Parture
01-22-2010, 10:36 PM
http://www.youtube.com/user/bbbfohio kjvbiblebelievers.com
Please listen to our message, "The Doctrine of Limbo" which will clear up your confusion about soul sleep and Hell.
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=94072111111
I prefer the term timeless unawares because that is what soul sleep is. I did this for you and you alone. My ministry is not to give a sermon, but to help people personally. I believe I addressed every verse and point you made in your audio.
When does this take place? "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Tit. 2.13). This is when Jesus returns. The term epiphaneia (meaning “appearing”) is used in the Bible in: 1 Timothy 6.14; 2 Timothy 1.10, 4.1,8; Titus 2.13; and 2 Thessalonians 2.8 where this Greek term is translated as “manifestation” in English. The “appearing” is for the purpose of causing people to see. "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess. 4.17) and "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matt. 24.27). You don't get to see Him before the consummation of this age.
The blessed hope is not in dying but being resurrected. It's a delusion to think you go into the presence of Jesus Christ immediately after you die and not come to Judgment-Seat. "So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David" (1 Kings 2.10). The Church doesn't lose her hope because we are resurrected together. What makes you think a person fears death because we are to rest with our fathers and are appointed once to die? Why is it a dark thought to go into Abraham's bosom? The Bible treats this paradise below very positively. Where did the repentant thief go? He saw Jesus the same day in the good side of Hades below. "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise" (Luke 23.43). Where did Jesus go the day He died on the cross? To the good side of Hades, paradise below. Not to to Heaven.
What is demonic about believing you go to Heaven the moment you die? You open yourself up to spirit communications with demonic spirits posing as loved ones or voices alleging to be from Heaven like Joseph Smith of Mormonism claimed to have various communications with past saints. This is totally avoided if you are resting in soul sleep. Think of soul sleep as a place of protection then from such delusions.
David had full confidence he would see his baby, but that doesn't disallow the resurrection taking place together. "But why should I fast when he is dead? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him one day, but he cannot return to me" (2 Sam. 12.23). He can't communicate with you because he is in soul sleep. It says "one day" not the very second he dies. David goes to rest with him like David sleeps with his fathers. God said not even David is in Heaven yet a man after God's own heart. "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand" (Acts 2.34). Not even David, a man after God's own heart, has his soul and spirit raised to heaven yet.
The minute David wakes up he sees his child. David is not going to bypass Judgment-Seat. That would be a sin, something Satan would teach. The child is going to be with the Lord when he is resurrected not before.
"Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth" (Luke 15.10). The presence of the angels is God's heart, not the saints, for they have not been resurrected yet. Why replace God's heart with the false teaching saints have been resurrected already? The KJV adds to this error by teaching, "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth" (Rev. 5.10). The four seals represent that past 20 centuries. Since the saints are not taken up till the 5th and 7th seal, the saints can't be in Heaven yet. Most Bible versions agree: "and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth" (RSV). I see pride in the KJV version as though Satan's minions are declaring themselves as the chosen ones and seat themselves while Jesus is still standing. Who is praising the saints? The angels. Who takes up the prayers of the saints? Not men, but angels take the "golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" (Rev. 5.8). "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" (Rev. 5.8). "And they sung a new song, saying..." (v.9).
Do you see the pride that exists in claiming these are saints rather than angels? For Jesus said "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven" (John 3.13). He didn't say "...but they will ascend to heaven when I am resurrected."
"I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance" (Luke 15.7). The future tense ("shall be in heaven") are future repentances of those who get saved.
Jesus is not resurrected at this point yet, but neither are the saints resurrected immediately after Jesus died either. "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day" (Acts 2.29). Still David has not been raised. "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand" (Acts 2.34). Not even David, a man after God's own heart, has his soul and spirit raised to heaven yet.
"Captivity captive" (Eph. 4.8) does not represent the release of saints into Heaven, but that through His precious blood we are no longer under bondage to sin and separation from God. Redemption does not take place in the good side or bad side of Hades. Redemption takes place on the cross. Those who are going to Hell are not in Hell already, but then come back to get their resurrected bodies. How strange that would be. Rather, they are resurrected a thousand years after the saints are resurrected. The Christian has a resurrected spirit when she is born-again, but this does not mean we are in Heaven when we die. I can touch the heavenlies and even have a Third Heaven experience, but I am not in Third Heaven the moment when I die because this is not comforting to the saints: "Wherefore comfort one another with these words" (1 Thess. 4.18).
