You Need to Be Regenerated Before You Can Be Born-Again?

[Churchwork]

Re: http://www.youtube.com/user/MODERATECALVINISM


I agree God has provided grace for all. Arminians call it common grace. However nowhere does the scriptures teach that common grace eradicates total depravity. That is done through regeneration. If it were not done by regeneration, then then would be no reason to be born again after you believe

First you must establish Total depravity even exists that man can't respond or according to most Calvinists, that God's grace either common or special grace of gospel are insufficient, making him unable to respond unless their god regenerates man first. Hence, a person can respond to God's sufficient grace, so if a person is willing to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated, they are forgiven, their sins washed away and given eternal life. God never as you say regenerates the person first. Jacob Arminius did not believe in Total depravity. He believed we had free will and human ability to respond to God because God gave us sufficient grace to be able to do so. We did not have to be regenerated first for man was fallen not Totally depraved. Man is made in God's image, able to respond to God's grace and therefore, not Totally depraved. A dead man can respond to the Gospel and ought to because his spirit is dead to God.

Arminians call God's grace inclusive for all, giving both common grace and special grace of the gospel where needed. Common grace is given to all, but some receive special grace of the gospel also. Some need more, some need less grace, depending on our predisposition. In all cases, the grace is always sufficient. For example a person on a remote island somewhere is not prevented from being saved because he was not a Jew or Jesus had not yet come or did not have access to the Scriptures. He is not regenerated first irresistibly. God never forces Himself on anyone, just as it would be wrong for us to, but gives them the choice, and does not pass over others (preterition), because that would be evil too. Humans are born into sin which is not our fault (don't let a Calvinist tell you otherwise), but it is our fault if we don't respond to God's enabling grace to be savingly regenerated.

Notice your doubletongue when you said a person has to be regenerated first otherwise you said there is no need for them to be born-again. That makes no sense. You're saying a person has to be born-again otherwise there is no need for them to be born-again!? If that makes sense I am a monkey's uncle. Regeneration and the new birth are the same thing. God is not partial to anyone. He regenerates only those who respond to His sufficient grace that is for all.

The precious blood of Jesus covers everyone's sins, including that person on that remote island previously mentioned. The sufficiency of God's grace including common grace allows a person to respond to the Creator and Savior. The reason you need to be born-again is the same reason you need to be regenerated since regeneration and being born-again are the new birth - the very same thing.

Romans 1.20 is a good verse that reveals God's common grace is sufficient which disproves your theory that it is insufficient. "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse." You are WITHOUT EXCUSE! You would only have a valid excuse if your god was true having to regenerate people before they could be saved. You can only receive initial salvation (regeneration) once.

[moderatecalvinism]

"then then would be no reason to be born again after you believe"

As seen in my post and as I told you in emails prior.. I believe man has the free will to respond to God. That is only after God draws him (John 6:44) Secondly I believe faith precedes regeneration as seen in my qoute above. I believe you need to take the time to read what I wrote instead of assuming what I believe

[Churchwork]

only after God draws him

done by regeneration, then then would be no reason to be born again after you believe
You need address your contradiction instead of avoiding it. Face it head on.

As was said in Youtube messages and the previous post which you fail to address, this is a contradiction. Since regeneration and born-again are the same thing, it makes no sense to say unless a person is born again then there would be no reason to be born-again after you believe.

Satan is a doubletalker. God says be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8).

done by being born-again ---> believe ---> born-again. WRONG! You can't be born-again twice.

God draws everyone since His grace is sufficient for all so nobody is Totally depraved. So...

Totally depravity is false. You don't have to be regenerated before being regenerated. God doesn't draw just some people, but everyone; that's why we can all respond. The precious blood of Jesus atones for the sins of the whole world even those who only ever knew common grace.

