Another Unsaved Non-OSASer

[InTruth]

Re: Robert Harris (MidnightsCryBook@aol.com)
http://www.midnightministries.com/

Shall I just erase several Scriptures in the New Testament which identify the Holy Commandment? The commandment given to Christians alone, which can make them holy by obedience? (2 Pet. 2:21)
The commandment you speak of is not something you can keep yourself in. You are just a man, high and mighty, thinking you can, but you can't. At some point you will falter, but God is so wonderful that if you believe in Him the One True God, He will keep you if you received truly to be made a new creation.

"For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them" (2 Pet. 2.21).

These people came so close (like Calvinists) to God but still rejected Him. It is not that they lost salvation. Actually, they never had it. 10 years prior to being saved I actually thought I was saved for 30 days. Then at the end of that 30 days, I said enough of this and didn't think about it for even once to my recollection for 10 years until that day I was actually born-again once-saved-always-saved. Praise the Lord!

I realized I was never born-again at all those 30 days ten years prior. That is my experience which agrees with God's word.


This is an assumption on your part--for I have faith that God will keep me; however, many Christians are living after the flesh--and they won't repent. In this vein, they will eventually transgress 1 Peter 2:21, which describes a turning from the faith--the Holy Commandment which has its roots in 1 John 3:23!, knowing you are just a man and can't keep yourself once-saved-always-saved.

Robert
How can you have faith God will keep you, because you very well may lose faith tomorrow and admit you could potentially lose salvation then. You may have faith God can keep you, but you don't have any faith you can keep yourself, because that is the demand you place on yourself in order to remain saved. The reason you hold this view of non-OSAS is because you don't know the level and extent of what a sinner (not having been touched by God to know this yet) you are that even if you made a choice for Christ, even still, you would not be able to remain faithful. You would surely stumble against an eternal God. Therefore, to truly be saved you will need to repent and believe in Christ, the Christ who by the Spirit and with the Father will keep you even when you are faithless. "If we are faithless, He remains faithful" (2 Tim. 2.13). That is a God I pray one day you receive and believe in for you to be born-again a child of God.

Christians living after the flesh will repent sooner or later towards the New City, but many will lose the reward of reigning during the 1000 years, for they are not deemed overcomers (Rev. 20.4). Perhaps you are assuming those who do not repent who you thought were once-saved, in fact, actually were never saved to begin with. When God gives eternal life, He gives it so it can never be lost. Christ guarantees, "him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (John 6.37), not at new birth nor after new birth. You can have that kind of God too, if you are willing.

"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment" (1 John 3.23).

This verse doesn't say anything about a person losing eternal life they received at new birth, or a God who is so impotent that He does not foreknow whom to give eternal life to, or He knows, but He is so fickle He takes it back, gives it again and removes it yet again, over and over like a flip flopper. Perhaps you are worshiping God in your own image and character.

The reason you work so hard for your salvation (e.g. like William Lane Craig, the Roman Church, Lutherans, Eastern Orthodox, etc.) is because you can never really know if you will remain what you deem as being saved, just like Calvinists never really know if they are saved, because it was never their choice. These are two false salvations! The way God saves is to predestinate by foreknowing your free-choice: a conditional election, unlimited atonement, resistible grace, for preservation of the saints (OSAS).

Praise the Lord, initial salvation is not by works lest any man should boast! It is a free and permanent gift.

[InTruth]

What you are saying is that God takes away our ability to choose whom we will serve after we are saved?

So what you are saying is that God takes away our ability to choose whom we will serve after we are saved? Free moral choice after we are saved, doesn't exist?

The following is an absolute in tagging the Doctrine of Eternal Security as false: “And hath counted the blood of the covenant, WHEREWITH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, an unholy thing . . .” (Heb. 10:29). Without exception, only born-again believers are sanctified by the blood of the covenant (Heb. 10:10); only born-again believers are saved through, and by, the process of faith in Jesus Christ. Therefore, only a fallen believer can count the blood of the covenant, “wherewith he was sanctified,” as an unholy thing.

Affixed to that fact, the surrounding and overall context of Hebrews 10:26 addresses Christians, not unbelievers.
God doesn't take away your ability to choose but abides in your choice to enter into an eternal covenant with Him to keep a new creation. That is a God you can trust. It would take great pride if you were required to hold yourself in that relationship when you are just a man. Free will, moral choice, doesn't go away anymore than God's free will goes away; but unlike man, He can maintain, you can't-hence the need for preservation of the saints. This takes humility to accept.

We should realize that the freedom which Paul talks about refers not to position, nor to salvation, but to the Christian’s daily enjoyment of that freedom in grace which God has given us. Such freedom is not licentiousness, not an unrestricted permissiveness to do anything one wishes. This freedom is a freedom before God, given to us through Jesus Christ. If a person comes before God and forgets the blood and looks at himself he is committing a great sin, because he has neglected the blood which God highly values. Hebrews 10.29 tells us that whoever counts the blood of the covenant an unholy thing commits a grave sin. The blood is so valuable in God’s sight that the Bible calls it "precious blood". Anyone who fails to look at the precious blood before God will lose the enjoyment of grace in this life (not eternal life).

"Ye are severed from Christ" in Galatians 5.4 means not having the blessings of this life. If one is saved, he naturally will have the blessings of after life; but if he does not know how to live daily by that which Christ has accomplished, he is not able to enjoy the blessings which Christ gives to him day by day. A shackled Christian makes a yoke for himself to bear; he lives as a slave, not as a freeman before God.

The Bible places a great emphasis on the work of Christ. It tells us that God accepts us because of the work of Christ, not because of our own works. Each time we come to God it is based on what Christ is before God, not on what we are before Him. For He esteems Christ highly and not us. Even if one should act better than Peter, John and Paul, he still comes to God through Christ. It is Christ who brings a person to God, not his own good works.

Nonetheless, a way to go to Hell is none other than treading under foot the precious Blood. Hear what the Bible says: "A man that hath set at nought Moses’ law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? ... It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (Heb. 10.28-29,31).

These verses tell us plainly that a certain class of people will fall into the hands of the living God, suffer His wrath, and receive unspeakable punishment. We know without doubt this is speaking of going to hell. We are told here that whoever violates the law of Moses will die without mercy. Many people seem to be more merciful than God! They think God would never punish sinners with hell. But the Bible says plainly that such a person will die without mercy.

Following the same trend of thought, it goes on to say that if anyone should tread under foot the Son of God, despise His redeeming blood, and resist the conviction of the Holy Spirit, he will surely go to hell. What is meant by "hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace"? It means that when the Holy Spirit moves in a person’s heart with grace by showing his sins and the salvation which the Son of God has accomplished, by causing him to know how efficacious is this precious Blood to forgive sins, and by persuading him to immediately accept this Blood for the cleansing of all his sins, that person in response resists the request and conviction of the Holy Spirit, loves his sins and uncleanness, and considers the precious blood of the Lord Jesus as insignificant. He may muse within himself as follows: "To listen is one thing, but to believe is too much. I have sinned, but I will continue to commit these my former sins. What do I care if the Son of God loved me and gave himself for me?" By so doing, he is condemning himself to hell because he has trodden under foot the precious Blood.

Consequently, it is the blood of the covenant wherewith we are sanctified (Heb. 10.29), it is "a better covenant" (Heb. 7.22, 8.6) and "an eternal covenant" (Heb. 13.20). We want to shout Hallelujah! How sweet, how glorious, and full of grace is the New Covenant! Offered to all!

So not only are rewards addressed ("a great reward" Heb. 10.35) but also those who never enter into the salvation of new birth, for by implication if "The Lord will judge HIS people" (v. 31), how much more those who "drawn back unto perdition" (Heb. 10.39) who were never saved to begin with? "Endurance" (v.36) and enjoyment is in focus for believers, not losing eternal life and going to Hell.

Hebrews 10.26-29 says that the result for its group of people is to be burned with the "fire which shall devour the adversaries"; how then can this latter group ever point to Christians? This passage can mean none but those who have knowingly rejected the gospel, therefore there is no other salvation. Otherwise, why should the word "more" be used in saying "there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins"? Why should the word "once" be used repeatedly in the preceding verses? By joining these words within their context, we can easily discern the meaning of the words "there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins".

For more study on Heb. 10.26: http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/question47.htm

[Churchwork]

No, Jesus in the One who sanctifies--"wherewith He was sanctified"--"He" is not the One who counts the Blood of the Covenant as an unholy thing--GOD FORBID, JESUS NEVER DID THAT! Even if certain manuscripts leave out the word sanctified the context of the passage remains the same--those who wilfully sin after they have received the knowledge of the truth. No wicked person has ever received the knowledge of the truth--only people who are saved receive this knowledge--the knowledge that Christ is the all inclusive sacrifice. Thus, again, believers who turn away from faith in Jesus as a lifestyle, after they have the Holy commandment delivered to them, are returning to the vomit--and they will lose their salvation.
I agree, Jesus is the One who sanctifies Himself-"wherewith He was sanctified" by the "Blood of the Covenant." If "He" as you say is Jesus, which I agree, then He "who was sanctified" doesn't refer to a saved person as you had previously alleged who then lost his saving sanctification. "He" then, is not the person sanctified who turns away the blood of the covenant. "He" is Jesus. You probably shouldn't legalize the words "knowledge of the truth" in your Roman Church position that you are taking. Many people receive the understanding of the gospel of salvation, the Holy Commandment, but still reject it.

In the OT the High Priest would go through a sanctification ritual wearing proper garments and performing certain temple activities. Likewise Jesus was our burnt offering, sin offering and High Priest like the old entered Holy of Holies once a year. http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/question47.htm (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/question47.htm)

"Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Heb. 10.39)

Since Jesus wouldn't treat His work as unholy, then "he" must be referring to Jesus "wherewith He was sanctified": that is, Jesus was sanctified. The one who "troddens under foot the Son of God" counted "the blood of the covenant, wherewith he [Jesus] was sanctified" as our High Priest "an unholy thing." "He" is not the one who counts the blood an unholy thing, obviously, since He is our High Priest and graciously is sanctified as our High Priest. The reason I take this position is because "sanctified" is not in the original earliest texts. But if it was in the early texts, I would still read it this way, because I don't feel this is really about coming so close to the Lord as much as it is comparing the once-for-all sanctified with the many sacrifices in the OT mentioned earlier in chapter 10. Even so, it covers any who do come so close to God in verse 26, who have the "knowledge of God" delivered unto them, and still turn back. Therefore, I agree with most Bible commentaries. Perhaps you should read a bunch of them and get a better sense and feel that the position you are taking is the Roman Catholic view, but they are alone as 3 measures leavening the whole.

