would be goofy.

Nor can the universe(s) always have existed because mankind would have approximated into that alleged past eternity and not still be sinning to the extent it still does along exponential progression of conscience we are clearly on. Heat death would be greater than it is. So the universe can't always have existed and can't magically start up from nothing for 'nothing' can't change into something or cause anything. According to science there is always causation in nature with trillions of observations to that fact. This is the preponderance of evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. No evidence something comes from nothing, none whatsoever and there never will be so you can drop your pipe dream.

We are left with no other possibility than the uncreated Creator created. So you can get rid of your atheist fantasy life. That would be pointless an eternity of the past of cause and effects. Though you may want it to be that way-pointless and meaningless-you're just projecting your delusional mind and exposing your immorality. Since humans have purpose in the universe, God has a purpose. A natural world can't create sentient life. That which has no mind can't produce that which has a mind. That which has no conscience and consciousness can't produce that which does. Mathematically it is impossible. There is not enough molecules in the history of the universe combined to randomly come together to be able to do that.

CONCLUSION: ATHEISM IS A LIE OF THE DEVIL. Atheists are going to Hell. They are bad people and they probably know it and like it that way. Satan will use any means necessary if he can get you to go to Hell with him. Don't kill the messenger or ban him. I have told you the truth. Just realize you have a choice, you don't have to remain as you are. Though Christians are once-saved-always-saved and can never be like you, you could be like us one day: born-again, forgiven, to receive power over sin and selfishness by the power of the cross in co-death with Christ, and given resurrection life-eternal life. A member of the body of Christ! God said the most beautiful thing on this earth is the Church. Praise the Lord!

[MystryBox]

Ok, so let me get this straight. Your argument is because some small group of people probably believed something, it must be true. Is that it? Pardon me if I'm not convinced by that argument. Martyrs exist in most religions. There are many people that sincerely believe false things.

[Parture]

No that's not true.

The difference being the Apostles didn't just merely "believe things". They were testifying to having seen Jesus alive from the dead.

[Faith is a fail]

They give up the fact based on the evidence that the disciples TRULY BELIEVED they saw Jesus alive from the dead physically,

Conflicting hearsay accounts aren't exactly reliable evidence now are they? Also who are these "skeptical atheist scholars" you're talking about?



people DON'T WILLINGLY go to their deaths as martyrs as the Apostles did, and group hallucinations ARE IMPOSSIBLE then realize Jesus is God just as He claimed to be.

This is a false dichotomy, there are other possible options. For instance that the apostles believed the message of Jesus and embellished the life story of Jesus so that other people would believe as well.



And you know God exists because obviously nature can't start up from nothing. That would be goofy.

"The Big Bang was the result of the inevitable laws of physics and did not need God to spark the creation of the Universe, Stephen Hawking has concluded." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/7976594/Stephen-Hawking-God-was-not-needed-to-create-the-Universe.html




CONCLUSION: ATHEISM IS A LIE OF THE DEVIL. Atheists are going to Hell. They are bad people and they probably know it and like it that way.

Your conclusion has nothing to do with the rest of your post and mostly just demonstrates that your heart is full of hate, not very Christian of you.

You also make a couple of demonstrably false statements. Atheists generally aren't bad people, they are statisticly better people than Christians. http://atheism.about.com/b/2004/12/26/atheism-theism-and-violence.htm

Also the statement "Christians are once-saved-always-saved and can never be like you" is completely wrong. Christians deconvert all the time. The majority of atheists in the U.S. used to be Christians. For instance I was a Congregationalist.

[Parture]

Conflicting hearsay accounts aren't exactly reliable evidence now are they? Also who are these "skeptical atheist scholars" you're talking about?
Matthew, John, Peter, James, Mark were all eyewitnesses. And none of the accounts conflict. Gary R. Habermas has compiled a list of scholars, including atheist scholars, who do work in the resurrection, and they concede the fact the disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead.


This is a false dichotomy, there are other possible options. For instance that the apostles believed the message of Jesus and embellished the life story of Jesus so that other people would believe as well.How do you embellish to get bodily resurrection? They willingly died for claiming they saw Jesus alive from the dead, and people don't willingly die for what they know is a lie. It most certainly would be a lie if they never saw Jesus resurrected. So no false dichotomy.


