Romans 9 - Free-Will

[Churchwork]

Uh, again, you are giving me pure opinions. You did not tell me where my analysis was wrong. You did not even go through the text. You keep saying that

"We can easily conclude what God decided for Jacob and Esau was based on foreknowledge, because God provides sufficient grace for all to give everyone the choice even you. "

So this is what you affirm:" What God decided for Jacob and Esau was based on foreknowledge"

Your substantiation? "Because God provides sufficient grace for all to give everyone the choice, even you".

Where do you get that from? Romans 9:11-18 ? NO. You cannot find that God loves Esau because of God's Foreknowledge in that passage. You cannot find that. Tell me where you read that? where do you get that interpretation for? In fact, if you continue to read Romans 9, you will see that God prepares vessels for destruction, and vessels for glory. You just dont like that, because your will untouched, same old rebelious condition that man fell into. This logic, makes so much more sense than yours, AND, it has biblical foudations, not alike your Molinist view.

Listen pal, unless you prove from the text, from Scripture, and not twisting single verses that you think prove your point, that Molinism is valid, or Arminianism is valid, I will not go against what I can clearly see, ANDARE ABLE TO PROVE, from the text. All you have are traditions and opinions, no exegetical analysis provided that supports your view. Am I supposed to believe what you tell me because... thats what YOU believe? NO. Historically it has been Reformed Theology the core belief of Christians. You are just trying to make God more appealing to fill your church with false converts.

This is where I stand. I proved to you Unconditional Election with the Biblical analysis of Romans 9:11-18, All you did was quote for me single line verses without any context, without any analysis, and without any fundaments. I dont refuse to repent. I praise the Lord because He has enabled me to repent, and have faith through His Grace, something I could NOT do before since my will was a SLAVE, not a friend or just a bit submissive, but a SLAVE to sin. Salvation is ALL of the Lord, and NONE of human's "free" will.

If you are able to provide an intellectualy honest analysis of Romans 9:11-18, that contradicts my previous analysis, then we can continue to discuss, but until you do that, this discussion is nonsense, since all you do is spew your opinion and hopes of what you would like Scripture to mean.

Where your analysis is essentially wrong is Rom. 9 discloses certainly God foreknew Jacob and Esau, but doesn't say how. How? By foreknowing their free-choice and not irresistible coercion, the characteristic of an evil tyrant which is the god you worship, because man loves evil, so you worship an evil god even Satan. If you can find no verses for irresistible coercion then you are just reading into the text God made in your image.

Think of it this way. God has prepared for destruction the Calvinist. How? Why? Because you refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Who are you o man to fight this? Since you can still find no evidence in Romans 9 of irresistible grace rather than God affording them the choice and that is why God decided while they were still in the womb, then realize you worship Satan.

God enables anyone to repent whosoever is willing. He has not enabled you to repent, because you don't want to be saved His way. Your way is where you can think like you are Hitler's Aryan race and just caused to be that way where others like the Jews belong in the gas chamber. Don't you have a conscience to see how evil this is? Will God have to harden your heart further like He did to the Pharaoh until accept His way? A will that is enslaved is not a will that can't help an old lady across the street or accept what Jesus did on the cross for you. Do you see how you jump to the conclusion slavery means total depravity even though it doesn't. Salvation is all of the Lord, and not your will, but that doesn't mean God doesn't require your free-will choice to receive His free gift and offer of salvation. God does the saving. Your will does not do the saving, but your will made in God's image is the condition God sets forth for the saving.

All one needs to do is show that if Romans 9 can not conclude either way whether God saves irresistibly or provides the choice, then you you must look to other chapters. Scripture as a whole can show other verses where God doe provide the choice to disprove Calvinism, such as the 4000 cases of free will in Scripture. Do you see how illogical it is to assume into the text one way or another to render your conclusion while overlooking all the other verses which speak of free-will? You don't let evidence be your guide by the Spirit of Truth!

You're doing what all cults do. For example, Mormons make the Godhead multiple beings because of twisting God's 3 Persons in Scripture and can even rationalize it by saying "One" means One Godhead of many beings. He is no longer then a singular Triune personal God. But this approach is easily disprove when you realize there can only be one uncreated Creator not multiple uncreated beings. You would have to ask where do these others gods come from if there is more than one uncreated Creator? There is no basis for adding on gods. Likewise, in Calvinism, you assume into the text irresistible coercion in a chapter that doesn't specify one way or another, but there are tonnes of other chapters that speak on free-will, e.g. Jesus says, "come to me...you may take of the water of life freely." Pray on this. And may you come to Christ to be saved one day, God willing.