"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom" (Luke 16.23). Most Bible versions consider the KJV wrong using "hell", for it is actually "hades". In this case it is the bad side of hades where the Rich Man goes. Whereas Lazarus goes to the good side in paradise below called Abraham's bosom. Never think of hell as hades (grave, place of soul sleep, timeless unawares), for obviously Lazarus is not in Hell, and nothing is worse than Hell. Thus, Hell is the Lake of Fire. Hell is eternal separation from God. You can't throw Hell into Hell.
The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable. The opening of the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man ("There was a rich man" HCSB, NIV, RSV) indicates that it is a parable (Luke 16.1 "Jesus told this story to his disciples" NLT). Since it is a parable and parables are not perfect, we can be told this story without having to think people are awake in Hades right now or in Heaven without bodies. What God is telling you is that you need to stop belittling Abraham's bosom with your coarse remarks. How is that loving? and using terms like Limbo, The Tank, The Vault, Dark Sleep, etc. Would Jesus behave like that? God speaks positively, you speak negatively of Abraham's bosom (paradise below). Outer darkness is loss of rewards, but Abraham's bosom is not dark. I think it is most pleasant.
The story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is anthropomorphised, in this case, "to ascribe human form or attributes to the state of the dead as a foretaste of Heaven or Hell." It most aptly deals with the confusion by KJV onlyists who mistreat Hades as Hell to show that soul sleep is not an evil thing, just like turning your computer off is not a bad thing and then turning it back on tomorrow. If we can do it, why can't God? God is always showing us stuff as it is in Heaven so it is on Earth or as it is on Earth so it is in Heaven: in other words, there are similarities. Of course we are not computers like those who teach Total depravity. Check your lexicon. Hades means "grave, death". This does not take away from other passages of Scripture that treat Hell as Hell, and use others terms for Hell such as Gehenna. The Bible distinctly differentiates Hades and Hell. Never are they the same. Old usages are "lower regions" and "realm of the dead".
Abraham's bosom is not a physical possibility for who can go into another person's bosom? So it is a parable. There is a person named Lazarus who is resting in soul sleep, I am sure. I have no problem with that. This parable has application. There are really people in these two distinct abodes of Hades. They are asleep, but anthropomorphised. Your soul and spirit can't be conscious without a body. We are living souls with a body and spirit. We are not spirit beings like angels. You tried to get away at the outset from observing the implications of man's tripartite being which entails man is always tripartite and can't have his various constituent parts yanked apart from each other. To receive sensitivity to this read about dividing of your spirit, soul and body (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/SMCFP.htm) to walk after the spirit.
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5.8). Since no man can come before the High Priest naked without a body, then why be so impatient? Wait for your brothers and sisters to be resurrected together along with you. To be present with the Lord is as though no time has passed because when you awaken from timeless unawares, it will seem like the same day. The objective is to be with the Lord not to have a party for a long time in Heaven and then come before the Judgment-Seat with your new body.
"And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain" (1 Cor. 15.37). You're appointed once to die. This verse neither says you will be in soul sleep or not. Why read into the text? Surely the KJV onlyist can come up with a better verse to make his case? You do not put on the garment until you are resurrected with the saints. I believe KJV onlyists are sinning by claiming they are putting on a garment not from God as they usurp themselves into Heaven the second they die. If so, then they have a motivation to die sooner, to get to Heaven sooner. To me that is sin. What if by not believing in soul sleep you are exalting yourself above God? What sort of garment would that be if you get to party it up in Heaven naked for millennia and then come before the Judgment-Seat. That doesn't seem like the Judgment-Seat of Christ.
"And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost" (Luke 23.46). Committing His spirit into the hands of God is not going to Heaven, but simply dying in the likeness of flesh, or for us, in actual flesh. It doesn't mean being resurrected to Heaven.
"But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God" (Acts 7.56). This is a vision, not being raptured alive for he died in the flesh.
"And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit" (Acts 7.59). This is part of the dying process whereby our spirits are given up to God and we are placed in soul sleep waiting for that glorious day of resurrection. Don't think your spirit goes one place, your soul another and yet you get a body at some other times. That is warped! At the day of resurrection will spirit, soul and body be resurrected. When you are alive you are in control of your spirit, but not so when you are asleep ("the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets" 1 Cor. 14.32). When you are resurrected you get back control of the screen and hardware (body-the servant), keyboard and interface (soul-the steward) when the computer's processor is turned back on (intuitive spirit-our mistress).
Are you looking forward to soul sleep? How can you look forward to that which for all purposes never happens, because when you are resurrected you won't know a day has passed? So such concept is not presented. What is presented is the saints will be resurrected together, and none come before the High Priest naked and none come to Judgment-Seat before being clothed. A sinner wants to be in Heaven before being clothed and before Judgment-Seat, maybe even thinking he escapes it altogether. How is that fair to the saints that there be a party going on in Heaven of those who are naked before God and who did not come before Judgment-Seat. Sounds like an evil party. Do you really want to be party to it? The Bible warns about this party spirit. It is a fantasy.
