Finestwheat
12-27-2009, 11:20 AM
Is this God's golden chain of redemption? Or is this passage looking upon our blessing to which God has predestined the redemed He foreknew, the tribulations they will suffer in this life, and their eternal security in Christ?
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate" (Rom. 8:29) or was it "For whom he did predestinate, he also did foreknow"?
If all God did was predestinate and that's why He foreknew, then God did not require our response. But instead, He foreknew our free-choice, and intimately so, so He predestinated us to eternal salvation.
And was it "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called" (v. 30) or "Moreover whom he did call, them he also predestinated"?
If God merely only called (an effectual call) and then predestinated them, there would be no response required on our part relationally. But God did predestinate whom He foreknew our free-choice and thus were called.
What's more, how is personally knowing someone supposed to cause them to do something? so it would be odd to translate "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate" as "For whom he did personally know, he also did predestinate". Of course, the Calvinist might say either way you order it, God is still doing it, or 'personally knowing' and 'predestinating' is not a cause and effect relationship. But we Christians like to think when God foreknows something it is more than just personally knowing. He is foreknowing something about our choices. There wouldn't be much comfort if He didn't as an all-knowing God.
The spirit of Calvinism reminds me of a motorist driving by and seeing a person limping and bloodied walking along the side of the road and just passing her by, no offer of help whatsoever. Then the driver comes across another person a little further up who also is in a similar condition, but instead of the motorist driving by this time, or stopping and ask what happened and to offer help, he takes the injured person (perhaps he had gotten into a fight with the previous person) who said he is fine and does not want any help (or perhaps he does want help and would have accepted a gracious offer), and yanks him by the collar and throws him into the back of the car which has a glass wall separating the front seat from the back seat area.
Do you really want to keep worshiping this spirit of Calvinism?
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate" (Rom. 8:29) or was it "For whom he did predestinate, he also did foreknow"?
If all God did was predestinate and that's why He foreknew, then God did not require our response. But instead, He foreknew our free-choice, and intimately so, so He predestinated us to eternal salvation.
And was it "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called" (v. 30) or "Moreover whom he did call, them he also predestinated"?
If God merely only called (an effectual call) and then predestinated them, there would be no response required on our part relationally. But God did predestinate whom He foreknew our free-choice and thus were called.
What's more, how is personally knowing someone supposed to cause them to do something? so it would be odd to translate "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate" as "For whom he did personally know, he also did predestinate". Of course, the Calvinist might say either way you order it, God is still doing it, or 'personally knowing' and 'predestinating' is not a cause and effect relationship. But we Christians like to think when God foreknows something it is more than just personally knowing. He is foreknowing something about our choices. There wouldn't be much comfort if He didn't as an all-knowing God.
The spirit of Calvinism reminds me of a motorist driving by and seeing a person limping and bloodied walking along the side of the road and just passing her by, no offer of help whatsoever. Then the driver comes across another person a little further up who also is in a similar condition, but instead of the motorist driving by this time, or stopping and ask what happened and to offer help, he takes the injured person (perhaps he had gotten into a fight with the previous person) who said he is fine and does not want any help (or perhaps he does want help and would have accepted a gracious offer), and yanks him by the collar and throws him into the back of the car which has a glass wall separating the front seat from the back seat area.
Do you really want to keep worshiping this spirit of Calvinism?