Many people receive the knowledge of God but turn back. They are superficial. In appearance they are the tares that look like the saved wheat, but are not. I think Paul addresses both Christians and none Christians in Heb. 10. For example, many gave sacrifices, but were all saved in Israel? And was not Paul just previously talking to Christs in previous paragraph: "Let us hold fast" (v.23).

And you have to reconcile this with all the other verses in Scripture that say no man can pluck us out of His hand. We can only be born-again once, so under your system, if a person were saved and lost salvation they could never be saved again. I don't think that is loving or sufficient grace.

Just know there are people who come to the knowledge of the truth like I did 10 years before I was saved and even thought I was saved for 30 days, before giving it up. Afterward, I never gave Jesus a thought until 10 years later, when I gave my life to Christ for real. I can testify I was never saved that 10 years prior. Seeds were planted, but I most certainly sinned "wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth." I think the Lord has blessed me with this experience so I could testify to you about this passage. Spiritual knowledge is not enough. It must be matched with experience in life.

Brackets often help. "Hath counted the blood of the covenant (wherewith he [Jesus] was sanctified)". The blood of the covenant was Jesus' sanctification, His holy sin bearing.

So verse 26 is saying people come to knowledge but still reject the salvation. And even believers, there is no more sacrifice for sin; we were once-saved-always-saved, so we will be judged: "Lord shall judge his people" (v.30). Verse 27 says they will go to Hell. 28-If such will happen to people in the OT how much more with so much grace given in Christ. 29-Despite so much grace give by the Spirit, they wilfully still reject the salvation offered.

A "dog" was never saved in the first place to return to his vomit, so the dog comes and turns back. A dog is in the world. Those who turn back are not really dogs, but swine, for swine represent the false Christians (pigs putting on appearances, cloven hooves outside, but inside they chew their cud), whereas dogs are those in the world (on their paws). Never in the Bible is dog representing a person who was once saved. The Holy Commandment is delivered unto many people who still refuse it, like the disciples in the NT who heard Jesus say eat of my flesh and drink of His blood. They walked away, thus did not have saving faith that keeps, so it was a superficial false faith. Yet you would call such faith real. That's the difference between us. What you call real I call fake. Then you have no comfort because you can lose salvation tomorrow, but I can't. I would never trade my salvation for your salvation in a million years or ever.

"Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete [perfect] it until the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1.6). You have to reconcile with the preponderance of evidence and be touched deep inside your innerman. There are just too many verses speaking of OSAS, so all the verses you think a person can lose salvation, they would refer to either the person coming so close to the Lord and "draw back unto perdition" (Heb. 10.39) or they truly are Christians, but they are fleshly and carnal, so they lose rewards of returning with Christ (Jude 14,15) to reign during the 1000 years. http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/question47.htm

I'm sold on what I am selling you. It's awesome! A free gift of everlasting life which nobody can take away, but with consequences for believers if they do not overcometh as warned in Revelation 2 & 3.

[Churchwork]

"Wherewith He was sanctified"--"Jesus" is not the One who counts the Blood of the Covenant as an unholy thing--GOD FORBID, JESUS NEVER DID THAT! A Christian who has abandoned his faith has done that!
I agree, since "He [Jesus] was sanctified." The one who counts the blood as unholy is not "He". Since the one who counts the blood as unholy is not "He," then "He" can't be the person who was once saved alleged by non-OSASers as "he was sanctified."

Your whole argument fails because "He" is Jesus, not an alleged once-saved person sanctified, though no longer.

Praise the Lord for this discernment (I said same thing in the previous post as well which you overlooked I guess).

"Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he [the unsaved] be thought worthy [for judgment], who [the unsaved] hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and [the unsaved] hath counted the blood of the covenant (wherewith he [Jesus] was sanctified [as the High Priest]) an unholy thing, and [the unsaved] hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Heb. 10.29)

"who hat trodden under foot the Son of God" parallels "hath counted the blood of the covenant" parallels "hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace." (wherewith he was sanctified is an explanation of blood of covenant.)

There is no record in here in Heb. 10.29 of anyone having been saved. And even if you want to use the RSV version adopted by the Roman Church, that the person was sanctified, it is still God's offering of sanctification [to be made holy and separated for God] to us all as the once-for-all to replace the sacrifices in the previous section of Hebrews 10. Either way, your position is false and you don't know a salvation that can never be lost. And that's sad.

"He was sanctified" is Jesus, not a person who then lost his faith. Nothing about him who profanes God being saved before. Therefore, a person who wilfully rejects Christ was never saved to begin with; or a person who says he can lose salvation wilfully rejects Christ, for another-a false Christ and a false salvation.

[Churchwork]

If anyone should tread under foot the Son of God, despise His redeeming blood, and resist the conviction of the Holy Spirit, he will surely go to hell. What is meant by "hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace"? It means that when the Holy Spirit moves in a person’s heart with grace by showing his sins and the salvation which the Son of God has accomplished, by causing him to know how efficacious is this precious Blood to forgive sins, and by persuading him to immediately accept this Blood for the cleansing of all his sins, that person in response resists the request and conviction of the Holy Spirit, loves his sins and uncleanness, and considers the precious blood of the Lord Jesus as insignificant. He may muse within himself as follows: "To listen is one thing, but to believe is too much. I have sinned, but I will continue to commit these my former sins. What do I care if the Son of God loved me and gave himself for me?" By so doing, he is condemning himself to hell because he has trodden under foot the precious Blood. This includes those who want a salvation with an out-clause.

[Churchwork]

Just rewrite the Scripture and all is fine. However, the truth of the matter is this: For if we (Christians) sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth (nonbelievers never have received this knowledge), there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
KJV
Should I take this that you are a KJV onlyist? KJV has many mistakes such as confusing Hades for Hell and in Rev. 5 has the saints praising themselves rather than the angels praising God saving the saints. The former has pride associated with it, when the church in Rev. 5 hasn't even been raptured yet. I believe in the Open Bible, that is to say, all the major Bible versions should be considered and all data should be considered, otherwise a person can become narrow-minded.

I assume you are referring to rewriting Heb. 10.29. You are rewriting Scriptures because the earliest texts (Alexandrian) don't have the word "sanctified" in it. That's why, for example, the NLT (1996) left it out. Perhaps men put that word in there because they wanted to rationalize their shallow salvation. I came to the knowledge of the truth ten years before I was saved even thinking I was saved for about a month, then giving it up, not thinking about Christ for ten years. And then in January, 2001 I was saved for real. The first was superficial not real.

The latter was real and inner which could never be lost. That's why Heb. 10.26 really touches me. I don't say as you would, that you would have lost your salvation. When I reflect upon my experience with the word of God, I realize I was never saved to begin with that 10 years prior. So I am sure you are misreading Heb. 10.26. You need to match what you deem to be objectivity with experience to be absolutely sure. If you want true salvation, read The Spiritual Man (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/SMCFP.htm).

Perhaps you too will one day realize you were never born-again to begin with, then come into a salvation that is true salvation, in your spirit, new birth, in which you can never lose life. This is my prayer for you. It's amazing that what we are discussing actually shows you are not born-again, because in your deepest parts there has not been a quickening because you think it is potentially possible you could lose what you consider to be salvation. That could never be true salvation if you could be born-again and again and again.

There is a silver lining in this when you claim you can lose salvation. That's actually a good thing! So lose it, and come to Christ! God will save you one-time once-for-all if you are willing. Obviously, you are unwilling and thus "sin wilfully...trodden under foot the Son of God...and have a certain fearful look of fiery indignation which shall devour" you; "counted the blood of the covenant" not to once-saved-always-save. The Scripture describe this as the unsaved "tares" trying to look like the saved wheat, trying to save themselves by works. But the Bible says salvation is by faith, not by works. lest anyone should boast. I can sense your boasting in your own strength. "There is no more sacrifice for sins" because you want an out-clause in your type of salvation.

Remember, many of those who had thought they believed in Jesus when Jesus said eat of my flesh and drink of my blood ended up walking away. They were never truly saved to begin with. There are just too many verses that point to once-saved-always-saved to hang your hat on Heb. 10.26-29 read your way. Do you sense how men in position of religious power try to control laity by the non-OSAS teaching? I pray that you be honest with yourself about this, that you need more substance in your life than this.

I believe, therefore, you violate Scripture in your heart. "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 8.38-39). You are not yet persuaded because you are still on the outside appearing to be Christian, but inside not for real yet.

Ever since I was saved in 2001, I have had a confidence and persuasion that is undeniable so I side with Watchman Nee (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/question47.htm) and Dave Hunt on eternal security (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/assurance_for_eternity.htm), and you can keep siding with the Roman Church, Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran and other great institutions of "religious Rome" who don't have that deep inner life. For many more verses on OSAS read here (http://biblocality.com/forums/faq.php?faq=37questions#faq_question7). But my prayer is one day you have a salvation that can never be lost. Amen.

[Churchwork]

Heb 10:26 For if we (Christians) sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth (nonbelievers never have received this knowledge), there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins.
ASV

Note: The knowledge is that Christ is the only sacrifice that God accepts!

2 Peter 2:21 For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
ASV

Nonbelievers have never KNOWN the way of Righteousness; that is, except former believers!
Oh good, I am glad you are not a KJV onlyist!

