Churchwork
07-01-2009, 05:58 PM
Re: Jesse Morrell
http://www.newenglandoutreach.com/main1.html
jesse@openairoutreach.com
The Doctrine of an Open System
None of the verses you provide below even suggest God does not have infinite foreknowledge. Therefore, God remains omniscient-all knowing!
* God speaks of the future in terms of what may or may not be: Ex. 3:18, 4:9, 13:17; Eze. 12:3
* God changes His plans in response to changing circumstances: Ex. 32:10-14, Jer. 18:1-10
* God's willingness to change His plans is considered one of His glorious attributes: Jonah 4:2; Joel 2:12-13
* God tests people to see what types of decisions they will make: Gen. 22:12; Ex. 16:4; Deut. 8:2, 13:1-3; 2 Chron. 32:31
* God has had disappointments and has regretted how things turned out: Gen. 6:6; 1 Sam. 15:10, 15:35
* God has expected things to happen that didn't come to pass: Isa. 5:1-5; Jer. 3:6-7, 3:19-20
* God gets frustrated and grieved when he attempts to bring individuals into alignment with his will and they resist: Eze. 22:29-31; Isa. 63:10; Eph. 4:30; cf. Heb. 3:8, 3:15, 4:7; Acts 7:51
* The prayers of men have changed the plans of God: Ex. 32:10-14; Num. 11:1-2, 14:12-20, 16:16:20-35; Deut. 9:13-14, 9:18-20, 9:25; 2 Sam. 24:17-25; 1 Kin. 21:27-29; 2 Chron. 12:5-8; Jer. 26:19
* God is said to have repented (changed His mind) multiple times in the Bible: Gen. 6:6-7; Ex. 32:12-14; Num. 23:19; Deut. 32:36; Judges 2:18; 1 Sam. 15:11, 15:29, 15:35; 2 Sam. 24:16; Ps. 90:13, 106:45, 110:4, 135:14; Jer. 4:28, 15:6, 18:8, 18:10, 20:16, 26:3, 26:13, 26:19, 42:10, Eze. 24:14, Hos. 11:8, 13:14; Joel 1:13-14; Amos 7:3, 7:6; Jonah 3:9-10, 4:2; Zach. 8:14
* Prophecies are often God foretelling what He Himself will later bring to pass. So they have to do more with God's omnipotence then His omniscience: Gen. 3:15; 1 Kin. 8:15, 8:20, 8:24, 13:32 (with 2 Kin. 23:1-3, 15-18); 2 Kings 19:25; 2 Chron. 1:9 (1 Chron. 6:4; 10, 15); 2 Chron 36:21-22; Ezra 1:1; Isa. 5:19, 25:1-2, 37:26, 42:9 (with vs. 16); Jer. 29:10, 32:24, 32:28, 33:14-15, Lam. 3:37; Eze. 12:25, 17:24, 33:29, 33:33; Dan. 4:33, 4:37; Acts 3:18, 27:32-35; Rev. 17:17
* Scriptures that say God has a past, present, and a future: Rev. 1:4, 1:8, 4:8
* Scriptures that say God’s eternity is endless time, that is, time without beginning or end: Isa. 9:6-7; Isa. 43:10; Isa. 57:15; Job 36:26; Dan. 4:34; Hab. 1:12 Ps. 23:2; Ps. 90:2; Ps. 102:24; Ps. 102:27; Lk. 1:33; Heb 1:12; Rev 1:4; Rev. 1:8; Rev. 4:8; Rev. 5:14;
* Scriptures that say man's eternity is endless time: Isa. 45:17; Eph. 3:21; Rev. 14:11;
* Scriptures that say eternity is endless time for Heavenly creatures: Rev. 4:8
* Scriptures that say there will be time in Heaven, or a distinction between the past and the present: Rev. 5:12
* Eternity is time without end (endless time instead of timelessness): Isa. 9:6-7; Isa. 43:10; Isa. 57:15; Job 36:26; Dan. 4:34; Hab. 1:12 Ps. 23:2; Ps. 90:2; Ps. 102:24; Ps. 102:27; Lk. 1:33; Heb 1:12; Rev 1:4; Rev. 1:8; Rev. 4:8; Rev. 5:14; Isa. 45:17; Eph. 3:21; Rev. 14:11
The Doctrine of Prophecies
And their Compatibility with Open Theism
Jesse Morrell
FOUR CATEGORIES OF PROPHECIES:
All prophecies fit into one of these four categories.
1. ABSOLUTE PROPHECIES
These are prophecies of events that will inevitably come to pass. This relates to the omnipotence of God to bring about events predetermined by Himself. The matter is completely settled and certain.
Two example would be:
- God will crush the head of Satan:
"And I WILL put enmity between thee and the women, and between thy seed and her seed, and it shall bruise thy head." Gen 3:15
- The end of of the world:
"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times, the things that are not yet done, saying MY COUNSEL shall stand, and I WILL do all MY PLEASURE... I have spoken it, I WILL also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I WILL also do it." Isaiah 46:10-11
2. CONDITIONAL PROPHECIES
These are prophecies of contingent events. They relate to the freewill of men. The matter is completely open and contingent.
