Popularity of Historicism

[PeteWaldo]

Darby was correct.

I held the doctrine myself for quite a few years, and it might be best if we could set this discussion aside and focus on Islam vs Christianity. This isn't why I came here, but rather than my own words let me start with a quote from Dr. Harry Ironside of Moody Bible Institute who was no lightweight when it comes to futurist doctrine. In his Mysteries of God he wrote on p.50: ". . . until brought to the fore through the writings of . . . Mr. J. N. Darby, the doctrine taught by Dr. Scofield [ie. 7 year tribulation pre-trib "rapture"] is scarcely to be found in a single book throughout a period of 1600 years. If any doubt this statement, let them search, as the writer has in measure done, the remarks of the so-called Fathers, both pre- and post-Nicene, the theological treatises of the scholastic divines . . . the literature of the reformation . . . the Puritans. He will find the 'mystery' conspicuous by its absence."

Don't we have to wonder how the church could have missed what Darby taught for 1800 years? It would be hard to make the case that it was the unsealing of the book of Daniel, unless the mid-19th century was within Daniel's "time of the end", wouldn't it?

More importantly it's interesting to note that the two most popular eschatologies in the 20th century church, partial preterism and futurism, both necessarily preclude that Mohammed could be the false prophet of Revelation. One making him a fixture of the first century and the other a figure of some future someday. Yet each view must believe the other to be virtually 100% wrong in regard to their understanding of the book of Revelation after chapter 3, because there is a gulf of 1900 years that divides the two views.

This, even as 1/4 of mankind - 1.5 billion people - follow the false prophet Mohammed today, as his minions have for 1400 years, specifically with the single most important fundamental of his religion being antichrist. Each and every Muslim filled with the spirit of antichrist. With the addition of one of the next most important fundamentals being denying the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.
The only anti-another-religion, religion, by design. The enemy's design.

Yet virtually all Christians and Jews understand Old Testament prophecy through the continuous-historic context. That is that prophecy is fulfilled steadily as the era about which is is written gradually unfolds. For example our understanding that Daniel's kingdom "beasts" were a succession of kingdoms that followed each other gradually over hundreds of years in the prophet's future.

Where is the temple of God?

[Nottheworld]

You are going to be deceived by the Antichrist because he is a concept to you, not a living breathing person at the consummation of this age. You'll be taken up and deceived by a great man because he is fulfilling amillennial visions for the future.

There were lots of premillennialists each century even though the Roman Church grew stronger and stronger and still powerful today. I even have quotes of partial rapture premillennialists from many of the centuries. But your true test is what did the earliest church fathers teach? They mostly taught chiliasm which is premillennialism (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Earlychurchfathers.htm). Still amillennialism is the most popular with Eastern Orthodox, Lutheranism, Roman Church and other denominations, but it wasn't so in the beginning and certainly not in Scripture.

1000 years will end at some point. The nations are still deceived which they won't be in the 1000 years. We are currently in Revelation 6. First rapture takes place at Revelation 7.9. Revelation 4 is the picture today of the universe from heaven. And Revelation recounts the cross with the 1st seal where you see the bow without an arrow which looks like the cross giving Satan a deadly wound.

Muhammad is dead. He is not THE False Prophet. Oprah Winfrey (http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3063&highlight=Oprah) is the best contestant for the False Prophet. And Barack Hussein Obama (http://biblocality.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6301&postcount=13) is the most likely candidate for the Antichrist.

Yes preterism is wrong, Jesus has not returned. He is not reigning with an iron rod, just as amillennialism is wrong because we are not in the 1000 years. If we were the nations would not still be warring (see Rev. 20.3) and Jesus would have returned by now.

Your teaching is called antinomianism, because there is no accountability for believers during the time of recompense. This will make you sluff off.

The Antichrist is described as a living person, not some memory of a dead person of some religion.

In the book of Revelation the first beast represents Antichrist as well as the Roman Empire.

"The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is" (Rev. 17.8).

In this connection, though, it points to a man, not to a state. The reasons for this view are as follows:

(1) This beast “was”—How then can we say that the Roman Empire once existed earlier prior to the time of John?

(2) The beast “is not”—Yet neither can we say that the Roman Empire did not exist at John’s time.

(3) The beast “is about to come up out of the abyss”—Abyss is the place where the spirits are imprisoned. How can we therefore say that the Roman Empire is about to come out of the abyss?

(4) The beast is “to go into perdition”—How, moreover, can we say that the political entity known as the Roman Empire will go into hell in the future?

Since, from this reasoning, this beast cannot apply to the Roman Empire, it must have reference to Antichrist. “Was” shows that before the time of John there was such a person who once lived on earth.

“Is not” indicates that at John’s time this man is not in the world since he must have died. The phrase “is not” is also used in Genesis 42.36-38 to indicate death.

“Is about to come up out of the abyss” reveals that he is now in the abyss but will come out of it, that is to say, he will be resuscitated.
“Go into perdition” discloses that he will not live forever on earth, neither can he rule forever, because his destiny will be that of being cast into the lake of fire (19.20, 20.10).

His being “was, and is not, and is about to come” is a clever counterfeiting of God “who is and who was and who is to come” (cf. 1.4,8; 4.8).

“And they that dwell on the earth shall wonder”—And this wonderment will eventually lead them to worship the beast (13.12). Only those whom God has chosen will be kept. All whose names have been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will be preserved by God and kept from worshiping the beast.

[PeteWaldo]

Sorry, I didn't see these messages piling up.


You are going to be deceived by the Antichrist because he is a concept to you, not a living breathing person at the consummation of this age. You'll be taken up and deceived by a great man because he is fulfilling amillennial visions for the future.

But from where I stand I see virtually the whole western church blind to the fact that there are 1.5 billion antichrists in the world today. Though it's probably not lost in the tribulation of the 2 billion slain, in the Sudan alone.

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/0ce2cc90.jpg

So who's deceived? Do any of the 4 verses that contain the term antichrist indicate a single individual?
If so please show me. (Let's use the KJV rather than some pop-bible)

[PeteWaldo]

Muhammad is dead. He is not THE False Prophet.

Why does that preclude him from being the false prophet?

[PeteWaldo]

In the book of Revelation the first beast represents Antichrist as well as the Roman Empire.

Daniel defined the term "beast" when used in the figurative language of a vision or dream in prophecy. Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth...

Where do you find it redifined in the same context of a dream or vision in scripture?

BEAST = KINGDOM

Daniel's lion, bear and leopard kingdom "beasts" are understood broadly among Christians and Jews, as being the successive kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece. These figures reappear together in scripture only one more time - in Revelation Chapter 13 - but combined into a single composite "beast" - kingdom.

Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. (Daniel's also assigned the masculine gender to kingdom beasts)

The reverse order was perhaps because Daniel was forward looking at these kingdoms to unfold in his future, while John was looking backward at their fulfillment. The seats of the ancient successive kingdom beasts of Daniel's lion, bear and leopard which are widely believed to be Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece, are occupied today by the countries of Iraq, Iran, and Syria/Lebanon. The dragon in the verse above is Satan that gave this Islamic beast his seat.

It is described "as a leopard" perhaps because while an individual Muslim can change, it is impossible for Islam to change, as long as the Quran (mouth) exists:

Jerimiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? [then] may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

While these countries and various sects of Islam may have differences, and some with national sovereignty, they are perfectly united spiritually through the false prophet Mohammed and his Quran. As a result they are filled with the spirit of antichrist because their belief that God has no Son, or "shirk", is the most important fundamental in Islam.
Iraq 97%, Iran 98%, Syria/Lebanon 90%/60% Islamic.

Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

Once we understand the Islamic empire as the "beast" of revelation 13 the identity of the false prophet Mohammed comes sharply into focus.

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/216a3a30.jpg

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/214a3a60.jpg

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/238a3a60.jpg

The leopard-bear-lion

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/1f5a3aa0.png

[PeteWaldo]

By the way, Historicism is a doctrine to which I do not describe and is an entirely inappropriate place to put this. They believe that the pope/papacy is "The" "Antichrist" etc. etc.

It belongs in a section called something like "traditional continuous-historic view of prophecy".

[Nottheworld]

Christendom may be deceived but not the Church-body of Christ. Just because you may not be deceived by Islam, doesn't mean you are not going to be deceived by the Antichrist. If your eye is on Islam and not observing the rise of the Antichrist from within Christendom you will be fooled.

In Rev. 2 & 3, the first series of church letters was written before “the last days”; on the other hand, the latter set was written during “the last days.” 1 John 2.18, for example, clearly mentions another time—“the last hour”: “Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that Antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour.” Christians who only read the first series of Church letters will not be able to understand God’s will for the last days. The last 4 church mentalities are still with us.

"Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son" (1 John 2.22).

This is not specifically referring to the Antichrist.

"And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world" (1 John 4.3).

These are antichrists not the Antichrist.

"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist" (2 John 1.7).

They are antichrists.

Of these 4 verses, only 1 John 2.18 speaks directly of the Antichrist in the last hour (Daniel's last seven).

[Nottheworld]

Why does that preclude him from being the false prophet?
Where did I say he is precluded from being a false prophet? I said, "Muhammad is dead. He is not THE False Prophet", the 2nd beast in Revelation.

[Nottheworld]

By the way, Historicism is a doctrine to which I do not describe and is an entirely inappropriate place to put this. They believe that the pope/papacy is "The" "Antichrist" etc. etc.

It belongs in a section called something like "traditional continuous-historic view of prophecy".
Historicism is the name for all historical views such as preterism, partial preterism, postmillennialism and amillennialism. It even captures part of posttribulation rapture onlyism. Historicism simply means you treat most of the book of Revelation as already fulfilled. Whereas the futurist position says anywhere from up to chapter 3 to chapter 6 have been fulfilled.

Since the Roman Church first introduced amillennialism, it belongs here.

All historicism is wrong including your amillennialism.

[PeteWaldo]

Where did I say he is precluded from being a false prophet?

Review the post again. There is no need to add confusion like this for no reason. We were both talking about THE false prophet.


I said, "Muhammad is dead. He is not THE False Prophet", the 2nd beast in Revelation.

How does Mohammed's being dead preclude him from being the false prophet?
How does the two-horned beast of Rev 13 become a man, let alone a false prophet?
What does the first beast of Rev 13 as a man have to do with a lion, bear and leopard?

[Churchwork]

Pete, respond to my specific points above for Rev. 17.8.

[PeteWaldo]

Historicism is the name for all historical views such as preterism, partial preterism, postmillennialism and amillennialism.

This might help you overcome your error.
"Historicism stands in contrast to Preterism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preterism), Futurism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futurism_%28Christian_eschatology%29) and Idealism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism_%28Christian_eschatology%29)."
Which are the 4 contexts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicism_%28Christian_eschatology%29


It even captures part of posttribulation rapture onlyism.

I'm not familiar with such a doctrine.
Is this how you refer to the gathering of the elect at "the last trump"?

1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

We. If there's any "they" group I am quite confident I wouldn't want to be in it!

