Faithful
02-22-2010, 11:43 PM
Re: Neal Cary
http://atheists.org/about/Board_of_Directors
Why do you assume that the stories in the Bible report actual events, and why do you assume that a rejection of this fiction has anything to do with group hallucinations? Alice in Wonderland is no more about group hallucinations than the Bible. They are both fiction. A fiction is a fiction no matter how many people say it is true. People have died for beliefs that they think they are true, but that does not mean that what they believed was necessarily true -- it means that they only thought what they believed was true. In fact, you are proof that some people can be fooled.
Just for fun, I'll offer you another argument. One of the disciples said he saw Jesus after he was dead (because he was truly nuts), and the others then also claimed that they saw him too because they did not want to appear to be less religious or less of a believer. This argument is more believable than taking the story at face value, because taking the story at face value amounts to a rejection of an understanding of how the world works.
This is simply not true, and again you are not being logical. It is not just the quantity of evidence, it is the quality that is important. The fact of the matter is that the quality of the evidence for a historical Jesus is highly suspect. Much of it appears to have been inserted in old texts by early Christian scribes who had no problem with doing anything which they felt would advance their religion. When examined carefully, their fraud is revealed. Try studying material that isn't from Christians so you won't make such comments.
I can't find any reason to think the events in the NT did not actually happen. You could present no reason either. I have a list of 75 archaeological finds pertaining to events in the New Testament. The book of Mormon can't produce any archaeological finds for its claim. Nor are you able to present any historical basis for your belief in atheism other than hostility to your Creator.
The disciples didn't die for a belief, as was said before, but for eyewitnessing testimony, put to death for what they knew to be true seeing the risen Jesus. Do you see the difference? One has to do with just thoughts. The other is eyesight. Since group hallucinations are impossible, they truly believed they saw Jesus resurrected. What you must do then is find a naturalistic explanation since group hallucinations are impossible.
If you argue they lied, the problem with your theory is that people don't willingly die for a lie. You're back to square one: still looking for a naturalistic explanation. You can see why I am a Christian, because you don't have a naturalistic explanation that works. So you increase my faith. Thank you.
You know not enough time had developed for legend and scribal alterations for according to the Dead Sea Scrolls discovered in 1948 shows most of the books of the New Testament were written before 65 AD. From the beginning the resurrection was preached, because they had seen the risen Lord. Hence, Paul testified to having spent 15 days with Peter, one of the Apostles, who said just that; as well as with James, the brother of Jesus who had seen Him resurrected. And John also. Read 1 Cor. 15, Galatians 1 & 2. Almost all skeptical scholars consider this a genuine account by Paul. So he built up the Church immensely having seen Jesus in His ascension. He could not deny His own eyes what He so vividly saw and whom He spoke with with others present with Him who corroborated the appearance of Jesus.
You suggested material from non-Christian sources. I have 17 early non-Christian sources, all of them which recognize Jesus was a real person, not one of them otherwise, 12 of them speak of His death, 7 of His alleged deity, and 7 of his alleged resurrection.
It's really not an evidence issue, but a heart issue. You really don't want to live in a world where there is no caring, compassionate, just and righteous Creator. Nor a world where the God of the universe doesn't personally reveal Himself compassionately and righteously. You want a God who knows all your hurts. Picture Him behaving this way towards you right now. He wants to walk with us.
Such a universe would be ultimately pointless without God because no matter what road you take in this life, you just go to dust anyway without consequence. And really isn't that why you reject God because you don't want to be held accountable for the things you have done in your life? Delusionally you think your end is dust anyway, so what's a little more sin or crassness? You can cheat here or there, no problem. He knows every hair on your head, every dark secret. All will be punished and recompensed accordingly. If you refuse the only way to be reconciled with God through His only begotten Son, He allows you that choice, but since you are made in His image, you can't cease to exist. You'll be resurrected to spend eternity with Satan, the fallen angels, the demons, the perverse and deplorable. I would not wish my worse enemy where you are going. But make no mistake. This speaks of your person and your character. According to the Bible you are a bad person and you must get what you deserve, even what you want, for you admit you want to be eternally separated from God. The fool says in his own heart...
When I think what is going to happen to you I need look no further than what happens to a rapist, criminal, murderer who must be locked up in jail for life. A loving God won't allow you out of Hell or near His sons and daughters. You have made your choice and it would be too painful for you to give into the truth than remain eternally degenerate and separated from your Creator. How truly sad for you. The greatest sin of all is that of rejecting your Creator, like a child rejecting parents for no other reason than his own evil nature.