Two examples of this would be:
- The repentance of Judah:
"Perhaps they will hear and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent of the evil which I purposed to do unto them because of the evil of their doings." Jer 26:3
- Blessings and wrath contingent upon obedience and disobedience:
"At what instance I shall speak concering a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up and to pull down, and to destroy it; if that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instance I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; if it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them." Jer 18:7-10
3.EXTRAPOLATIVE PROPHECIES
These are prophecies that are predicted, based upon God's exhaustive knowledge of the past and the present. Looking at the pattern of the past and the circumstances of the present, our Infinite God is able to make accurate and detailed predictions of the future behind our own finite comprehension:
Examples of this type would be:
- The future disobedience of Israel
"For when I shall have brought them into the land which I swore unto their fathers, that flows with milk and honey; an they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxen fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break my covenant. And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouth, of their seed: I KNOW THEIR IMAGINATION which they go about, EVEN NOW, before I have brought them into the land which I swore." Deut 31:20-21
- Peters denial:
Mark 8:31-34, Peters heart was revealed that he greatly feared the cross. He rebuked Jesus for talking about crucifixion and the Lord rebuked Peter for His cowardice.
Mat 26:34, Jesus knew Peter’s heart had not changed. And Jesus new all the circumstances Peter would face that night, since Jesus knew the devil was orchestrating Peter’s circumstances (Lk. 22:31), and predicted Peters denial based upon his past pattern, present character, and present/future circumstances.
4. PARALLEL OR ANALOGOUS SCRIPTURE FULFILLMENTS
These are events found in the New Testament, which correlate with events found in the Old Testament. The scriptures used had an original meaning in the Old, yet are applicable to a situation in the New.
Examples would be:
- My Son called out of Egypt:
Hos 11:1 speaking of Israel in the Old Testament.
This is also applied to Jesus in the New Testament, Mat 2:15.
- The betrayal of a trusted friend:
Psa 41:9, David speaking of his trusted friend and counselor Ahithephel.
John 13:18, this is also applied to Jesus and his trusted friend and disciple Judas.
- The replacement of Judas, Acts 1:16:
Acts 1:20, Peter applies two Scriptures to the situation of Judas.
Ps. 69:25, talks about “their habituation” being desolate, but Peter modifies it so say “his habituation”, and “let none dwell in their tents”
Ps. 109:8, David curses his enemies, who treated him wickedly.
WHAT PROPHECIES DO NOT PROVE:
- That the future has already happened
- That God already lives in the future
- That God lives outside of time
- That God has determined everything
- That all events are foreknown as certain
WHAT PROPHECIES DO REVEAL:
- That the future is partly settled by God (absolute prophecies)
- That the future is partly open and contingent (conditional prophecies)
- That the future is partly predictable to the Divine Mind (extrapolative prophecies)
- That the future is repetitive and similar to the past (parallel or analogous prophecies)
None of these verses teach God doesn't have infinite foreknowledge. God “knows all things” (1 John 3.20). Your non-OSAS teaching comes from or is in agreement with the false teaching of Open Theism. All God needs to say is something as simple as He knows every last hair on your head and none shall pluck them out of His hand. This is not the God you worship Jesse which is why you are going to Hell. In order to ensure all is in His complete care, He must be able to see into eternity. That makes God of the Bible all that much more powerful than your god.
"Great is our Lord, and mighty in power; His understanding is infinite" (Ps. 147.5). "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past tracing out!" (Rom. 11.33) "Even the very hairs of your head are all numbered" (Luke 12.7).
Jesse Morrell is not born-again, for he worships a god who is not omniscient. And As Dave Hunt says, it would be "a very strange salvation" if you were given eternal life at new birth and then lost it tomorrow. When the Holy Spirit comes into a believer, He remains there for forever! Praise the Lord! Amen.
CAN SOMEONE LOSE THEIR SALVATION?
Jesse Morrell
FORGIVEN OF PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE??
At conversion, we are not forgiven of all past, present, and future sins. (Or else we would never need to ask God for forgiveness again). But we are forgiven of past sins (Rom 3:25, 2Pet 1:9) while future willful sins are not forgiven (Heb 10:26-31), future sins would need to be dealt with when they come (Matt. 6:12; 1Jn 1:9)
While God grants amnesty, clemency, or pardon through Christ’s blood for our past sins (Rom. 3:25; 2 Pet. 1:9), He does not grant immunity or impunity for future sins (Matt. 18:25-35; Rom. 18:13; Heb. 10:26-31; Jude 1:4). Future sins would need to be forsaken (Lk. 13:3; Jam. 5:19-20) and forgiveness through Christ’s blood would need to be sought for if future sins occur (Matt. 6:12; 1 Jn. 1:9), since you cannot be forgiven of what you haven’t committed, you cannot be forgiven of what you are not guilty of. If we were “forgiven” of all future sins at conversion, this would be a license to sin (Jude 1:4) and we would never have to ask God for forgiveness again. The atonement is designed to make the forgiveness of forsaken sins, past sins, possible. Forgiveness is always conditional upon repentance. Forgiveness is never automatic or unconditional and certainly never granted to the impenitent or unbelieving.
