Watchman Nee vs. John Calvin

[masta100]

Do you believe that John Calvin was regenerated? Watchman Nee believes so. I read the book, "The Church and the Works" and in there Watchman Nee puts John Calvin in the list of regenerated people.

[Churchwork]

Do you believe that John Calvin was regenerated? Watchman Nee believes so. I read the book, "The Church and the Works" and in there Watchman Nee puts John Calvin in the list of regenerated people.
Watchman Nee was an OSASer, so realize this is what he is defending as he was clearly OSAS Arminian (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/neeosasarminian.htm). Calvin said a person couldn't lose salvation; it is only in this context Nee agrees. Understand what Nee is agreeing with. Nee is not claiming Calvin is regenerated based on the 5 false teachings of Calvinism, for he speaks about just one way of salvation: OSAS Arminian.

Think of it this way. Calvin taught some edifying things, but that doesn't mean he was regenerated. Even I could appreciate some things Calvin wrote. Nee gave people the benefit of the doubt, but as we delve a little more into the individuals, we see John Calvin and Witness Lee were never born-again. Nee could not have predicted what Lee became, nor thought it enough through Calvin was unsaved as Calvin refused to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. The same applies to Lee, since Lee taught Total depravity also (among his many other heresies, e.g. 6 major sins of Leeism).

[masta100]

You claim that John Calvin wasn't regenerated. But according to the book, "The Church and the Work I, The assembly life" by Watchman Nee he says otherwise. This is his exact quote.

"The Bible teaches that the Church is one. The Church which Paul belonged to is the same Church to which we all belong. Our Church is the Church also of the apostle John, Martin Luther, Calvin and all the other regenerated people throughout Church history." ( Page 59 )

You should check yourself and watch what you say. How dare you say that other people that love God with all their hearts and lived absolutely for his purpose are not regenerated and that they are going to hell.

You are out there to prove that something is wrong. YOur time and effort is basically dwelling on the negative things and problems. You just need to turn to Jesus and love him and forget about hating and showing no humility to the members of God.

[Churchwork]

Andrew (masta100 or msta100, http://www.youtube.com/user/msta100 (http://www.youtube.com/user/msta100)),

By the way, that was page 49, not page 59.

Lots of people think Luther, because of justification by faith, and even Calvin, because of OSAS, are saved. If that's all you knew about them, likewise, I couldn't deny their salvation either a popular men of faith. But being popular is not a sign of salvation. As was said, they are not saved, because they refused to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. They admit it. Watchman Nee did not realize this even though he disagreed with Calvin's teachings of Total depravity, irresistible grace, unconditional election, and limited atonement. Watchman Nee was just mentioning some popular people in Christendom for specific aspects of their teaching. Don't read into it more than that. You can agree with someone based on something they say. This does not mean you agree with them on other things they say. For example, I could believe you were saved, all else being equal, if you claimed you believed in the Trinity, but when I found out you believed in Modalism, I discover you worship another. Then I find out several other false things taught in your cult, e.g. deification, Total depravity, screamers, suing Christians for their faith, and bearing false Witness, altering Watchman Nee's writings (such as part 1 chapter 2 of TSM), etc.

How dare you assume someone is regenerated who clearly admits they refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. You have this knowledge about them, yet you still call them Christians? You save more people than God is able to, to lower your conscience in a greater vat of allegedly saved people. This helps improve your odds, so you think, but you are just fashioning God's saving grace in your own image.

Don't pride yourself on claiming people are saved who are not. You don't collect points for that. That's false humility. Don't be like Satan saying, don't accuse of the negative, when it is the negative that corrupts your heart which you are clinging to and shutting your mind down to and need deliverance from. It is negative to claim so many people are saved who are not when you know better. Problems will occur when you think that way. You think you are being positive, but it is really negative, for it is negative for someone to go through their whole life deceived, thinking they are saved, when they are not.

Receive Christ into your heart by repenting to the cross to be saved. Only then will you be regenerated. Don't pridefully assume you are regenerated causing you to repent and believe. That is not true repentance and faith. You're dwelling on false teachings by closing your mind off to their problems, but they won't save you one bit. The sin remains in your heart. Where is the humility in that? Suffice it to say, you are having a hard time leaving your LSM cult and like many before you, you're motivation is to try to marry Watchman Nee to Witness Lee, but Nee was OSAS Arminian, your Witness Lee was a Calvinist, and Watchman Nee would never have accepted the 6 major sins of Leeism or Lee's form of ecclessiology which Lee called The Local Church (his system) with its products distributed to its outlets through Living Stream Ministry. So get over yourself. How is that spiritual?

[masta100]

By the way, it was on page 59 NOT 49. You're the one that is WRONG and I was right the first time. Go check it and realize that you make mistake brotha. Nobody is perfect right? =D

I think Watchman Nee believed that John Calvin was regenerated Plain and Simple.

I have 66 books on Watchman Nee and he was not "just mentioning some popular people in Christendom for specific aspects of their teaching." Nobodies teachings are PERFECT. No man can ever have the FULL knowledge of God. We all see the glass darkly.