"The Big Bang was the result of the inevitable laws of physics and did not need God to spark the creation of the Universe, Stephen Hawking has concluded." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/7976594/Stephen-Hawking-God-was-not-needed-to-create-the-Universe.htmlI think Hawking is referring to "nothing" as being still something but a very small and undetectable stirring pot of active particles. That is not how I am using the word "nothing". I literally mean nothing, like a billion pound Gorilla doesn't exist, so it can't cause anything. If Hawking meant literally that which does not exist like I do, tell him to give me a call and explain how that which does not exist can bring something into existence. So silly. Energy is needed bring something into being. That which does not exist can't do that since it has no energy, space, matter or time. Therefore, you need that which is outside of time and space to bring time and space into being. This is whom we call God.


Your conclusion has nothing to do with the rest of your post and mostly just demonstrates that your heart is full of hate, not very Christian of you.Jesus spoke about Hell more than anyone. We don't hate you, but do hate your choice to spend eternity with the Devil in Hell. You can't ask us to respect you for that or applaud you. It necessary follows you will go to Hell because God is proven, Jesus is proven to be God, and Hell is necessary for those who want to spend eternity away from God. You're a bad person, obviously. I can understand why you feel threatened but you have nobody to blame but yourself.


You also make a couple of demonstrably false statements. Atheists generally aren't bad people, they are statisticly better people than Christians. http://atheism.about.com/b/2004/12/26/atheism-theism-and-violence.htm"Atheists, being a moderate proportion of the USA population (about 8-16%) are disproportionately less numerous in the prison population (0.21%)".

I can make sense out of this. This is actually a bad thing for atheism, because once you go to prison you learn you are a sinner and thus convert to some religion. You at least know atheism is a lie and does no satisfy the heart in jail. Atheists have the highest suicide rate so that could help explain why there are less atheists in jail since it is a meaningless existence.

"Japan used to have much stronger religious faith, and a state religion, and guess what: Japan was remarkably aggressive and militaristic when "Shinto" was at its peak, and during WW2, when its Emperor was regarded as a God."

Worshiping false gods can at times be even worse than atheism so that explains Japan's situation.

"Louisiana, with America's highest church attendance rate, has twice the national average murder rate."

You know Louisiana is suffering badly. Those who are true Christians would never murder so the murder rate for Christians is 0%, for would Jesus do that? Of course not. The reason they are going to Church is because they are suffering and they hath an ear to hear God in their suffering. That's why God chose the Hebrews as the first nation to reveal Himself to because they were enslaved for 430 years. Suffering tends to open up your eyes.

"If atheism causes violence, why are right-wing fundamentalists unable to find a shred of statistical evidence to back that claim up?"

You guys killed 200 million in the 20th century alone under Hitler, Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, etc. all in the name of natural selection. Who are you kidding?


Also the statement "Christians are once-saved-always-saved and can never be like you" is completely wrong. Christians deconvert all the time. The majority of atheists in the U.S. used to be Christians. For instance I was a Congregationalist.Since a Christian is once-saved-always-saved, those who have "deconverted" were never born-again to begin with.

[Faith is a fail]

Matthew, John, Peter, James, Mark were all eyewitnesses. And none of the accounts conflict.
That's not remotely true. They can't even agree on how many times Jesus appeared. Matthew and Luke claim Jesus appeared twice, Mark that he appeared a third time and John gives a fourth appearance which he calls the third. When talking about the second appearance Matthew says it was on a mountain in Galilee whereas Luke says it was in Jerusalem. There are a number of other conflicts but I don't need to go on I've already refuted your claim.

[Faith is a fail]

Gary R. Habermas has compiled a list of scholars, including atheist scholars, who do work in the resurrection, and they concede the fact the disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead.

I'd be interested in a link to that list, I'm incredulous that a skeptic of any sort would make claims about what the disciples believed on account of the gospels not having been written by them.

[Parture]

That's very true they are all eyewitnesses. They are not all required to give each and every account. The diversity of accounts shows they were independent reportings. They did not collude on their stories. They were not all at every one of the appearances. Sometimes it was 11, 10, 7, 2, etc. Asserting they didn't agree doesn't mean they didn't agree. You must prove it. The burden remains on you. I am not sure where you are coming up with your number of instances, but I have a full list here of 12 different group appearances,

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/12groups.htm

In all of these accounts there is no conflicts so sounds like you are just making stuff up in your imagination. You certainly aren't prepared to back up your allegations.