CONTINUE UNTIL THE END
"From that time many of his disciples went back and walked no more with him." Jn. 6:66
"Paul...speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God." Acts 13:43
"Comfirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith..." Acts 14:22
"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Matt. 24:13
"But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house you are, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end." Heb. 3:6
"For we are made partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence unto the end." Heb. 3:14
"Keep yourselves in the love of God..." Jude 1:21
SIN IS A KILLER:
“For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall life.” Romans 8:13
"For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." Rom 11:21-22
“For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.” 2Pet 2:21
ABIDE IN CHRIST VS. SINNING
"Abide in me, and I in you. And the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me, ye can do nothing. If a man abideth not in me, he is cast forth as a branch and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." Jn. 15:4-6
“Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.” Heb 3:12
"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also to walk, even as he walked." 1 Jn. 2:6
"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." 1 Jn. 3:6
"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son." 2 Jn. 1:9
MORE SCRIPTURES FOR CONDITIONAL SECURITY:
Eze. 3:20-21, 18:18-31, 33:12-20; Matt. 6:14-15, 10:22, 24:13, 24:48-51, 25:1-13; Mk. 4:16-19, 13:13; Jn. 6:66, 15:6; Acts 1:25, 11:23, 13:43, 14:22; Rom. 8:13, 11:20-23; 1 Cor. 3:16-17, 6:9-10, 9:27, 10:5-13; 15:1-2; Gal. 5:4-9, 5:19-21, 6:7-9; Col. 1:21-23; 1 Thes. 3:5, 3:8; 2 Thes. 2:3; 1 Tim. 1:5-6; 1:18-20, 3:6, 4:1, 4:16, 5:15; 2 Tim. 2:12, 4:9-10; Heb. 2:1, 2:3, 3:6, 3:8-15, 3:18-19, 4:1, 4:11, 4:14, 6:1, 6:8, 6:11-12, 6:15, 10:23, 10:26-31, 10:35-39, 12:14-15, 12:25; Jas. 1:13-16, 5:19-20; 2 Pet. 1:9, 2:20-22, 3:17; Rev. 2:4-7, 2:10-11, 2:17, 2:25-26, 3:2-5, 3:10-12, 3:16, 3:19, 3:20, 21:8, 22:15
THE UNFORGIVING SERVANT LOST HIS SALVATION:
We have the example of the unforgiving servant who was forgiven of his unpaid debt, but then later had his debt reinstated because of his immoral conduct (Matt. 18:23-35). This parable clearly shows how the Lord can graciously pardon an individual and then later execute the punishment that they deserve
THE APOSTLE JUDAS LOST HIS SALVATION:
Anyone who is a disciple of Jesus Christ is saved. That is because in order to be a disciple of Jesus a person need to forsake everything and follow Him (Luke 14:33), they need to love God more then family (Luke 14:26), they need to pick up their cross and die (Luke 14:27).
Judas was a disciple of Jesus Christ (Matt 10:1). Therefore Judas forsook everything to follow Jesus. Judas loved God more then his own family. Judas picked up his cross and decided to live a crucified life.
Judas was not only a disciple, but Judas was an Apostle who Jesus chose specifically to preach the gospel, heal the sick, and cast out demons (Matt 10:1). That was the mission Jesus picked Judas for.
In fact, scripture says Judas was a friend of Jesus in whom Jesus trusted (Ps 41:9, John 13:18). And that is also evidenced by the fact that Judas was the money keeper (Jn 13:29)
But somewhere down the line Judas became a backslider. Judas began to steal and abuse his position (John 12:6). Judas choose to forsake Jesus and thereby forsake his own salvation.
Jesus Himself said that He lost Judas (Jn 17:12) and Acts 1:25 even said that Judas fell from His apostleship by transgression. Judas failed to accomplish and fulfill His Apostleship, failed to do what Jesus picked him to do - to take the gospel to the world like the rest of the Apostles (Matt 10:1). It would have been better for Judas if he was never born (Matt 26:24)
Jesus was deeply troubled by these new developments in Judas (Jn 13:12) and even expressed surprise that someone he picked would become a devil (Jn 6:70). Nevertheless the Sovereign Lord was able to adopt these new circumstances into His plans (John 13:27). (Sovereignty is not that God causes all things, but that God is able to work with all things, that God can use all things, that God can incorporate all things into His plans. That is the genius of God.
Jesus told Judas that there was a throne in Heaven for him, upon which Judas would sit with the other twelve to judge the tribes of Israel (Matt. 19:28). Jesus told Judas that He was shedding His blood for him (Lk. 22:14-20), and previously told Judas that His name was written in the Lambs book of life (Lk. 10:20). But then later, after having his name written in Heaven, we see that Judas became a devil (Jn. 6:70), and therefore it would have been better for him to have never been born (Mk. 14:21). Judas fell from his Apostleship by his transgression (Acts 1:25) and his name was blotted out of the book of life (Ex. 23:33; Rev. 3:5). So we can see that the atonement does not automatically or unconditionally save anyone. Many of those for whom Christ died will ultimately perish for their sin because they choose to continue in their sin (Heb. 10:26-31) instead of sinning no more. It’s possible to deny the Lord that bought us and thereby fall into condemnation (2 Pet. 2:1). The wrath of God is impartial (Deut. 10:17; Col. 3:26; 2 Pet. 1:17), so anyone who willingly and knowingly sins is under condemnation (Rom. 1:18, 2:6-11) because God must uphold and enforce His Laws as long as He is loving and caring, as long as He hates sin because He’s benevolent.