You have added in the word "Christians." You shouldn't do that, for that is altering God's word, because you want a selfish salvation with an out-clause, and you added "nonbelievers never have received this knowledge." God's grace is sufficient for all (OSAS Arminianism). Jesus died for all and the word of God is being spread to the whole world, so don't say nonbelievers have not received this truth. In fact, even someone who hasn't heard the word of God could still be saved, for surely they would receive Christ if they believed in the God who created the mountains and the starts. God is fair, just, gracious and good! If you wanted to include "Christians" as "we" then it only mean loss of enjoyment for believers, not loss of life. For non-believers it means there is no more a sacrifice for sins. Jesus died once-for-all to replace the sacrifices mentioned in earlier verses in chapter 10. Even for Christians who want to live carnally, there is no more sacrifice for sins (they couldn't, for example, lose life, then get saved again, otherwise that would be like the OT of mulitple sacrifices, still living under law trying to keep the law by works and sacrifices). A believer would have to take what He has already got, which is forgiveness by the "precious blood" and build his faith upon that.

You have come into the knowledge, delivered unto you (by the spreading of the gospel) and know the way of righteousness, but still reject it. It really does help to see a real salvation from a superficial one. You have come up to God and still refuse His way of salvation. There remain no more sacrifice for sins. You as a non-believer who knows what is required of you, still refuse to place your faith in a God who keeps all those who He gives His life to. Just know that you have not blasphemed the Holy Spirit (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/unpardonablesin.htm), but can yet still come to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive THE Lord Jesus who keeps eternally.

How foolish to believe in a God who would give you eternal life, take it away, give it back, take it away, and on and on. Have you not thought that the god you worship is really just a reflection of your own behavior? God who is true, gives life once. Not twice or three times.

"I give unto them [my sheep] eternal life; and they shall NEVER perish" (John 10.28). Therefore, Robert Harris, you are not God's sheep, because you say you can perish (non-OSAS).

Proving to the world along with the Roman Church, Eastern Orthodox, Lutherans, Mormons, JW's and many more-all who believe in non-OSAS-in fact the vast bulk of Christendom, you are like them. Doesn't make you feel very special does it to believe in salvation by works? In fact, to ride your version of eternal life is quite obnoxious and arrogant to say the least! You are just a man; you can't keep yourself saved. Oh what pride of man even in things of worship of God!

This knowing it is IMPOSSIBLE to lose salvation is true authentic life! That's the faith that lasts. The faith of non-OSAS is one which like gravity eventually gravitates to where you lose it and and are lost in Hell. I can imagine you in Hell for eternity still claiming back to God you want a salvation with an "out-clause." That strikes one as insanity! But there is a blessing in disguise: if you can lose your current faith of salvation by works, admittedly which can be lost, that opens up the door to receive the faith in Christ that can never be lost. Then praise the Lord!

[Churchwork]

I've been saved for years; like I said before-eternal security, that doctrine, is not a prerequisite for salvation, and no Scrtipture says that it is. You twist Scripture to fit your doctrine--and add to it instead of letting it read the way it was written. If you continue to accuse your brothers of not being saved then the Lord will deal with you. It's His good pleasure (2 Thess. 1:6).The Scripture says, in 1st John 3:7--(My) little children , let no man lead you astray: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous: AVS
Anyone who has faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and uses it, is righteous. In fact the New Testament standard for righteousness is faith alone. No one is saved by knowledge--only by faith in the Lord Jesus saves!
Lot's of people think they have been saved for years. You too eh? 1 in 3 people on earth call themselves Christians, but are they all saved? Jesus said, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom" (Matt. 7.21) which can apply to both Christians who lose rewards, and false Christians like tares who try to look like the saved wheat, "But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way" (Matt. 13.25). There are many in the outward appearance of the kingdom of heaven (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Matthew_13.htm) that are unsaved though they may at first appear to be Christians. The judgment on the tares is going to be great when Jesus brings His "sickle" to them.

We all have the law written upon our hearts, so that knowledge that we have leaves us without excuse, therefore if you still pride yourself over others you think were not given knowledge (like Calvinists teach) so they couldn't be saved, you are just self-exalting yourself. Each step of the way, your pride is found out. The truth is we all have been given the knowledge (objective morality, law written upon our hearts) to worship the God of the mountains and the stars to believe in Him by faith. So anyone who believes and sees Jesus would surely accept Him. His grace of coming into the world is grace upon grace and is our perfect ransom paid.

You are trying to add into the text what the verses don't say and at the same time shutting your mind down to the other verses I gave you showing once-saved-always-saved. This is the kind of superficial salvation God is talking about of coming to knowledge but not receiving the quickening the Holy Spirit in your spirit for regeneration. Just know you worship a god who is impotent, unable to keep you with certainty. He does not have that power, since you say you can lose it. Therefore, you never had it, not real life. Perhaps by this selfish salvation you get to cling onto things you would not be able to otherwise.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Pet. 1.3-5).

While you drop your standards and say this doesn't matter, you will find out it is your pathway to Hell and divides eternally. I am glad I won't be in the New City with people priding themselves over me telling me they think they can lose salvation, but they are so strong in themselves they have been able to keep themselves saved. I feel "defiled" around such attitudes.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2.8).

Like C.S. Lewis said, you are like a person arguing on a train and when you get to the train station, you are still priding yourself over your unBiblical way of salvation with an "out-clause" and arguing that you can keep your "alleged" salvation. When you go to your respective town, eventually you tire because Christians don't agree with you. You ride off into the sunset. Off in the horizon, you can be found building a shack. And inside, you are repeating the words, "I told you so." That's what Hell is going to be like for you which you have a foretaste of even now. It is a Hell to worship a god who can't keep you with absolute assuredness. You are still going to think you are saved (if you don't lose what you currently believe) and that you can keep your own salvation on your own strength. What a horrible state to be in. I would feel horrible if that is what I also believed. May you feel disgusted too if you still believed that, turning to repent; then Christians will know you are our brother in Christ.

I am sure you have led many people astray and God will judge you for that, making your stay in Hell worse than most. Those who have come so close to God and still turn back like you do to worship a god who doesn't have the POWER to once-save-always-save is man who exalts himself in pride in his works to keep himself, not realizing a sinner can't keep himself. That's arrogance! He still doesn't have an appreciation for what he is-a sinner! How evil it is to worship a god who whips you around like a boomerang, saving you, unsaving you, then saving you again. You're flip flopper. Surely, God is not like that. Men make God in their own image.

You have the same problem as Muslims, Roman Church, Mormons, etc. Salvation keeping by works. You're using Jesus unrighteously. We shall know them by their fruits. Priding yourself over others you can keep your salvation is misusing His name.

May these words help lead you to Christ one day, to enter into a permanent and keeping relationship. That's what God wants and is able to do. Why want less than what God wants?

[Churchwork]

As a consequence, all who name Christ are not predestinated unto eternal salvation, neither are all foreknown. For some have forsaken obedience to the fulfilling of His commandments by love (2 John 6, 9). Certainly, this disqualifies those who abandon their faith repeatedly with willful intent and knowledge (Heb. 10:26; Jude Vs. 12).
Your verses don't read like the Bible. "And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son" (2 John 6,9 KJV).

As a consequence? I think you should have said something first before saying "as a consequence" then we can look at your conclusions.

Heb. 10.26 doesn't say the person who has come to "knowledge" is born-again, for he still has to repent and believe to be regenerated. Who says those in Jude 12 were saved before?

Try to read the passages without inserting into the text.


Minding the earthly things of this life, these have relinquished the next; they know neither the inner love of God, nor God Himself (1 John 4:8). Equally as important, God doesn’t know them (1 John 2:3-4). Weeping for those who once walked the walk of salvation, Paul imparted these very truths (Phil. 3:15-21).
1 John 4.8 does not say that those who don't love God were once saved.

1 John 2.3-4 they are not known because they were never born-again. "Hereby we know that we know him," the apostle John declared, "if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1 John 2.3-4). He who keeps the words of the Lord Jesus, he alone has truth in his heart; he who does not keep His commandments does not know Him, for he is a liar. Are not the words and commandments of Christ recorded in the four Gospels? If so, then how can we say we obey Him if we do not observe those direct commandments of His found in the Gospels?

Our forefather sinned through disobedience (see Rom. 5.19). All the people in the world are "sons of disobedience" (Eph. 2.2). But God not only has saved us from future punishment but has also saved us unto holiness and obedience. Obedience is of utmost importance. Please read Romans 15.18, 16.26; 1 Corinthians 7.19; 1 Thessalonians 4.1-2; 2 Peter 3.2; and Hebrews 5.9.

Phil. 3.15-21 doesn't say anything about those who walked the walk of salvation and now are unsaved. Again, you in_sert into the text because of your way of salvation which is not God's way. Salvation is not by works, lest any man should boast. You are weeping for people who were once saved is delusional, for God said, "These things I write to you, who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know you have eternal life" (1 John 5.13). How could a man know he had eternal life, passed out of death into life, if he had not been justified by faith which could never be lost? He couldn't.


The Law of God is to be fulfilled by the use of agape love toward others by Christians (Gal. 5:14); especially our brothers and sisters in Christ are to be loved. Your condemnation and judgement is, which is rampant in many Christians, is not the love of God in action. You will know them by their fruits--and you are consistently not using the love of God in your communication. Faith only works by the use of agape love--Christ is a mere seed when He starts off in a new Christian--Will He remain a mere seed in you? Will you condemn yourself by your own judgement and condemnation of others? Faith must continue in the saved, it is a process. But how can it continue and grow, when a person is supposedly rejoicing in Christ, while judging and condemning others?
Loving others and loving God are not mutually exclusive affairs. You are desperately grasping for straws to rationalize the idea you can lose salvation tomorrow. What an insecure salvation you have. Do you see how you try to do damage to the body of Christ by trying to tell Christians they can lose salvation tomorrow? How wicked are your works! God gives us confidence, but your faith gives you nothing but doubt. You are projecting your own condition not having love in your own words, denying before God His ability to keep His own, but like a tyrant you wield over others with pride your strength to keep yourself saved. People just don't have your power. Maybe you don't either! How can you even become a seed rising up with God's love in you if you refuse to repent and believe in a God who keeps you to the uttermost? Don't think I am condemning you, but you are condemning yourself, for it is your own choice to be unwilling to believe in Christ who gives His own "everlasting life, and [we] shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (John 5.24).