"For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better" (Phil. 1.23). Since a person's time in Abraham's bosom whether one day or 3000 years God treats as equal because it is timeless unawares. That's why Paul looks to our rapture together and not his rapture before the saints, because there no preceding those who are asleep. Our sleep if in Abraham's bosom is not a dark sleep, but it is beautiful, a sleep with Abraham and the fathers in paradise below. Why accuse God's way of doing things? For Paul it was much better to be with Lord and it is, to be resurrected today if all the saints could be resurrected today, but the consummation of this age has not come yet.
What then is Paul's reward for lasting in the body? To return with Christ to reign a thousand years. Someone who has been in soul sleep 5000 years or one day is just the same, for when either wake up, it is the same moment before they died as though they had not been asleep at all. They awake in a glorious state with a glorious body, perhaps the age of 33 like you said. I like that age myself too because I was born-again at the age of 33. And that's about when Jesus started His ministry.
Who is really getting the best end of the stick if a person gets to be in Heaven for thousands of years, unclothed, and doesn't have to own up to Judgment-Seat all that time? While someone else died thousands of years later had to immediately go to Judgment-Seat and did not get to party it up all this time naked as can be.
"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him" (1 Thess. 4.14). Ask the question HOW and WHEN does God bring those with Him who "sleep in Jesus"? How many days do they sleep? The 7th Day Adventists state this begins at the failed prophecy date of 1844 starting with Adam. KJV onlyists and Spiritists say God only sleeps for an infinitesimal nanosecond. Who really considers that genuine sleep? Verses 15-18 explain how God brings those with Jesus. "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and left unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep" (1 Thess. 4.15). It's plainly stated how: "alive and left unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep." Everyone who is saved is sleeping and will not be raised up until the coming of the Lord with those who are alive and remain. This gives others comfort to know that if we were to die today, the Lord waits to resurrect us all together, and there is not some Pentecostal or KJV onlyist idolatry party going on in Heaven: as much as these sects and parties are anticipated. Treating others as I would be treated, I don't desire to be in Heaven thousands of years before my brothers and sisters. That would make me sad actually and would feel selfish. Do you have a conscience to feel this way under such a scenario?
"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us" (Heb. 12.1). Who are these cloud of witnesses? Could they be angels? What about those who come after us who read our testimony? What about those who are resting? Though they can't see us, we can anthropomorphize them as witnesses to us, for Jesus said if you won't accept the Moses and the Prophets, what makes you think you will accept Him? "But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep" (Job 14.10-12). "For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" (Ps. 6.5). Doesn't sound like the person's spirit is in heaven yet. Revelation 5 says we are compassed about by angels. The archangels declare, "And hast made them unto our God kings and priests: and they shall reign on the earth" (Rev. 5.10). Angels are singing and testifying, not those in soul sleep. "And they sung a new song, saying..." (v.9). Even so, the saints who have died testify by their lives, just as Abraham said to the Rich Man if they don't accept the testimony of the prophets, what will they accept?
But "We groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven" (2 Cor. 5.2). "For we will not be spirits without bodies, but we will put on new heavenly bodies" (v.3 NLT). Paul said we will not be spirits without bodies in heaven though we grown for our new bodies. I agree.
To be saved is not a survivor game so you can't stay saved or be saved of your own strength, but to be saved qualifies you to run the race towards overcoming in Christ and receive the reward of returning with Him. This is what Paul was looking forward to, never thinking he could lose life. "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit" (1 Pet. 3.18). God can now bring us to Him when He resurrects us together out of soul sleep, and He will do so at the consummation of this age only!
Christians are at the right hand of God!? What Christian would exalt himself that way? "That raised Christ from the dead and seated him in the place of honor at God's right hand in the heavenly realms" (Eph. 1.20). Jesus has been resurrected not us. Our spirit touches the heavenlies but nowhere do we find in God's word Christians are resurrected already spirit, soul or body. We are triune beings, and you can't separate our three parts.
"Who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ" (Eph. 1.3). Our blessing has not reached its fulfillment until we are resurrected together. There is no intermediate state of a party of naked-goers without their bodies in Heaven and who managed to bypass Judgment-Seat. What heresy! Your conscience is seared. Those who live in their feelings may believe this, but not those who are in their spirit quickened with God's life. Think how mocking it is to God to say you are going to party-it-up in Heaven for thousands of years naked before God without consequences of the Judgment-Seat. Don't get me wrong. I love a good party, but not a party that drugs itself up in a lie.