Judas is a terrible example of how a genuine disciple, even an Apostle, still has a freewill and therefore can backslide into sin, forsake the Lord, abandon the faith (Jn 6:66), and thereby forfeit his salvation, and become cut off (Romans 11:21-22) after being adopted in.
If Judas could lose his salvation (not only a disciple but also an Apostle) then any Christian could lose their salvation.
Therefore let us work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Php 2:12). Let us continue in the love of God (John 15:9). Let us persevere unto the end (Matt 24:13). Let us continue in the faith (Acts 14:22). Let us continue in the grace of God (Acts 13:43).
"Judas was sincere, when Christ chose him to the apostleship." John Fletcher
"Judas was at first a child of the kingdom and heard it said to him with th disciples, 'You shall sit upon twelve thrones' but at last he became a child of hell" St. Chrysostom
"For both Saul and Judas were once good...Sometimes they are at first good, who afterward become and continue evil; and for this respect they are said to be written in the book of life, and blotted out of it." St. Ambrose
All Quotes from: An Equal Check to Pharisaism and Antinomianism by John Fletcher, Volume Two, pg 202, Published by Carlton & Porter
DID JUDAS HAVE SALVATION AND THEN LOSE IT?
*Judas was a disciple of the Lord, and therefore left all to follow Jesus (Lk. 14:33), picked up his cross (Lk. 14:27), who even loved Jesus more then his own parents (Lk. 14:26).
* Judas was picked by Jesus specifically to cast out devils, heal, and preach (Matt 10:1-27).
* Jesus originally trusted Judas (Ps. 41:9; Jn 13:18), so he kept the money (Jn. 12:6; 13:29).
* Jesus told Judas that He was shedding His blood for him (Lk. 22:14-20), and previously said that His name was written in the Lambs book of life (Lk. 10:20).
* Jesus even said that Judas was one of His sheep (Matt 10:1-4, 16).
* Jesus said Judas had received the truth (Matt 10:1-4, 8)
* Jesus said Judas' father was God (Matt 10:1-4, 20)
*Jesus said Judas even had a throne in Heaven upon which he would judge Israel (Matt. 19:28; Lk. 22:30).
* But then later we see that Judas became a devil (Jn. 6:70)
* Therefore it would have been better for him to have never been born (Mk. 14:21).
* He even began to steal money from the group (Jn. 12:6).
* Judas fell from his Apostleship by his transgression (Acts 1:25)
* And therefore his name was blotted out of the book of life (Ex. 23:33; Rev. 3:5).
DID THE UNFORGIVING SERVANT HAVE SALVATION AND THEN LOSE IT?
We have the example of the unforgiving servant who was forgiven of his unpaid debt, but then later had his debt reinstated because of his immoral conduct (Matt. 18:23-35). This parable clearly shows how the Lord can graciously pardon an individual and then later execute the punishment that they deserve.
Other scriptures that teach conditional security: Eze. 3:20-21, 18:18-31, 33:12-20; Matt. 6:14-15, 10:22, 24:13, 24:48-51, 25:1-13; Mk. 4:16-19, 13:13; Jn. 6:66, 15:6; Acts 1:25, 11:23, 13:43, 14:22; Rom. 8:13, 11:20-23; 1 Cor. 3:16-17, 6:9-10, 9:27, 10:5-13; 15:1-2; Gal. 5:4-9, 5:19-21, 6:7-9; Col. 1:21-23; 1 Thes. 3:5, 3:8; 2 Thes. 2:3; 1 Tim. 1:5-6; 1:18-20, 3:6, 4:1, 4:16, 5:15; 2 Tim. 2:12, 4:9-10; Heb. 2:1, 2:3, 3:6, 3:8-15, 3:18-19, 4:1, 4:11, 4:14, 6:1, 6:8, 6:11-12, 6:15, 10:23, 10:26-31, 10:35-39, 12:14-15, 12:25; Jas. 1:13-16, 5:19-20; 2 Pet. 1:9, 2:20-22, 3:17; Rev. 2:4-7, 2:10-11, 2:17, 2:25-26, 3:2-5, 3:10-12, 3:16, 3:19, 3:20, 21:8, 22:15
None of these verses teach a person can lose salvation, that is, initial salvation and eternal life at new birth. Never confuse loss of rewards with loss of life.
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand" (John 10.27-29).
"When our assurance of salvation is based at all on our works, we can never have absolute assurance...! But does Scripture discourage giving objective assurance of salvation? Hardly! On the contrary, the Lord Jesus (John 5.24), Paul (Romans 8.38-39), and John (1 John 5.11-13) have no qualms about offering absolute, objective assurance of salvation. Furthermore, works are never included as a requirement of assurance." Christ guarantees, "him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (John 6.37). I came to Him by faith in His Word so I can never be lost. My assurance is in His promise and keeping power, not in my efforts or performance. He said, "I give unto them [my sheep] eternal life; and they shall never perish" (John 10.28). "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Pet. 1.3-5).