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Count me in the "we"s again!


Historicism simply means you treat most of the book of Revelation as already fulfilled.

The continuous historic view means that folks like myself understand that we should expect New Testament prophecy to be fulfilled in the very same manner in which we all understand that Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled. We join the ranks of those great men of the reformation.
As we now find ourselves in Daniel's "time of the end" I do indeed believe that much of the prophecy of the New Testament, and Revelation, has been fulfilled.


Whereas the futurist position says anywhere from up to chapter 3 to chapter 6 have been fulfilled.

Since the Roman Church first introduced amillennialism, it belongs here.

All historicism is wrong including your amillennialism.

The Roman Church and Orthodoxy hold primarily partial preterist views believing Rev fulfilled in the first century with the exception of Christ's return. Some suggesting that Nero was "The" "Antichrist"

[Nottheworld]

Review the post again. There is no need to add confusion like this for no reason. We were both talking about THE false prophet. How does Mohammed's being dead preclude him from being the false prophet? How does the two-horned beast of Rev 13 become a man, let alone a false prophet?
Oh I see what you mean. You think he is THE False Prophet. That surprised me because the Bible is clear THE False Prophet comes at the end of this age.

Revelation 13 hasn't happened yet obviously, since first rapture hasn't taken place (Rev. 7.9). Revelation is about future things especially the end of this age.

"And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon" (Rev. 13.11).

This beast is also a wild beast. Because he is to come up out of the earth he must also be a re-vitalized person, since Hades is beneath the earth. On the other hand, "earth" may have reference to the Jewish nation. The Scriptures often classify the earth as being symbolic of the nation of Israel.

This beast is the false prophet. He is a person since (1) three times the Bible calls him the false prophet (16.13, 19.20, 20.10), (2) the Lord has clearly stated that there will be false prophets (Matt. 24.24), and (3) there are three evil spirits: Satan, the beast (Antichrist), and another beast (the false prophet). Each has his mission to fulfill. Thus this beast cannot be a system but a person. At the time of evil, we have the counterfeit of the triune God.

"Two horns"—Since this beast is a person and not a kingdom, his two horns should signify two spirits; for the horns of the Lamb are referred to as being the Spirit of God (5.6), and the horns of the beast are like to those of the Lamb. "To give breath to it" (13.15) may be translated "to give spirit to it"; this is one spirit, and 16.13 tells of another spirit.

"And he spake as a dragon"—His speech is both deceitful and atrocious. Just as the first beast sits on the throne of the dragon, so this beast speaks the word of the dragon.

"And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed" (Rev. 13.12).

This second beast works by means of the authority of the first beast. As the Holy Spirit is the executor as well as the power in the Godhead, so the false prophet is the executor and the power of the trio of evil. "To worship" here is compulsory, unlike that mentioned in 13.4 which is voluntary.

There are many evidences to link the first beast with the revitalization of Nero. This second beast may very well be the return from the dead of the betrayer Judas. Acts 1.20, Psalm 69.25 and Psalm 109.8 all point to Judas, for Acts 1.20 quotes from Psalms 69 and 109. Psalm 109.6 declares: "Let Satan stand at his right hand" (mg.)—This is yet to be fulfilled. At the time of Christ, Satan entered into the heart of Judas; but not until the time of Revelation 13.12 will Satan stand at his right hand. We are also told in Acts 1: "that he might go to his own place" (v.25). Concerning other individuals the Scriptures always say he is "gathered to his own people" or that "he is gone down into sheol"; but in the case of Judas we are told that "he might go to his own place"—as though he has a special place set aside for his use. In the entire New Testament the term "son of perdition" is only used twice: one is found in John 17.12 which distinctly points to Judas, and the other is found in 2 Thessalonians 2.3 which alludes to Antichrist. If the first beast is Antichrist, the son of perdition, who else can be the second beast except Judas who also is called the son of perdition? In John 6 the Lord is recorded as calling Judas "a devil" (v.70). So then, who but Judas can rank among the trio of evil?

[Nottheworld]

This might help you overcome your error.
"Historicism stands in contrast to Preterism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preterism), Futurism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futurism_%28Christian_eschatology%29) and Idealism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism_%28Christian_eschatology%29)."
Which are the 4 contexts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicism_%28Christian_eschatology%29

"Historicism stands in contrast to Preterism (http://biblocality.com/wiki/Preterism), Futurism (http://biblocality.com/wiki/Futurism_%28Christian_eschatology%29) and Idealism (http://biblocality.com/wiki/Idealism_%28Christian_eschatology%29)"

Hence, historicism includes your view: amillennialism. I know preterism is not called historicism in some circles, but I throw it in anyway, because they treat the book of Revelation mostly fulfilled.

[Nottheworld]

The continuous historic view means that folks like myself understand that we should expect New Testament prophecy to be fulfilled in the very same manner in which we all understand that Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled. We join the ranks of those great men of the reformation. As we now find ourselves in Daniel's "time of the end" I do indeed believe that much of the prophecy of the New Testament, and Revelation, has been fulfilled.
I know everyone claims the Reformation for their own particular teaching, hence the Laodicean last church period of "differing opinions." We are not in Daniel's last seven yet. It commences when millions of overcomer believers are raptured according to readiness (Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10, 12.5). First rapture triggers it because Satan reacts, knowing His time is real short. It's due to the fact the Church has reached its pinnacle. No more can it attain till Christ returns in Person. Those first raptured are the advanced party.

[PeteWaldo]

I know everyone claims the Reformation for their own particular teaching, hence the Laodicean last church period of "differing opinions." We are not in Daniel's last seven yet. It commences when millions of overcomer believers are raptured according to readiness (Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10, 12.5). First rapture triggers it because Satan reacts, knowing His time is real short. It's due to the fact the Church has reached its pinnacle. No more can it attain till Christ returns in Person.

Why do you suppose the church never saw the pre-trib rapture doctrine before Darby's pen? If you believe it did check with RaptureReady.com and Thomas Ice Pre-trib Rapture Center sites and review the historical record of that doctrine in the church they present.
Nobody has bigger axes to grind than those folks do.

[PeteWaldo]

Pete, respond to my specific points above for Rev. 17.8.

Can you first answer the only question I asked of you, before that, at the end of the OP?

Where is the temple of God?

[PeteWaldo]

Pete, respond to my specific points above for Rev. 17.8.

Let's start with your premise. You wrote

"The Antichrist is described as a living person, not some memory of a dead person of some religion."

Show me where you draw that conclusion through the only 4 verses in scripture that contain the term.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].
1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

[Nottheworld]

What does the first beast of Rev 13 as a man have to do with a lion, bear and leopard?

"And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy" (Rev. 13.1)

13.1 “Ten horns” represent ten minor kings (17.12), while “seven heads” speak of seven supreme kings (17.10). Since the heads are bigger than the horns and the latter are on the heads, the seven heads and ten horns must stand for seven emperors and ten kings.

The “seven heads” indicate seven successive emperors, whereas the “ten horns” speak of ten contemporary kings. (Altogether, the ancient Roman Empire had thirteen Caesars, among whom five, at the time of John the Apostle, died violently. The term “fallen” (17.10) in the original bears in it the sense of a violent death. The sixth Caesar, Domitian, it should be recalled, was also slain. And the seventh one will likewise be killed. So that all seven Roman Emperors mentioned by God do not die peacefully. The ten horns are but subordinate kings to Rome.)

Antichrist is the beast as well as the seventh head. 12.3 reads: “Upon his heads seven diadems”; and the next chapter says: “On his horns ten diadems” (13.1). Antichrist in the days to come will arise from the revived Roman Empire so as to gain control over Europe. According to the historical narration the ten kings alluded to in 12.3 are not yet crowned, nor do they have authority. But after these ten kings are crowned and receive authority they will crown the beast. And thus Antichrist gains authority at that very time.

“Blasphemy”—Whatever exalts oneself and abases God is blasphemy (see Matt. 9.3, 26.65; John 5.18, 10.33; Mark 3.28; Rev. 16.21).

“Upon his heads names of blasphemy”—It means that these heads call themselves gods. History informs us that the first five Caesars in the Roman Empire demanded the people to worship them as gods.

"And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority" (Rev. 13.2).

13.2 “Leopard”—In order to understand this section we must read Daniel 2.31-33 and 7.3-8. By so doing we learn that (1) the lion is the golden head in Nebuchadnezzar’s image, (2) the bear is Medo- Persia—the breast of silver, (3) the leopard has a belly of brass and thus represents Greece, and (4) the fourth beast, terrible and powerful, which was diverse from the other beasts, has the legs of iron—which is the Roman Empire. Babylon is terrible in war, Medo-Persia is slow but savage, Greece is ferocious, and Rome is cruel.

The beast of 13.2 possesses all four bad characters. In fact, it is the composite of all the powers of the nations. The book of Revelation speaks of the Lord Jesus as the Lamb 28 times, and the beast it speaks of as the wild beast 36 times.

God will make use of the beast to judge the world (Jer. 5.6, Hosea 13.7, Hab. 1.8). The leopard has spots, thus signifying having sins (Jer. 13.23). Both the bear and the lion tore people apart (see 2 Kings 2.24 on how the bears tore up the 42 lads, read Daniel 6.22 on how God sealed the mouths of the lions against Daniel, and read 2 Tim. 4.17 on how God delivered Paul out of the lion’s mouth).

The beast we read about in 13.2 points to a kingdom because it has seven heads and ten horns. According to 17.9,10,12 a kingdom is no doubt meant. The lion, the bear and the leopard mentioned in Daniel 7 are all symbolic of kingdoms; and hence the fourth beast must also be a kingdom—that of the Roman Empire.

But the beast of 13.2 likewise refers to a person. The term “fallen” used in 17.8-11 means meeting violent death, and the one who still remained at the time of the Apostle John was Domitian; therefore the beast spoken of in 19.20 and 20.10 is no doubt a man with personality. God does not cast a kingdom into the lake of fire.

"And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live" (Rev. 13.3,14).

13.3,14 “As though it had been smitten unto death”—The image must be that of a man, for Antichrist is a human being. The dragon counterfeits God; the beast, Christ; and the false prophet, the Holy Spirit.

The false father also gives authority to the false son so that the latter may have the power to perform lying wonders (2 Thess. 2.9). The phrase “lying wonders” does not mean to convey the idea that these wonders are false; it simply means that the purpose of these wonders is to deceive people.

“His throne” (13.2)—This indicates that there must be a kingdom. No kingdom, then no throne. The dragon revives the Roman Empire and gives it to the false christ.

Note that 13.3 says this: “as though it had been smitten unto death”; and chapter 13 further comments on it by saying: “the stroke of the sword” (v.14). In connection with 17.7,8, it should be noted that John wrote this book of Revelation in approximately 96 A.D. Hence the word “was” must refer to the time before 96 A.D.; “is not”, to the time when John wrote this book; and “is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go into perdition”, to the time in the future. According to 17.9-11, “the five are fallen, the one is” (this latter one, at the time of John, was Domitian); “the other is not yet come” (one wonders if he is now already in the world, but only waiting to be manifested).