You are duplicitous with your words, for you say don't judge, but then you judge in the very same sentence you say not to judge. Using your own standards, how can you ever grow? I won't be condemned for the condemnation that is upon you, because I don't believe what you believe and I don't worship what you worship. How can you have fellowship with the body of Christ if you refuse God's way of salvation? To be in the Church you must be a member of the body of Christ. There is no germination available for growth without God's life. You can't have true fellowship in Christ because you will always exalt a pride above us with your strength of your keeping faith rather that God's faithfulness to keep us with His actions, interventions, love and grace. So you remain in dissension with true born-again believers. Eventually you will choke the good seed, so God will brings His sickle to you.

You will not be saved until you first repent of salvation by works. We are saved by faith, not by works, lest any man should boast.

[Churchwork]

"And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son" (2 John 6,9 KJV).

No, the Greek details agape love, or Christ's love flowing out to others. We are to agape love our neighbor, How much more so our brothers and sisters in Christ? You, under any interpretation of love are not very loving toward me.
It is because I have God's love I can say to you that you are misreading this verse, because nowhere specifically does it say a person can lose salvation, and so, you can trust in God to keep you. You don't have to keep worshiping your god who can't.


Luke 9:62 But Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God. ASV

Under your interpretation, no man born again can or does or has looked back. But this is not why Christ uttered these words of warning--one can look back.
This is the kingdom of rewards for the millennium. We know that a straight line is the shortest distance between two points. From this world to the region beyond, our Lord walked a straight path. "No man," He said, "having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God" (Luke 9.62). What does this mean? It means that he whose hand is on the plow must have his eyes looking straight ahead, or else the furrow he plows will become crooked. If his eyes look forward, then that which he plows is straight. But if he should glance backwards, what he plows instantly becomes crooked. Oh let us see that God does not wish us to turn aside or to turn about. He alone is to be our satisfaction.

In no way should you interpret this verse as a person losing eternal life. You are like a pinball where you can never find support for your false teaching so you keep hitting other verses but each time you in_sert into the text. "And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit" (1 Cor. 2.13). It is a very dangerous thing to keep reading the Bible without the Spirit.

One who is saved may look back but not without consequence though not able to lose eternal life since all our sins are covered by the "precious blood." Your's aren't you admit, because you don't allow faithless to be covered also, so you are not truly born-again. God does not expect us to be able to keep our salvation. He only requires that we choose His Son, and day by day, He will with our cooperation perfect us in Him. He can't help you though if you still rely on self to keep you eternally saved. You're acting like God and so you will perish. Think how strange it would be if Paul was saying he was talking about losing eternal life: "Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead" (Phil. 3.13). He is running the good race and is a motivation to others, not suggesting he might not cross the finish line. The passage in Luke is about overcoming and we need to sacrifice, just like in Matthew 8.

Hades has no power to hold back this life. And what has been deposited in the believer is this very same life. For this reason, Hades cannot withhold us either. Believers shall be resurrected first, because of their having this life. As to non-believers, though, their life will be detained by Hades after their death. Resurrection is the life which cannot be held back. However vicious the environment—trial, persecution, malice, murder, and so forth—and though we may be walled in on all sides, we have a life which can neither be withheld nor overcome by any environment. My prayer one day is you receive this same life, because this is God's will for you to stop refusing His love, but He won't force your hand.

[Churchwork]

Superseding the truth of Scripture, for some, the Doctrine of Eternal Security can be an inhibiting doctrine to the growth of faith. To clarify the validity of that view, it becomes a necessity to examine exactly what biblical truth is.
"Inhibiting the grow of faith." It is the confidence in Christ that we have who are saved that we can boldly come to Him and do His will. How is that inhibiting? But even still a believer has the choice if he wants to remain a fleshly or carnal Christian he certainly will not be one of those in Jude 14,15, that return with Christ to reign during the 1000 years (Rev. 20.4). He shall be disciplined in outer darkness, outside the light of rewards of reigning with Christ. That's a very long time, before the New City and New Earth commence. You're inhibiting growth of faith because you haven't even walked through the door of salvation, since you are still trying to keep yourself, operating on your own strength, pridefully I might add. In fact your false conversion experience was a works, because you did not come to the cross repentantly to believe in God who is able to preserve you. There can only be one thing why you would worship your god, because like all other religions, you are trying to get to God on your own merit instead of allowing God to come down to you and bring you up to Him, like a loving parent, no matter what trouble you get yourself into, He will not forsake you. May you have that kind of love one day.


Eternal security? James wrote: “Brethren, if ANY OF YOU do err from ‘the truth,’ and one convert him; let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a SOUL from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins” (James 5:19-20). Principally, James zeroed in on the issue of backsliders, for both terms, “brethren” and “you,” can only apply to believers: “if any of you do err.” Here, James is specifi cally telling us that the SOUL of a brother is at stake, none other. In other words, a believer who determinedly puts aside “the truth” of Scripture, being faith that works by love (Gal. 5:6-7), jeopardizes their salvation.
In James 5.19 “converteth simply means to “turn him back” in NASB. Again we do not assume he lost salvation. We only accept that he erred from the truth. Now I do not know if the “death” pertains to the affects of the “second death” on believers burning them from works here, or if it means an early physical death, but either way the consequence is a negative one. This believer that would be so turned back will then be back on the road of overcoming and may yet receive the reward of reigning with Christ in the millennial kingdom if he can no longer be hurt by the second death. Let’s compare some verses to see this matter more clearly, “He shall never see death” (John 8.51,52) is actually “he shall not forever see death” in the original, and “he shall never taste death” is “he shall not forever taste death” in the original. “They shall never perish” (John 10.28) is “they shall not forever perish” in the original. “Shall never die” (John 11.25,26) is “shall not forever die” in the original (that is, receives death according to what is due him).

The salvation that is jeopardized is not the regeneration of one's spirit, but the saving of the soul which is the outerman so that the whole man be saved (Heb. 4.12).

The death spoken of in James 5.19 is not eternal separation from God, but a needing to be disciplined and shall lose rewards. The sinner here is a sinning saint, and the soul refers to our life. Death is severe but a possible means of judgment- but again, what's at stake here is a Christian's physical life and testimony on earth, not his or her eternal salvation. "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matt. 10.28). The spirit of the saved man keeps eternal life and remains in God's protection, but the fires of Hell will burn off the dross of his false works of his outerman (soul and body). Praise the Lord!


James put it this way:

If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of
daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in
peace, be you warmed and filled; notwithstanding
you give them not those things which are needful
to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if
it hath not works, is dead, being alone. . . . But wilt
thou know, O vain man, that faith without works
is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by
works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon
the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his
works, and by works was faith made perfect? And
the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham
believed God, and it was imputed unto him for
righteousness: and he was called the Friend of
God. You see then how that by works a man is
justified, and not by faith only. (James 2:15-24)

If we encounter a destitute brother or sister, and just say, “God bless you,” especially when we can help and our help is needful, our faith is in vain. Being inactive, dead faith is a non-abiding faith that doesn’t justify anyone. In retrospect, James’s “truth passage” is another confirmation to “the truth,” especially since a multitude of sins become covered by a brother who wholly converts to the truth; that is, to the truth of selfless love, stemming from laborious faith. Peter agreeably wrote, “And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover (hide) the multitude of sins” (1 Pet. 4:8)!
James 2:—"What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?" (v.14) What is the motive behind these words written by James? To whom does he address himself? For some people boast that they have faith, yet there is no work displayed in their lives. If they are not refuted, the church will be evilly affected. Faith should be kept before God, not to be bragged about before men. Faith needs to be accomplished by works. All who say they have faith and yet have no works cannot be saved by their kind of faith.

"Saved" in the Scriptures has several meanings. "I know," says Paul, "that this shall turn out to my salvation, through your supplication and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1.19). Is not Paul already saved? This obviously does not refer to a believer’s receiving eternal life; it points to Paul’s being released from prison. "Who delivered us out of so great a death, and will deliver: on whom we have set our hope that he will also still deliver us" (2 Cor. 1.10), declares Paul once more. Some think that this alludes to how the Lord died on the cross to save us from the penalty of sin and is now our Advocate in heaven saving us from the power of sin and in the future will come again to save our body. Who knows for sure, say they, that these matters are not what Paul in fact is talking about here? Well, the deliverances herein mentioned pertain to Paul’s and his friends’ physical deliverances by the Lord. For by reading the entire context we learn how they had formerly been afflicted in Asia to the point of despairing even of life but that the Lord delivered them out of such a situation. For this reason, Paul believed that the Lord would deliver him out of afflictions yet further—both now and in the future.

In like manner the word "save" used by James above has reference to being profited through environment. This is clear if we read the verses which follow: "If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit?" (James 2.15,16) The "one of you" points to those who brag emptily of having faith. They do not supply food and dress to the brothers and sisters in need, but instead they vainly pronounce to the needy: Go in peace. The problem involved here is not one of going to heaven, but is one that is concerned with the warmth and the filling up of the body today. What James means to say is that you cannot simply say you have faith and yet do not supply the needs of your brothers and sisters.

"Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself" (v.17). This is a verdict given by James. He means that if you believe that those needy ones will be warmed and filled and yet you do not lend a hand to supply their needs, such kind of faith without works is not faith at all; it is dead. A living faith believes in the heart that the God of mercy would not permit those needy brethren to go cold or hungry; and at the same time this living faith causes us to distribute various physical supplies to them.

"Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by works will show thee my faith" (v.18). Those who brag vainly of their faith will be challenged by others, who will say: You say you have faith but where do you express it? You can only say with your mouth; you will not even lift a finger at the time of real need. Where then is your faith? You pretend to believe for others, though you yourself have not faith. If you have faith, why do you not give all that you have? Your brother or sister is now naked and in lack of daily food. Why do you not give what you have to him since you yourself are warmly clothed and well-fed? You say you have faith, but how are you going to prove your faith? But as a matter of fact, your faith is but empty word, your faith is dead. It does not profit the needy ones. On the other hand, though, I have works, and by my supplying the needs of brothers and sisters I prove my faith. I believe that God would not cause us to suffer cold or hunger, therefore when I see the needs of brothers and sisters around me I share all that I have with them. My works are based on my faith. My works are the expressions of my faith. By my works I show forth my faith.

"Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder" (v.19). The children of Israel believe in one God, and this is right. But the demons believe also in one God, yet they remain as demons. What James infers from this fact is that faith without works is like demons who remain demons though believing in God.

"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren?" (v.20) Vain man is but another name for the one who brags emptily of his faith. It can be said that he really does not have faith in his heart. Only he who supplies others in a practical way can demonstrate his faith to people. First faith, then works. True faith produces true works. The one who boasts of his faith yet has no works is proven to have a dead faith. Since his heart errs before God, his faith is also dead.

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar?" (v.21) If James had not quoted the story of Abraham, some readers of Romans and Galatians would consider outright that James is in error in what he says, for had not Paul spoken of justification by faith, and therefore faith is sufficient without the need of works? Yet what James maintains is that Abraham was indeed justified by faith but he was also justified by works. James does not overturn Abraham’s being justified by faith; he only proves by his offering up of Isaac that Abraham’s work is the expression of Abraham’s faith. So that he was not only justified by faith but also justified by works.

Instead of overturning justification by faith, James actually strengthens it with justification by works in proving what true faith is. Abraham’s offering up of Isaac is a work, and this work is reckoned to him as righteousness. But what kind of work is it? It is a work of faith. "By faith, Abraham, being tried, offered up Isaac: yea, he that had gladly received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; even he to whom it was said, In Isaac shall thy seed be called: accounting that God is able to raise up, even from the dead; from whence he did also in a figure receive him back" (Heb. 11.17-19). In quoting the offering up of Isaac by Abraham, James shows us that true faith must be accompanied by works. Abraham gladly received the promises of God. He believed in what God had told him, notably that "in Isaac shall thy seed be called" (v.18). Eliezer was not the one, nor was Ishmael, nor was any son who might later be born of Sarah; Isaac alone was to be the heir of the inheritance and the promises.

Now God tested Abraham in order to see what his heart was toward God and how real was his faith. God asked him to offer up on the altar his son Isaac—the one who was divinely appointed to be his heir—and there to be slain and burnt. Yet how would God’s promise ever be fulfilled if Abraham loved God and burned Isaac? If he wanted to fulfill God’s promise he could not comply with God’s request. According to man these two, far from being unified, are contradictory to each other. Yet to a living faith they are unified and not contradictory. It is God who promises, and it is God who requires. God will never contradict himself. Between promise and request God will open a new way, that is to say, the way of resurrection: "accounting that God is able to raise up, even from the dead" (v.19).

Abraham’s faith is thus defined. Even though I slay Isaac and offer him as a burnt-offering, I still believe Your promised word—"in Isaac shall thy seed be called"—will be fulfilled, for you shall raise up Isaac from the dead. So when he went off to the appointed place to offer up Isaac, he went with a determined heart. He actually bound Isaac and raised high his knife. His heart toward God was absolute, there being no reservation. His faith in God was firm and void of doubt. And when the angel of the Lord called to him and said, "Lay not thy hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him" (Gen. 22.12), he "did also in a figure receive him back" (Heb. 11.19). Abraham’s offering up of his only begotten son was a work of faith. And this is called justification by works.

"Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect" (James 2.22). This continues on from the preceding thought. Due to the fact that by offering up Isaac on the altar Abraham was justified by works, we come to realize that faith runs parallel with works, or, to phrase it another way, that faith and works operate together. Abraham’s work is performed through his faith, and faith is perfected by his works. A faith which has not been tested is undependable. By his offering Isaac, Abraham’s faith is both proven and perfected.

"And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God" (v.23). "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness"—this word is recorded in Genesis 15.6. What is the relationship between the offering up of Isaac in Genesis 22 to that word? Why should James quote it in his epistle when he suggests that the offering up of Isaac is a justification by works? And he even adds that the scripture was fulfilled. The relationship is simply this: that justification by works fulfills justification by faith. It appears as though justification by faith is a prophecy and that justification by works is the fulfillment of that prophecy. He who has faith must have works, for works explain the reality of faith. Abraham believed in God, he was reckoned as righteous, and he was also called the friend of God. Hence Abraham’s work in offering up Isaac is the fulfillment of Abraham’s faith in God. In short, his offering up of Isaac demonstrates to us his faith in God.

"Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith" (v.24). Since Genesis 22 is the fulfillment of Genesis 15, and since works are the expressions of faith because faith without works is dead and faith is made perfect by works, therefore a man is justified by works and not only by faith. Let us notice that James has not said that a man is justified by works and not by faith; he merely says that a man is justified by works and not only by faith. And by this he means to say that after a man is justified by faith he needs to prove and to be made perfect in that faith through justification by works, even as Abraham after he was justified by faith was tested by God and thus was justified by works.

"And in like manner was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works, in that she received the messengers, and sent them out another way?" (v.25) James first cites an excellent person such as Abraham to show that he was not only justified by faith but also justified by works. Next, though, he cites a bad woman such as Rahab to show that she too was justified by works. For she received the messengers and sent them out another way. What kind of work is this work? "By faith Rahab the harlot perished not with them that were disobedient, having received the spies with peace" (Heb. 11.31). This work is also a work of faith. Faith and works are inseparable; they are the two sides of one thing. With respect to this one and same thing it is called faith in Hebrews and works in James. Works are the expressions of faith whereas faith is the source of works. To say that there is faith and yet there be no works of faith shown, that faith is dead. Consequently, after there is a justification by faith there must also be the justification by works.

"For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead" (v.26). In Chapter 2, from verse 14 onward, James speaks of the relationship between faith and works. There is a kind of faith which has no works, being nothing but a vain boast; and it is dead. But there is another kind of faith which has works; and it is living. Works prove the faith, and works make perfect the faith. James uses what Abraham and Rahab did as evidences to prove his point. And finally, he uses this other illustration: "As the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead": living faith is always accompanied by works: so that just as the body without the spirit is dead, faith without works is also dead.


Now James’s text doesn’t center on unbelievers erring, again, it is the brethren (“Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth.”). Thus, James’s “truth passage” only concerns believers, as Peter’s following citing of the Holy Commandment, and those who effect righteousness through it, also does:

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the Holy Commandment delivered unto them. (2 Pet. 2:21)

Nonbelieivers never had to turn from the holy Commandment, because nonbelievers never learned the way of righteousness to begin with. Therefore, it remains that the Doctrine of Eternal Security is a false doctrine.

Robert Harris
The point of James 2 is to explain how a person, thou saved, who has no works, makes his faith dead of no effect, not that he then loses salvation. Not at all. You're totally missing the point!

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

It would have been better for you to have never heard of Jesus to remain believing in a God who doesn't have the power to assure you He will keep you faithful even when you are faithless. You turned from the Holy Commandment because you refuse God's way of salvation. There is only one way. His way. Many people have receive the commandment of the Lord and still turn from Him-were never born-again! This is you, because of your out-clause and pride in salvation by works, your own power to keep yourself. Who has this kind of arrogance more than any other? Lucifer.

There is no confidence in faith under non-OSAS and trust in God’s all knowing ability to foreknow all that which He lets Himself know.

In 2 Peter 1.9-11 we are told that some believers will be blinded, and will forget, so you are to work hard to prove that you really are among those God has called and chosen. In reading the Bible never let ourselves assume anything for the minute we fall by assuming, we are blind. Our election is fact, now it needs to be made sure. The RSV version says “confirm your call and election”. In other words strengthen that which you already have. Therefore, you shall never fall. NASB says “shall never stumble”. Fall does not mean to lose what has been given. Rather, it means to fall down. Even so, now get back up for you have the life of Christ in you. If you do not, and stay down, you most certainly will lose the rewards of the kingdom. Where do you go if you lose the rewards of the kingdom as a good many Christians will lose such reward in reigning with Christ during the millennium. It has been mentioned 3 times by name in the Scriptures. It’s name is outer darkness. We need to humble ourselves to this recognition because this is the piece of the puzzle many simply are not willing to accept, even as Christians. God has a way of putting them outside of glory – outer darkness – without any part of the kingdom. This is what Matt. 25.30 means. If you say to yourself “I will not legalize this term to be hell” then you can accept it for it no longer becomes such an monumental term.

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


Dogs and Swine, Matt. 7.6

Verse 6 is a fragment by itself. The dogs and swine mentioned here refer especially to those people cited in 2 Peter 2.21-22. Such people are fairly near the door of the church. They have received some spiritual education, yet they are never saved. The "had washed" in 2 Peter symbolizes a kind of noble ideal; it is not a cleansing through the forgiveness of sins.

The Old Testament mentions swine a great deal, and the New Testament has much to say about dogs. Both swine and dogs are unclean. Swine are cloven-footed, but they do not chew the cud; and the dog neither parts the hoof nor chews the cud. Hence both are unclean. The spiritual symbol for a Christian is the sheep.

Outwardly the swine may look better than the dog, for it is at least cloven-hoofed. This observation may be applied to churchgoers who seem to know, yet do not know, the truth. The dog has neither the appearance nor the reality of cleanness. The Letter to the Philippians warns us of dogs (3.2); and the book of Revelation (22.15; cf. 21.8) tells of the dogs which are in the lake of fire without the Holy City.

"That which is holy" (v.6) belongs to God. How do people come into possession of holy things? These holy things—possibly they are truths as revealed in the book of Revelation or are such truths as baptism, breaking of bread, and so forth—are spiritual things which come from God.

"Pearls" are "your pearls"—which denote things you personally have received from God. Thus holy things represent truths in general which come out of God, whereas pearls represent those experiences which you specifically receive from God.

[Churchwork]

Robert Harris,

Observe how precise and accurate are the Scriptures!

While James 5.19 speaks to brethren who are saved and backslide but don't lose eternal life, 2 Peter 2 refers to "waterless springs" (2 Pet. 2.17) and had "knowledge" (v.20) of the Lord, but it is "worse for them that first" (v.20). It would have been better they never knew the "way of righteousness" (v.21) Jesus died for their sins. It would have been better they come to this knowledge at a later time. In 2 Peter 2, they are never called "brethren" as those in James 5.19.