That's a God you can place your trust in. Praise the Lord!
http://www.newenglandoutreach.com/main1.html
jesse@openairoutreach.com
The Doctrine of an Open System
None of the verses you provide below even suggest God does not have infinite foreknowledge. Therefore, God remains omniscient-all knowing!
* God speaks of the future in terms of what may or may not be: Ex. 3:18, 4:9, 13:17; Eze. 12:3
* God changes His plans in response to changing circumstances: Ex. 32:10-14, Jer. 18:1-10
* God's willingness to change His plans is considered one of His glorious attributes: Jonah 4:2; Joel 2:12-13
* God tests people to see what types of decisions they will make: Gen. 22:12; Ex. 16:4; Deut. 8:2, 13:1-3; 2 Chron. 32:31
* God has had disappointments and has regretted how things turned out: Gen. 6:6; 1 Sam. 15:10, 15:35
* God has expected things to happen that didn't come to pass: Isa. 5:1-5; Jer. 3:6-7, 3:19-20
* God gets frustrated and grieved when he attempts to bring individuals into alignment with his will and they resist: Eze. 22:29-31; Isa. 63:10; Eph. 4:30; cf. Heb. 3:8, 3:15, 4:7; Acts 7:51
* The prayers of men have changed the plans of God: Ex. 32:10-14; Num. 11:1-2, 14:12-20, 16:16:20-35; Deut. 9:13-14, 9:18-20, 9:25; 2 Sam. 24:17-25; 1 Kin. 21:27-29; 2 Chron. 12:5-8; Jer. 26:19
* God is said to have repented (changed His mind) multiple times in the Bible: Gen. 6:6-7; Ex. 32:12-14; Num. 23:19; Deut. 32:36; Judges 2:18; 1 Sam. 15:11, 15:29, 15:35; 2 Sam. 24:16; Ps. 90:13, 106:45, 110:4, 135:14; Jer. 4:28, 15:6, 18:8, 18:10, 20:16, 26:3, 26:13, 26:19, 42:10, Eze. 24:14, Hos. 11:8, 13:14; Joel 1:13-14; Amos 7:3, 7:6; Jonah 3:9-10, 4:2; Zach. 8:14
* Prophecies are often God foretelling what He Himself will later bring to pass. So they have to do more with God's omnipotence then His omniscience: Gen. 3:15; 1 Kin. 8:15, 8:20, 8:24, 13:32 (with 2 Kin. 23:1-3, 15-18); 2 Kings 19:25; 2 Chron. 1:9 (1 Chron. 6:4; 10, 15); 2 Chron 36:21-22; Ezra 1:1; Isa. 5:19, 25:1-2, 37:26, 42:9 (with vs. 16); Jer. 29:10, 32:24, 32:28, 33:14-15, Lam. 3:37; Eze. 12:25, 17:24, 33:29, 33:33; Dan. 4:33, 4:37; Acts 3:18, 27:32-35; Rev. 17:17
* Scriptures that say God has a past, present, and a future: Rev. 1:4, 1:8, 4:8
* Scriptures that say God’s eternity is endless time, that is, time without beginning or end: Isa. 9:6-7; Isa. 43:10; Isa. 57:15; Job 36:26; Dan. 4:34; Hab. 1:12 Ps. 23:2; Ps. 90:2; Ps. 102:24; Ps. 102:27; Lk. 1:33; Heb 1:12; Rev 1:4; Rev. 1:8; Rev. 4:8; Rev. 5:14;
* Scriptures that say man's eternity is endless time: Isa. 45:17; Eph. 3:21; Rev. 14:11;
* Scriptures that say eternity is endless time for Heavenly creatures: Rev. 4:8
* Scriptures that say there will be time in Heaven, or a distinction between the past and the present: Rev. 5:12
* Eternity is time without end (endless time instead of timelessness): Isa. 9:6-7; Isa. 43:10; Isa. 57:15; Job 36:26; Dan. 4:34; Hab. 1:12 Ps. 23:2; Ps. 90:2; Ps. 102:24; Ps. 102:27; Lk. 1:33; Heb 1:12; Rev 1:4; Rev. 1:8; Rev. 4:8; Rev. 5:14; Isa. 45:17; Eph. 3:21; Rev. 14:11
The Doctrine of Prophecies
And their Compatibility with Open Theism
Jesse Morrell
FOUR CATEGORIES OF PROPHECIES:
All prophecies fit into one of these four categories.
1. ABSOLUTE PROPHECIES
These are prophecies of events that will inevitably come to pass. This relates to the omnipotence of God to bring about events predetermined by Himself. The matter is completely settled and certain.
Two example would be:
- God will crush the head of Satan:
"And I WILL put enmity between thee and the women, and between thy seed and her seed, and it shall bruise thy head." Gen 3:15
- The end of of the world:
"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times, the things that are not yet done, saying MY COUNSEL shall stand, and I WILL do all MY PLEASURE... I have spoken it, I WILL also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I WILL also do it." Isaiah 46:10-11
2. CONDITIONAL PROPHECIES
These are prophecies of contingent events. They relate to the freewill of men. The matter is completely open and contingent.