Judging by the words in verse 11, there are seven souls, seven bodies; yet eight live, for the eighth one is also one of the original seven. He must have died and is to be reanimated in the days to come. There will arise a most powerful person who will revive the Roman Empire and become the leader of a confederacy of ten kingdoms. He will be killed, but he will also be reanimated. Thus, the whole world will consider him as god. Actually, he is not resurrected in the real sense; he is only reanimated by the entering into his body of the soul of one of the former Emperors.

Many people do not believe in the resurrection of Christ, and yet they all shall believe in the reanimation of Antichrist.

"And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?" (Rev. 13.4)

13.4 Antichrist is so influential because the dragon is backing him. People worship the beast because they consider him superior both in personality and power.

"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months" (Rev. 13.5).

13.5 “Speaking great things”—that is, exalting one’s own self; “and blasphemies”—defying God. The “authority” given, as mentioned in this verse, is permitted by God and is of a restricted nature. The number “forty and two” is the multiplication of seven and six. Seven is a perfect number, but six is a satanic one. We notice that in Numbers there were 42 stations from the Exodus to Canaan; and in 2 Kings we note that the bears tore up 42 lads: in the Bible the number 42 stands for wandering and judgment. In reading 2 Thessalonians 2.9-11 we learn the reason God allows Satan to go on a rampage for 42 months. The word “lie” in verse 11 has a definite article before it in the original Greek. It should therefore properly be read as “the lie”, which may refer back to Genesis 3 where we read that Satan lied by saying “shall not surely” and “shall be as God” (vv.4,5).

"And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven" (Rev. 13.6).

13.6 The first thing the beast does is to blaspheme God, for the name of God includes all the personality, nature, and authority of God. The phrase “his tabernacle” points to heaven.

"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations" (Rev. 13.7).

13.7 “To make war with the saints”—These latter are the Christians who are kept behind and those Jews who are faithful to God. The influence of the beast is world wide, though his kingdom is limited to the revived Roman Empire.

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13.8).

13.8 This verse proves that there will yet be Christians on earth, for there will still be people whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life. It is by the power of God’s election that they are being kept from succumbing to temptation.

"If any man have an ear, let him hear" (Rev. 13.9).

13.9 “If any man hath an ear, let him hear”—In the time of chapters 2 and 3 the churches still hold their position as such, hence each time there is added the clause: “what the Spirit saith to the churches”; here, though, only some Christians still remain behind, and therefore the exhortation simply reads: “If any man hath an ear, let him hear.”

"He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints" (Rev. 13.10).

13.10 Christians cannot rise up, as the Crusaders did, to fight against their enemies. They can only practice patience. If they lose their patience they will lose their faith. Losing faith does not mean losing eternal life.

[Nottheworld]

Where is the temple of God?
It depends. Which verse are you referring to?

[Nottheworld]

Why do you suppose the church never saw the pre-trib rapture doctrine before Darby's pen? If you believe it did check with RaptureReady.com and Thomas Ice Pre-trib Rapture Center sites and review the historical record of that doctrine in the church they present. Nobody has bigger axes to grind than those folks do.
Clement of Rome 68 or 97 AD
In Clement's First Epistle to the Corinthians: "Let us take (for instance) Enoch...Noah...and the Lord saved by him the animals which, with one accord, entered into the ark. On account of his hospitality and godliness, Lot was saved out of Sodore when all the country round was punished by means of fire and brimstone, the Lord thus making it manifest that He does not forsake those that hope in Him."

Ephraem the Syrian (4th century AD) of the Byzantine Church wrote about the Lord's return as being imminent in his sermon "On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World." He stated, "All saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." Pseudo-Ephraem claims that his sermon was written by Ephraem of Nisibis (306 A.D.—373 A.D), considered to be the greatest figure in the history of the Syrian church."

The Shepherd of Hermas (95-150)
"You have escaped from the great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life serving the Lord blamelessly."

Victorinus (Well known by 270 and died in 303 A.D.)
His commentary notes in Revelation 6:14 indicate a pretrib reference: "'And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.' For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away. 'And every mountain and the islands removed from their places' intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid persecution."

Considering first rapture according to readiness is a deeper truth (Luke 21.36; Rev. 3.10, 12.5)-as proven (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Partial_rapture.htm)-you wouldn't expect a lot of early church fathers to get it. It is usually only understood and appreciated by spiritual Christians. The quotes posttribers use to argue the church fathers only taught posttrib rapture usually only deal with the fact of His return and the last trumpet resurrection. But in no way does this preclude their awareness of a first rapture of an advanced party of overcomer believers who keep the word of His patience, are prayerful and watchful. Since Matthew (24.42), Mark (13.32), Luke (21.36), Paul (1 Cor. 15.23) and John (Rev. 3.10, 6.9-11, 7.9, 11.15, 12.5, 14.1-5) all taught a first rapture according to readiness, should we not accept it?

[PeteWaldo]

It depends.

It does?


Which verse are you referring to?

How many temples of God are there?
I count the one that Jesus rebuilt in 3 days, just as He promised, composed of regenerate believers. The corporate body of Christ, as well as our own bodies serving as temples of the Holy Spirit.

What temple of God have you got in mind?

[Nottheworld]

Jesus will be in the Temple in Jerusalem when He reigns on Earth. During the millennial kingdom the New Jerusalem above can't come down all the way because the Temple still remains on earth, but after the 1000 years there is no need for a Temple, because God and the Lamb will be the temple in the center of the New City. By the way the Temple in the OT represents our spirit, soul and body as the Holy of Holies, the Holy Place and the Outer Court.

[PeteWaldo]

"Historicism stands in contrast to Preterism (http://biblocality.com/wiki/Preterism), Futurism (http://biblocality.com/wiki/Futurism_%28Christian_eschatology%29) and Idealism (http://biblocality.com/wiki/Idealism_%28Christian_eschatology%29)"
Hence, historicism includes your view: amillennialism. I know preterism is not called historicism in some circles, but I throw it in anyway,.....

But that is what blinded you to the original post.
I described a 20th century church split into basically 2 groups.
Partial preterists (like most Presbyterians, Roman Catholic and Orthodox who believe that virtually all of Revelation after chapter 3 was fulfilled in the first century)
And futurists such as yourself who believe that virtually none of it will be fulfilled until some future someday.
And that each must consider the other to be virtually 100% in error, yet each is as adamant as the other, that the other is in error.
Stunningly both must necessarily believe that it is an impossibility that Mohammed could be the false prophet of Revelation, because of the eschatology they hold.

Preposterously, my continuous historic view that places Islam and Mohammed right in the middle of end-time prophecy as the beast and the false prophet, using sound hermeneutic principles, has been lumped in with Roman Catholics of all people, who are taught that antichrist Muslims worship the same God as Christians. Indeed a religion that shares many parallels with Islam.


....... because they treat the book of Revelation mostly fulfilled.

[PeteWaldo]

Both censor the voices of others through murder, rather than through defense of their doctrines, and both have murdered millions as a result.

Whether the Papal murder of Jews and Christian reformers while teaching that non-Catholics are headed to hell (though some wishfully suggest that the most recent catechism would seem to contradict this Roman Church tradition).
When I was a kid the Roman Church taught that it was a mortal sin for a Roman Catholic to attend any other Christian church.

Just like the Islamic 1400 year slaughter of Christians and Jews, and the censorship of Bibles and Christian materials in Islamic countries, along with the destruction of synagogues and churches.
http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geutP1T5FK6RIBWdxXNyoA?p=nigeria+chu ch+burnings&y=Search&fr=yfp-t-501&fr2=sb-top&sao=1
____________________

Death penalty for apostasy

http://www.biblebelievers.com/chiniquy/cc50_ch67.html

"But the reader has the right to know something of the dangers through which it has pleased God to make me pass.

Rome is the same today as she was when she burned John Huss and Wishart, and when she caused 70,000 Protestants to be slaughtered in France, and 100,000 to be exterminated in Piedmont in Italy.

On the 31st of December, 1869, I forced the Rt. Rev. Bishop Foley, of Chicago, to swear before the civil court, at Kankakee, that the following sentence was an exact translation of the doctrine of the Church of Rome as taught today in all the Roman Catholic seminaries, colleges, and universities, through the "Summa Theologica" of Thomas Aquinas (vol. iv. p. 90). "Though heretics must not be tolerated because they deserve it, we must bear with them till, by a second admonition, they may be brought back to the faith of the church. But those who, after a second admonition, remain obstinate to their errors, must not only be excommunicated, but they must be delivered to the secular power to be exterminated."
http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=95169

It is on account of this law of the Church of Rome, which is today in full force, as it was promulgated for the first time, that not less than thirty public attempts have been made to kill me since my conversion."
.............................

Whether in Saudi Arabia today, the Christian beheading capital of the world, or the same over the last 1400 years.
The penalty for turning away from Islam is death.
Even in Canada (video): http://www.tangle.com/view_video?viewkey=88d267dba53d454cb1ed

Similar to the RCC, in Islam the traditional waiting period during which a person is allowed to "repent", and return to Islam, is 3 days in jail.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/apostasy.htm

________________________

Both believe we enter our faiths as infants

The Roman Church teaches that one becomes a Christian by having a Priest sprinkle "holy water" on one's head, though there is no confirmation of this in scripture.

Islam teaches that one is a Muslim at birth.
__________________

Lying for God

From 25 year late 19th century priest Charles Chiniquy quoting Roman doctrine:

"It is often more to the glory of God and the good of our neighbor to cover the faith than to confess it; for example, if concealed among heretics, you may accomplish a greater amount of good; or if, by declaring our religion, more of evil would follow - for example, great trouble, death, the hostility of a tyrant." (liguori, "Theologia Moralis, t. ii n. 14, p 117 Mechlin, 1845.)

This Roman church view of lying, as if for God's benefit, is the very same as the Mohammedan concept of "taqiyyah", or lying in the way of Allah - Islamic subterfuge:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya

That Roman view is exposed in God's Word:

Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Rom 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? 8 And not [rather], (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

But that would not be slanderous reporting of the Roman "church".
________________________

Prayers of the heathen.

The Word of God instructs in the matter of prayer:

1Thessalonians 5:17 Pray without ceasing.

This describes a relationship and constant communication with God through the Holy Spirit, not vain ritual.


Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Roman Catholicism is steeped in repetitive prayer, whether rosary, prayers ordered by a confessor, etc. etc..

For Mohammedans, the Hadith tells us that earlier Muslims were instructed to pray 50 times a day. Mohammed later reduced this to a more manageable 5 times per day after his alleged flight on a horse.

From "Infidel" Ali explains part of salat, "You say Praise be to Allah thirty-three times; God forgive me thirty-three times; Allah is great thirty-three times; and then, if you choose, you may also say Gratitude to Allah."
That's a total of 495 repetitions of just those first three prayers - every day - because Muslims are commanded to perform salat fives times a day.