[moderatecalvinism]

Adhominem attacks are fruitless. Secondly you need to read once again. Let me parse it for you (born again after you believe) this means faith precedes regeneration. I have posted so many videos proving how faith precedes regeneration it is funny that someone would present a strawman against me saying that I believe regeneration precedes faith. I suggest you read before you post, it will be alot more fruitful. Gb

[Churchwork]

Adhominem attacks are fruitless. Secondly you need to read once again. Let me parse it for you (born again after you believe) this means faith precedes regeneration. I have posted so many videos proving how faith precedes regeneration it is funny that someone would present a strawman against me saying that I believe regeneration precedes faith. I suggest you read before you post, it will be alot more fruitful. Gb
I am glad you couldn't show an ad hominem attack. Well looks like I am not going to get you to address your specific contradiction: "done by regeneration, then then would be no reason to be born again after you believe." Let's try another approach to help you see Total depravity is heresy...

A person who you claim is Totally depraved can't respond to the Gospel you said unless God draws them.

But since God draws everyone then nobody is Totally depraved. Do you see that? Hence, to teach Total depravity as the reason why some people go to Hell is a lie.

At the fall man never becomes Totally depraved or anytime after that because God always provides sufficient grace. Praise the Lord!

Therefore, Total depravity is just a pet teaching, an idol, a false teaching that most Calvinists use to eternally separate themselves from God. It's very sad really.

[moderatecalvinism]

More fruitless discussion if you want to know what I believe watch this video. I believe God draws everyone, I also believe you are deemed a heretic even from an arminian standard seeing as you deny original sin (no total depravity) this is called pelegianism it has been deemed a heresy since Christianity arose.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XAiKO0dPps

[Churchwork]

More fruitless discussion if you want to know what I believe watch this video. I believe God draws everyone, I also believe you are deemed a heretic even from an arminian standard seeing as you deny original sin (no total depravity) this is called pelegianism it has been deemed a heresy since Christianity arose.
I believe in original sin as do all Arminians accepting the fallen nature. The fallen nature of mankind is not the same thing as Total depravity. Total depravity teaches that a person can't respond to the Gospel due to an alleged Total inability. Because you believe in Total depravity that makes you a pelagian denying the original sin, for original sin doesn't mean Total depravity. Calvinists don't believe in original sin, for original sin doesn't make you Totally depraved since God's grace is sufficient for all.

Atonement is not limited, but unlimited because Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the whole world, so that video is wrong which you said you agreed with which says atonement is limited.

God does predestinate by foreknowing our free-choice, but that video says God does not. In your profile you agreed God predestinates by foreknowing our free choice (answered "Yes"), so you contradict yourself again when you said you agreed with the video you posted.

Total depravity does mean Total inability, but that video says it does not mean Total inability. Recall you said before Total depravity does mean Total inability so you disagree with the video again. But you said you agreed with the video?

Limited atonement is mutually exclusive of unlimited atonement. Both cannot be true at the same time. The atonement from God's perspective is available to us all, and from our perspective anyone of us can be saved whosoever is willing.

It sounds to me like you are embarrassed by Calvinism but still unwilling to let go by holding onto the idol of Total depravity which is why these contradictions remain in your heart.

Your Total inability teaching is false.

[moderatecalvinism]

I dont believe it as they teach it either. This is clearly laid out in the video I provided

[Churchwork]

I dont believe it as they teach it either. This is clearly laid out in the video I provided
You said for the above video "if you want to know what I believe watch this video". I did. Now you are changing your mind and say you "don't believe it"?

Just know what you believe is false because Total depravity is a false. We are not Totally depraved, but made in God's image and given the grace to be able to respond. Amen.

[moderatecalvinism]

Can you show me how in the video I said I believe it as they do ? Strawman anyone?

I believe all are drawn, calvinist do not.

[Churchwork]

Can you show me how in the video I said I believe it as they do ? Strawman anyone?