Think what it is like for those who though were not killed endured much pain and suffering during the Great Tribulation and you tell them, there has been a party going on in Heaven of people without bodies and who have not had to address the Judgment-Seat, but when you are raptured with them and they are resurrected, only then do they have to address Judgment-Seat. What a sick and twisted God that is. We are warned about those who engage in a party spirit. The Bible warns about this kind of mentality: "heresies" or "schools of opinion" or "sects" or "parties" or "party spirit" or "factions" or "divisions" (Gal. 5.20). A party of naked souls? I wonder what that would look like.
"By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison" (1 Pet. 3.19), the demons who did not keep their proper abode (http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?3606-Sons-of-God-Jesus-Preached-Unto-These-Spirits-in-Prison&p=7098#post7098). Angels are spirits. There are two kinds of evil spirits. The fallen angels and the demons. The Deep or Abyss is not Hades.
Men are living souls with a body and a spirit. We are not spirits, so Jesus was not preaching to humans.
To lead captivity captive is unto regeneration with the Lord. It is not speaking of being taken out of Hades for you know what the Bible says, "For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption" (Acts 13.36). Still no verses for raised up spirits at death. That belongs in the movies. "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day" " (Acts 2.29). Still David has not been raised. "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand" (Acts 2.34). Not even David, a man after God's own heart, has his soul and spirit raised to heaven yet because he has received no new body yet. Enoch and Elijah were raptured alive, but even them, they will die as the Two Witnesses, since man is appointed once to die.
"We groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven" (2 Cor. 5.2). "For we will not be spirits without bodies, but we will put on new heavenly bodies" (v.3 NLT). A groaning is for new bodies; there is no issue with how long one spends in timeless unawares; we certainly will not be spirits without bodies, for that is the nature of angels not men. Why would you want to be an angel? Angels will eventually be lower than us.
Are those who were under the altar in Rev. 6.11 in heaven? "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held." When under the altar they were not in Heaven but are to be resurrected near the start of the 7 year Tribulation (partial rapture of martyrs and living overcomers at Rev. 7.9).
Let us prove the altar in the 5th seal is not in Heaven to prove the point. The altar here must be the altar of sacrifices (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/5thseal.htm)—for the following reasons.
(1) According to Old Testament typology, no one should go up to the altar with his nakedness uncovered (Ex. 20.26). This signifies that no naked body can meet God. Anyone who does not have a resurrection body is considered naked, and therefore he cannot appear before God. For this reason, 2 Corinthians 5.4 speaks about being “clothed upon” with a new body. (After a person is dead, his soul does not go to God right away.) Without resurrection, no one can stand beside the golden altar of incense.
"Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon" (Ex. 20.26) - You can't go before the High Priest naked.
(2) When the Bible speaks of altar, it always refers to the altar of sacrifice. Special descriptive words such as “golden”, “incense”, and so forth are used to refer to the golden altar of incense so as to distinguish it from the altar standing in the outer court.
(3) The blood of all the sacrifices flows down underneath the altar (Ex. 29.12; Lev. 4.7, 5.9).
(4) There is life in the blood, and this word “life” in the original Hebrew is the word “soul” (Lev. 17.11 mg., 17.14). “Underneath the altar” means underneath the earth. The altar typifies the cross; beneath the cross is the earth. Hence underneath the altar here refers to Paradise in the heart of the earth (Matt. 12.40). We notice the following clause in Acts 2.27: “because thou wilt not leave my soul unto Hades”; moreover, in Numbers 16.32 it is stated that “the earth opened its mouth, and swallowed them up, and their households, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods” (Not only may no man appear before God without a body, neither may he enter the lake of fire without a body.).
"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Matt. 12.40). How can men spend lest time in Hades than Jesus did?
These martyrs were resting. After being resurrected, given white robes, they ask the Lord how much longer till the rest of their brethren come in? And the Lord Jesus said, "rest yet for a little season" (Rev. 6.11) because there is only about 7 to 9 years left before Jesus steps down on the mount of olives. I put 2 years in front of the 7 year Tribulation in the event the Tetrad of 2014-2015 are the events related in Rev. 6.12.
These are saints under the altar in Paradise below and not Paradise above and are only awakened when they are near to the Tribulation period.
Try some other proofs for timeless unawares:
Your Soul and Spirit Sleep and Wait for Resurrection (http://biblocality.com/forums/entry.php?12-Your-Soul-and-Spirit-Sleep-and-Wait-for-Resurrection)
Soul Sleep is True: Timeless Unawares the Place of Rest (http://biblocality.com/forums/content.php?128-Soul-Sleep-is-True-Timeless-Unawares-the-Place-of-Rest)
Please listen to our message, "The Doctrine of Limbo" which will clear up your confusion about soul sleep and Hell.