"They are the people of Israel, chosen to be God's special children. God revealed his glory to them. He made covenants with them and gave his law to them. They have the privilege of worshiping him and receiving his wonderful promises...Well then, has God failed to fulfill his promise to the Jews? No, for not everyone born into a Jewish family is truly a Jew!" (Rom. 9.4,6) Why has God not failed? Because though all Israel is given sufficient grace and all should be saved, not all are saved because some refuse by their own free-will.

"So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy" (Rom. 9.16). I think you are misunderstanding this verse. To willeth is like the new age approach if you just will it into being it will come to be. That is not the same thing is choosing. Runneth is certainly works, even hard works. So you can't work for it or will it into being, but that doesn't take away from the free-choice God has afforded you. Do you see? Read the Scriptures with the Spirit, not by the flesh. He hardened the heart of the Pharaoh because the Pharaoh hardened his own heart first. God chooses whom to enact His mercy and grace upon in this way though never takes away from providing sufficient grace for all.

You complain to God why has He made you this way that you have to choose? so you choose your own way and assume regeneration before repentance and faith. Choosing is not that hard. Just do it. God has given you the grace to be able to do so. Why are you not His people? Because you refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Like Israel, God has given you immense grace, but you still refuse to come to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive Him as your Lord and Savior.

"Though the people of Israel are as numerous as the sand on the seashore, only a small number will be saved...Well then, what shall we say about these things? Just this: The Gentiles have been made right with God by faith, even though they were not seeking him" (Rom. 9.27,30). Even though you are not seeking God of the Bible but the god of Calvinism, you too can be saved by faith through repentance if you are willing. "But the Jews, who tried so hard to get right with God by keeping the law, never succeeded" (v.31).

You try to so hard to "persevere" because you don't know if you are saved since according to you it was not your choice in the law you make unto yourself "instead of depending on faith" (v.32); faith is a free gift you may receive from God (and obtain freely) if you come to Him with an honest heart. You have "stumbled over a great rock in their path" (v.32). That Rock is Jesus who you went right past Who died for the sins of the whole world even you. But if you were to "believe in Jesus you won't be disappointed" (v.33).

[Churchwork]

Re: Fisher http://epagonizesthai.blogspot.com/2009/07/romans-9-and-emotionalistic-synergists.html

Anyway, his denial of irresistible coercion runs afoul of the text alread, particularly in the sections where it says God has mercy on whom he desires and hardens whom he desires (Romans 9:18 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Romans%209.18)). The rest of the text corroborates this when it talks about how the potter has a right to do what He wants with the clay. Anybody wanna point out to me where the text supports synergistic decisional election? I don't see it, so maybe it's actually him who is reading into the text.
Mercy upon whom God has mercy is not a claim of no mercy, but amount of mercy and never lack of sufficient grace for all. In verse 17 Paul is talking about the Pharaoh, but we know the Pharaoh hardened his own heart first. Likewise the Potter does what He wants with the clay but not unrighteously, so don't be mad at God because you have to repent and believe in Him so that saving grace can come upon you. It is best to be humble and not assume into the text more than is there. Romans 9 is talking about how God chose Israel as a nation and that you should not complain about this, and even "not everyone born into a Jewish family is truly a Jew!" (Rom. 9.6) For many are of the family of Ishmael or many Jews themselves reject Christ. This fact doesn't mean some people lacked grace, either common or special grace and thus predestinated to Hell without any recourse. Hence, we can't find verses for either Total depravity or irresistible grace in Romans 9 forcing salvation on some and denying opportunity for others.


It's pretty presumptous of this person to think that Calvinists refuse to repent and believe in Christ, or worship Satan for that matter (where does he get this stuff?). Once again, you can plainly see who is reading into the text when he says verse 19 talks about man's free decisions. That is nowhere stated or even implied in the text. Remember, man in his natural state is a slave to sin. His heart is naturally inclined towards the things of this world (Romans 8:5-8 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Romans%208.5-8)), and will continue in that state unless God changes the man's heart (Ezekiel 36:26 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Ezekiel%2036.26)).
There is no assumption, for the Calvinist admits he assumed regeneration which forced him to repent and believe. Christians and the Bible don't considered forced repentance to be true repentance nor forced belief to be true belief. This, of course, is evil tyrannical-ism. Nowhere in the text do we find irresistible coercion: "Well then, you might say, 'Why does God blame people for not listening? Haven't they simply done what he made them do?'" (v.19). The Calvinist who does not listen accuses God, "Why God do you blame me for haven't you made me Totally depraved?" or "God, why do you send people to Hell without any opportunity to be saved?" Little does the Calvinist realize such an accusation is unfounded, because God does provide sufficient grace to people to have the choice. Therefore, remember nobody is Totally depraved. Romans 9 is about the grace God gave to Israel to be the center of all nations, not about individual salvation so it is taken entirely out of context when the Calvinist tries to impose upon it forced regeneration without prior repentance and faith in Christ. That is not what it is talking about.