I believe all are drawn, calvinist do not.
You said, "if you want to know what I believe watch this video." You're a doubletalker. Now you say you don't agree with that video. You call yourself a Calvinist but accuse calvinists yet still remain a Calvinist. You're accusing yourself so you should repent and receive God according to OSAS Arminian.

Moreover, since you agree God draws everyone, then nobody is Totally depraved, yet you still cling to this heresy and idolatry called Total depravity.

Total depravity is Total inability, so that is another contradiction on your part, for how can a person be Totally unable if God draws everyone, providing everyone sufficient grace?

[moderatecalvinism]

Not to be rude, but can you read ? I made the video, therefore I agree with it. Stop wasting my time and prove your strawman too be a real argument. This discussion is growing old, seeing as everything I say you do not understand. Your thing says discerning Spirits but you cannot even discern what the words on the page mean.

1. Either you cannot understand what you read or
2. You are twisting my words to make them say something they do not, which makes you a deceiver

[Churchwork]

Not to be rude, but can you read ? I made the video, therefore I agree with it. Stop wasting my time and prove your strawman too be a real argument. This discussion is growing old, seeing as everything I say you do not understand. Your thing says discerning Spirits but you cannot even discern what the words on the page mean.

1. Either you cannot understand what you read or
2. You are twisting my words to make them say something they do not, which makes you a deceiver
You said you "made the video, therefore" you "agree with it" and said, "know what I believe watch this video [post #6] (http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?3600-You-Need-to-Be-Regenerated-Before-You-Can-Be-Born-Again&p=7186#post7186)", but after I dissected the video in [post #7] (http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?3600-You-Need-to-Be-Regenerated-Before-You-Can-Be-Born-Again&p=7187#post7187) to show you its contradictions, then you said in post #8, you "don't believe it as they teach it. This is clearly laid out in the video I provided". First you provided the video in defense of Calvinism, then said you disagree with it, now you say you agree with it again. The evil spirit loves his doubletongue capabilities.

What you did was careless produce a Calvinist video for your defense, but when I examined it you had to admit you disagree with this video while at the same time you also say you agree with it. You're being deceitful and dishonest with your doubletongue.

There is no teaching of Total depravity in the Bible. You're not Totally unable. God has provided sufficient grace to be able to respond. To be regenerated, you will need to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. You are able to repent and believe in Christ because God has given you the grace to be able to do so; therefore, you are not Totally depraved. Get rid of this idol because it keeps you separated from God. God is not interested in your selfish version of salvation.

[moderatecalvinism]

Hmmm. I agree with what I said in the video. I dont agree with the way Calvinist teach total depravity. Do you not see the difference in the video between total depravity the way calvinist teach it and the way I taught it ? Two totally different things. Slow down and learn... Dont try to refute calvinist or moderate calvinist if you dont know what either of them believe. You cannot see the difference between the two doctrines because you have not studied either of them, therefore they look the same to you.


Total Depravity

Extreme Calvinism

Moderate Calvinism

Extreme Calvinism defines total depravity as total inability. They mean the elimination of all human ability to understand or respond to God. The effects of sin destroyed man's ability to accept God's gift of salvation. The human will is in bondage to sin and cannot respond to the call of God unto salvation. Fallen man is unable to choose the gift of salvation. The sinner is not a free agent because he is a slave to sin. Extreme Calvinism concludes that the non-elect are unable to repent and believe. Therefore God has to first regenerate man and give him faith before he can believe and be born again.

Moderate Calvinism maintains that man's depravity is “total.” Since the fall of Adam all men are born in sin with Adam's sin nature. There is no part of man's nature that was not affected by sin. Man is totally depraved, and unable to change his inherit sin nature. But total depravity does not mean total inability. Man's will is free to choose the gift of salvation. The basis or ground of human responsibility is human ability. Even though man does have a free will, he has no capacity for saving himself. God graciously draws people to Himself, but free will is the means by which salvation is received.
Please dont respond with more negligence

[Churchwork]

I have studied, that's how I know all 5 points of Calvinism are false especially Total depravity. If God draws everyone then how can anyone be Totally depraved? It's not possible because His grace is sufficient for us all. Therefore, nobody is Totally depraved. You are not allowed to change the meaning of Total depravity as classically presented by Calvinists from Total inability to merely only man is fallen, needs to be saved, can't save himself, but needs God's grace. That was never the meaning of Total depravity. Satan is the author of confusion. Think of it this way. Now there is no word that distinguishes for Calvinists their Total depravity from free will ability, because you have sought it upon yourself to change the meaning of words. So what you are doing is wrong.