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=94072111111
I prefer the term timeless unawares because that is what soul sleep is. I did this for you and you alone. My ministry is not to give a sermon, but to help people personally. I believe I addressed every verse and point you made in your audio.
When does this take place? "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Tit. 2.13). This is when Jesus returns. The term epiphaneia (meaning “appearing”) is used in the Bible in: 1 Timothy 6.14; 2 Timothy 1.10, 4.1,8; Titus 2.13; and 2 Thessalonians 2.8 where this Greek term is translated as “manifestation” in English. The “appearing” is for the purpose of causing people to see. "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess. 4.17) and "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matt. 24.27). You don't get to see Him before the consummation of this age.
The blessed hope is not in dying but being resurrected. It's a delusion to think you go into the presence of Jesus Christ immediately after you die and not come to Judgment-Seat. "So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David" (1 Kings 2.10). The Church doesn't lose her hope because we are resurrected together. What makes you think a person fears death because we are to rest with our fathers and are appointed once to die? Why is it a dark thought to go into Abraham's bosom? The Bible treats this paradise below very positively. Where did the repentant thief go? He saw Jesus the same day in the good side of Hades below. "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise" (Luke 23.43). Where did Jesus go the day He died on the cross? To the good side of Hades, paradise below. Not to to Heaven.
What is demonic about believing you go to Heaven the moment you die? You open yourself up to spirit communications with demonic spirits posing as loved ones or voices alleging to be from Heaven like Joseph Smith of Mormonism claimed to have various communications with past saints. This is totally avoided if you are resting in soul sleep. Think of soul sleep as a place of protection then from such delusions.
David had full confidence he would see his baby, but that doesn't disallow the resurrection taking place together. "But why should I fast when he is dead? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him one day, but he cannot return to me" (2 Sam. 12.23). He can't communicate with you because he is in soul sleep. It says "one day" not the very second he dies. David goes to rest with him like David sleeps with his fathers. God said not even David is in Heaven yet a man after God's own heart. "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand" (Acts 2.34). Not even David, a man after God's own heart, has his soul and spirit raised to heaven yet.
The minute David wakes up he sees his child. David is not going to bypass Judgment-Seat. That would be a sin, something Satan would teach. The child is going to be with the Lord when he is resurrected not before.
"Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth" (Luke 15.10). The presence of the angels is God's heart, not the saints, for they have not been resurrected yet. Why replace God's heart with the false teaching saints have been resurrected already? The KJV adds to this error by teaching, "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth" (Rev. 5.10). The four seals represent that past 20 centuries. Since the saints are not taken up till the 5th and 7th seal, the saints can't be in Heaven yet. Most Bible versions agree: "and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth" (RSV). I see pride in the KJV version as though Satan's minions are declaring themselves as the chosen ones and seat themselves while Jesus is still standing. Who is praising the saints? The angels. Who takes up the prayers of the saints? Not men, but angels take the "golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" (Rev. 5.8). "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" (Rev. 5.8). "And they sung a new song, saying..." (v.9).
Do you see the pride that exists in claiming these are saints rather than angels? For Jesus said "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven" (John 3.13). He didn't say "...but they will ascend to heaven when I am resurrected."
"I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance" (Luke 15.7). The future tense ("shall be in heaven") are future repentances of those who get saved.
Jesus is not resurrected at this point yet, but neither are the saints resurrected immediately after Jesus died either. "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day" (Acts 2.29). Still David has not been raised. "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand" (Acts 2.34). Not even David, a man after God's own heart, has his soul and spirit raised to heaven yet.
"Captivity captive" (Eph. 4.8) does not represent the release of saints into Heaven, but that through His precious blood we are no longer under bondage to sin and separation from God. Redemption does not take place in the good side or bad side of Hades. Redemption takes place on the cross. Those who are going to Hell are not in Hell already, but then come back to get their resurrected bodies. How strange that would be. Rather, they are resurrected a thousand years after the saints are resurrected. The Christian has a resurrected spirit when she is born-again, but this does not mean we are in Heaven when we die. I can touch the heavenlies and even have a Third Heaven experience, but I am not in Third Heaven the moment when I die because this is not comforting to the saints: "Wherefore comfort one another with these words" (1 Thess. 4.18).
"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom" (Luke 16.23). Most Bible versions consider the KJV wrong using "hell", for it is actually "hades". In this case it is the bad side of hades where the Rich Man goes. Whereas Lazarus goes to the good side in paradise below called Abraham's bosom. Never think of hell as hades (grave, place of soul sleep, timeless unawares), for obviously Lazarus is not in Hell, and nothing is worse than Hell. Thus, Hell is the Lake of Fire. Hell is eternal separation from God. You can't throw Hell into Hell.