Muslim prayer beads (http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?p=muslim+prayer+beads&fr=yfp-t-501-s&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8)

Rosary beads (http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=A9G_bDqCCVlKuRgBDryJzbkF?p=rosary+bead s&fr=yfp-t-501&ei=utf-8&x=wrt&y=Search)
______________________

Idol Worship

Exd 20:4 THOU SHALT NOT MAKE UNTO THEE any graven image, or ANY LIKENESS [OF ANY THING] THAT [IS] IN HEAVEN above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

Just as Roman Catholics surround themselves with likenesses of things in heaven, bow to them and kiss them, and Orthodox venerate their "icons" (brought into the church by Constantine's mother), so do the Mohammedans bow 5 times a day to a black rock that resides in Mecca. They are required to go and prance around it for days at least once in their lives, some kissing and rubbing on it.

Both, of course, deny idolatry.
___________________

Veneration of Mary

Mohammedans join with Roman Catholics in the veneration of Mary. Though blessed among other women...]]]

Luk 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed [art] thou among women, and blessed [is] the fruit of thy womb.

[[[... did Jesus suggest we venerate Mary?

John 2:3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. 4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. 5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do [it].

No Roman Catholic would deny this 19th century Roman dogma or risk being subjected to the fires of hell.

"ASSUMPTION -- At the end of her life, Mary was taken up ("assumed") body and soul into Heaven. ("Catechism" 966, 974)

There is no biblical reference to the assumption of Mary. The Gospel of John was written around 90 A.D., which is more than 100 years after Mary was born. (Surely Mary was more than ten years old when Jesus was conceived.) If Mary had been supernaturally assumed into Heaven, wouldn't John (the disciple that Mary lived with) have mentioned it? When Enoch and Elijah were taken up to Heaven, the Bible recorded it. With Elijah it was recorded in some detail. (See Genesis 6:24 and 2 Kings 2:1-18.)

The Assumption of Mary was officially declared to be a dogma of the Roman Catholic faith in 1950. This means that every Roman Catholic is required to believe this doctrine without questioning it. However, as we will see, the teaching of the Assumption originated with heretical writings which were officially condemned by the early Church.

In 495 A.D., Pope Gelasius issued a decree which rejected this teaching as heresy and its proponents as heretics. In the sixth century, Pope Hormisdas also condemned as heretics those authors who taught the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary. The early Church clearly considered the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary to be a heresy worthy of condemnation. Here we have "infallible" popes declaring something to be a heresy. Then in 1950, Pope Pius XII, another "infallible" pope, declared it to be official Roman Catholic doctrine. (Note 15)"

Mohammed most likely got Mohammedan veneration of Mary during some of his consultations with a defrocked Roman Catholic priest. A whole chapter in the Quran is devoted to Mary, the only woman named in the Quran (http://74.6.239.67/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=muslims+veneration+of+mary&fr=yfp-t-501&u=en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariology&w=muslims+muslim+veneration+mary+maries&d=JU-WRBlMS88V&icp=1&.intl=us), though Mohammed's confusion was off by generations.

19 MARYAM (MARY)

Both Roman Catholics and Muslims worship Mary at Fatima.

http://www.buddhistview.com/site/epage/18341_225.htm
http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/spirituality/mary-worship.htm
http://www.spiritdaily.org/fatimacontroversy2.htm
_________________________

Conquest through population.

The Roman church and Mohammedanism are united on this point as well.

The Pope populating with Roman Catholics through deprivation of birth control.
Another device is through questions asked of married women during auricular confession.
___________________

Governance and rule of all mankind

The Roman church seeks to rule all mankind with the church. This explains the dark history of Romanism which includes the murder of millions of Jews, Muslims and Christians. Their doctrine regarding control of all mankind remains unaltered.

The freedom and right to self-determination guaranteed under the U.S. constitution are the very antithesis of the Roman church, just as freedom is the enemy of Islam. The Pope voiced support for the South during the civil war in order to cause Roman Catholic soldiers in the northern army to defect. Maximizing non Roman Catholic casualties being a goal.
The pope calling for a new world order (http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=pope+supports+new+world+order&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8) wherein the Roman Church would presumably be the arbiter of right and wrong.

Islam, of course, has lusted after the kingdoms of the world for 1400 years. Whether the First and Second Islamic Jihads, or Ahmadinejad - "Do not doubt Allah will prevail, and Islam will conquer mountaintops of the entire world.”
______________________

Both are religions of salvation through works

Both are religions of works, that teach that we earn our own way to heaven through our own good deeds, rather than salvation being a gift of God.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

This rather than understanding that good deeds and works are the RESULT of salvation, NEVER the path to it:

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Works are the RESULT of salvation, NOT the path to it.
________________________

Those in bondage to the Roman church please read "50 Years in the 'Church' of Rome by Charles Chiniquy - a Roman Catholic priest for 25 years.
http://www.biblebelievers.com/chiniquy/index.html

The scarlet beast may represent Satan's kingdom, and harlots the false church of men teaching their own precepts throughout history, with the RCC as the mother: http://www.biblebelievers.com/chiniquy/cc50_ch53.html

Revelation 17:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=17&v=1&t=KJV#top) So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints (http://www.biblebelievers.com/foxes/fox104.htm), and with the blood of the martyrs (http://www.homecomers.org/mirror/martyrs036.htm) of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

[PeteWaldo]

http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_ec21na.htm

"Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions
The Second Vatican Council
Promulgated by His Holiness Pope Paul VI (http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=78.0)
October 28, 1965

Paul, Bishop, Servant of the Servants of God, together with the Fathers of the Sacred Council. For Everlasting Memory."

The Roman church confirms Islam.

The Pope supports Islam, so devout Roman Catholics are compelled to.

"3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men;......"

Indeed God has, so let's hear Him:

Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is MY BELOVED SON , in whom I am well pleased.
Mark 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, [saying], Thou art MY BELOVED SON, in whom I am well pleased.
Luke 3:22 ...and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art MY BELOVED SON; in thee I am well pleased.
2Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is MY BELOVED SON, in whom I am well pleased.

"........ they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees,......"

Surah 9.30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. [/b]. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father:...

"..... just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God."

Mohammedans are unwittingly submitted to Satan. The only anti-another-religion, religion, by design. Mohammed's "revelations" co-authored by a jealous fallen angel and his self-serving false prophet Mohammed.
But there are some of us that Mohammed didn't fool:

Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.

Indeed even Mohammed believed it was a jinn (a demon) that met him in that cave.
Coptic priest Zakaria Botrous on this subject.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpsWnbApBNw

"Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God,....."

And they deny the crucifixion and resurrection, and they deny that Jesus is the Son of God, but perhaps it's just trifling in minor details, to point out that their religion is specifically built on denying the very elements that Christianity IS.

The greatest, and only unpardonable, sin in this satanic religion (shirk) being committed, if a Muslim confesses that Jesus is the Son of God.

2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

What the pope has done is help the Muslims down their path of death.

1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] HE THAT HATH NOT THE SON OF GOD HATH NOT LIFE.

"...... they revere Him as a prophet."

They blaspheme the very blood that would save them:

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Surah 4:157 That THEY SAID (in boast), "WE KILLED CHRIST JESUS the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- BUT THEY KILLED HIM NOT, NOR CRUCIFIED HIM, but so it was made to appear to them,... FOR OF A SURETY THEY KILLED HIM NOT:-

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

"They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion."

Mohammedans join with Roman Catholics in the veneration of Mary even collecting together at Fatima.
Likely from Mohammed's consultations with a defrocked priest, or from his "christian" consultant Jabr.

"In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead."

And what will be the reward for those who follow the false prophet Mohammed, in part, thanks to the Pope's encouragement?

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where THE BEAST and THE FALSE PROPHET [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

"Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer,...."

The prayers of the heathen:

Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

"..... almsgiving and fasting."

Skipping lunch for a month.

"Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems,....."

This is false. The hostilities were between the Roman church and Moslems.
Here is how we know it wasn't between Christians and Moslems:

Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, LOVE YOUR ENEMIES, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment. 31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

John 13:35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

The Crusades, inquisitions and persecution of reformers, of the Roman Church murder of Jews, Muslims AND CHRISTIANS, were little different than the 1400 year murder, rape, pillage and plunder of Islamic jihad. No surprise that Roman style Christianity looks little different than Islam to a Moslem.

"...... this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding....."

Certainly it's no surprise that the Roman church would like the world to forget the past:
http://www.biblebelievers.com/foxes/findex.htm
http://www.homecomers.org/mirror/
But that would be akin to holocaust denial.
Mutual understanding in regard to our respective beliefs is impossible for a Christian, as Mohammed WAS and taught, the EXACT OPPOSITE of Jesus and the Word of God.

"...... and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom."

Sure. Social justice like sharia law: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fbXvq_ZIbw
And honoring women: http://www.beholdthebeast.com/women_in_islam.htm

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Sura 2:223 your wives are as tilth (farmland) unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will...

Sura (4:34) - Men are the maintainers of women ... admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and BEAT THEM; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/27168100.jpg

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Sura 112:1-3: Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; 2 Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; 3 He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;

[PeteWaldo]

Passing up an historic opportunity to label Islam the Evil Empire and begin to save those poor folks through public debate (like Ronnie Reagan did the Soviet Union), the pope instead chose to kiss the very book that curses the Christians and Jews, for believing in the only begotten Son of God.

Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

The very book that denies that Jesus even died on the Cross, let alone to save us.

http://www.bible.ca/catholic-pope-kissing-koran.jpg

Surah 4.157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

The god of Islam - allah - even curses Christians and Jews:

Surah 9.30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the Son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (In this) they but imitate what the Unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

It would seem the pope took the coward's way out, and sold out Jesus, to avoid persecution.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

[PeteWaldo]

Moved to eschatology

[PeteWaldo]

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Thus it is necessary to understand it in the context of the times during which John was writing, looking through his eyes, when we read the following verses, and indeed when considering the entirety of his vision if we are to uniformly apply this ethnographic hermeneutic (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_beast.htm#world):

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Considering John's assignment we can see that the 6th king or the one that "is" in power as John wrote, was the Roman Empire. Just as John prophesied the Roman Empire was conquered by the 7th beast that had "not yet come" (by the Islamic First Jihad).

The Islamic Empire lost it's power - but not it's seat - after the First Jihad was mortally wounded in the Battle of Tours, and the two horned beast later "exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him", or in the presence of, the Islamic beast. The Islamic Empire lost it's power but maintained it's seat in the area. The transfer of Western wealth through arms sales and oil purchase, eventually healed the mortal wound that the Islamic beast suffered in the Battle of Poitiers at the hand of Charles Martel, financing the Second Jihad in the image of the First Jihad.
The book "Infidel" offers a personal late 20th century Somali woman's view of the healing of this Islamic beast, as a direct result of Western financing of Islam via Saudi Arabia and the Islamic Brotherhood (http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geu9oeaZJH0yIBoSlXNyoA?p=muslim+brot herhood+radical&fr=yfp-t-501&ei=UTF-8).