Alway remember, being a slave to sin and inclination to things of the world is propensity to sin, not Total depravity. Total depravity is a pompous and pride-filled idolatry. Divert from things of the world to things of God (Rom. 8.5-8) and so shall you be saved. The new heart God gives unto regeneration in Ez. 36.26 is not given to everyone, for not everyone receives God's provision or enabling sufficient grace for salvation.


More emotionalism. Yes, an enslaved will cannot accept Jesus by itself:

There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, there is not even one.
(Romans 3:10-12 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Romans%203.10-12))
There you go, folks. There is none who seeks for God, all have turned aside. In light of this, how can one say that salvation is received through an act of autonomous free-will? Biblically speaking, Jesus Christ has made it clear that one cannot come to Him unless one is drawn by the Father:

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
(John 6:44 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/John%206.44))

For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.
(John 6:65 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/John%206.65))
The apostle Paul also affirms this when he writes to the Thessalonians:

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.(2 Thessalonians 2:13 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/2%20Thessalonians%202.13))

It's not emotionalisim that God gives you the choice, but His divine plan. That which is propensity never should be construed as Total. I am glad your emotion has been impacted, but let God reach down deeper into your spirit's conscience.

None righteous and none do good is expression of our state of being under sin and death. It is not saying you can't help an old lady across the street or receiving God's mercy and offer of salvation on the cross. If Jesus didn't die on the cross then you would have no way of being saved certainly, but He did die for you even though you still reject Him.

That no one can come to God unless God draws is the fact of His work in providing sufficient grace, but notice not all drawn come to Christ, for some "draw back unto perdition" (Heb. 10.39). Why do you keep avoiding this point? Likewise, no one can come to the Father unless He is drawn, granted and given to be able to do so. Sadly so many could have come and could have been granted but they drew back unto perdition as almost all Calvinists do.

Notice what Paul said, nobody is chosen from the beginning except by sanctification and "belief in the truth" in which belief is not a work, nor is it irresistibly imposed, but is available to all to obtain the gift of faith. "We have also obtained access by faith into this grace" (Rom. 5.2), "for by grace are ye saved through faith" (Eph. 2.8).

God will continue to plead for your salvation and everyone's salvation not in vain, because Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the whole world, not just the elect.


4000 cases of free will? Really? I did a search on the term "free-will," and the term only occurs in the context of "free-will offerings." I also did a search on "choose" and "choice," and most of the passages refer to God choosing, rather than man. Especially prominent are Jesus' words to His disciples:

You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you
(John 15:16 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/John%2015.16))

And finally, I did a search for "decision," and failed to find any instances of synergistic regeneration. In fact, I found quite the opposite:
The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD.
(Proverbs 16:33 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Proverbs%2016.33))
I love Proverbs 16. It contains some passages that simply cannot be squared with the Arminian position. In addition to verse 33 quoted above, there are also these two little gems:

The plans of the heart belong to man, But the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.
(Proverbs 16:1 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Proverbs%2016.1))

The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.
(Proverbs 16:9 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Proverbs%2016.9))

Yes 4000 cases. Dave Hunt has done the work in his book, What Love is This? Calvinism Misrepresentation of God of the Bible.

Again the question must be asked how does God choose a person? Every decision of the Lord provides man all his own free-choices. God sets the paramaters, but it is still man's free-will to receive the cross or to not receive what Jesus did. All God's grace upon man is sufficient for man to have the choice which is why God pleads for all men and not just some men.

Does God offer us salvation when He says "come unto me" (Matt. 11.28) because we have free-will: "whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely" (Rev. 22.17)? Are faith and works contrasted as opposites? "By grace are ye saved, through faith;...not of works" (Eph. 2.8-9); "But to him that worketh not, but believeth..." (Rom. 4.5). Christ repeatedly gave such invitations as "Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matt. 11.28), and "If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink" (John 7.37).

So remember, the "plans" of man are his works, but works are contrasted with choice or faith. The Lord is in control of all man's steps but that does not mean man is prevented from having the choice. Hence, "free-will offerings" and other expressions of a synergistic relationship that can only occur with man having his own sovereign free-will. A robot does not come out of the womb anymore than an idol in Calvinism causes you to do something against your will.