Two examples of this would be:
- The repentance of Judah:
"Perhaps they will hear and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent of the evil which I purposed to do unto them because of the evil of their doings." Jer 26:3
- Blessings and wrath contingent upon obedience and disobedience:
"At what instance I shall speak concering a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up and to pull down, and to destroy it; if that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instance I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; if it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them." Jer 18:7-10
3.EXTRAPOLATIVE PROPHECIES
These are prophecies that are predicted, based upon God's exhaustive knowledge of the past and the present. Looking at the pattern of the past and the circumstances of the present, our Infinite God is able to make accurate and detailed predictions of the future behind our own finite comprehension:
Examples of this type would be:
- The future disobedience of Israel
"For when I shall have brought them into the land which I swore unto their fathers, that flows with milk and honey; an they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxen fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break my covenant. And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouth, of their seed: I KNOW THEIR IMAGINATION which they go about, EVEN NOW, before I have brought them into the land which I swore." Deut 31:20-21
- Peters denial:
Mark 8:31-34, Peters heart was revealed that he greatly feared the cross. He rebuked Jesus for talking about crucifixion and the Lord rebuked Peter for His cowardice.
Mat 26:34, Jesus knew Peter’s heart had not changed. And Jesus new all the circumstances Peter would face that night, since Jesus knew the devil was orchestrating Peter’s circumstances (Lk. 22:31), and predicted Peters denial based upon his past pattern, present character, and present/future circumstances.
4. PARALLEL OR ANALOGOUS SCRIPTURE FULFILLMENTS
These are events found in the New Testament, which correlate with events found in the Old Testament. The scriptures used had an original meaning in the Old, yet are applicable to a situation in the New.
Examples would be:
- My Son called out of Egypt:
Hos 11:1 speaking of Israel in the Old Testament.
This is also applied to Jesus in the New Testament, Mat 2:15.
- The betrayal of a trusted friend:
Psa 41:9, David speaking of his trusted friend and counselor Ahithephel.
John 13:18, this is also applied to Jesus and his trusted friend and disciple Judas.
- The replacement of Judas, Acts 1:16:
Acts 1:20, Peter applies two Scriptures to the situation of Judas.
Ps. 69:25, talks about “their habituation” being desolate, but Peter modifies it so say “his habituation”, and “let none dwell in their tents”
Ps. 109:8, David curses his enemies, who treated him wickedly.
WHAT PROPHECIES DO NOT PROVE:
- That the future has already happened
- That God already lives in the future
- That God lives outside of time
- That God has determined everything
- That all events are foreknown as certain
WHAT PROPHECIES DO REVEAL:
- That the future is partly settled by God (absolute prophecies)
- That the future is partly open and contingent (conditional prophecies)
- That the future is partly predictable to the Divine Mind (extrapolative prophecies)
- That the future is repetitive and similar to the past (parallel or analogous prophecies)
None of these verses teach God doesn't have infinite foreknowledge. God “knows all things” (1 John 3.20). Your non-OSAS teaching comes from or is in agreement with the false teaching of Open Theism. All God needs to say is something as simple as He knows every last hair on your head and none shall pluck them out of His hand. This is not the God you worship Jesse which is why you are going to Hell. In order to ensure all is in His complete care, He must be able to see into eternity. That makes God of the Bible all that much more powerful than your god.
"Great is our Lord, and mighty in power; His understanding is infinite" (Ps. 147.5). "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past tracing out!" (Rom. 11.33) "Even the very hairs of your head are all numbered" (Luke 12.7).
Jesse Morrell is not born-again, for he worships a god who is not omniscient. And As Dave Hunt says, it would be "a very strange salvation" if you were given eternal life at new birth and then lost it tomorrow. When the Holy Spirit comes into a believer, He remains there for forever! Praise the Lord! Amen.
CAN SOMEONE LOSE THEIR SALVATION?
Jesse Morrell
FORGIVEN OF PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE??
At conversion, we are not forgiven of all past, present, and future sins. (Or else we would never need to ask God for forgiveness again). But we are forgiven of past sins (Rom 3:25, 2Pet 1:9) while future willful sins are not forgiven (Heb 10:26-31), future sins would need to be dealt with when they come (Matt. 6:12; 1Jn 1:9)
While God grants amnesty, clemency, or pardon through Christ’s blood for our past sins (Rom. 3:25; 2 Pet. 1:9), He does not grant immunity or impunity for future sins (Matt. 18:25-35; Rom. 18:13; Heb. 10:26-31; Jude 1:4). Future sins would need to be forsaken (Lk. 13:3; Jam. 5:19-20) and forgiveness through Christ’s blood would need to be sought for if future sins occur (Matt. 6:12; 1 Jn. 1:9), since you cannot be forgiven of what you haven’t committed, you cannot be forgiven of what you are not guilty of. If we were “forgiven” of all future sins at conversion, this would be a license to sin (Jude 1:4) and we would never have to ask God for forgiveness again. The atonement is designed to make the forgiveness of forsaken sins, past sins, possible. Forgiveness is always conditional upon repentance. Forgiveness is never automatic or unconditional and certainly never granted to the impenitent or unbelieving.