It may be more constructive to recognize these seven "kings" in terms of the successive empire or kingdom reigns, since the kingdoms spanned periods longer than individual leaders, and particularly in light of the very next verse where we are brought back to our term "beast", which Daniel has already defined for us.
(Strongs - kings - New Testament Greek Definition: 935 basileus {bas-il-yooce'} probably from 939 (through the notion of a foundation of power)

Revelation 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

In this verse we find an 8th beast that "was" - before John - but "is not". So the 8th beast isn't about the Roman Empire either, but it is "of the seven". Considering the identity of the leopard-bear-lion beast, today seated in Syria, Iran and Iraq, we find that it fits as having been "was", and also as having been "of the seven" (perhaps particularly of the seventh), but is not the "is" "beast" or kingdom, of John's day - the Roman Empire.

"….. it is said, five of the seven Kings are fallen, and one is, and another is not yet come; and the Beast that was and is not, being wounded to death with a sword, he is the eighth, and of the seven: he was therefore a collateral part of the seventh." - Isaac Newton

Regarding "...and goeth into perdition.", or destruction here are a couple of applicable verses which may be relatively close together in timing:

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/index.htm#islam_666), and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The 7th and 8th "beasts"/kings are Islamic first and second jihad - the LBL beast's 7th head - Satan's final kingdom. Satan's power manifest in Islamic Jihad. We learned above that Satan gave the Islamic beast his power, seat and authority. The Jihadists hold ultimate power even over the whole non-middle east world through oil.

All Muslims are Jihadists though the term is interpreted loosely by liberals (who are apostates as far as fundamentalists are concerned), and understood in the Quran, by fundamentalists (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/). Their prophet was their model for Jihad rape, pillage and plunder and sexual enslavement that is still practiced around the world today (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/). Clearly those in the Middle East - the Arabic speaking followers in cradle of Islam - best understand and follow this religion, not the wishful reinterpreters, or Mecca styled fakers, in the West.

"U.S. mosques (http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/muslimlife/demograp.htm) that feel the Koran should be interpreted with consideration of its purposes and modern circumstances: 71 percent". There are, however, specific suras in the Koran that prohibit this.
Perhaps these wishful Westerners are akin to the apostates in the ECUSA, who wished that the bible said something other than it does (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Ti/1Ti003.html#top).

The mortal wound (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#daniel_1335 _days) and death knell of the first Jihad - the Battle of Tours - was pinned by Daniel's "1335 days (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#daniel_1335 _days)".
The Battle of Tours (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/732tours.html) was the turning point (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours), marking the zenith of the Islamic onslaught of the First Jihad, delivering the mortal wound to the spearhead of the invading forces, and killing the literal head of the advancing army Emir Abd er Rahman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd_er_Rahman). "Without his leadership and guidance, the other commanders were unable to even agree on a commander to lead them back into battle the following morning. The effect of the death of Abdul Rahman on both Islamic and world history was profound."

"Both western and eastern historians agree that had Abdul Rahman prevailed at Tours, he would probably have conquered all of Christian Europe, Martel and his Frankish Army being all that stood between Islam and Rome itself, [5] and all history would have been far different. 'There were no further Muslim invasions of Frankish territory, and Charles's victory has often been regarded as decisive for world history, since it preserved western Europe from Muslim conquest and Islamization.'"[6 (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9060566/Battle-of-Tours)]

Since we understand that the dragon - Satan - gave his seat and power to the Islamic beast (LBL above), this 8th beast is then Satan's final power play exercising his earthly power and seat (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_beast.htm#lbl) and authority over his kingdoms. The same kingdoms that he offered Jesus (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat004.html#8).

These eight successive kingdom "beasts" are thus:
(There is broad consensus (http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=egypt+assyria+babylon+medo+persia+greece+ and+rome&fr=yfp-t-501-s&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8) regarding the first six of these eight kingdom beasts.)

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/23ea3af0.jpg

Though somewhat out of the consensus that first kingdom might more properly be understood to be Israel as these are successive kingdoms that ruled the Holy Land.

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/218a3ac0.jpg

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/216a3a30.jpg

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/214a3a60.jpg

[PeteWaldo]

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/238a3a60.jpg

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/24fa3d30.jpg

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/20fa3ae0.jpg

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/1f5a3aa0.png

Above is the succession of kingdoms that controlled the Holy Land as a matter of historical record.

[PeteWaldo]

Blessedly there is a broad consensus among Jewish, as well as Christian scholars, futurist, preterist and orthodox, regarding the identity of Daniel's four beasts.

In Daniel's chapter 7 dream we find: Daniel 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

Daniel 7:4 The first [was] like a lion, and had eagle's wings...
Daniel 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear...
Daniel 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard...
Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly...

In the verse below we learn that in the figurative language of a vision or dream in prophecy, a "beast" is a kingdom or empire.

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

BEAST = KINGDOM

The broad consensus (http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=babylon+medo+persia+greece+and+rome&fr=yfp-t-501-s&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8) holds that the kingdoms represented by Daniel's lion, bear and leopard, are the successive ancient kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece (http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=babylon+medo+persia+greece+and+rome&fr=yfp-t-501-s&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8), followed by the fourth "terrible" beast, that is understood to be the Roman Empire.

This conclusion is reached within the traditional continuous-historic context (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/traditional_framework.htm) of prophecy. This is simply the view that bible prophecy is fulfilled steadily, as the era about which it is written gradually unfolds. This is the context in which virtually all Christians and Jews understand Old Testament prophecy.

Below are maps of these successive kingdoms.

Daniel 7:4 The first [was] like a lion, and had eagle's wings...
lion - Babylon

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/216a3a30.jpg

Daniel 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear...
bear - Medo-Persia

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/214a3a60.jpg

Daniel 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard...
leopard - Greece

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/214a3a60.jpg

Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly...
fourth "dreadful" - The Roman Empire

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/24fa3d30.jpg

[PeteWaldo]

Daniel's lion, bear and leopard kingdom "beasts" discussed in Daniel's prophecy (http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=11.0), reappear together in scripture only one more time - in Revelation Chapter 13 - but combined into a composite "beast" - kingdom.

Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. (Daniel's beast is "his")
(The Greek interlinear below helps us understand who it is that gives what to whom.)

This beast was to continue 42 prophetic "months". The seats of the ancient successive kingdom beasts of lion, bear and leopard that Daniel prophesied are occupied today by the countries of Iraq, Iran, and Syria/Lebanon. The dragon in the verse above is Satan.

While these countries and sects of Islam may have differences, and some with national sovereignty, they are united spiritually through following the false prophet Mohammed, and by their holy book the Quran. As a result they are filled with the spirit of antichrist because their belief that God has no Son, or "shirk", is the most important element in Islam.

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/077f42d0.png

Bible prophecy is ethnographic and therefore is largely about the Middle East. Terms like "whole world" are likely not about Peoria Illinois. "that deceiveth the whole world" - Strong's explains: 3625 oikoumene {oy-kou-men'-ay} 1) the inhabited earth 1a) the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in distinction from the lands of the barbarians 1b) the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire

The sketch map above is an illustration of the seat of the Islamic Empire "beast", and the countries that compose that seat today. But the Lord's interest isn't likely to lie in the artificial boundaries of men, but rather in the spiritual condition of mankind. The spirit of antichrist, in this case. Each of Daniel's successive kingdoms conquered the whole known world (Middle East area and the Holy Land) in its turn.

In the prior post are maps of the succession of kingdoms that Daniel wrote of, that ruled the Middle East.
There is broad consensus on the identity of these beasts. As per the prior post, and Daniel defines a beast as a kingdom when used in the figurative language of a dream or vision in prophecy.

Below is a map of the composite leopard-bear-lion "beast" (kingdom) and the spiritual condition of the Middle East today.

Leopard-Bear-Lion - Islamic Empire

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/1f5a3aa0.png

While some Muslims may be unaware that other Muslims mark the Quran and Mohammed with the number 666, former PLO terrorist Walid Shoebat also said that the moment he saw the GREEK symbol for 666, he read it as the ARABIC symbol for "Bismillah", or "in the name of Allah". There are ISLAMIC web sites that discuss how the number 666 demonstrates the perfection of the Quran, and that the Quran "is the 666". This number association of 666 was prophesied in Scripture 500 years before Mohammed was born.
http://www.66619.org/thequran.htm

Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six.

On this link (http://www.muslimjourneytohope.com/watch.asp) are videos of Muslims who have come to know the love of God.

[PeteWaldo]

DAY YEAR LANGUAGE OF PROPHECY

Within this traditional continuous historic (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/traditional_framework.htm) context of study we also find a "language" of prophecy wherein we consider "each day for a year (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#each_day)". We learn that this day-year principle was well known prior to the 20th century, when we look to those of the "former age" and "search of their fathers (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#day_year)", as the Bible instructs.

The following is a summary of seven more of the math problems explored in "The False Prophet (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_false_prophet.htm)" (available absolutely free by simply clicking on the link), that uniformly apply this day = year "language" of prophecy. Much better to start the book at the beginning (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/contents_tfp.htm), rather than explore the math out of context, because "The False Prophet" is a brick by brick empirical argument.


Let's start this section with a problem involving 1260 "days" in prophecy, from John's vision detailed in Revelation:
Here is a link to a godtube video of this problem.

3. Revelation 12:6 (KJV): And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.

Most agree that Israel, is the "woman" in the context of this verse. If we then consider that the end of the 1260 "days" was when Israel came out of "the wilderness" (of the people Ezekiel 20:35 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Eze/Eze020.html#35)), or out from being scattered among the nations, returning home and declaring her independence in 1948, and subtract 1260 years ("each day for a year (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#day_year)"), we arrive at 688 AD.

A quick Yahoo search (http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=dome+of+the+rock+688&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8) reveals that this is widely understood to be the founding year of the construction of the Islamic mosque, the Dome of the Rock.

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/16ca4190.jpg

The founding verses of the Dome of the Rock "O you People of the Book, overstep not bounds in your religion, and of Allah speak only the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, is only an apostle of Allah, and his Word which he conveyed unto Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from him. Believe therefore in Allah and his apostles, and say not Three. It will be better for you. Allah is only one Allah. Far be it from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son."

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

The blasphemous founding verses are written in the mosaic on the Dome of the Rock both inside and out. Over the nearly 1400 years of Islamization of the Middle East, the Holy Land became spiritually desolated by the exile of Christians and Jews. Today Iran is 99% Muslim (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_beast.htm#percent_islam), with Iraq at 98% and Syria at 90%, while Saudi Arabia is 100% and Turkey 99% Muslim. Below is a map of this spiritual condition.

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/1f5a3aa0.png

By the 1800's Israel was rendered a desolate, barren, relatively abandoned, wasteland.

Continuing our study it will become increasingly apparent that the Dome of the Rock is God's symbol for Islam in prophecy, and that Islam is the subject of Daniel's "time of the end", and the "end of the world".