Comparing Calvinists to Mormons is just low. Really below the belt tactics he has there. The poster here is comparing apples and oranges. Quoting Revelation 22:17 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Revelation%2022.17) doesn't help his cause either, since "freely" is a very misleading translation (it comes from the NLT, which is not exactly the best translation to use when trying to exegete scripture). The word there is δωρεάν, which literally translates to "gratuitously." So obviously, the passage has nothing to do with decisional regeneration, and the only way you can read the passage that way is if you've presupposed that everyone is capable of coming to Christ (which is sheer Pelagianism, and is flatly contradicted by the scriptures just mentioned). The best translation of that passage would be the NASB's, which states let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
NLT is one of the better translation for today's English. Actually all the Bible versions use "freely" or similar meaning, not just the NLT. Revelation 22 is your Last Warning, the last chapter of the last book of the Bible. What more can God do to convince you?

The KJV reads: "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely" (Rev. 22.17). ASV, RSV, NIV, ESV all agree "freely" or "free gift" which is freely received. "Freely ye received, freely give" (Matt. 10.8). Gratuitously given can be rejected by man just as any "gift."

The Church says to Fisher, Come. If you are hearing me, Come. If you are willing and hunger for the truth, Come. Come freely. How can God be any clearly? You don't need to assume pridefully you are regenerated which you assume further forces you into repentance, belief and salvation. Regeneration is salvation. You need not be afraid to let go of control of the grip you have had on yourself for so long and which you continue to grip desperately through the idea it's not your choice where God has to irresistibly impose it on you like you do upon others in your life.

The decisional regeneration has been set before you which you admit you have not thus done yet. Pelagianism is Calvinism, for think about it. Pelagianism denies the essence of the fall of man, which of course, is not Total depravity, but separation from God and thus needing atonement. Nothing there or in any of the verses discussed indicate Total depravity or Total inability or sufficient grace given to some but not all. Grace is sufficient for all "whosoever believeth" (John 3.16) which is why Jesus pleaded with Nicodemus to believe in Him. The same is true in the Old Testament,

"As surely as I live, says the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of wicked people. I only want them to turn from their wicked ways so they can live. Turn! Turn from your wickedness, O people of Israel! Why should you die?" (Ez. 33.11)

All the Bible versions mentioned are acceptable and all render the same conclusion: Freely ye received, freely give" (Matt. 10.8). What is forced is obviously not freely received.

The subtleties of the deceit of Mormonism is no different than the subtleties of Calvinism, but as we can see both can be shown false. Man gets off in trying to find loopholes in Scripture, but God sees the true intent of their heart.


God has not failed because God's plan was that through Israel's rejection, the gospel came to the Gentiles (Romans 11:11 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Romans%2011.11),25 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Romans%2011.25)). Funny enough, this same passage talks about how the people of Israel's hearts were hardened. So much for refusing by their own free-will.

Romans 9 is talking about rejection, but why were their hearts hardened? Because they refuse to repent and believe. Nothing is said about coercively preventing sufficient grace. Like I said, Romans 9 is not conclusively saying one way or another if salvation is irresistibly imposed or sufficient grace is for all, for there are enough verses and chapters through Scripture that see God pleading with man and for man to repent, because he has been given sufficient grace to have the choice even after God hardens someone's heart because they have turned from Him, e.g. Calvinists receiving far more grace than an atheist and drawn to God but draw back unto perdition. Your Hell will be worse than the Hell of atheists, because it is comparable to the grace given and rejected.



Once again, more eisegesis, more emotionalism. Nowhere in the text does it say that Pharaoh hardened his own heart first. I want to know though: if God gave sufficient grace for all to come to saving faith, why don't all people come to saving faith? Surely Jesus did not lie when He said that all that the Father gives Him will come to Him and and that He will never cast them out (John 6:37 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/John%206.37)).

It's not emotionalism. It's God's mind and His pure conscience. Don't confuse emotion for conscience and righteousness. Indeed the Pharaoh hardened his own heart first and even some Calvinists admit this fact which of course contradicts their own belief system. Calvinists often jump back and forth in confusion due to embarrassment of their teaching.

Even Piper (a calvinist) acknowledged (http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2747&highlight=Pharaoh):

Before the first active assertion of God's hardening in Exodus 9.12 there are two assertions that he [Pharaoh] hardened his own heart [8.15,32] and after 9.12 there are two assertions that he hardened his own heart [9.34,35] [Thus] Pharaoh's "self-hardening" (http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2707&highlight=Pharaoh) is equally well attested before and after the first statement that God has hardened him...." (Emphasis added)
Like clockwork, the Calvinist always comes to the troubling question, Why do some believe in Christ while others don't? Especially, if we all have sufficient grace to be saved. The Christian answer always is: Because we really are sovereign beings with free-will.