Christianity teaches that some people come so close to God, hear the gospel and even understand the way of righteousness (there are some false Christians in our midst) but then "draw back unto perdition" (Heb. 10.39), either remaining false Christians (swine) or dogs that they were. You would fall into the remaining "false Christian" category. This stance is worse off than those who had never known Christ, because you came so close to God and still reject Him. What else is there to convince you in the God Who keeps. Then there are others who are truly born-again, who either became spiritual then fell back into being carnal (will lose rewards but not life), or they remained fleshly and never matured in the life of Christ (they too will lose rewards).

I have found the reason why non-OSASers such as yourself can't let go of their false teaching is because through possession and by assumptions it is contingent on rejecting the millennial reign of Christ, for in their in their view there is no such thing; that is, no accountability, no time of recompense, so it is either saved or unsaved for the lot. They allow for no millennial reign of Christ on earth and rewards (Jude 14,15; Rev. 20.2-7)-the time of transition from the age of grace to age eternity future in the New City for them does not exist which is antinomian. But the Bible is clear: "for every eye will see when the LORD return to Zion" (Is. 52.8), that is, on earth (Zech. 14.4, Acts 1.11, Rev. 1.7). Israel will be the center of all nations (Is. 52.7-13; Zech 14.16-19). The Roman Church that Jezebel, the woman who rides the beast, makes itself the center in Rome, whereas God makes Israel the center, though not as kings and priests, from where He will reign during the 1000 years. His overcomer believers (Rev. 2 & 3) who overcometh from previous dispensations receive the reward of returning with Him to reign over the nations as kings and priests.

Paul says there is the fleshly or carnal Christian (Rom. 7.14,19; 1 Cor. 3.1) and the matured or spiritual Christian (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/7churches.htm) who "overcomeths"; and that the larger portion of all believers though all saved do not "overcometh" (Rev. 2.7,11,17,26; 3.5,12,26) in Christ before leaving their bodies of flesh and blood? "Make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly kindness, and brotherly kindness with love" (2 Pet. 1.5-7).

[Churchwork]

So one can learn the way of righteousness and know the way of righteousness without true faith? Without being born again?

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
KJV

Notice Romans 9.30 says "have attained righteousness...by faith" rather than merely knowing righteousness as is the case for those in 2 Peter 2.21.

"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that–and shudder" (James 2.19). Yes, you for one, know the way of righteousness, you know that Jesus is Lord and Savior, He created you, and He died for your sins, but you throw Him a curve ball because you don't want to enter the doorway, since you actually worship a counterfeit: a false god who can cause you to lose salvation tomorrow based on what you do and or don't do, how you decide to think or behave, instead of trusting in the God who keeps even though you a mere man and don't have the power you allege you have to keep yourself. Oh what pride of man, that even in matters of salvation, he still wants his own way to be saved. It was better if you had never even read the Bible or heard of Jesus, because now look where you are oh decrepit man, in a salvation that just feeds your keeping pride and has no comfort that it can be lost tomorrow, gained back, lost again. You make my God look like a fool as you misrepresent Him. And you lord yourself over others with your keeping power. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2.8).

Some of the most spiritual Christians in history have said they would not know what spiritual life was if they didn't know about and experience the dividing of their spirit, soul and body (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/spiritsoulbody.htm), to walk after the spirit and not the outerman's soul and body. This is exactly what's happening here. A person can acknowledge a truth and righteousness in Christ in their soul by mentally acknowledging it with various acclamations. But their innerman has not been regenerated and the conscience has not been quickened for eternal life. Such a salvation of this could never compare one where "you may know you have eternal life" (1 John 5.13). How could a man know he had eternal life, passed out of death into life, if he had not been justified by faith permanently? He couldn't.

When our assurance of salvation is based at all on our works, we can never have absolute assurance...! But does Scripture discourage giving objective assurance of salvation? Hardly! On the contrary, the Lord Jesus (John 5.24), Paul (Romans 8.38-39), and John (1 John 5.11-13) have no qualms about offering absolute, objective assurance of salvation. Furthermore, works are never included as a requirement of assurance. Whoever believes on Him shall be judged no more, because he "hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (John 5.24). How can this happen more than once? It is a one-time, once-for-all transaction. In eternity He has formed a will which wills to save us that none of us should be lost: "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day" (John 6.39). How then can we be saved and later be unsaved? Our salvation is forever secured in the unchangeable will of God.

My experience agrees completely, and I had the humility to accept I was never born-again to begin with. Do you have this humility? Ten years before I was saved, I received a miracle. Then for approximately thirty days I thought I believed in Christ in repentance and faith. At the end of that time, I left what I was drawn to, and didn't think about Jesus for ten years, probably not even once. I loved the world. But then came January, 2001 when I was born-again: once-saved-always-saved.

Ten years prior to that, even though I knew the way of righteousness, I left it. I freely acknowledge to you that I was never born-again. I was guilty as those who "have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ...again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning" (2 Pet. 2.20). Know then how grateful I am to God to have come so close to Him with knowledge of His righteousness, the power to heal me of sure death with one of the most amazing miracles this planet has ever seen. And yet I turned my back on Him!

Initially, I thought I had actually been born-again for ten years, but sorta in a coma, then I ventured the possibility I was truly saved, but lost eternal life. It didn't take me long to realize after being saved in 2001, the reality in understanding the Scriptures makes it clear and touches me very deeply that I was never born-again to begin with ten years prior. I can tell you that was such a wonderful feeling that came over me to know all that led up to 2001 was not salvation. "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them" (2 Pet. 2.21). The probability of someone being saved thereafter is very small. All I can say is I am eternally grateful! May my experience help those whose faith is not real in which they think it is a sin to believe they could never lose salvation. God is not an evil tyrant constantly threatening you with losing eternal life. Man is though. God is like a loving parent whose children He will never let go: "kept by the power of God" (1 Pet. 3.5). Have you ever known such love?

A disturbing thought just occurred to me. People who claim such people were saved and then became unsaved is an insult to God's character. My God is greater than that. He doesn't consider that salvation. We need to raise our standards and not bow down to human conceptions. How absurd that God has saved men behaving like animals then calling that salvation. No! They were never saved to begin with. They did not truly come to the cross for real with true repentance and faith to believe in the One whose saving grace is an irrevocable gift: "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable" (Rom. 11.29).

If only people could be honest with themselves and stop clinging onto a false salvation, they might actually get saved.

Praise the Lord! Amen.

[Churchwork]

Got any Scriptures that requires a person to believe in the Doctrine of Eternal Security, or they can't have faith in Christ and be saved? I'm waiting! Just the Scripture is all that is necessary--theory doesn't count.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3.16). The false Christ is one who says you can lose salvation tomorrow and Rev. 22.18,19 says you will go to Hell for trying to alter Jesus. "For false Christs...shall rise,...to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect" (Mark 13.22). You worship a false Christ who says IT IS POSSIBLE to lose eternal life: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand" (John 10.27-29). God keeps saying one thing and you keep saying something else. Who is it that worships false Christs if it is not you?

How in heavens are these the same Jesus? They are so diabolically opposite one another, to make them the same Jesus is such a massive contradiction, you're just trying to seduce yourself and others into a salvation by works without utterly trust for salvation in Jesus: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2.8). It's conclusive! This is the Jesus you will need to receive to be saved, and not a redefined Jesus contrary to Scripture. You may think you believe in Jesus, but you can't find a verse in the Bible that agrees with your Jesus. That is evidence enough. True salvation, to receive new birth or to keep the gift of the Spirit is something you can't nor will ever be able to do. "For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable" (Rom. 11.29). Why do you keep calling God a liar? Where is the love, and truth, in that?

Maybe you want to receive the Christ also that is modalist or tritheist or has two wills or redeems you in Hell or is not fully man and fully God but only appears to be a man and is only fully God. There is a long list of false Christs (http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1065) as Jesus said there would be. But according to your theory that's alright as long as their name is Jesus they can all save you. Oh how deceived art thou man, who can know how deep the corruption of his heart runs to.

[Churchwork]

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3.16).
This Scripture doesn't say, "For God so loved the wold, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, and the Doctrine of Eternal Security, should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Now give me a clear Scripture stating your view--so far you have failed!
Where does this verse say "in him" is in a false Christ who is is unable to assure you salvation and keep you saved? That is not the Jesus of the Bible. Anyone can attach whatever they want to "him"; but is it Him? Many will say "Lord, Lord" didn't we do this, didn't we do that, to which He will reply, He never knew you. Who knows how liberal you will take this, but 1 in 3 people on the planet claim they a Christians, and many of the rest claim they believe in Jesus too in their own way.

Who is God and who is His only begotten Son? Is He the one who makes a promise and then breaks it? Of course not. Therefore, you worship a law breaker-a false Christ!

These have been clear Scriptures all along! You simply don't want to be saved God's way-so your portion is eternity in Hell. Your preference is for a selfish salvation with an "out-clause". And that is sad, "For it had been better for" you "not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after" you "have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto" you (2 Pet. 2.21).

There is no way you will be born-again as long as you continue to refuse to repent and believe in a God who can't keep you saved.

[Churchwork]

Since you believe in the false doctrine, the dead are dead and they don't have spirit, you might as well erase 1 Thess. 3:13 from your Bible. Also, I believe that God is the God of the living, not the dead!
You know your argument fails you when you have to sin bearing false witness to make your arguments. I believe dead have a spirit, so why accuse that I don't believe this? When I die, I go to rest or timeless unawares like where Lazarus is and the repentant thief. We will be resurrected together at the end of this age (1 Thess. 4.15-17). Who does that offend you? Paul said the living will not be taken up before the dead are raised. Why do you violate this? And yank man around putting parts of his being in one place then another. That's weird.

We keep our spirit and souls, but when resurrected we get a body. You can't come before the High Priest naked as you intend to do. When resurrected, I will not realize time has passed since the day I went to rest. That's why Jesus said to the repentant thief, I will see you "this day" in paradise. Jesus did not go up to 3rd Heaven the day He died on the cross, but went down to Hades and what Jews call paradise below in contrast to paradise above.