You just tried to correct me and YOU absolutely believed that you were right. That's why you said "By the way, that was page 49, not page 59." you see....nobody is perfect. John Calvin believed what he believed and lived absolutely for God. So did Witness Lee. If they missed out on something or wrongly believed something then it was because of their lack of understanding not because of intently trying to teach false things.


What do you mean by "believe in Christ to be regenerated"??? Can you please explain this because I don't have a clear understanding of this.

[Churchwork]

I am looking at Church and the Work: Assembly Life (white cover, CFP, 1982). It's on page 49 not 59. Internet copies don't count for there are several different types, nor do versions of these materials from your cult count. CFP said they published their material first and LSM made copies afterward and changed the words around. Often they added 20-30% more words for commercial purposes.

Yes, based on OSAS Nee thought Calvin was saved, but he didn't agree with Calvin's 4 teachings (or even make comments about the false kind of OSAS in Calvinism) and did not consider this could be because he was unsaved which is the only possible explanation, since salvation is not by assuming regeneration that forces you to repent and believe. That would make God an evil tyrant. Where is true repentance and faith in that? Nee was also forgiving to gibberish babblers, but he denounced them in God's Work referring to their behavior as baby and kindergarten talk.

When Nee talks about Luther or Calvin, he of course rejects their way of salvation because Nee is OSAS Arminian, but when talking about these men he is only using them to favor OSAS rather than non-OSAS. Try to understand. Don't judge Nee for not realizing these men were unsaved. I don't. We should be judged by that which we know, not that which we don't know. There is not justification for holding onto a lie, a false salvation and making excuses for them and yourself by claiming you are seeing through the glass darkly. No! There is only one way to be saved which is to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Stop fighting it. There is no other way given in Scripture.

Calvin came so close to God and so did Lee, I don't deny that, but sadly they did not enter the doorway of salvation. They "drew back unto perdition" (Heb. 10.39). So much grace was given yet they drew back. What great judgment and suffering they will have to endure in Hell for eternity! The punishment of those who were given so much yet still denied God's way of salvation will experience Hell in worse ways than someone who rejects God and never heard of Jesus Christ. Witness Lee worshiped the god of modalism, deification, screamers, suing Christians for faith, Total depravity and altering Nee's writings. Calvin believed in infant baptismal regeneration which was not his choice he alleges, amillennialism and adjudicating faith by the secular sword by killing many OSAS Arminians, Anabaptists and others. Believer's baptism is after new birth, not before. You may spend an eternity in Hell with these individuals, but I am glad I won't have to. Thank you Jesus! Though there can be some Calvinists who are unsure of their idea yet may be saved, most Calvinists are not born-again. It is their ideas that are so foreign to God's word and the Spirit of truth, you know they are not brothers and sisters in Christ. They may even truly believe what they teach, but they are still children of wrath.

Regeneration is new birth, born-again, given a new spirit and for the Holy Spirit to indwell. This is initial salvation. In order to be born-again, you must by the grace of God repent and believe. Whereas Calvinists tell you they never did, but simply assumed they were regenerated like the Aryan race under Hitler were born that way, and the Jews were born for the gas chambers. That's Calvinism. Hitler could not have achieved what he did if it was not for Calvinism. May you learn this fact one day not in your head, but in your spirit. That you ask me what does it mean to "believe in Christ to be regenerated?" tells me you are not saved in addition to all your contentions and poisoned spirit of dissension to try to self-exalt yourself in your disillusionment with things. That's why you defend unsaved men for you are like them. It's very liberal.

[masta100]

You know what, I'm a young christian that is seeking truth. I believe in God with all my heart. I am willing to to die for God right now. Although it's been only 2 and a half years into my Christian life, I can honestly say that I have grown and lived for Jesus everyday. But as far as understanding doctrines, teachings, and practice's one group (denominations) do, I don't understand. It's confusing. There is so many confusing aspect in a christian life right from the start (I'm talking about divisions).

One person can say "Come to my Church" oh " don't go to that Church" I don't know where to go. Some people say one thing while others say this. First of all, it's hard to even find genuine christians nowadays. If I do find some, they have their own belief about certain doctrines or practices. And I might come across another just as strong of a belief as the other brother or myself, but they say a totally different thing. Even you and Doug perry and Watchman Nee, John Calvin, Witness Lee, everybody has their own way of understanding things. I believe they all LOVE God just as much as I do. Right now, I'm looking for answers and seeking understanding. So rather you believe I'm going to hell, it's absolutely ridicious. ( How dare you say that I'm going to hell. You don't even know me. Quilt frankly, I think you use that phrase TOO MUCH and TOO LOOSELY, BE WARNED!!!) You thought I was defending Witness lee and Calvin, but you misunderstood. I'm not here to defend these people like WItness Lee or John Calvin. I was just trying to make a point and prove you wrong on two things. First, Watchman Nee believed that John Calvin WAS regenerated. 2ndly, that you were wrong about the page number. (YOu try to correct people ALL THE TIME, and that's your Problem). I read that book from your website on the internet and you tried to CORRECT me once again and BAM you realized that the page numbers are different when one reads it from a different resource. Nobody was wrong in this case. There is a lesson to be learned here. You tried to correct me when you could have just let it go without making a big deal about it. You see, you matter what you say, I know that Watchman Nee believed John Calvin was saved. Rather you don't agree with that has nothing to do with that fact.