The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable. The opening of the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man ("There was a rich man" HCSB, NIV, RSV) indicates that it is a parable (Luke 16.1 "Jesus told this story to his disciples" NLT). Since it is a parable and parables are not perfect, we can be told this story without having to think people are awake in Hades right now or in Heaven without bodies. What God is telling you is that you need to stop belittling Abraham's bosom with your coarse remarks. How is that loving? and using terms like Limbo, The Tank, The Vault, Dark Sleep, etc. Would Jesus behave like that? God speaks positively, you speak negatively of Abraham's bosom (paradise below). Outer darkness is loss of rewards, but Abraham's bosom is not dark. I think it is most pleasant.
The story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is anthropomorphised, in this case, "to ascribe human form or attributes to the state of the dead as a foretaste of Heaven or Hell." It most aptly deals with the confusion by KJV onlyists who mistreat Hades as Hell to show that soul sleep is not an evil thing, just like turning your computer off is not a bad thing and then turning it back on tomorrow. If we can do it, why can't God? God is always showing us stuff as it is in Heaven so it is on Earth or as it is on Earth so it is in Heaven: in other words, there are similarities. Of course we are not computers like those who teach Total depravity. Check your lexicon. Hades means "grave, death". This does not take away from other passages of Scripture that treat Hell as Hell, and use others terms for Hell such as Gehenna. The Bible distinctly differentiates Hades and Hell. Never are they the same. Old usages are "lower regions" and "realm of the dead".
Abraham's bosom is not a physical possibility for who can go into another person's bosom? So it is a parable. There is a person named Lazarus who is resting in soul sleep, I am sure. I have no problem with that. This parable has application. There are really people in these two distinct abodes of Hades. They are asleep, but anthropomorphised. Your soul and spirit can't be conscious without a body. We are living souls with a body and spirit. We are not spirit beings like angels. You tried to get away at the outset from observing the implications of man's tripartite being which entails man is always tripartite and can't have his various constituent parts yanked apart from each other. To receive sensitivity to this read about dividing of your spirit, soul and body (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/SMCFP.htm) to walk after the spirit.
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5.8). Since no man can come before the High Priest naked without a body, then why be so impatient? Wait for your brothers and sisters to be resurrected together along with you. To be present with the Lord is as though no time has passed because when you awaken from timeless unawares, it will seem like the same day. The objective is to be with the Lord not to have a party for a long time in Heaven and then come before the Judgment-Seat with your new body.
"And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain" (1 Cor. 15.37). You're appointed once to die. This verse neither says you will be in soul sleep or not. Why read into the text? Surely the KJV onlyist can come up with a better verse to make his case? You do not put on the garment until you are resurrected with the saints. I believe KJV onlyists are sinning by claiming they are putting on a garment not from God as they usurp themselves into Heaven the second they die. If so, then they have a motivation to die sooner, to get to Heaven sooner. To me that is sin. What if by not believing in soul sleep you are exalting yourself above God? What sort of garment would that be if you get to party it up in Heaven naked for millennia and then come before the Judgment-Seat. That doesn't seem like the Judgment-Seat of Christ.
"And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost" (Luke 23.46). Committing His spirit into the hands of God is not going to Heaven, but simply dying in the likeness of flesh, or for us, in actual flesh. It doesn't mean being resurrected to Heaven.
"But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God" (Acts 7.56). This is a vision, not being raptured alive for he died in the flesh.
"And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit" (Acts 7.59). This is part of the dying process whereby our spirits are given up to God and we are placed in soul sleep waiting for that glorious day of resurrection. Don't think your spirit goes one place, your soul another and yet you get a body at some other times. That is warped! At the day of resurrection will spirit, soul and body be resurrected. When you are alive you are in control of your spirit, but not so when you are asleep ("the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets" 1 Cor. 14.32). When you are resurrected you get back control of the screen and hardware (body-the servant), keyboard and interface (soul-the steward) when the computer's processor is turned back on (intuitive spirit-our mistress).
Are you looking forward to soul sleep? How can you look forward to that which for all purposes never happens, because when you are resurrected you won't know a day has passed? So such concept is not presented. What is presented is the saints will be resurrected together, and none come before the High Priest naked and none come to Judgment-Seat before being clothed. A sinner wants to be in Heaven before being clothed and before Judgment-Seat, maybe even thinking he escapes it altogether. How is that fair to the saints that there be a party going on in Heaven of those who are naked before God and who did not come before Judgment-Seat. Sounds like an evil party. Do you really want to be party to it? The Bible warns about this party spirit. It is a fantasy.