[Parture]

I'd be interested in a link to that list, I'm incredulous that a skeptic of any sort would make claims about what the disciples believed on account of the gospels not having been written by them.
Why don't you contact Gary yourself. You'll only do so if you care enough. I didn't mention anything about whether atheist scholars believed the disciples wrote the gospels or had them transcribed, only that almost all scholars concede the disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead. They go through their various reasons why. Realize you are on the fringe. And the main reason is not even the gospels themselves, but what Paul wrote. Scholars may differ on the various books Paul wrote but they all concede Paul wrote 1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1 & 2 in which he says he spent 15 days with Peter. He said he also spent time with John and James, the brother of Jesus. It's safe to say they talked about more than just the weather. Paul recites the gospel creed he received from them within 5 years after the cross. Hence, the churches were set up based on their eyewitness testimony having seen Jesus alive from the dead. Amen.

Study Bart Erhman and you will be drawn to Christ, because Bart concedes the disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead. There is no naturalistic explanation that can account for the origin of the disciples' beliefs.

http://biblocality.com/forums/content.php?149-Bart-Erhman-s-Mistakes

[Faith is a fail]

How do you embellish to get bodily resurrection?

A possible scenario would be that the followers believed Jesus’ message but realized that with him dead no one else would. So they invented miracles to give his message a better sales pitch.


They willingly died for claiming they saw Jesus alive from the dead,

Be honest, that isn’t actually why they died now is it. Judas killed himself out of guilt over his betrayal. We have no idea how John, Bartholomew and Simon died. The eight who died Martyrs did so over the message of Jesus not because of a specific claim they saw Jesus alive.


and people don't willingly die for what they know is a lie. It most certainly would be a lie if they never saw Jesus resurrected. So no false dichotomy.

Those who died did so to promote the message of Jesus not because of a specific claim that they saw Jesus alive. You’re just making that up. They didn’t die for a lie but that doesn’t mean they didn’t also lie. If they were willing to die for Jesus’ message why wouldn’t they be willing to lie for it.

[Parture]

A possible scenario would be that the followers believed Jesus’ message but realized that with him dead no one else would. So they invented miracles to give his message a better sales pitch.
Yet that is plain old fashioned lying, and people don't willingly die for what they know is a lie, so that caputs that theory of yours. Still coming up empty handed are you?


Be honest, that isn’t actually why they died now is it. Judas killed himself out of guilt over his betrayal. We have no idea how John, Bartholomew and Simon died. The eight who died Martyrs did so over the message of Jesus not because of a specific claim they saw Jesus alive.We have 11 sources for how the disciples died (except for John, though John was imprisoned for many years on the island of Patmos). The earliest sources that could comment on their deaths speak of their martyrdom such as Clement of Rome who mentions Peter's and Paul's martyrdom. Stephen goes through a long discourse and the resurrection before he was put to death. And James, brother of John, was also martyred. Precedent was set. Paul almost died 7 times in the Scriptures. Jesus said they would be killed as he was killed. If you were a disciple, that was your chance to get out then, but they could not because they saw Jesus alive from the dead and knew only God could do this. The very message of Jesus was His resurrection and this is how the churches were built on their original eyewitness testimony. Without the resurrection you got no Church.


Those who died did so to promote the message of Jesus not because of a specific claim that they saw Jesus alive. You’re just making that up. They didn’t die for a lie but that doesn’t mean they didn’t also lie. If they were willing to die for Jesus’ message why wouldn’t they be willing to lie for it.

While it is true those who came after may been martyred for the testimony of Jesus and his resurrection, the original disciples didn't die for that message only that originated with them, but the eyewitness testimony for they are the ones who had seen Him and such a claim resides back upon them. There were not some other 12 disciples before the 12 disciples.

Whatever you think they may have lied about doesn't change the fact they willingly died for having seen Jesus alive from the dead.

If they were willing to die for Jesus' message which was resurrection, why would they be willing to die for it if it was a lie they never saw Jesus resurrected, after all nobody in history has ever allowed themselves to be put to death for what they knew was a lie. Think about that. Human nature is protect your life even if that means lying.

[Parture]

Realize you are a failure when you said "Faith is not valid evidence for the existence of a god [or atheism]," since faith of Christians is proven whereas your faith is unproven. As the Bible says, "Prove all things". Amen.