I also believe in 1 Thess. 3.13.

"To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his holy ones" (1 Thess. 3.13).

If you overcometh, you will return with Christ. Obviously, not all believers return for the millennial kingdom because they don't all keep the word of His patience. Who can say the condition of those in Revelation 20.4 matches all believers? Why then would God tell the churches to overcometh if there are no consequences?

God is the God of the living and the dead. Why do you pride yourself on going to Heaven before David? God said not even David, a man after His own heart, is in Heaven yet.

You are searching for straws. Bottom line: you reject the Bible and Jesus who said: "I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish" (John 10.28). Any child could not perceive differently. Only man in his convoluted thinking aims to twist and be disingenuous with the clear teachings of Scripture.

You don't have eternal life, because you could perish. Salvation by works is pride: "Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2.9).

You think too highly of yourself: ""For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves" (Eph. 2.8).

[Churchwork]

You are making a great mistake in your understanding and in your accusations--I have the Lord everyday and I have a good relationship with Him--it is a sin for you to judge others and condemn others because you think that Christians have eternal life no matter how they live out their life--in your understanding the Holy Commandment wasn't delivered to or received by Christians who failed in their faith--but nothing could be farther from the truth. No nonbeliever ever learned the way of righteousness or knew the ways of righteousness--overcoming--then turned from their faith, which they never had to begin with. Thus, 2 Peter 2:21 refers to Christians who were once saved; who once had faith, but turned from that faith.

I believe the Holy Commandment was delivered and received by Christians. The problem is your ecumenicalism in which you think so many people are saved and you call them all Christians, but then claim some of them lost their faith and salvation. Scripture says, "I give unto them [my sheep] eternal life; and they shall never perish" (John 10.28) and we who are saved are a "little flock" (Luke 12.32). I just can't find anything in Scripture that agrees with you, nor are you able to.

You condemn yourself. I am not condemning you, but simply reporting back to you what God's word says. You are judged already: "condemned already" (John 3.18). But I am not judged with you, because I don't believe what you believe that God gives eternal life, takes it back, gives it again, and on and on. As Dave Hunt says, that would be a strange kind of salvation. What kind of God is that? I am protected on all sides with the Church, brothers and sisters in Christ, such as Watchman Nee, Dave Hunt, Jessie-Penn Lewis, Lee Strobel, and Gary R. Habermas. What do you have? You have the the teaching of the Roman Church, Eastern Orthodox, Mormons, JW's, Lutherans and the vast bulk of Christendom that is deceived and under a curse.

In fact, as far as losing your salvation goes, you also agree with Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and virtually every other religion which is salvation by works: keeping it by works. You even agree with Calvinists in that you both erroneously believe to know the way of righteousness a person has to be saved first without the choice, for you deny the choice to receive the salvation to be once-saved-always-saved. You guys don't know the one and only true God. Only in Christianity does God predestinate by foreknowing our free-choice: a conditional election, unlimited atonement, resistible grace, for preservation of the saints (OSAS Arminian). Just as you are born physically once, you can only be born-again once. You can't be born-again again! How absurd!

You're in a relationship with a false Christ who everyday keeps telling you that you might go to Hell. What love is this? You already have a foretaste of Hell since you are not born-again. You can lord yourself over others with this lie that you are so powerful to keep yourself, but Christians know better. Even when a Christian's faith falters, God said He is faithful. "If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself" (2 Tim. 2.13). In other words, He keeps us who are saved. God preserves His saints to the end. "He is able to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him" (Heb. 7.25). "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand" (John 10.27-29). You're just doing the Devil's work by violating God's loving words.

The way of overcoming follows new birth. The knowledge of this is imparted to many people, but they still "draw back unto perdition" (Heb. 10.39). They come so close to the Lord like you do, but still keep a wall between themselves and Him, so they were never born-again to begin with. Just as you are now, I was once was also 10 years before I was saved. I too thought I was saved for a time, but I realized after being truly born-again ten years later, what true salvation was. You don't have this life, so I keep praying for you.

How strange a gospel that would be if nobody could ever know the way of righteousness and salvation in Christ, unless they were already saved. That is a very Calvinistic teaching to say the least. It also makes Jesus' death on the cross all in vain! You would have been better off not to know the way of righteousness in Christ then to be where you are now. Because you could have been introduced to Jesus at a later time when you were more receptive, or your permanent stay in Hell would not be as horrific as it is going to be since you came so close to God and yet still turn away for a false salvation. "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them" (2 Pet. 2.21).

Instead of thinking a person is a Christian who was saved today, but tomorrow lost his salvation, realize he was never saved to begin with.


Not only are you guilty of all the above, but you are endangering your own faith by these misunderstandings and false accusations--for faith works by agape love--in fact, we know that we have passed from death unto life because we love the brethren (1 John 3:14), HOWEVER, I see no love on your part--for you judge and condemn others who Christ died for, denying that they have faith, which every Christian is saved by. So your chastisement (if in fact you will continue in your salvation) from the Lord is coming your way--if not, then you will, as a lifestyle, turn from the Holy Commandment delivered to the saints.

Robert
I see no love in your words, for where is the love in telling a person they can lose salvation tomorrow? That is what you are saying. Your god is evil and threatens you daily if you don't do what he says, otherwise he will take away what he alleges to be your salvation. God is not a threatening evil tyrant. This is the characteristic of evil dictators in the world which you fashion God in your own image. He knows how weak man is even after being saved, and knows no man can keep himself. If only some would realize that they could be saved to stop thinking they are almighty powerful to save themselves. Oh what pride! Who can bear it?

You can accuse and misunderstand God's word, but that is your choice. The verses are given and they are most clear. Your liberalism and ecumenicalism go too far. God can't even save as many people you claim are saved who Jesus died for, but who want another salvation. Then you accuse Christians who by the Holy Spirit know the condition of the ecumenical spirit and the spirit of the evil tyrant. Just know this, however much you pride yourself over keeping yourself and exalting yourself over others and are locked into books you wrote (committed to heresy) that you can't get out of, in so much you do to put yourself on a pedestal above God whether you realize it or not, God will not give into your demands. Salvation is authentic. Selfish salvation is man's way of even trying to receive and worship God. "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1.13).

It is a sin to have a doublestandard. You said don't accuse, but you accuse, when you said, "your chastisement is coming". I am certainly chastised by the evil spirit who wields the threat of losing eternal life, but God protects from that heresy because of the verses you were unable to disprove that God keeps the elect. The conditional election once entered into is unconditional, because that is the kind of salvation the believer repented towards and accepted in Christ. You are left without, like seeds that fell on the wayside and never even planted their roots.

May you have the comfort of eternal life which can never be lost and no longer be saddened by the constant threats of losing your alleged salvation tomorrow perpetuated by the evil spirit.

"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil" (John 3.15-16,19).

"Even that question wouldn't have come up except for some so-called Christians there--false ones, really--who came to spy on us and see our freedom in Christ Jesus. They wanted to force us, like slaves, to follow their...regulations" (Gal. 2.4).

"For there shall arise false Christs...insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect" (Mark 24.24). They can do damage, but they can't cause us to lose life.

Praise the Lord!

[Churchwork]

I've always believed that we have eternal life the moment we accept Jesus--the moment we believe in Him, but I don't believe every Christian who is saved will live their lives out as saved--but will turn from their faith; and yes, you are, not God, condemning and judging me. Many Christians who are born again and don't have faith in denominations, don't believe the lie of automatic Eternal Security--many believe as I do, that a person can turn from their faith after learning the how of righteousness. The proof is in the pudding--many after naming Christ, don't grow and continue, if not worsen, living after the flesh. You, and your judgements remain despicable!!! It is your flesh to condemn others--not the inner Christ in you!!!
As we have seen in verse after verse you worship a false Christ who doesn't keep the elect but threatens them like an evil tyrant as you pompously exalt yourself over others with your almighty power to keep yourself. If only we could be as strong as you! The truth is only God can keep. You can't keep yourself. There are no verses for a person clearly losing eternal life once saved, but there are verses showing OSAS. This shows you try to save yourself by works and don't trust in the One True God to keep, so you worship another. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand" (John 10.27-29). Since you don't believe in this God you are not saved; therefore, you are going to Hell if you remain as you are. Stop your boasting and give your life to Christ.

You are condemning yourself. I am simply showing you God of the Bible. Don't blame me for your choice to reject God. Where did I claim to be God? That's a lame accusation! You are judging when you falsely accuse and call salvation (OSAS) a lie. Why do you have a doublestandard saying not to judge but then you judge? Seems unethical. I call that a "selfish judger" which points back to self as the center. The Bible says be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8). Your entire behavior is inappropriate which stems from a false salvation and under deception. Even if you are not affiliated with a demonination, it is still false salvation. Not attending the Roman Church doesn't get you off the hook you are on.

You have learned from me the how of righteousness in this long thread, but you till reject it, that is to place your trust in the God who keeps eternally and not a god who can't necessarily. Many do remain carnal Christians once-saved, so they will lose rewards of the millennial kingdom. Understand many of your false teachings tie-in together. Because you don't regard accountability for Christians for the millennial reign, you harden your heart threatening people with losing salvation to control them evilly for another little harlot. But in Christ, true salvation has accountability to return with Christ to reign during the 1000 years or lose that reward in "outer darkness" (mentioned by name 3 times in Scripture).

The Holy Spirit is leading me to tell you these truths. Your rejection of Christ remains despicable in your pride of thinking you can keep yourself saved against a God eternally greater than you. This is the teaching of all religions: salvation by works. What pride! It is is gross. It is the lie of the serpent in the Garden you can be like God and save yourself. You are not even a Christian living after the flesh, but a false Christian, the "unsaved tares" (see Matt. 13) trying to look like the saved wheat (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Matthew_13.htm) for "filthy lucre" and book sales. Just as Jesus said, we are not here to condemn you, but show you His love and the way of salvation. Why do you keep refusing it? You'd rather be a King in non-OSAS Hell than with God and the Lamb in the New City who keeps His children forever!

