Churchwork
06-10-2009, 03:21 PM
You, then, asserting that salvation is not by Jesus Christ alone? Any belief system that rejects Christ alone, like yours, is deeply distorted. But we seek no other remedy than the Lord Jesus Christ. The Scripture is our authority, without adding anything of our own invention. May nothing be corrupted by our own notions. I would encourage you to return to Scripture instead of simply giving me your unaided logic, without any Scriptural warrant.
OSAS Arminians (Christians) don't say Christ doesn't do the saving alone, for salvation is not by works lest any man should boast. I too would encourage you to see that you can find no verses in Scripture that teach a regeneration before repentance and belief in Christ. Nor would a young child fathom such an idea growing up in the Church.
The Scriptures themselves plainly teach that in order to believe the gospel the Holy Spirit must open our blind eyes, unplug our deaf ears and turn our heart of stone into a heart of flesh. This does not occur apart from the Spirit's work. Jesus himself declares that no one can believe in Him unless God grants it (John 6:65) and all to whom God grants it, will believe (John 6:37). This is Jesus, not our invention.
OSAS Arminians (Christians) don't say that God does not open eyes and grant faith. Rather what Christians say, in accordance with Scripture, is that God provides enabling grace for all, not just some, otherwise that would be evil. For that is like you seeing 10 people drowning, but only extend your arm out to five of them when you could have saved all. Do you see how it is evil for your god to create people for Hell without giving them any recourse and irresistibly imposing salvation on others? With the Holy Spirit you can see. If you can't see, you haven't come to God with an honest heart for the Holy Spirit to grace you with seeing.
Also per your assertion, there actually are no contradictory wills of God. As you know, God wills and desires that we obey his commands. But his willing that we obey does not make it so because it is his preceptive will. It is what he desires us to do. For example, the command, "love God will all your heart...". Do we? No we often fail to live up to this command. God also commands everyone to repent and believe the gospel? But can an unregenerate man believe the gospel apart from the Holy Spirit? No. The Scripture declares that no one can say 'Jesus is Lord' apart from the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit he gives us that enablees us to cry 'ABBA Father'. This is different than his will of decree. For example, that Jesus would go to the cross or that God will conquer evil. These are certainties that will occur because God declares it. Different than his preceptive will.
Try to understand the contradiction in your god who has a perceptive will and a decreed will which contradict each other. If God desires to save all but does not provide everyone with the opportunity to do so with sufficient grace to enable them and to have the choice, then God is decreeing evilly, imposing salvation irresistibly. If this behavior is evil for man, why wouldn't it be evil for God if His standards are higher than ours? Do you see the contradiction? It would be like saying I'll give you a ride to the store (I want to save you), but fail to pick you up (not enabling sufficient grace for all), then blame you why you didn't show up at the store (your god of Calvinism mocking and berating). If you have a conscience in Christ and your spirit is really regenerated by the Holy Spirit you will immediately testify the god of Calvinism is evil. If you are not saved, you will be turned off by what you think is Christianity because of the misrepresentation of God by Calvinists. Moreover, the gospel is not properly preached by Calvinists, teaching people that God didn't die for all (limited atonement); therefore, for those who are not decreed irresistibly, they can't respond to the gospel anyway which gives them false hope and makes the gospel just a charade. It's very belittling.
One wonders what love you can muster out of this theology of Calvinism.
Your example of the rope? Are you trying to tell me that there are some people who will naturally grab the rope and not others, apart from the Holy Spirit? 1 Cor 2:14 declares that "the natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." However, "we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God." No one believes the gospel, according to Scripture apart from God working regenertion in his heart.
Shalom
John
No, I am not saying some people will grab the rope apart from the Holy Spirit. I am saying God is righteous, holy and true. He will provide sufficient grace to all drowning persons by the Holy Spirit so each and every person has the choice to grab it or not, leaving none without excuse nor passing over anyone by disallowing them.
Your natural man refuses God. The natural man comes up with his own saving theories such as believing regeneration occurs without him having to repent and believe in Christ. Of course, this is a selfish salvation without repentance and true belief to then be regenerated. In order for you to be saved, you will not be able to come to God by your natural man, but it will have to be by enabling grace God has given you to have the choice as a sovereign being with free-will made in God's image and by all the Holy Spirit graces you with to convince and convict you and open your eyes to see the truth. Your choice, the same choice, afforded to all men, so none are without excuse. God's laws are written on the conscience of every man's heart.
Nobody is regenerated who refuses to first repent and believe in Christ, for this is a choice afforded to all mankind that is the condition God has put in place. You're not a robot. Let your proof be that you can find no verses in Scripture where regeneration precedes choice to believe by faith.