CONTINUE UNTIL THE END
"From that time many of his disciples went back and walked no more with him." Jn. 6:66
"Paul...speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God." Acts 13:43
"Comfirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith..." Acts 14:22
"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Matt. 24:13
"But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house you are, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end." Heb. 3:6
"For we are made partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence unto the end." Heb. 3:14
"Keep yourselves in the love of God..." Jude 1:21
SIN IS A KILLER:
“For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall life.” Romans 8:13
"For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." Rom 11:21-22
“For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.” 2Pet 2:21
ABIDE IN CHRIST VS. SINNING
"Abide in me, and I in you. And the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me, ye can do nothing. If a man abideth not in me, he is cast forth as a branch and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." Jn. 15:4-6
“Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.” Heb 3:12
"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also to walk, even as he walked." 1 Jn. 2:6
"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." 1 Jn. 3:6
"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son." 2 Jn. 1:9
MORE SCRIPTURES FOR CONDITIONAL SECURITY:
Eze. 3:20-21, 18:18-31, 33:12-20; Matt. 6:14-15, 10:22, 24:13, 24:48-51, 25:1-13; Mk. 4:16-19, 13:13; Jn. 6:66, 15:6; Acts 1:25, 11:23, 13:43, 14:22; Rom. 8:13, 11:20-23; 1 Cor. 3:16-17, 6:9-10, 9:27, 10:5-13; 15:1-2; Gal. 5:4-9, 5:19-21, 6:7-9; Col. 1:21-23; 1 Thes. 3:5, 3:8; 2 Thes. 2:3; 1 Tim. 1:5-6; 1:18-20, 3:6, 4:1, 4:16, 5:15; 2 Tim. 2:12, 4:9-10; Heb. 2:1, 2:3, 3:6, 3:8-15, 3:18-19, 4:1, 4:11, 4:14, 6:1, 6:8, 6:11-12, 6:15, 10:23, 10:26-31, 10:35-39, 12:14-15, 12:25; Jas. 1:13-16, 5:19-20; 2 Pet. 1:9, 2:20-22, 3:17; Rev. 2:4-7, 2:10-11, 2:17, 2:25-26, 3:2-5, 3:10-12, 3:16, 3:19, 3:20, 21:8, 22:15
THE UNFORGIVING SERVANT LOST HIS SALVATION:
We have the example of the unforgiving servant who was forgiven of his unpaid debt, but then later had his debt reinstated because of his immoral conduct (Matt. 18:23-35). This parable clearly shows how the Lord can graciously pardon an individual and then later execute the punishment that they deserve
THE APOSTLE JUDAS LOST HIS SALVATION:
Anyone who is a disciple of Jesus Christ is saved. That is because in order to be a disciple of Jesus a person need to forsake everything and follow Him (Luke 14:33), they need to love God more then family (Luke 14:26), they need to pick up their cross and die (Luke 14:27).
Judas was a disciple of Jesus Christ (Matt 10:1). Therefore Judas forsook everything to follow Jesus. Judas loved God more then his own family. Judas picked up his cross and decided to live a crucified life.
Judas was not only a disciple, but Judas was an Apostle who Jesus chose specifically to preach the gospel, heal the sick, and cast out demons (Matt 10:1). That was the mission Jesus picked Judas for.
In fact, scripture says Judas was a friend of Jesus in whom Jesus trusted (Ps 41:9, John 13:18). And that is also evidenced by the fact that Judas was the money keeper (Jn 13:29)
But somewhere down the line Judas became a backslider. Judas began to steal and abuse his position (John 12:6). Judas choose to forsake Jesus and thereby forsake his own salvation.
Jesus Himself said that He lost Judas (Jn 17:12) and Acts 1:25 even said that Judas fell from His apostleship by transgression. Judas failed to accomplish and fulfill His Apostleship, failed to do what Jesus picked him to do - to take the gospel to the world like the rest of the Apostles (Matt 10:1). It would have been better for Judas if he was never born (Matt 26:24)
Jesus was deeply troubled by these new developments in Judas (Jn 13:12) and even expressed surprise that someone he picked would become a devil (Jn 6:70). Nevertheless the Sovereign Lord was able to adopt these new circumstances into His plans (John 13:27). (Sovereignty is not that God causes all things, but that God is able to work with all things, that God can use all things, that God can incorporate all things into His plans. That is the genius of God.
Jesus told Judas that there was a throne in Heaven for him, upon which Judas would sit with the other twelve to judge the tribes of Israel (Matt. 19:28). Jesus told Judas that He was shedding His blood for him (Lk. 22:14-20), and previously told Judas that His name was written in the Lambs book of life (Lk. 10:20). But then later, after having his name written in Heaven, we see that Judas became a devil (Jn. 6:70), and therefore it would have been better for him to have never been born (Mk. 14:21). Judas fell from his Apostleship by his transgression (Acts 1:25) and his name was blotted out of the book of life (Ex. 23:33; Rev. 3:5). So we can see that the atonement does not automatically or unconditionally save anyone. Many of those for whom Christ died will ultimately perish for their sin because they choose to continue in their sin (Heb. 10:26-31) instead of sinning no more. It’s possible to deny the Lord that bought us and thereby fall into condemnation (2 Pet. 2:1). The wrath of God is impartial (Deut. 10:17; Col. 3:26; 2 Pet. 1:17), so anyone who willingly and knowingly sins is under condemnation (Rom. 1:18, 2:6-11) because God must uphold and enforce His Laws as long as He is loving and caring, as long as He hates sin because He’s benevolent.