You said you agreed with the video that says atonement is limited, but if grace is sufficient for all and Jesus died for all, then atonement is unlimited. The teachings of limited and unlimited atonement are mutually exclusive as are all 5 points of Calvinism and Arminianism.

You said you agree with the video which says God does not predestinate by foreknowing our free choice, but your profile says you agree God does predestinates by foreknowing our free-choice. Your negligent doubletalk does not go unnoticed.

The video you gave says Total depravity does not mean Total inability, but you say it does in some of your old YouTube quotes. I thought you said you agree with the video? Now you are changing your story again, and say Total depravity does not mean Total inability. You said you are not part of "extreme calvinism that defines total depravity as total inability." Your view you said is that "man's depravity is 'total...totally depraved'" which is exact same phrase ALL Calvinists use. Not Christians.

From the classical origination of the definition of the battle between Arminianism and Calvinism of how one receives Christ, Total depravity doesn't apply to Arminianism but only to Calvinism and doesn't simply only mean every part of our being is affected by sin, but Total inability, so you are seeking merely to change the times and the ways. That's all.

Please don't respond with more negligence and deceit.

It will help for you to see at any moment in time the whole human race is not Totally depraved for we are made in God's image. Is God's image Totally depraved? Of course not. The fallen nature does not mean "unable to change", for man can change by receiving what Jesus did for us by the grace of God. You've got a doubletongue which is unavoidable if you still call yourself a Calvinist of any type. You still call yourself a Calvinist. You may say you don't believe in Total inability depravity, but effectively that is what you are saying when you claim you are a Calvinist and when you say man is "unable to change."

The problem is easily solved when you accept Arminianism and denounce Calvinism entirely, not only partially. However, the problem is you are so invested into Moderate Calvinism, your fleshly must rationalize it somehow, instead of simply being Arminian. Don't sin bearing false witness against Jacob Arminius. John Calvin taught Total depravity is Total inability, and that is Calvinism. If you don't want to believe that anymore then you are not a Calvinist, so stop calling yourself a Calvinist. Change your YouTube user name. Start over. Get saved. If you are unwilling to, then there is something in the recesses of your heart and spirit that continues to keep yourself separated from God whereby the evil spirit of Calvinism still has a hold on you.

There are only 3 possibilities. Calvinism (and all its variants, e.g. 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 pointers), OSAS Arminian, and non-OSAS Arminian. The only correct way God saves is OSAS Arminian. That may be difficult for you to stomach but it is a fact. All 5 points of Calvinism are a unit. Anytime you change that you contradict yourself. John Calvin was a murderous tyrant.

My prayers go out to you that you can yet repent of Calvinism.

[moderatecalvinism]

You said:
If God draws everyone then how can anyone be Totally depraved? It's not possible because His grace is sufficient for us all.

Define Total Depravity..

You said:"You said you agreed with the video that says atonement is limited, but if grace is sufficient for all and Jesus died for all, then atonement is unlimited."

The video says Christ made atonement for all men.. Not some as Calvinism teaches...

You said:You said you agree with the video which says God does not predestinate by foreknowing our free choice, but your profile says you agree God does predestinates by foreknowing our free-choice.

Umm, I just pressed yes to all of the questions. I did not read any of them. Frankly, a person should not have to fill those out to post in a forum.. However God does foreknow our free choice however predestination is in accordance with his foreknowledge not based on them. The scriptures never say it is predestination is based on foreknowledge. However the scriptures to say he predestines in accordance with foreknowledge.