"For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better" (Phil. 1.23). Since a person's time in Abraham's bosom whether one day or 3000 years God treats as equal because it is timeless unawares. That's why Paul looks to our rapture together and not his rapture before the saints, because there no preceding those who are asleep. Our sleep if in Abraham's bosom is not a dark sleep, but it is beautiful, a sleep with Abraham and the fathers in paradise below. Why accuse God's way of doing things? For Paul it was much better to be with Lord and it is, to be resurrected today if all the saints could be resurrected today, but the consummation of this age has not come yet.
What then is Paul's reward for lasting in the body? To return with Christ to reign a thousand years. Someone who has been in soul sleep 5000 years or one day is just the same, for when either wake up, it is the same moment before they died as though they had not been asleep at all. They awake in a glorious state with a glorious body, perhaps the age of 33 like you said. I like that age myself too because I was born-again at the age of 33. And that's about when Jesus started His ministry.
Who is really getting the best end of the stick if a person gets to be in Heaven for thousands of years, unclothed, and doesn't have to own up to Judgment-Seat all that time? While someone else died thousands of years later had to immediately go to Judgment-Seat and did not get to party it up all this time naked as can be.
"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him" (1 Thess. 4.14). Ask the question HOW and WHEN does God bring those with Him who "sleep in Jesus"? How many days do they sleep? The 7th Day Adventists state this begins at the failed prophecy date of 1844 starting with Adam. KJV onlyists and Spiritists say God only sleeps for an infinitesimal nanosecond. Who really considers that genuine sleep? Verses 15-18 explain how God brings those with Jesus. "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and left unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep" (1 Thess. 4.15). It's plainly stated how: "alive and left unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep." Everyone who is saved is sleeping and will not be raised up until the coming of the Lord with those who are alive and remain. This gives others comfort to know that if we were to die today, the Lord waits to resurrect us all together, and there is not some Pentecostal or KJV onlyist idolatry party going on in Heaven: as much as these sects and parties are anticipated. Treating others as I would be treated, I don't desire to be in Heaven thousands of years before my brothers and sisters. That would make me sad actually and would feel selfish. Do you have a conscience to feel this way under such a scenario?
"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us" (Heb. 12.1). Who are these cloud of witnesses? Could they be angels? What about those who come after us who read our testimony? What about those who are resting? Though they can't see us, we can anthropomorphize them as witnesses to us, for Jesus said if you won't accept the Moses and the Prophets, what makes you think you will accept Him? "But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep" (Job 14.10-12). "For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" (Ps. 6.5). Doesn't sound like the person's spirit is in heaven yet. Revelation 5 says we are compassed about by angels. The archangels declare, "And hast made them unto our God kings and priests: and they shall reign on the earth" (Rev. 5.10). Angels are singing and testifying, not those in soul sleep. "And they sung a new song, saying..." (v.9). Even so, the saints who have died testify by their lives, just as Abraham said to the Rich Man if they don't accept the testimony of the prophets, what will they accept?
But "We groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven" (2 Cor. 5.2). "For we will not be spirits without bodies, but we will put on new heavenly bodies" (v.3 NLT). Paul said we will not be spirits without bodies in heaven though we grown for our new bodies. I agree.
To be saved is not a survivor game so you can't stay saved or be saved of your own strength, but to be saved qualifies you to run the race towards overcoming in Christ and receive the reward of returning with Him. This is what Paul was looking forward to, never thinking he could lose life. "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit" (1 Pet. 3.18). God can now bring us to Him when He resurrects us together out of soul sleep, and He will do so at the consummation of this age only!
Christians are at the right hand of God!? What Christian would exalt himself that way? "That raised Christ from the dead and seated him in the place of honor at God's right hand in the heavenly realms" (Eph. 1.20). Jesus has been resurrected not us. Our spirit touches the heavenlies but nowhere do we find in God's word Christians are resurrected already spirit, soul or body. We are triune beings, and you can't separate our three parts.
"Who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ" (Eph. 1.3). Our blessing has not reached its fulfillment until we are resurrected together. There is no intermediate state of a party of naked-goers without their bodies in Heaven and who managed to bypass Judgment-Seat. What heresy! Your conscience is seared. Those who live in their feelings may believe this, but not those who are in their spirit quickened with God's life. Think how mocking it is to God to say you are going to party-it-up in Heaven for thousands of years naked before God without consequences of the Judgment-Seat. Don't get me wrong. I love a good party, but not a party that drugs itself up in a lie.