What I see in you is a cowardly, fearful man who is afraid to give up the tight control he has of himself, his wealth, his sphere, his life, his obsessions. You can't let go and be guided by the Holy Spirit in fellowship with Christ prayerful to the Father. Try jumping out of an airplane. That's the closest I can think of what it is like letting go of yourself and placing yourself in the hands of God. He is knocking on the door of your heart if only you will let Him in. Just know the only reason He has not entered your heart is because YOU don't let Him in? Who? You. You have nobody to blame but yourself.
http://atheists.org/about/Board_of_Directors
Why do you assume that the stories in the Bible report actual events, and why do you assume that a rejection of this fiction has anything to do with group hallucinations? Alice in Wonderland is no more about group hallucinations than the Bible. They are both fiction. A fiction is a fiction no matter how many people say it is true. People have died for beliefs that they think they are true, but that does not mean that what they believed was necessarily true -- it means that they only thought what they believed was true. In fact, you are proof that some people can be fooled.
Just for fun, I'll offer you another argument. One of the disciples said he saw Jesus after he was dead (because he was truly nuts), and the others then also claimed that they saw him too because they did not want to appear to be less religious or less of a believer. This argument is more believable than taking the story at face value, because taking the story at face value amounts to a rejection of an understanding of how the world works.
This is simply not true, and again you are not being logical. It is not just the quantity of evidence, it is the quality that is important. The fact of the matter is that the quality of the evidence for a historical Jesus is highly suspect. Much of it appears to have been inserted in old texts by early Christian scribes who had no problem with doing anything which they felt would advance their religion. When examined carefully, their fraud is revealed. Try studying material that isn't from Christians so you won't make such comments.
I can't find any reason to think the events in the NT did not actually happen. You could present no reason either. I have a list of 75 archaeological finds pertaining to events in the New Testament. The book of Mormon can't produce any archaeological finds for its claim. Nor are you able to present any historical basis for your belief in atheism other than hostility to your Creator.
The disciples didn't die for a belief, as was said before, but for eyewitnessing testimony, put to death for what they knew to be true seeing the risen Jesus. Do you see the difference? One has to do with just thoughts. The other is eyesight. Since group hallucinations are impossible, they truly believed they saw Jesus resurrected. What you must do then is find a naturalistic explanation since group hallucinations are impossible.
If you argue they lied, the problem with your theory is that people don't willingly die for a lie. You're back to square one: still looking for a naturalistic explanation. You can see why I am a Christian, because you don't have a naturalistic explanation that works. So you increase my faith. Thank you.
You know not enough time had developed for legend and scribal alterations for according to the Dead Sea Scrolls discovered in 1948 shows most of the books of the New Testament were written before 65 AD. From the beginning the resurrection was preached, because they had seen the risen Lord. Hence, Paul testified to having spent 15 days with Peter, one of the Apostles, who said just that; as well as with James, the brother of Jesus who had seen Him resurrected. And John also. Read 1 Cor. 15, Galatians 1 & 2. Almost all skeptical scholars consider this a genuine account by Paul. So he built up the Church immensely having seen Jesus in His ascension. He could not deny His own eyes what He so vividly saw and whom He spoke with with others present with Him who corroborated the appearance of Jesus.
You suggested material from non-Christian sources. I have 17 early non-Christian sources, all of them which recognize Jesus was a real person, not one of them otherwise, 12 of them speak of His death, 7 of His alleged deity, and 7 of his alleged resurrection.
It's really not an evidence issue, but a heart issue. You really don't want to live in a world where there is no caring, compassionate, just and righteous Creator. Nor a world where the God of the universe doesn't personally reveal Himself compassionately and righteously. You want a God who knows all your hurts. Picture Him behaving this way towards you right now. He wants to walk with us.
Such a universe would be ultimately pointless without God because no matter what road you take in this life, you just go to dust anyway without consequence. And really isn't that why you reject God because you don't want to be held accountable for the things you have done in your life? Delusionally you think your end is dust anyway, so what's a little more sin or crassness? You can cheat here or there, no problem. He knows every hair on your head, every dark secret. All will be punished and recompensed accordingly. If you refuse the only way to be reconciled with God through His only begotten Son, He allows you that choice, but since you are made in His image, you can't cease to exist. You'll be resurrected to spend eternity with Satan, the fallen angels, the demons, the perverse and deplorable. I would not wish my worse enemy where you are going. But make no mistake. This speaks of your person and your character. According to the Bible you are a bad person and you must get what you deserve, even what you want, for you admit you want to be eternally separated from God. The fool says in his own heart...
When I think what is going to happen to you I need look no further than what happens to a rapist, criminal, murderer who must be locked up in jail for life. A loving God won't allow you out of Hell or near His sons and daughters. You have made your choice and it would be too painful for you to give into the truth than remain eternally degenerate and separated from your Creator. How truly sad for you. The greatest sin of all is that of rejecting your Creator, like a child rejecting parents for no other reason than his own evil nature.
What I see in you is a cowardly, fearful man who is afraid to give up the tight control he has of himself, his wealth, his sphere, his life, his obsessions. You can't let go and be guided by the Holy Spirit in fellowship with Christ prayerful to the Father. Try jumping out of an airplane. That's the closest I can think of what it is like letting go of yourself and placing yourself in the hands of God. He is knocking on the door of your heart if only you will let Him in. Just know the only reason He has not entered your heart is because YOU don't let Him in? Who? You. You have nobody to blame but yourself.