The language of prophecy wherein we calculate "each day for a year" was well known by Matthew Henry (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#day_year), Thieleman J. van Braght, and Jamison, Faucett & Brown, to mention just a few. One example of a source verse is:

Ezekiel 4:6: And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

[PeteWaldo]

Next let's try a verse that involves 42 "months" in prophecy.
There are 365.24 days in our modern solar year, or John's 1st century Julian (365.25) year, divided by 12 months = 30.44 average days in a month:

4. Revelation 11:2: But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.

The city of Jerusalem was under the foot of, or controlled by, Gentiles until the Israelis took back the holy city in 1967. 42 months x 30.44 days = 1278.5 days (as years). Subtracting this from 1967 we arrive at 688.5. Once again, the founding year of the Dome of the Rock.

It wasn't until after the events and the years of 1948 and 1967 had come to pass that we could understand the textual and mathematical solutions to these two simple problems (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Ch/2Ch003.html#1).

Further study of the above verse may well demonstrate God's wonderfully wry sense of humor. The Solomonic Temple was built over the threshingfloor (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Ch/2Ch003.html#1) of Ornan the Jebusite, and on that bedrock the Arc of the Covenant, or Holy or Holies, was kept. It is obvious that the stone pictured below, in the Dome of the Rock, could hardly have served as a threshing floor, because both threshing and recovery of grain would have been beyond reason, particularly when there was a perfectly suited smooth flat rock just 300 feet away.

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/16b97570.jpg

Today the little gazebo (http://www.raptureme.com/photo/holy_land/Jerusalem_Temple_Mount/120.jpg) aptly named the "Dome of the Tablets", or "Dome of the Spirits", covers the smooth flat former threshing floor of the old Temple site (http://www.bibleplaces.com/templemount.htm). (Circled in Temple Mount photo at this link (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/1290_days.htm#photo_1))

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/0f12c8c0.png

The old Eastern Gate (http://www.excel.net/%7Ehoy/east-tab.html) lines up perfectly with the little "Dome of the Tablets".
The Solomonic Temple "Court of the Gentiles (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_wrong_rock.htm#graph_6)", where even unwashed slaves were allowed, is likely where the Dome of the Rock was constructed.

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/10126820.gif

Photo from: http://www.excel.net/~hoy/east-tab.html (http://www.excel.net/%7Ehoy/east-tab.html)

It would seem that the Dome of the Rock was built in the court that was outside of the Solomonic temple, that the Lord gave to the Gentiles. In other words, the Moslems built the Dome of the Rock - over the wrong rock! Does God have a wonderfully wry sense of humor?



How about another 42 "months" problem from John in Revelation, prefaced with a related verse:

Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his [Daniel's beast is "his"] feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

7. Revelation 13:5: And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/antichrist.htm#antichrist_islam) and blasphemies (http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=quran+%22god+has+no+son%22&prssweb=Search&ei=UTF-8&fr=FP-tab-web-t400&x=wrt); and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.

Again using the average of 30.44 days in a month, multiplied by 42 months = 1278.5 days (as years). Subtracting this from 1967 we arrive again at 688.5. The founding year of the Dome of the Rock.

The political and religious control (through jizya - that is - humiliation taxes (http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oGkkBOI7ZFtbQAD.lXNyoA?p=jizya+humil iation+tax&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-501&x=wrt) of the enslaved, etc.) of the Islamic LBL beast (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/leopard_bear_lion.htm), of Revelation 13 "continued" in Jerusalem until the Israelis retook the Holy City in 1967 - Islam being marked symbolically by the founding year of the Dome of the Rock.

Daniel defined what a beast is, when the figurative language of a dream or vision is used in Scripture, and he did it in the context of the lion, bear, leopard and fourth "terrible" beast: Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth,...
And so we learn that in the figurative language of a dream or vision in prophecy, beast = kingdom.

Islamic conquest resulted in the exile of Jews and Christians from the Holy Land, and subsequent spiritual desolation (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/matthew_24_olivet_discourse.htm#spiritual_desolati on) of the region. By the 1800's it was a physically desolated, deserted wasteland.
In "A History of the Jews" page 321 Paul Johnson writes: "Between 1827 and 1839, largely through British efforts, the population of Jerusalem rose from 550 to 5,500 and in all Palestine it topped 10,000 - the real beginning of the Jewish return to the Promised Land. In 1838 Palmerston appointed the first western vice-consul in Jerusalem, W.T. Young, and told him 'to afford protection to the Jews generally'."

We can see from Revelation 13:2 above, that the dragon, Satan, gives the beast the power that is mentioned in Revelation 13:5, that is manifest in Islamic control of this empire. See illustration (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/leopard_bear_lion.htm#graph_16)

Daniel's successive kingdom beasts of lion, bear and leopard, which Bible scholars recognize as Babylon, Medo-Persia, and ancient Greece, form the composite leopard-bear-lion (http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=12.0) - beast / kingdom - we find in Revelation 13. This same geographical region (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/leopard_bear_lion.htm#117) is today occupied by Iraq, Iran, and Syria/Lebanon (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/leopard_bear_lion.htm#117). While some Islamic sects have national autonomy, and different sects of Islam are at war against each other, they are all perfectly united behind their false prophet Mohammed, and united in the spirit of antichrist (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/antichrist.htm). These modern day realities perfectly compliment this sound hermeneutic, textual and mathematical study.

The prophetic pin date of 688 and the symbol of the end times - the Dome of the Rock (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/antichrist.htm#antichrist_islam) - the abomination of desolation (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/antichrist.htm#antichrist_islam) - also fits all of the definitions of terms used to describe this abomination, since it was "set up (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#daniel_1290 _days)", and "stands (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/matthew_24_olivet_discourse.htm#matthew_24_15)", "where it ought not (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/matthew_24_olivet_discourse.htm#mark_13_14)", "in (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/matthew_24_olivet_discourse.htm#in)" the "holy place (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/matthew_24_olivet_discourse.htm#matthew_24_15)", as Matthew 24 confirms (http://www.beholdthebeast.com/matthew_24_olivet_discourse.htm), in conjunction with that passage in Mark and Luke, as well as Daniel, where Matthew and Mark instruct us to "understand" the concept from.

Eventually Western wealth transfer to the Middle East through oil purchase would heal the wound (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev013.html#12) of the leopard-bear-lion beast (http://brotherpete.com/index.php?topic=12.0), financing the second Jihad in the image (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev013.html#14) of the first Jihad. Jihad is the pinnacle of worship in Islam. This image worship may also include the Black Stone in the Kaaba, that at one time housed over 360 idols, that all Muslims bow toward, in their daily prayers, from everywhere in the world.

[PeteWaldo]

The following threads are intended simply to present the first little peak into another entire context through which to consider New Testament prophecy and particularly the book of Revelation. Unlike futurism or preterism this view suggests that the book of Revelation has been being steadily fulfilled throughout the Christian era. The same view that virtually all Christians and Jews hold for the Old Testament as in the case of Daniel's kingdom "beasts" for example.
When we look to those of the former age we find the day-year language of prophecy was well understood:

Job 8:8 For enquire, I pray thee, of the former age, and prepare thyself to the search of their fathers: 9 (For we [are but of] yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth [are] a shadow:)

Quoting from "The False Prophet": "In 1569, the great Anabaptist theologian, Thieleman van Braght, wrote the following in Martyrs Mirror, pages 21-24: 'a thousand two hundred and threescore days, which reckoned according to prophetic language means as many years… let it be reckoned as it may, say we, as a very long period of time.'

Two hundred years later, Matthew Henry, in his 'Commentary of the Whole Bible', came to the same conclusion (Vol VI, page 1157 column 1, para. 2): "….if the beginning of that interval could be ascertained, this number of prophetic days, taking a day for a year, would give us a prospect of when the end might be."

Isaac Newton - "She is nourished by the merchants of the earth, three times or years and an half, or 42 months, or 1260 days: and in these Prophecies days are put for years." - Observations Upon the Prophecies of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of St.a John - Chapter 3

Also Jamison, Faucett & Brown commentary - "..... in the wilderness 'a thousand two hundred and threescore days.' In the wider sense, we may either adopt the year-day theory of 1260 years..."

The source of this language can be found in these key verses:

Ezekiel 4:5 For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.

Ezekiel 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

Numbers 14:34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, [even] forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, [even] forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

Genesis 29:27 Fulfil her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years.

Additionally Exodus alludes to a week of days as years:

Exodus 23:10 And six years thou shalt sow thy land, and shalt gather in the fruits thereof:
Exodus 23:11 But the seventh [year] thou shalt let it rest and lie still; that the poor of thy people may eat: and what they leave the beasts of the field shall eat. In like manner thou shalt deal with thy vineyard, [and] with thy oliveyard.

Other examples of those who understood this language include:

Augustine (AD 430)
Nahawendi (Jewish) (AD 8-9th century)
Jehoram (AD 10th century)
Abraham bar Hiyya (Jewish) (AD 1136)
Arnold of Villanova AD (1292)
Tichonius (AD 380)
Joachim of Floris (AD 1202)
John Wycliffe (AD c.1379)
Nicholas of Cusa (AD c.1452)
Martin Luther (AD 1522)
Phillip Melanchthon (AD 1543)
Johan Funck (AD 1558)
James I of England (AD 1600)
Sir Isaac Newton (AD 1727)

It is important to note that the studies I entered in this forum discuss FULFILLED prophecy, pinned mathematically.

"The folly of interpreters has been to foretell times and things by this prophecy [Revelation], as if God designed to make them prophets. By this rashness they have not only exposed themselves, but brought the prophecy also into contempt. The design of God was much otherwise. He gave this and the prophecies of the Old Testament, not to gratify men's curiosities by enabling them to foreknow things, but that after they were fulfilled they might be interpreted by the event, and his own providence, not the interpreters', be then manifested thereby to the world. For the event of things predicted many ages before will then be a convincing argument that the world is governed by Providence." - Sir Isaac Newton

We should consider the warning that Jesus gave to the Pharisees, and never allow our doctrine to trump the truth of God's Holy Word:

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

[Nottheworld]

The Year-Day Theory



Recently the study of prophecy had earned for itself a bad reputation among believers because of the so-called year-day theory. According to this theory, many numbers of days in the Scriptures are computed as though a day were a year [even Isaac Newton (http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2265#post2265) made this mistake with all kinds of calculations], thus fostering predictions as to the precise date for the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ—an exercise of the mind which is plainly contradictory to the Lord’s announcement: for no one knows the date of His return, not even Jesus himself. Then, too, some commentators on Revelation have twisted God’s word in ways that are meant to fit in with this year-day theory. We have no intention to argue about this theory; we only desire to point out a right understanding of the “days” that are mentioned in the Bible.


The advocates of the year-day theory base their conception on Numbers 14.34 and Ezekiel 4.6. Let us first examine Numbers: "After the number of the days in which ye spied out the land, even forty days, for every day a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my alienation." Here we are told that due to their unbelief, the children of Israel were disciplined by God for forty years, a year for every day they had spied out the land. But this does not apply equally to other "days" mentioned in Scripture, and certainly not to the "days" found in Revelation. As to Ezekiel: "And again, when thou hast accomplished these, thou shalt lie on thy right side, and shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah: forty days, each day for a year, have I appointed it unto thee." Here we see that God commanded Ezekiel to lie down in a certain position as a response to the iniquity of Judah. This has nothing to do with the other "days" found in the Bible.