God damns the least and saves the most in this world ensemble as described under Molinism, for God selects the optimal number which become the definition of free-will. All people probably could come to saving grace if there were just 4 or 5 people, but with billions of people they don't because they don't get along. But God is unwilling that some should not be created on account of others who refuse His salvation. He is seeking the optimal for the New City which He deems His perfect number of pillars for the New City.

Truly Jesus did not lie when He said all that the Father will give Him will come, just as He said they all must be drawn. But sadly, many "draw back unto perdition" (Heb. 10.39).


"You are not of Him people because you refuse to believe." It's the other way around: You refuse to believe because you are not of Him (John 10:26 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/John%2010.26)).
Read John 10.26 and ask why they are not of His flock? The following verse gives the answer: "My sheep recognize my voice; I know them, and they follow me" (v.27). He knows us because we came to Him and follow Him. Whereas you do not. You assume a regeneration without genuine repentance.

You see, you don't hear His voice when He says, "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" (Rom. 5.18). "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2.4). All men can be saved "whosoever should believeth" (John 3.16) "to the knowledge of truth" and "unto justification of life." This is a parallelism. Same "all men." What child could read it as "all men" of different kinds of men or different classes of men. That is just a plain old fashion twisting on Scripture! Do you see before you repentance is needed for your heretical Mormon teaching?





"Though the people of Israel are as numerous as the sand on the seashore, only a small number will be saved...Well then, what shall we say about these things? Just this: The Gentiles have been made right with God by faith, even though they were not seeking him" (Rom. 9.27 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Rom.%209.27),30 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Rom%209.30)). Even though you are not seeking God of the Bible but the god of Calvinism, you too can be saved by faith through repentance if you are willing. "But the Jews, who tried so hard to get right with God by keeping the law, never succeeded" (v.31).

Simply nonsensical. No comment...

"By faith" is not nonsensical. It is what you refuse to obtain through repentance and belief in Christ unto regeneration. Your works are killing you as you claim "persevering of the saints" trying to rationalize this heresy of an extreme view of depravity of Total inability. It is not only extreme but warped. It is warped because it alters not just the length but the breadth of its meaning; that is to say, Total depravity becomes not just Total but also alters the intent that man is fallen in need of a Coercer rather than a Provider.



Of course Calvinists know and affirm that we depend on faith to be saved. The bible says so (Ephesians 2:8-9 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Ephesians%202.8-9)). However, it makes no sense to say you receive faith "if you come to Him with an honest heart." Why? Simple: Because the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked (Jeremiah 17:9 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Jeremiah%2017.9)). It is also dead in trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Ephesians%202.1)). This is the main reason why we cannot come to Christ unless God removes our heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh. This is the chief flaw in Arminian and Molinist theology: It fails to take into account the fact that the natural man lacks any disposition to do anything good, let alone come to saving faith. For this to happen, God's efficacious grace is necessary to supersede that rejection of Christ with a saving faith in Him.

And THAT, is a biblical view of salvation.

Calvinists don't say they depend on faith to be saved, but insist this faith they speak of is imposed on them because they say that they must be irresistibly regenerated first which will force this faith on them that is not freely given. Anything forced is not free. Eph. 2.8-9 doesn't say anything about irresistibly imposing salvation or faith, but they are free gifts. A free gift is not free if it is forced.

However deceitful the heart may be, it is not Totally depraved. That's because you are made in God's image and don't lose that image just because you are fallen from grace. Your extreme view of depravity is an idol of Total depravity. Something to hang your hat on, but it is in fact what keeps you eternally separated from God, because it says back to God that you are pridefully preselected and others reprobated to Hell without any opportunity whatsoever to have the choice to be saved. Such a view makes your god utterly evil because being born into sin without recourse is an evil imposition like a psychotic parent who keeps her child locked up till they are 40 years old in the basement.

Furthermore, dead in trespasses also doesn't equate to Total depravity. It does equate to separation from God which is why Jesus died on the cross for our sins and the Holy Spirit works upon all His creation to bring in redemption in touching peoples' hearts.

The removal of stony hearts can't come by way of denying some sufficient grace to all to have that removal. The Calvinist exposes himself unsaved time and again when his own conscience can't sense the evil in this, for if it is evil for man made in God's image to act this way, then it is evil for God if that were His actual attitude. How can God's standards be less than man's? Unless the God is false and is just made in the Calvinist's image.