Judas is a terrible example of how a genuine disciple, even an Apostle, still has a freewill and therefore can backslide into sin, forsake the Lord, abandon the faith (Jn 6:66), and thereby forfeit his salvation, and become cut off (Romans 11:21-22) after being adopted in.
If Judas could lose his salvation (not only a disciple but also an Apostle) then any Christian could lose their salvation.
Therefore let us work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Php 2:12). Let us continue in the love of God (John 15:9). Let us persevere unto the end (Matt 24:13). Let us continue in the faith (Acts 14:22). Let us continue in the grace of God (Acts 13:43).
"Judas was sincere, when Christ chose him to the apostleship." John Fletcher
"Judas was at first a child of the kingdom and heard it said to him with th disciples, 'You shall sit upon twelve thrones' but at last he became a child of hell" St. Chrysostom
"For both Saul and Judas were once good...Sometimes they are at first good, who afterward become and continue evil; and for this respect they are said to be written in the book of life, and blotted out of it." St. Ambrose
All Quotes from: An Equal Check to Pharisaism and Antinomianism by John Fletcher, Volume Two, pg 202, Published by Carlton & Porter
DID JUDAS HAVE SALVATION AND THEN LOSE IT?
*Judas was a disciple of the Lord, and therefore left all to follow Jesus (Lk. 14:33), picked up his cross (Lk. 14:27), who even loved Jesus more then his own parents (Lk. 14:26).
* Judas was picked by Jesus specifically to cast out devils, heal, and preach (Matt 10:1-27).
* Jesus originally trusted Judas (Ps. 41:9; Jn 13:18), so he kept the money (Jn. 12:6; 13:29).
* Jesus told Judas that He was shedding His blood for him (Lk. 22:14-20), and previously said that His name was written in the Lambs book of life (Lk. 10:20).
* Jesus even said that Judas was one of His sheep (Matt 10:1-4, 16).
* Jesus said Judas had received the truth (Matt 10:1-4, 8)
* Jesus said Judas' father was God (Matt 10:1-4, 20)
*Jesus said Judas even had a throne in Heaven upon which he would judge Israel (Matt. 19:28; Lk. 22:30).
* But then later we see that Judas became a devil (Jn. 6:70)
* Therefore it would have been better for him to have never been born (Mk. 14:21).
* He even began to steal money from the group (Jn. 12:6).
* Judas fell from his Apostleship by his transgression (Acts 1:25)
* And therefore his name was blotted out of the book of life (Ex. 23:33; Rev. 3:5).
DID THE UNFORGIVING SERVANT HAVE SALVATION AND THEN LOSE IT?
We have the example of the unforgiving servant who was forgiven of his unpaid debt, but then later had his debt reinstated because of his immoral conduct (Matt. 18:23-35). This parable clearly shows how the Lord can graciously pardon an individual and then later execute the punishment that they deserve.
Other scriptures that teach conditional security: Eze. 3:20-21, 18:18-31, 33:12-20; Matt. 6:14-15, 10:22, 24:13, 24:48-51, 25:1-13; Mk. 4:16-19, 13:13; Jn. 6:66, 15:6; Acts 1:25, 11:23, 13:43, 14:22; Rom. 8:13, 11:20-23; 1 Cor. 3:16-17, 6:9-10, 9:27, 10:5-13; 15:1-2; Gal. 5:4-9, 5:19-21, 6:7-9; Col. 1:21-23; 1 Thes. 3:5, 3:8; 2 Thes. 2:3; 1 Tim. 1:5-6; 1:18-20, 3:6, 4:1, 4:16, 5:15; 2 Tim. 2:12, 4:9-10; Heb. 2:1, 2:3, 3:6, 3:8-15, 3:18-19, 4:1, 4:11, 4:14, 6:1, 6:8, 6:11-12, 6:15, 10:23, 10:26-31, 10:35-39, 12:14-15, 12:25; Jas. 1:13-16, 5:19-20; 2 Pet. 1:9, 2:20-22, 3:17; Rev. 2:4-7, 2:10-11, 2:17, 2:25-26, 3:2-5, 3:10-12, 3:16, 3:19, 3:20, 21:8, 22:15
None of these verses teach a person can lose salvation, that is, initial salvation and eternal life at new birth. Never confuse loss of rewards with loss of life.
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand" (John 10.27-29).
"When our assurance of salvation is based at all on our works, we can never have absolute assurance...! But does Scripture discourage giving objective assurance of salvation? Hardly! On the contrary, the Lord Jesus (John 5.24), Paul (Romans 8.38-39), and John (1 John 5.11-13) have no qualms about offering absolute, objective assurance of salvation. Furthermore, works are never included as a requirement of assurance." Christ guarantees, "him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (John 6.37). I came to Him by faith in His Word so I can never be lost. My assurance is in His promise and keeping power, not in my efforts or performance. He said, "I give unto them [my sheep] eternal life; and they shall never perish" (John 10.28). "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Pet. 1.3-5).
That's a God you can place your trust in. Praise the Lord!