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved" (John 3.17). Amen.

[Churchwork]

Faith isn't knowing that God exists, it is trusting God in all areas of your life--and you have not trusted Him in your accusations and judgements--thus your faith at present is failing--will you continue to fail?
Even the demons know God exists. Salvation is trusting repentantly in God who keeps to receive eternal life which can never be lost, not a god who can't ensure this. Obviously you don't worship God who keeps, but You who keeps, which is the lie of the serpent that you can be like God. You're not just blaming me for pointing out your false salvation, but you are accusing the prophets and the apostles, and Jesus who said, "I give unto them [my sheep] eternal life; and they shall never perish" (John 10.28). You worship a false Christ in which you have a probability you will perish. That is not very comforting to a real Christian.

Yes, Satan, you accuse me my faith is failing; but my faith is strong, since I place my trust in God who keeps. Robert, you're just projecting your own condition onto me since you are non-OSAS. I'm an OSAS Arminian just like Jacob Arminius, Watchman Nee, Jessie-Penn Lewis, and all Christians. This is the God in Whom we are saved by no matter how much that offends you. As the Apostle John said, "These things I write to you, who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know you have eternal life" (1 John 5.13). How can you really know if you are saved and saved for forever, if you are a non-OSASer who thinks he might lose salvation tomorrow, or if not tomorrow, then next week or later this year, or next year, or in ten years from now? Not possible, not for someone who has a real relationship with Christ Jesus.


I've already written you about the two kind of works in the New Testament--there are law works and godly works of faith and agape love. Christians need to practice godly works, or they won't bear fruit--and you shall know them by their fruits--and yours, when it comes to love, peace, gentleness, longsuffering, goodness, meekness and temperance are nothing to write home about.

Let me get this straight. You mean to say when the Jews were trying to keep the law, they were not doing so with godly works of faith and love!? That's a strange claim. Then they would be sinning if the didn't commit adultery, for adultery is ungodly, without faith and love. You claim you don't try to keep the law which no man can keep, but you can keep another law of works onto yourself, even works which you allege to be love? And if you do so, you will be able to keep your salvation? Oh great man that you are! Impress us with your keeping salvation that only you can muster! You don't know the gospel of salvation. Man can't keep anything. He always falters. Only God can keep.

Not one tittle of the law shall pass till these things are finished. I don't see the love in you or your god since he threatens you and you threaten others with losing salvation, and causes you to pompously exalt yourself over others because of your own almighty power to keep yourself saved even though Peter said, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Pet. 1.3-5).

My prayer is one day you give your life to Christ. The Holy Spirit has clearly shown you are not born-again, and it would be a great tragedy all your life to think you are saved when you are not. This is Satan's greatest ploy. The best thing that could happen is you lose this way of false salvation of non-OSAS that you have, and be transformed: give your life to the One True God and Christ who can keep you once-saved-always-saved. Amen.

My sincerest prayers go out to you Robert Harris, you don't need to remain as you are as so many are lost in the Roman Church, Eastern Orthodox, Lutherans, Messianics, Mormons, JW's, Muslims, Hindus, etc. who all teach salvation by works just like you, worshiping a god who doesn't ensure salvation for all His children. Where is the love in that?

Praise the Lord!

[Churchwork]

I've already done this, and this is why you re in trouble. Accusing falsely!
I have told you the truth. You're in trouble, because you are not saved and you accuse the brethren falsely of accusing you falsely. You worship a false Christ. Nothing in Scripture indicates you have given your life to Christ for you have altered salvation so it can be lost. This is not true salvation-new birth. You still want to worship a god and have a selfish salvation with an "out-clause," instead of trusting your life into the hands of God who can keep. Think of it this way. You are still holding onto you instead of letting go for God so Christ can be your life. It can be scary I know, but when you finally are born-again, letting go, wow! It's sorta like jumping out of an airplane for the first time. Therefore, you arrogance shows forth because you exalt yourself in your alleged ability to be like God able to keep what only God can keep.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2.8). "For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day" (2 Tim. 1.12). "Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete [perfect] it until the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1.6). "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 8.38-39). "For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable" (Rom. 11.29).

In Christ Jesus our Lord! Not your false Christ! Of all these false Christs spoken of in Scripture, if not yours then whose?

[Churchwork]

You re still in trouble. Accusing falsely! I am saved! The trouble is your understanding--the unrighteous have never learned the way of righteousness--thus the saved who have learned the way of righteousness, but turn from it after knowing it--are the ones which 2 Pet. 2:21 is talking about!!!
You're still accusing falsely and still not a child of God because you are unwilling to repent and believe in the God who can and will keep you, but instead worship a god who gives you an "out-clause" to go to Hell. You didn't divest of yourself into the God who gives eternal life eternally, but still cling to your self-strength to try to save yourself by works and boast of it like every other religion does except Christianity. Man even wants to save himself in things of God. What vanity!

You are the unrighteous, you have learned the way of righteousness just as I once did but turned from it, yet you still refuse God's way of righteousness, whereas I am now saved. Just as you can be born physically only once, you can only be born spiritually once. Just as you can enter the old creation only once, you can only be a new creation at new birth only once. I know you don't trust in God's infinite foreknowledge to be able to do this, but just know that God has the foresight not to give someone His life if He would then have to take it away. How strange that would be to have gained and lost eternal live dozens of times. That's your god of works you fashion in your own image, like someone who tries to start up a business, goes bankrupt, tries again, goes bankrupt, tries again and goes bankrupt again. Each and every time, you still had a bankrupt spirit.

Who claims to keep themselves saved against a God who is eternally greater than you but the prideful man? Thus, the unsaved who have come close to God have known the way of righteousness, but turn from it after knowing it. They are at the door, even enjoying the outdoor gathering, but they don't enter in (their inner man is still dead to God). They are the ones which 2 Peter. 2.21 is talking about! Their Hell is going to be worse than most, because you have been given so much grace and still want to be saved another way. Your condition is most decrepit. My prayers go out to you, you don't have to remain as you are as you keep self-exalting yourself over others who are not as strong as you are to keep yourself. Calvinists persevere for wrong reasons also. Not because they believe they can lose salvation, but because they are not sure if they are saved to begin with, since it was never their choice. Just as you have never made a choice for God who can keep, you work to try to keep yourself to hope you can keep holding on with your version of faith. Both are false, not members of the body of Christ. They both totally missed the salvation God offers us.

[Churchwork]

These are all imaginations in your head--i am born again, and savedI think Watchman Nee said it best (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/neeosasarminian.htm), "This is the starting point, and experience warns us.... The foundation of all service for the Lord is that we have met him and come to know him for ourselves, and have received the absolute assurance that, in him, we are eternally saved" (What Shall This Man Do? p. 194).

You don't have this assurance and would have had it by now after all these years if you were saved. Even Satan recognizes this weakness in men though he could not find it in Job to try to save themselves. "Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life" (Job 2.4). What you are trying to do, you don't need God to do for you. You're too powerful in your self-life for that.

My prayers go out to you that one day you give your life to Christ and accept the Christ who guarantees, "him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (John 6.37), and stop calling Christians "dogs": "But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again" (2 Pet. 2.22). A Christian returns to his vomit?

"And the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire" (v.22) with the outward appearance of being Christian, was never saved to begin with; whom comes so close to the Lord, then "draw back unto perdition" (Heb. 10.39). You make me sad because it looks like you are never going to repent and give your life to Christ. It's almost too late for you because you are stuck in your ways, forsaking the way, truth and life.

Your choice. You have nobody to blame but yourself. You're just an "accuser of our brethren" and will be "cast down, which accused them before our God day and night" (Rev. 12.10). "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb (OSAS), and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death" (v.11). Unlike Job, you love your life not unto death because you will give anything to hold onto your "out-clause" that tomorrow if you feel like it, you can turn from the the faith you allegedly claim to have. Doesn't sound like a very strong commitment. God will give authentic life to the committed souls, not someone like you sitting on the fence who depends on an escape route away from God.

[Churchwork]

Wrong ways of thinking: “Okay, I have committed a lot of sins, but here is how I will make it up to God.”

Ray Pritchard, in his book, An Anchor for the Soul, tells a humorous story which depicts our situation before God.

Picture a rich, well-dressed man coming up to Saint Peter at the entrance gate to Heaven. He rings the bell and Peter says, “Yes. Can I help you?”

The man says, “I would like entrance into Heaven.”

Peter said, “Excellent, we always want more people in Heaven. All you need to enter is to earn 1,000 points.”

The man says, “That shouldn’t be any problem. I’ve been a good person all my life. I’ve been involved in civic things; always given money to charitable causes, and for 25 years I was chairman of the YMCA.”

Peter writes it all down and says, “That’s a marvelous record. Let me see, that will be one point.”

With a look of fear on his face, the man says, “Wait a minute! There’s more. I was married to my wife for 45 years and I was always faithful. We had five children–three boys and two girls. I always loved them and I made sure they got a good education. I took care of them and they all turned out all right. I was a very good family man.”

Saint Peter says, “I am very impressed with your life. We don’t get many people like you up here. That will be another point.”

The man is really sweating now and starts to shake with fear. He says, “Peter, you don’t seem to understand. I was a member in my church. I went every Sunday. Further, I gave money every time they passed the plate. I was a deacon, sang in the choir, and I even taught Sunday School class.”

Saint Peter said, “Your record is certainly admirable. That’ll be another point. Now let me add this up: That’s one, two, three points. I believe we only need 997 more.”

Astonished and trembling, the man falls to his knees and in desperation says, “But for the grace of God, nobody could get in there!!”
Peter looks at him, smiles and says, “Congratulations! The grace of God is worth 1,000 points."

A lot of people think that the way they are going to have their sins forgiven and get into Heaven is to believe in Jesus and do something! They think by believing in Jesus and being baptized, or becoming a church member, or doing good deeds, or by the taking of the sacraments that their belief in Jesus plus their good works will get them into Heaven. The Bible utterly condemns such thinking:

“It is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy Christ saved us” (Titus 3:5).

“By the works of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight” (Romans 3:20).