When you come to Christ possibly one day, you will still not be able to do so as you try to do now by your natural man through the selfish doctrines of Calvinism, but it will require you come not by the flesh, but by the image of God graced you with a will that has sufficient grace to be able to do so, thus fulfilling the condition God requires in a synergistic and personal relationship, not a cold, heartless imposing will. Such a will as this is deficient and making up for his own deficiencies and character. The efficacious grace of the One True God is effective for all whosoever is willing unto saving faith.

And that's the Biblical view of salvation! Amen.

[Churchwork]

Re: Fisher http://epagonizesthai.blogspot.com/2009/07/rebuttal-to-churchworkparture.html


First off, I would like to say that I am scandalized by the presumptuous nature by which you assume that anybody who disagrees with you is automatically excluded from salvation. Do you even know who I am? If not, then you do not have any grounds to judge whether a certain brother in Christ is truly saved or not. Remember the words of the apostle Paul: Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand (Romans 14:4 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Romans%2014.4)). I can assure you that I have truly repented of my sins. I have already come to Christ, and I have placed my faith in Him alone for my salvation. Why do you assert otherwise when you do not even know about my relationship with God? This you cannot dispute; you may only look into your own heart, so work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Philippians%202.12)). I have not accused you of being unsaved or reprobate, Parture, so I would like to ask that you refrain from arrogantly assuming whether me, Aldo, Dr. White or any other brother in Christ is truly among the saved or not, as it is not your place to make that assumption.
I don't make the claim of your unsalvation because you are disagreeable vaguely speaking, but that you are unsaved because you refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. You admit as much by saying you were irresistibly regenerated before repenting and believing in the god of Calvinism and others were not given sufficient grace to even have the choice. I do not need to know who you are other than you admit you have refused to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. So you are not saved. For there is no other name under heaven by which one can be saved. Romans 14 is addressing those babes in Christ who have particular naive beliefs, but older brothers and sisters in the faith ought not to make an issue of such things, but let God bring them to understanding in due time. This is not the case with you, of course, for you are a hardened Calvinist for some time now who doesn't want to be saved God's way. True repentance in Christ is not by assuming regeneration that causes you to repent and believe. Not at all. For that would be irresistible coercion and insufficient grace for all to have the choice. You have said enough words in this thread and elsewhere with me to clearly indicate you are worshiping a "false Christ." I cannot deny what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me and proven in Scripture that you are not born-again. Never have I said it is assumed, but God has made it quite clear both you and James White are at this time unsaved, so Jesus says you are "condemned already" (John 3.18).



Now, you make much of much of passages that say salvation is a free gift. And I would gladly say, "Amen to that!" Salvation is offered for free indeed. As a matter of fact, Ephesians 2:8-9 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Ephesians%202.8-9) is actually one of my favourite verses in the entire bible. However, understand what the word δωρεάν, which is translated in most of our bibles as "free," does not mean unimposed, but rather undeserved. If you look at any Greek dictionary, you would know that this word means gratuitously, or without cost [Strong, James. Strong's Greek Dictionary. #G1432]. Our salvation is free because it costs us nothing, for God already paid that cost with His own blood (Acts 20:28 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Acts%2020.28)).

Any gift is unimposed. That is the nature of all gifts. The gift is not a gift if it cannot be received freely. If this is true among people, it is true of God, for how can God's standards be less than ours? It would be imposed unrighteously if it was forced down your throat. A gift undeserved is not mutually exclusive of it being unimposed. You do not deserve the gift because of works, but you may freely receive the gift if you are willing. Just accept plain understanding: "Freely ye received, freely give" (Matt. 10.8).


On that note, you mention John 3:16 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/John%203.16). It is a well-loved verse, and rightly so. Yet once again, you must pay close attention to the meaning of the phrase "whosoever believes." The phrase πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων simply means "everybody who is believing." Nothing in that phrase states or even implies that everybody is capable of such belief.
You're reading into the text and out of context with the chapter as follows. Jesus is pleading with Nicodemus to be saved so He explains the serpent on the pole for all of Israel (John 3.14), not just some classes within Israel that "whosoever believeth" may be saved. In the same way anyone may be saved. "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3.15). As you restrict the meaning of Hebrew words tangentially for your belief system and to fit your theology that does violence to God's word both against context and simple reading of the passage and verse. πᾶς πιστεύω reads as "anyone who trusts in."


