Serious Implications if God is Proven to Exist in Christ

[Churchwork]

I do believe there is something out there, but I don't know what it is. I also feel there is no way of knowing without passing from this life. I also firmly believe that the Bible is not the word of God but only the word of man. This goes for any other holy scripture in exsitence. I do respect others beliefs and normally wouldn't go out of my way to debate that.

A personal God who reveals Himself in His creation is far better that one who doesn't. But where does He reveal Himself? Did He give us a sure fire proof? Of course.

Paul said in 1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1 & 2 he met with Peter, James and John who told him they had seen Jesus alive from the dead physically and Paul replied, he had seen Jesus also alive from the dead though not physically (since Jesus had been taken up at that time).

They testified they had seen the risen Lord in various different group settings (12 groups mentioned in Scripture) and the church fathers document the martyrdom of the original Apostles.

How is this a proof? Just because Jesus said the proof would be the sign of Jonah in the belly of a whale for 3 days and He would tear down His temple and raise it on the 3rd day, this is not enough. He actually has to prove it. How?

If the Apostles were lying, how do you explain they went to their deaths as martyrs for the claim seeing Jesus resurrected, for people don't die for something they know is a lie and it was not based on a belief, but their eyewitnessing Jesus resurrected.

Could group hallucinations account for the appearances? Since there are no cases in history of group hallucinations and modern psychology doesn't have any documented cases then it appears since we can find no naturalistic explanation, Jesus must be God as proven by His resurrection.

That has serious implications, don't you think?

[Churchwork]

No He didn't. If he did, things such as this would not be in dispute. An apple is red, that cannot be disputed. The exsistence of God, let alone a specific God, can.

Some people are blind and don't know the color red so that destroys your theory. Some people in some far off land may have been taught red is really green. You can't have a relationship with an apple, but with God you can and He wants a relationship. A relationship can't happen if you are unwilling, nor can it happen if you don't have free will. So if God forces everyone to have a relationship with Him then it is not free will nor a genuine relationship. For those who don't want a relationship with Him, Hell lets them spend an eternity in Hell.


Yes, Paul said, not God, Paul. Paul is but a man, and all the books in the Bible are written by men, not God.

All the books are written by God through men. But you don't need to worry about the inerrancy in order to determine if Jesus is God. All you need do is realize you still can't find a naturalistic explanation to explain away Paul's testimony with the other Apostles seeing Jesus resurrected in multiple different group settings.


This sounds more so along the lines of group think.
"Hey! I saw Jesus!"
"Me too! What about you Paul?"
"Er... yeah... of course I did... who hasn't."
Not to mention, how does one see something but not physically? This feat is truly mind boggling. I'm currently trying to see something in my living room from my bedroom but it's pretty hard.

It's not group think, but eyewitness think. They truly believed they saw him resurrection together physically. Remember, people don't go their deaths for what they know is a lie. The tomb was empty. Take James, the brother of Jesus, who never accepted Jesus was God when they were growing up together and even when Jesus was performing miracles. It was only when he saw Him resurrected he gave into the fact. Paul, an outsider skeptic, was going places in Judaism, moving up the ranks with high standing and credentials. By seeing Jesus resurrected, he was converted.

People have visions all the time. Paul had a vision in broad day light and it was so powerful, the people that were with him fell down to the ground and heard the same voice, but didn't understand. Since such things happen to people today, it's not that surprising. What is really miraculous to me is the multiple attestation of seeing Jesus resurrected by the Apostles, the women, and other disciples in various different group settings. Naturalistically this is impossible, which is how we know Jesus is God and was done supernaturally. You haven't been able to explain away the data.


By coming on national television, anouncing he is God, then proceed to preform an amazing feat that only the power of God could manage so we have indisputable evidence that He is God for the rest of time so we can end all this bloody arguing and get on with the means of progression.

How do you know you would accept it? For example, what would you accept? What miracle? He already resurrected and you didn't accept that or the proof He gives? I know that God said He is obvious to all of us and the only reason we don't accept Him is because of our selfishness.


Yes, and I'm sure that the Koran is full of martyrs as well. You'd also be surprised what people will die for. A Klondike Bar for example. The Apostles died for what they thought they knew as fact, this is where the word "faith" comes into play. They perhaps didn't know the truth or misconstrued what they saw as the truth, but they believed so strongly in this that they were willing to die for it. They're are pleanty of people willing to die for their beliefs, like freedom, equality, justice. But just because they die for what they believe doesn't mean that it is right. Terrorist bombers die for what they believe is right, some Nazis believed what they were doing was good and improving the world.

The martyrs for the Koran don't die for something they saw but for what they believe. Do you see the difference?

What you are suggesting is group hallucinations, but modern psychology says group hallucinations are impossible. Therefore, you have not been able to come up with a naturalistic explanation to explain away the data. That strengthens my faith in Christ.


I never said they were hallucinating.

Since they were not hallucinating then what else can account for them truly believing in His resurrection they saw, ate with, talked with, touched, and walked with the person they had spent 3 years with in His ministry and confirmed His death on the cross?


Maybe one of them was hallucinating and the rest agreed that they saw him. Group think.

But that's not their testimony. James, Peter and John told Paul they had seen Jesus alive from the dead and talked with Him and touched Him. John documents this in John. Peter in Peter, James in James, etc. Even doubting Thomas, the women and the other disciples in various different group settings admitted it and died for the claim they saw Him resurrected. People don't die for something they know is a lie.

Remember, this is not a belief in what others say but first hand eyewitness accounts in 12 different group settings (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/12groups.htm).

The implications are an eternity in with God and the Lamb in the New City or your eternal separation in Hell.