I learned to turn away to Jesus. Although these people have differences, we all have one thing in common and that's believing in Jesus as Lord.

So, rather you're right or I'm right (even in regards to the page number 49 or 59) We should just try to understand each other. And that sometimes because of the different background, era, location, they can believe in something and believe it's SO RIGHT. Yet, they might not be "right". But One thing is God will Judge the heart and the intentions of their motives. Even the brothers mentioned above.

[masta100]

Also, you keep trying to expose Witness Lee's cult and my afflication with them. First of all, I don't agree with this group. They are just as divisive as any other groups out there. They are a denomination, but not a Cult in my opinion. I don't belong to the Lord's Recovery. You got it ALL wrong AGAIN brother. I've been to many "churches" and the Lord's Recovery is just one of the few. Although I do have fellowship with them just like I have fellowship with others from different groups, I'm not in this box. I don';t agree with Witness Lee and the LSM. I discearn what I can learn from them and what to ignore. Again, I am not in the Lord's Recovery!!!

I told you, right now I'm seeking truth in the "church" Seeking fellowship. To be one body. I need to learn about the bible. I am hungry for wisdom and knowledge. That's why I am in this forum and actively seeking help.

STOP MISUNDERSTANDING ME.

You obviously aren't perfect so don't trust in yourself too much.

Let me ask you something, besides the internet thingy you do. Where do you go to have fellowship and build the body of Christ. To help edify and teach others (church life).....where do you go? How do you do it? What do you guys do during that time?

And one more question. Have you ever spoke in tongue???/ DO you have the gift of tongue???? Please answer it as simply as possible.

Thanks.

[Churchwork]

Jesus spoke on Hell more than anyone. Are you accusing Him too? What I see in you is that you fellowship with cult members, you condone gibberish babble and you are an ecumenicalist. Surely not even God could save as many people as you claim are saved.

Just because Watchman Nee thought Calvin was regenerated, doesn't mean he was, nor does it mean Nee agrees with Calvin on any points of Calvinism, for Nee was OSAS Arminian. Nee could have questioned Calvin's salvation since they were diabolically opposite one another in so many ways. What Nee was agreeing with Calvin about and giving him the benefit of the doubt in being saved was that a person can't lose their salvation. Very generous but nonetheless wrong. Alas, I am repeating myself and you are not listening. Nor did Nee agree with Calvin's amillennialism and infant baptismal regeneration. Calvin never made a choice for Christ and he admits it. Are you a Calvinist too?

Do you see how you are misrepresenting me? You're arguing a false claim by saying I said Nee said Calvin was unsaved. I never said that. You also said I said you are going to Hell, but where did I directly say that? What I am seeing is problems in your faith and even questioning your salvation, bu not directly saying you are going to Hell. I have listed those false teachings of yours here throughout and behavior patterns and assumptions you cling to that are just not right!

Since you didn't give the page number to the book but from another source, you should have clarified, because people will naturally go to the book. You shouldn't expect people to be mind readers. Try to be more considerate and conscientious as Christ is. Otherwise you create confusion.

Your ecumenicalism claiming so many people are saved seems quite cavalier despite their worshiping not the Trinity. They claim they will be God. They say they were made to believe in their Christ when it wasn't their choice and others were denied sufficient grace to have the choice. How is this really any different than Hitler sending the Jews the gas chambers from birth and declaring the Aryan race his people? Plus you are promoting gibberish babble, but there are no verses in Scripture for your theory.

You said you don't agree with the Witness Lee group, yet you said you "do have fellowship with them." Sounds like a contradiction. God will judge you whom you associate with.

Wherever 2 or 3 are gathered in His name, there is the church. You keep asking who to trust, but why don't you just read the Bible? Trust in Jesus and His word. You're misrepresenting what the Church is. It is not this denomination or that as you keep searching for something. The church in your locality is all the believers in that locality. Your "church hopping" is not the answer. Read your Bible! All that time you wasted church hopping, you could have been reading God's word and developing your relationship with Him. You would come to realize gibberish babble is a false teaching and so are modalism, deification, shouters, totality, suing for faith and all 5 points of Calvinism.

You said you fellowship with several different groups even though their teachings can be quite different. That to me sounds like you are not grounded in God's word. Would you fellowship with these types also in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFZVGOrnAyg&NR=1)?

Since you didn't show I misunderstood you, then realize what you are doing. You have some false behavior patterns and false teachings in your heart you don't want to let go of. You are not abiding in your own words not to trust yourself so much. You're quick to judge others, but you don't have any humility yourself. My prayer is for your repentance to receive the word of God with a humble heart.