Let us look at a few more passages.

(1) "And yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights" (Gen. 7.4). Did God wait for seven years and then have the rain fall for forty years? No, for the record goes on to explain as follows: "And it came to pass after the seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth. . . . And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights" (vv.10,12). Here, a day is not a year.

(2) "Joseph said unto him, This is the interpretation of it: the three branches are three days; within yet three days shall Pharaoh lift up thy head" (Gen. 40.12,13). Was it that after three years the chief butler was released from prison? Not at all: "And it came to pass the third day . . . [that] he restored the chief butler unto his butlership again" (vv.20,21).

(3) "Then said Jehovah unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a day’s portion every day . . . And it shall come to pass on the sixth day . . . [that] it shall be twice as much as they gather daily" (Ex. 16.4,5). The children of Israel went out to gather manna every day, not once a year.

(4) God gave meat to the children of Israel to eat for "a whole month" (Num. 11.19, 20). They did not eat meat for thirty years.

(5) "Within three days ye are to cross this Jordan" (Joshua 1.11). What actually happened afterwards? Did the children of Israel cross over Jordan after three years? No, they crossed after three days.

(6) "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Matt. 12.40). Was the Lord Jesus in the heart of the earth for three years? We know from the biblical record that He was there for only three days and three nights.

From this evidence, therefore, we can easily conclude that the year-day theory is erroneous. If some of the "days" appearing in the book of Revelation are to be taken as years, then the rest of the "days" found therein should also be treated as years. And in that case, the three and a half years of the Great Tribulation would have to be calculated as a thousand two hundred and sixty years; and the millennial kingdom would have to be extended out to three hundred and sixty thousand years. Obviously, we know that such calculations as these cannot be true.

May we therefore trust the Holy Spirit to guide us correctly as we read the word of God. Let us not seize upon strange ideas like this. Even though the Bible is most wonderful, it is not to be explained in any quaint or bizarre way. We ought to learn to be more obedient to God in our thought. And then we will not be likely to misinterpret His word.

[Nottheworld]

The One Thousand Two Hundred and Sixty Days


Let us examine the last prophecy of Daniel as recorded in chapters 10-12. By carefully examining these chapters we shall see how his last prophecy fits in with his earlier prophecies. I cannot stay to explain it in detail, so let us merely touch upon it briefly.

"And forces shall stand on his part, and they shall profane the sanctuary, even the fortress, and shall take away the continual burnt-offering, and they shall set up the abomination that maketh desolate" (Dan. 11.31). How this coincides indeed with chapter 9. "I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half, and when they have made an end of breaking in pieces the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. . . . And from the time that the continual burnt-offering shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But go thou thy way till the end be; for thou shalt rest, and shall stand in thy lot, at the end of the days" (12.7,11-13). Here we see again the three and a half years’ time. One thousand two hundred and ninety days is thirty days more than three and a half years, and a thousand three hundred and thirty-five days is forty-five days more than one thousand two hundred and ninety days. As the three years and a half (1260 days) come to an end, the Lord Jesus will appear on earth. The thirty more days will probably be used to judge the nations (see Matt. 25.31-46), or to cleanse the sanctuary. But after another forty-five days the children of Israel will receive glory.

From the above investigation, we come to know a few things: (1) the time of the Gentiles—that is to say, the time when the Gentiles rule—will come to a sudden end, for One who looks like the Son of man will come with the clouds and set up His kingdom; (2) the last of the Gentile power will be the Roman empire, and its king will speak blasphemously against God and wear out the saints, but he will eventually be judged; (3) the Antichrist will make a covenant with the Jews, and in their unbelief, the latter will restore the sanctuary and its sacrifices; (4) but that after three years and a half, the Antichrist will break the covenant, cause the offering up of sacrifices to cease, and will introduce idolatry; (5) for this reason, desolation will continue to the end of the predetermined period of three and one-half years, and then God will deliver His holy people; and finally (6) the time of the Gentile kingdoms will come to its end with the sudden coming of the Lord from heaven to establish His own kingdom. We have not attempted with any degree of pressure to expound the above Scriptures to suit our own theory, but all we wish to do is to point Scripture to Scripture. We have noticed how the three and a half years of the little horn (ch. 7) fit perfectly with the latter half of the seventieth seven (ch. 9), and also with the three years and a half to be found in chapter 12. And so, the Scriptural prophecies spoken earlier and later agree completely with each other, except that the later prophecy does at times explain the former one or adds to what the former one had not said.

[Nottheworld]

Third Division of "Revelation" Concurs with the Other Bible Prophecies


We earlier saw that the human image in Daniel’s writing symbolizes the time of the Gentile rule. From this image we recognized Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome as signified by the golden head, the silver breast, the brass belly, and the iron legs. But we know from history that these have all passed away; only the image’s ten toes—partly of iron and partly of clay—have yet to be revealed in human history. These ten toes symbolically represent the future confederacy of the revived Roman Empire that is to arise. But at the fullness of time, a stone from heaven (which stone, as we saw, points to the Lord Jesus) will break them to pieces and will itself fill the whole earth. Likewise, in Revelation we are told of ten horns (13.1) which stand for ten kings (17.12), representing the last powers of the Gentiles. But "these shall war against the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings" (17.14). What agreement we find here with Daniel!

In the vision of the beasts in Daniel 7, it is recorded that a little horn came up among the ten horns, and this little horn "shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High [the Jews]; and he shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and half a time" (v.25). In reading Revelation, we learn of a beast (Daniel’s little horn) who is greater than the ten horns (17.12,13) and who speaks blasphemies (13.5) and makes war with the Jews (v.7). He speaks blasphemies against God (v.6) and has authority for forty-two months (v.5). Once again we see the perfect harmony.

Daniel 9 tells us of seventy sevens, of which sixty-nine sevens have already passed but the seventieth seven is yet to come. As the last seven arrives, Antichrist will make a covenant with the children of Israel; but after three and a half years he will break the covenant and set up the idol image which is "the abomination of desolation." The last two chapters of Daniel repeat the mentioning of the setting up of this abomination (11.31 and 12.11). As we have seen, the Lord Jesus himself referred to this matter too, and so did Paul. And when we come to Revelation, we find the same thing: it records how the second beast entices people to make the image of the first beast and to worship it (13.14,15,4,8).

Daniel 9 observes how the Antichrist will break his covenant in the midst of the last seven, which leaves another three years and a half remaining. This coincides with the three and a half years alluded to in Revelation chapter 7 and mentioned directly in Revelation chapter 12, during which time the Antichrist will be in power.

The time of the Antichrist is altogether forty-two months (Rev. 13.5), which is three and a half years’ time. During that period the wicked cruelty of the beast and the related idolatry shall be rampant upon the earth. It is then that Jerusalem will be trodden under foot again, that the two men clothed in sackcloth will bear witness, that the persecuted saints will flee to the wilderness to be under the protection of God, and also that the Gentiles shall have dominion on the earth. All these will happen within the three years and a half. Within a very short time afterwards, the Messiah will come to reign.

We have thus seen how the prophecies found in the book of Revelation agree with Daniel’s prophecies found in the Old Testament. Now, though, let us learn how they concur with the prophecies of the Lord Jesus.

According to Matthew’s record of Jesus’ words, the signs of the end are (1) false Christs (24.5; cf. also v.24); (2) wars (vv.6,7); (3) famines (v.7); (4) pestilences (v.7 AV; cf. also Luke 21.11); (5) martyrs (v.9); and (6) signs in the sun, moon and stars (v.29). By comparing what Matthew’s record of Jesus’ words says with the six seals spoken of in Revelation, we can readily see the similarities. Even the order of them are the same. Moreover, Jesus in Matthew’s account speaks of the "abomination of desolation . . . standing in the holy place" (v.15), but so also does Revelation (13.14,15). In Matthew, our Lord warns the Jews that as soon as they see the idol being set up, they should flee; Revelation too describes how they run (12.6). Matthew records that Jesus says that for the sake of the elect that day will be shortened (24.22); Revelation states: "the devil . . . knowing that he hath but a short time" (12.12). Jesus in Matthew’s account states how the false christs and the false prophets shall show great signs and wonders so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect (24.24); and a similar statement is given in Revelation: "he deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by reason of the signs" (13.14). In Matthew Jesus tells how people will look for an earthly Christ (24.26); Revelation shows how they follow an earthly beast (13.3). Finally, Matthew indicates how the Lord will come from heaven; and Revelation describes how the Lord with His army shall come out of heaven in glory and power (19.11-16).

We should also notice the harmony between Revelation and the Thessalonian prophecy of Paul. Paul mentions the revealing of the man of sin, the son of perdition; Revelation tells of the appearing of the Antichrist (13.1). Paul says the man of sin will oppose the Lord; Revelation records how he blasphemes God (13.6). Paul foretells how that man of sin will exalt himself as God to be worshipped; Revelation describes how he has his image made to receive homage (13.14,15). Paul describes that his coming is according to the working of Satan; Revelation narrates how he receives power from the dragon (that is to say, from Satan) (12.9, 13.4). Paul predicts he will perform signs and lying wonders; Revelation observes that "his death-stroke [will be] healed" (13.3; cf. also v.14). Paul concludes that he will be destroyed by the glory of the coming of the Lord Jesus; Revelation depicts him as being seized at the coming of the Lord and then being "cast alive into the lake of fire that burneth with brimstone" (19.20).

Can we not now see how the prophecies in Revelation correspond so intimately with all the other prophecies in both the Old and New Testaments? How truly one is the word of the Lord! Even as the prophecies quoted above from the New Testament as well as the Old await their fulfillment in the coming days, so also do the corresponding words in Revelation await their future realizations too.

[Nottheworld]

Since Jesus didn't return at the end of the 1260 years, you know you are misusing the forty two months. "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months" (Rev. 13.5). This hasn't happened yet.

[Nottheworld]

A Brief Summary Concerning Things to Come


It might be helpful to conclude with a brief summary of the end-time events. The first thing to come is the rapture of the overcoming believers. All who have the cross wrought deeply in their lives will be raptured. But those who are saved and yet mix with the world and compromise with sins will remain on earth and pass through the Great Tribulation. Only the victorious and watchful saints are ready to be received (the rest of the saved believers will go through the Great Tribulation and be received at the sounding of the seventh trumpet). All this pertains to Christians.

During that time the Roman Empire will be revived, and a very strong person shall be her emperor. He will be given certain powers by Satan in order to perform signs and lying wonders. He will call himself Christ and steal the hearts of many Jews. At that period, the Jews have already returned to their native land, but most of them are unbelievers. They shall rebuild the temple and restore their former worship and sacrifices. Out of fear towards outside powers, they will make a pact with the Antichrist for seven years in order to receive his protection. No doubt, there will still be a remnant who believe in the word of God and oppose the name of the false Messiah.