You said:The video you gave says Total depravity does not mean Total inability, but you say it does in some of your old YouTube quotes.

That is a lie. I said we are unable to initiate salvation. We must be drawn by God we are unable to save ourselves. That is what moderate calvinism and arminianism teaches. If you deny that you are a heretic because you follow pelegians teachings.

You said:From the classical origination......

What ??? Tell me what Arminian Theologian have you studied or studied under ?

You have not studied Arminianism Calvinism nor Moderate Calvinism it is clear by your responses and lack of clarity. If I am wrong please tell me who you studied under.. How long have you been studying Arminianism ? Calvinism ? Or Moderate Calvinism ? What books have you read ? What authors do you follow ? Where do you get your information ? It is clear to me that you get your info from blogs or forums..... Study on your own... Read Jacob Arminius, John Calvin, Norman Geisler. That is the best advice I can give you. If you really desire to learn I can send you in the direction of free resources where you can read their works...

[Churchwork]

Total depravity is Total inability. That's the view of all Calvinists. If you want to change the meaning then you are Arminian. Accept it.

The video said atonement is limited and unlimited which is a contradiction.

These forums are for Apostles and Elders, so that is why the questions exist for the Apostles to establish their agreement. The questions are created by Apostles for Apostles and so the Church knows who the Apostles are. This is explained at the outset when you registered. I guess you didn't pay attention. Biblocality Forums are not your typical forums. It is to assist the highest workers for the Church as servants to the body of Christ.

You're being dishonest not answering the questions honestly. This is in violation with the registration. If you can't be honest at the outset, why should anyone here think you can be honest in other matters? You could have answered "Not sure" to the questions not having read them fully, but instead you chose to be deceitful and answered all the questions with a "Yes". It says something about you.

You said you agree God predestinates by foreknowing our free choice, but the video you said you agree with does not believe God predestinates by foreknowing our free choice. Why present a video that you don't agree with?

In your YouTube quotes you said Total depravity means Total inability. That's what you said. Now you are changing your story to agree with the video which says Total depravity does not mean Total inability. You're a liar. And your story changes with the wind in your contradictions.

Arminians don't believe what moderate Calvinists believe, for Arminians don't believe in Total depravity so your attempt to marry them is disingenuous. The Holy Spirit tells me you are just trying to be couth.

Jacob Arminius in his writings defines Arminianism. God predestinates by foreknowing our free-choice: a conditional election, unlimited atonement, resistible grace, for preservation of the saints. You really need to read Dave Hunt's, What Love is This? It is the consummate work on the subject. Some have said it is the definitive work on the Arminian Calvinism debate for the rest of this century. Dave Hunt time and again suggests Calvinists are not born-again. Who are the false Christians if not Calvinists especially moderates?

There is only one version of Arminianism, but your Calvinism has multiple versions which shows there is a problem. You guys can never agree with each other. When you contradict each other so much it might be time to denounce all things Calvinism and give your life to Christ and be saved God's way according to OSAS Arminian.

I agree with Dave Hunt that Norman Geisler is wrong in promoting Total depravity. You are not allowed to redefine the term Total depravity. I was born-again January, 2001 and it was not long after I heard the term Calvinism and some of its ideas. The Holy Spirit immediately stirred in me to realize Calvinism is demonic.

You're not a Christian, for the simple reason that you call yourself a Calvinist. Calvinists teach limited atonement, resistible grace, unconditional election, Total depravity and forced OSAS. You might even say you disagree with all these 5 points, but if you still call yourself a Calvinist in any way shape or form, it's clear you are not born-again and are just being intellectually dishonest with yourself. If I ever became a Calvinist like you, I would admit freely I was never born-again to begin with instead of rationalizing my flesh like you do.

My prayers go out to you you don't have to remain as you are.