Think what it is like for those who though were not killed endured much pain and suffering during the Great Tribulation and you tell them, there has been a party going on in Heaven of people without bodies and who have not had to address the Judgment-Seat, but when you are raptured with them and they are resurrected, only then do they have to address Judgment-Seat. What a sick and twisted God that is. We are warned about those who engage in a party spirit. The Bible warns about this kind of mentality: "heresies" or "schools of opinion" or "sects" or "parties" or "party spirit" or "factions" or "divisions" (Gal. 5.20). A party of naked souls? I wonder what that would look like.
"By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison" (1 Pet. 3.19), the demons who did not keep their proper abode (http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?3606-Sons-of-God-Jesus-Preached-Unto-These-Spirits-in-Prison&p=7098#post7098). Angels are spirits. There are two kinds of evil spirits. The fallen angels and the demons. The Deep or Abyss is not Hades.
Men are living souls with a body and a spirit. We are not spirits, so Jesus was not preaching to humans.
To lead captivity captive is unto regeneration with the Lord. It is not speaking of being taken out of Hades for you know what the Bible says, "For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption" (Acts 13.36). Still no verses for raised up spirits at death. That belongs in the movies. "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day" " (Acts 2.29). Still David has not been raised. "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand" (Acts 2.34). Not even David, a man after God's own heart, has his soul and spirit raised to heaven yet because he has received no new body yet. Enoch and Elijah were raptured alive, but even them, they will die as the Two Witnesses, since man is appointed once to die.
"We groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven" (2 Cor. 5.2). "For we will not be spirits without bodies, but we will put on new heavenly bodies" (v.3 NLT). A groaning is for new bodies; there is no issue with how long one spends in timeless unawares; we certainly will not be spirits without bodies, for that is the nature of angels not men. Why would you want to be an angel? Angels will eventually be lower than us.
Are those who were under the altar in Rev. 6.11 in heaven? "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held." When under the altar they were not in Heaven but are to be resurrected near the start of the 7 year Tribulation (partial rapture of martyrs and living overcomers at Rev. 7.9).
Let us prove the altar in the 5th seal is not in Heaven to prove the point. The altar here must be the altar of sacrifices (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/5thseal.htm)—for the following reasons.
(1) According to Old Testament typology, no one should go up to the altar with his nakedness uncovered (Ex. 20.26). This signifies that no naked body can meet God. Anyone who does not have a resurrection body is considered naked, and therefore he cannot appear before God. For this reason, 2 Corinthians 5.4 speaks about being “clothed upon” with a new body. (After a person is dead, his soul does not go to God right away.) Without resurrection, no one can stand beside the golden altar of incense.
"Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon" (Ex. 20.26) - You can't go before the High Priest naked.
(2) When the Bible speaks of altar, it always refers to the altar of sacrifice. Special descriptive words such as “golden”, “incense”, and so forth are used to refer to the golden altar of incense so as to distinguish it from the altar standing in the outer court.
(3) The blood of all the sacrifices flows down underneath the altar (Ex. 29.12; Lev. 4.7, 5.9).
(4) There is life in the blood, and this word “life” in the original Hebrew is the word “soul” (Lev. 17.11 mg., 17.14). “Underneath the altar” means underneath the earth. The altar typifies the cross; beneath the cross is the earth. Hence underneath the altar here refers to Paradise in the heart of the earth (Matt. 12.40). We notice the following clause in Acts 2.27: “because thou wilt not leave my soul unto Hades”; moreover, in Numbers 16.32 it is stated that “the earth opened its mouth, and swallowed them up, and their households, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods” (Not only may no man appear before God without a body, neither may he enter the lake of fire without a body.).
"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Matt. 12.40). How can men spend lest time in Hades than Jesus did?
These martyrs were resting. After being resurrected, given white robes, they ask the Lord how much longer till the rest of their brethren come in? And the Lord Jesus said, "rest yet for a little season" (Rev. 6.11) because there is only about 7 to 9 years left before Jesus steps down on the mount of olives. I put 2 years in front of the 7 year Tribulation in the event the Tetrad of 2014-2015 are the events related in Rev. 6.12.
These are saints under the altar in Paradise below and not Paradise above and are only awakened when they are near to the Tribulation period.
Try some other proofs for timeless unawares:
Your Soul and Spirit Sleep and Wait for Resurrection (http://biblocality.com/forums/entry.php?12-Your-Soul-and-Spirit-Sleep-and-Wait-for-Resurrection)
Soul Sleep is True: Timeless Unawares the Place of Rest (http://biblocality.com/forums/content.php?128-Soul-Sleep-is-True-Timeless-Unawares-the-Place-of-Rest)