In the midst of these seven years, there will come forth a sign in heaven, for the red dragon (Satan) will be cast down from heaven to the earth. He will be filled with hatred towards the saints of God—those Jews who bear witness for God. He will stir the heart of the Antichrist—the Roman Emperor—to oppose those Jews.

But just as Satan persecutes those who belong to God, so God will punish those who belong to Satan. The "trumpets" and the "bowls" spoken of in the book of Revelation shall be the manifestations of God’s wrath towards the Antichrist and the inhabitants of the earth. In punishing the world, God will still expect them to repent, but the world will persist in evil and will not repent.

Through the power of Satan, the Antichrist will break his covenant, cause all sacrifices and offerings to cease, and will set up the idol image—that wing of abomination—for people to worship. The false prophet will come forth to persuade people to worship the image. As soon as the image is set up, the remnant will immediately flee to the wilderness. Although Satan will use every means to destroy them, God shall take care of them during the three and a half years.

Having no outlet for his wrath, Satan shall turn to persecute those Christian believers who have not previously been raptured. Many will be martyred. But at the sounding of the seventh trumpet, the believers who remain on earth shall also be raptured because they will have learned obedience through sufferings and will have now been perfected.

Then will the Antichrist gather together all nations to come and attack the Jews (the war of Armageddon). The Jews will flee from the city (see Zech. 14). This will happen at the conclusion of the last seven mentioned in Daniel, when the Lord Jesus will come from heaven with His saints and His feet will touch the Mount of Olives. He will save the children of Israel and destroy the nations which war against Him. Then shall commence the millennial kingdom.

Such is a general outline of the book of Revelation. However, those who believe in the Lord and have been faithful, watching, ready, overcoming, and praying will have already been raptured to heaven before these things shall come upon the world. There will be no need for them to go through the Great Tribulation. Therefore, we need to have the spirit of rapture now. We must have the experience of rapture in spirit before we can find it fulfilled in body. Our spirit should go to heaven first, and then our body will follow suit. May we not be entangled in the things of this world so that we may go when the time comes. The "powers of the age to come" (cf. Heb. 6.5) should be manifested in the lives of the saints today. But, alas, many today seem to fall short.

Lord, will You be gracious? Lead us and keep us that we may seek the truth, that we may have the light of the future to illumine our current course, that we may let the future judgment seat of Christ induce us to judge ourselves at present, and that we may taste the future joy now so as to strengthen our communion with the Spirit of the Lord today. Let us not study this most blessed book as though it were a kind of mental examination, but may the study of it radically change our lives and works. Amen.

[PeteWaldo]

Jesus will be in the Temple in Jerusalem when He reigns on Earth.

I see.

Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

So then the temple that Jesus rebuilt in 3 days doesn't count anymore because Jesus work on the cross was incomplete or insufficient?

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

This temple

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


During the millennial kingdom the New Jerusalem above can't come down all the way because the Temple still remains on earth, but after the 1000 years there is no need for a Temple, because God and the Lamb will be the temple in the center of the New City. By the way the Temple in the OT represents our spirit, soul and body as the Holy of Holies, the Holy Place and the Outer Court.

All that inspired from a single verse, found in the figurative language of a prophetic vision, as a definite doctrine built upon an indefinite plural.

[Nottheworld]

Apply Acts 17.24 correctly. Since Jesus is returning to be on earth just as He left (Acts 1.11) then he is going to be here awhile. He is not going to leave as soon as He returns. Therefore, He that "dwelleth not in temples made with hands" is the temple in Heaven. This does not preclude His Son from coming to die on the cross for our sins, turn over the money changer's tables in the temple on earth or to reign on earth from the temple in Jerusalem for 1000 years before the New City on the New Earth commences. It seems to me your faith is dead because you don't have faith to believe Jesus can do this. That's why you try to allegorize a literal Bible.

Why would Jesus' body, His temple, and atoning sacrifice and the pearl of great price (the temple that is the Church of the body of Christ) not count anymore because He is going to return and reign on earth for 1000 years? I don't see the connection.

Plus, I think you are a contradicting yourself, because you are arguing for no millennial kingdom but elsewhere said you are undecided: "I don't teach one way or the other in regard to the millennial reign." You sound like a ball of confusion. Who is the author of confusion? Certainly not God but Satan. If you are undecided why do you never argue for the millennial reign of Christ too? The Bible says be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8).

I still don't know what this figurative indefinite plural is you are talking about. Can you try to be more specific and less vague? So am I to take it that you don't believe the spirit is like the Holy of Holies where the ark is kept, the soul is like the Holy Spirit (Tent of meeting) and our body is represented by the outer court of the Temple? If that is your position, let's talk about it, for there are many verses we can use as OT types for the Temple and our Temple of our spirit, soul and body.

We commune with our High Priest who goes in the Holy of Holies once a year. He indwells our spirit coming down between the cherubim and sheds light in that dark place unseen by any human eyes. In our spirit, the law in the ark convicts our conscience through our intuition. When Jesus died on the cross, the altar in the outer court is where the sacrifice is slain physically atoning for our sins in the flesh. And in the Tent of meeting, the Holy Place of our soul, is where various activities of mind, will and emotion take place such as prayers of the saints taken up in the burning incense.

[PeteWaldo]

The Year-Day Theory


Recently the study of prophecy had earned for itself a bad reputation among believers because of the so-called year-day theory. According to this theory, many numbers of days in the Scriptures are computed as though a day were a year [even Isaac Newton (http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2265#post2265) made this mistake with all kinds of calculations], thus fostering predictions as to the precise date for the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ....


"The folly of interpreters has been to foretell times and things by this prophecy [Revelation], as if God designed to make them prophets. By this rashness they have not only exposed themselves, but brought the prophecy also into contempt. The design of God was much otherwise. He gave this and the prophecies of the Old Testament, not to gratify men's curiosities by enabling them to foreknow things, but that after they were fulfilled they might be interpreted by the event, and his own providence, not the interpreters', be then manifested thereby to the world. For the event of things predicted many ages before will then be a convincing argument that the world is governed by Providence." - Sir Isaac Newton

2 Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

But turn on the TV and listen to the futurists and dispensationalists! "88 reasons Jesus is coming in 1988", and on and on ad nauseum throughout the following decades.

All of them, 19th century John Nelson Darby styled futurists. (widely acknowledged as "The Father of Modern Dispensationalism")

[Nottheworld]

"The folly of interpreters has been to foretell times and things by this prophecy [Revelation], as if God designed to make them prophets. By this rashness they have not only exposed themselves, but brought the prophecy also into contempt. The design of God was much otherwise. He gave this and the prophecies of the Old Testament, not to gratify men's curiosities by enabling them to foreknow things, but that after they were fulfilled they might be interpreted by the event, and his own providence, not the interpreters', be then manifested thereby to the world. For the event of things predicted many ages before will then be a convincing argument that the world is governed by Providence." - Sir Isaac Newton

Prophets are not be known (Eph. 4.11) by their prophecy? Knowing God's providence and who are the prophets is not a mutually exclusive affair. You can have both as being true. We should know who is in the work for the Church and by so knowing we observe more of God's providence. Since Newton's prophecies failed, we know he was falsely prophesying just as we know you are falsely prophesying because nothing happened in 1978 as you predicted and you contradict yourself because you change up "time, times and half" to be 1260 years sometimes and other times you change into 2500 years, altering the text that is contradictory. It would mean John was deceived also. In the 1335th year bring us to 2023. Newton has 2060. When these days pass and Jesus does not return or returns sooner, we can know with more proof you are false prophet. 1948 and 1967 Jesus did not return either. There were still wars and rumors of wars. You directly violate God's word which says...

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (Matt. 24.36). So you can't predict a year, but you can know as you approach the season (Matt. 24.33). The Bible repeatedly warns us about trying to set a date for the return of Christ (Mark 13.32-33). Amillennialism is teaching a "false Christ" with their dates of 1948, 1967, 1978, 2012, and 2060. While you approach the season you can know when Jesus returns only, and when you are in the Tribulation you can count down the 7 years too (1 Thess. 5.2,4) though amillennialists will be oblivious to what is happening because they have another date in mind. You couldn't have know years in advance based on amillennial calculations. Believers will know by the trumpets of the Tribulation when they are upon us and being in 1000 years after which the earth is burnt up (2 Pet. 3.10). We are not to speculate when Jesus will return-what amillennialists constantly do. Rather, we are to be ready at all times for His return (Matt. 24.42-44; Luke 21.28; 1 Thess. 5:6).


2 Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Amillennialists are "high minded", "ever learning" about their prophecies that never come true and "never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away." If you are an amillennialist after you read all this, repent. As painful as it is to accept premillennial, slowly give into its precepts.


But turn on the TV and listen to the futurists and dispensationalists! "88 reasons Jesus is coming in 1988", and on and on ad nauseum throughout the following decades.

All of them, 19th century John Nelson Darby styled futurists. (widely acknowledged as "The Father of Modern Dispensationalism")
Both are sinning in their own way. I don't have the problem of amillennialists because I don't violate God's word about times, time and half, nor the 1000 years. Nor do I violate the futurists who are not abiding in the word of God which says we can't know when Jesus returns until it is nearly upon us. I have said that Jesus must return before the year 2100. I say this because Israel has already been a nation (the prophecy fulfilled) for over 60 years. Jesus said when Israel because a nation again, the time is near (Matt. 24.32) By 2100 it will be 150 years. Things happening around us are showing interesting data. The debt/gdp of countries has never in history been this high before. Money is being printed at the fastest rate ever. We have hit peak oil. Nuclear proliferation is wide spread with over 400 nuclear power plants in the world and at least 400 more in the planning stages. Oil will be over $200 soon, the battle of Armageddon over oil and hostility towards Israel is near.

Did you find any false prophecies by John Darby like for Isaac Newton? I don't agree with him that the whole Church is raptured before the Tribulation since first rapture is according to readiness. The believers not taken but left (Matt. 24.40-41) are raptured before the bowls of the 7th trumpet. They don't enter into the last 24 months (3rd woe or 7th trumpet) which is the wrath of God. Verses that support this are by the conditional statements given in Matt. 24.42, Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10, 7.9 (before the trumpets) and 12.5 for first rapture; and pre-wrath rapture is at the sounding of the last trumpet for the general resurrection shown in Rev. 11.15, 14.14-16.

[Churchwork]

The Sabbath Year foreshadows the time when creation will be delivered from the bondage of corruption.

"You are to consecrate the fiftieth year and proclaim freedom in the land for all its inhabitants. It will be your Jubilee, when each of you is to return to his property and each of you to his clan" (Lev. 25.10).

"In the hope that the creation itself will also be set free from the bondage of corruption into the glorious freedom of God's children" (Rom. 8.21).

This is the regeneration of the world with Jesus' throne on Earth during the millennial kingdom.

"And Jesus replied, 'I assure you that when I, the Son of Man, sit upon my glorious throne in the Kingdom, you who have been my followers will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel'." (Matt. 19.28).