Also, you complain about my quotation of Romans 11 and Israel's hearts being hardened, claiming that they chose by their own accord to stray from God's path. And yet, this again is an assumption that is not found in scripture, and is in fact contradicted by it. After all, it is not for no reason that Isaiah asks: Why, O LORD, do You cause us to stray from Your ways And harden our heart from fearing You? (Isaiah 63:17 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Isaiah%2063.17)).
Why? Because of their sin as they choose to sin. The same is true of Romans 11. Otherwise, you make God author of evil. That will never do.


You also deny that those who are chosen by God for salvation have been predestined from the beginning. Once again, your statements run afoul of scripture, for those who have been saved have been chosen before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4 ff (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Ephesians%201.4%20ff)).
I have never denied that those who are chosen by God have been predestinated from the beginning, why bear false witness? For I have always said God "predestinates by foreknowing our free-choice:" God does not predestinate by irresistible coercion as is taught by Calvinism. I was chosen before the foundations of the world; not irresistibly imposed upon, but God provided me sufficient grace as He does you also, but you "draw back unto perdition" (Heb. 10.39).


As for those who draw back unto perdition in Hebrews 10:39 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Hebrews%2010.39), what does this mean? It simply means that there are those who are not truly among those who are saved, and as a result of this fall away or apostatize, for they are the thorny ground that chokes out the seeds of the gospel, as Jesus Christ once said in His parable (Matthew 13:7 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Matthew%2013.7)).
You're missing the point. God draws, yet some draw back so though God draws, people freely choose to draw back because God affords them this choice made in His image. You may say Calvinists have been drawn even further than most, certainly more than most atheists, but they draw back unto perdition and try to choke out the hearts of others (represented by the type of soil) in Matthew 13. The gospel given to you can't penetrate your heart, because it falls on the wayside and birds (like demons) come to pick you up and land on the branches of great Calvinist trees that are unlike God's Church which is a little flock. I sense the demonic possession of Calvinists that all starts with a pride-filled assumption of regeneration without prior genuine repentance and faith which is exalted other who do not engender such overassuming. And that is very sad way to be.



Next, you speak of God's desire to save all, or the whole world. These words speak of unlimited geographic extent. This means "the world" indeed means that those who are saved come from all parts of the world. It is not intended to mean "every single individual who has ever lived without exception." In fact, this interpretation does not even originate from John Calvin, but from Saint Augustine. For example, when he comments on 1 John 2:2 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/1%20John%202.2):

What is this, brethren? Certainly “we have found it in the fields of the woods,” we have found the Church in all nations. Behold, Christ “is the propitiation for our sins; not ours only, but also the sins of the whole world.” Behold, thou hast the Church throughout the whole world; do not follow false justifiers who in truth are cutters off. Be thou in that mountain which hath filled the whole earth: because “Christ is the propitiation for our sins; not only ours, but also the sins of the whole world,” which He hath bought with His blood. [Augustine of Hippo. Homilies on the First Epistle of John.]

Yes it is intended "every single individual who has ever lived without exception" for even one person less is insufficient grace and in terms of eternity, therefore, God of the Bible trumps your god by infinite measures. Augustine came several centuries after the New Testament and many Christians do not deem him any more saved than John Calvin. They both had numerous heretical teachings not the least of which was infant baptismal regeneration and amillennialism. And they both worshiped the god of Calvinism. Jesus bought the sins of not just the elect but of everyone even the non-elect who refuse His grace unto salvation. That is a big God you can trust in. Don't trust in a god that cuts off in the nations because he is either unwilling or impotent to be a big God. Notice as well you can't find any early century believers teaching Calvinism-type stuff.



Fulgentius, the 4th century bishop of Ruspe and contemporary of Augustine, makes the same interpretation in his epistles, where he writes his commentary on 1 Timothy 2:4 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/1%20Timothy%202.4). When he expounds on the meaning of "all," he writes:

All those are predestined whom God desires to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. They are called ‘all’ because they are saved from both sexes, from all kinds, classes, ages and conditions of men. The will of God Almighty is always fulfilled, because his power is never defeated. [Fulgentius of Ruspe. Epistles. 15:15.]

A simple reading of the text disallows this interepretation. Who would have only learned scholars be saved? We must not hold doublestandards. "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" (Rom. 5.18). "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2.4). All men can be saved "whosoever should believeth" (John 3.16) "to the knowledge of truth" and "unto justification of life." This is a parallelism. Same "all men."


And this is true. The God of the bible is not a God who tries and fails, but a God who succeeds and accomplishes what He has in His sovereignty planned out to do. Remember that sovereignty is something that from you ascribe not to the will of man which has been enslaved to sin, but to the all-knowing and all-powerful God who has planned all the days of our lives (Psalm 139:16 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Psalm%20139.16)). As it is written, our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases (Psalm 115:3 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Psalm%20115.3)). See also Isaiah 46:10 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Isaiah%2046.10) and Isaiah 55:11 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Isaiah%2055.11). Unless you can provide biblical support for your idea of the sovereignty of man, my statement stands.
Realize God is not merely trying, for He is in complete control when He goes to His uttermost to provide everyone maximum sufficient grace. But a problem does lie in a god who either claims he can save all and doesn't, or makes this claim fraudulently, or is impotent to have the power to be able to do so. Either way, he is lacking in the immensity and omniscience of God of the Bible. God does not go against His righteous nature. It would not please God to do that. None of these verses suggest man is not sovereign with free-will or that free-will is somehow not real because God provides all our available choices. God made man in His image. You can't make a statement of man's sovereignty more than that.

"Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all were written, in continuance were fashioned, when none of them" (Ps. 139.16) This verse refers to man's sovereign control and infinite monitoring ability, not denial of man's sovereignty under God.

"But our God in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased" (Ps. 115.3) but not against His righteous nature! He would not do something the god of Calvinism would do by sending people to Hell without recourse. What love is this?

"Only I can tell you what is going to happen even before it happens. Everything I plan will come to pass, for I do whatever I wish" (Is. 46.10). That God has infinite foreknowledge does not imply man is not a sovereign being made in God's image. Why read into the text that which is not there?

"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper whereto I sent it" (Is. 55.11). God's divine providence can not be thwarted. How does this deny man's sovereignty under God?

Since the verses you supply suggest nothing to support your case, try again. Better yet, give your life to Christ today! Man remains in God's image and the fall did not change that fact!


Finally, when I commented on your statement as being nonsensical, I never referred to salvation by faith. This we both affirm and agree on. What I disagree on is your assumption that Calvinists worship a God other than the God of the bible. Again, that is false, and you are in no position to make such a judgment on a fellow-Christian.
I cannot deny what the Holy Spirit has freely given me and I freely have received from Him that almost all Calvinists are unsaved, certainly you and James White, Paul Washer and Spurgeon to Augustine and clan. I am not saying you can't glean some words from them sometimes, but most untruths are covered up in a nice veneer. This is not a judgment upon a fellow Christian but a fellow human being made in God's image whom the gospel of salvation has been given to but whom still rejects God's loving word. Does God offer us salvation when He says "come unto me" (Matt. 11.28) because we have free-will: "whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely" (Rev. 22.17)? That would be a strange gospel if to be delivered there was no way you could receive it. Pride fills your heart refusing to heed God's Word to come to Him for the Holy Spirit is not holding you back, only you are.


Understand that this is not an extreme view. I hold to this not out of arrogance or pride, but out of reverent obedience to the words of sacred scripture and to an understanding that we have received a salvation which we neither merit nor deserve, but is offered to us by His own good grace. If you dispute this, fine. But let us go about this disagreement as Christians ought to, and I hope that should you choose to respond to this, you would do so in an attitude of charity of love, which is the true Christian attitude. Of course, if you do not act in a charitable manner, don't be surprised if I refuse to respond to your brazen remarks. Until then, I pray that you have a good day.

Fisher
Your extreme view of depravity is not out of reverent obedience, but arrogance and pride. It is a false humility in an idol in which you self-exalt yourself over others by assuming you were regenerated out of Total depravity where others were not provided this irresistibly coercive grace (Satanic grace). By holding this selfish way of being saved you don't have to genuinely repent to the cross as a helpless sinner but hold some self-proclaimed imposed repentance from an imposed regeneration. You can't merit or deserve salvation (but this is what you are trying to do) by standing on a pedestal and merely assuming your regeneration. You must fulfill the condition God has set forth which is not a works, but faith. Are faith and works contrasted as opposites? "By grace are ye saved, through faith;...not of works" (Eph. 2.8-9); "But to him that worketh not, but believeth..." (Rom. 4.5). Christ repeatedly gave such invitations as "Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matt. 11.28), and "If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink" (John 7.37).

Like the brazen serpent was for all Israel without exception in John 3, so is salvation for you if you are willing. Jesus died for all even you. You must know God will not regenerate you until you repent to the cross as a helpless sinner and receive the the Lord Jesus as Savior. You have not done so, and unless you do God will not save YOU! If you are not saved you will go to Hell. Please don't run away from this conversation, but confess the Lord Jesus before me and others, not the false Christ now that you worship. The God of salvation and eternal life requires your genuine repentance and faith. He'll have it no other way! Amen.