This is a parallelism. Same "all men." "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" (Rom. 5.18). "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2.4). All men can be saved "whosoever should believeth" (John 3.16) "to the knowledge of truth" and "unto justification of life".
Do you agree there are no verses in the Bible for total depravity? All cases, propensity to sin is in view, not total inability. Does God offer us salvation when He says "come unto me" (Matt. 11.28) because we have free-will: "whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely" (Rev. 22.17)? Are faith and works contrasted as opposites? "By grace are ye saved, through faith;...not of works" (Eph. 2.8-9); "But to him that worketh not, but believeth..." (Rom. 4.5). Christ repeatedly gave such invitations as "Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matt. 11.28), and "If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink" (John 7.37).
It would be quite strange for God to appeal to all and offer to all to come unto Him, yet not provide some with sufficient grace to have the choice to come unto Him.
Pray on this.
More proofs (http://biblocality.com/forums/faq.php?faq=37questions#faq_question5).
OSAS Arminians (Christians) don't say Christ doesn't do the saving alone, for salvation is not by works lest any man should boast. I too would encourage you to see that you can find no verses in Scripture that teach a regeneration before repentance and belief in Christ. Nor would a young child fathom such an idea growing up in the Church.
The Scriptures themselves plainly teach that in order to believe the gospel the Holy Spirit must open our blind eyes, unplug our deaf ears and turn our heart of stone into a heart of flesh. This does not occur apart from the Spirit's work. Jesus himself declares that no one can believe in Him unless God grants it (John 6:65) and all to whom God grants it, will believe (John 6:37). This is Jesus, not our invention.
OSAS Arminians (Christians) don't say that God does not open eyes and grant faith. Rather what Christians say, in accordance with Scripture, is that God provides enabling grace for all, not just some, otherwise that would be evil. For that is like you seeing 10 people drowning, but only extend your arm out to five of them when you could have saved all. Do you see how it is evil for your god to create people for Hell without giving them any recourse and irresistibly imposing salvation on others? With the Holy Spirit you can see. If you can't see, you haven't come to God with an honest heart for the Holy Spirit to grace you with seeing.
Also per your assertion, there actually are no contradictory wills of God. As you know, God wills and desires that we obey his commands. But his willing that we obey does not make it so because it is his preceptive will. It is what he desires us to do. For example, the command, "love God will all your heart...". Do we? No we often fail to live up to this command. God also commands everyone to repent and believe the gospel? But can an unregenerate man believe the gospel apart from the Holy Spirit? No. The Scripture declares that no one can say 'Jesus is Lord' apart from the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit he gives us that enablees us to cry 'ABBA Father'. This is different than his will of decree. For example, that Jesus would go to the cross or that God will conquer evil. These are certainties that will occur because God declares it. Different than his preceptive will.
Try to understand the contradiction in your god who has a perceptive will and a decreed will which contradict each other. If God desires to save all but does not provide everyone with the opportunity to do so with sufficient grace to enable them and to have the choice, then God is decreeing evilly, imposing salvation irresistibly. If this behavior is evil for man, why wouldn't it be evil for God if His standards are higher than ours? Do you see the contradiction? It would be like saying I'll give you a ride to the store (I want to save you), but fail to pick you up (not enabling sufficient grace for all), then blame you why you didn't show up at the store (your god of Calvinism mocking and berating). If you have a conscience in Christ and your spirit is really regenerated by the Holy Spirit you will immediately testify the god of Calvinism is evil. If you are not saved, you will be turned off by what you think is Christianity because of the misrepresentation of God by Calvinists. Moreover, the gospel is not properly preached by Calvinists, teaching people that God didn't die for all (limited atonement); therefore, for those who are not decreed irresistibly, they can't respond to the gospel anyway which gives them false hope and makes the gospel just a charade. It's very belittling.
One wonders what love you can muster out of this theology of Calvinism.
Your example of the rope? Are you trying to tell me that there are some people who will naturally grab the rope and not others, apart from the Holy Spirit? 1 Cor 2:14 declares that "the natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." However, "we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God." No one believes the gospel, according to Scripture apart from God working regenertion in his heart.
Shalom
John
No, I am not saying some people will grab the rope apart from the Holy Spirit. I am saying God is righteous, holy and true. He will provide sufficient grace to all drowning persons by the Holy Spirit so each and every person has the choice to grab it or not, leaving none without excuse nor passing over anyone by disallowing them.
Your natural man refuses God. The natural man comes up with his own saving theories such as believing regeneration occurs without him having to repent and believe in Christ. Of course, this is a selfish salvation without repentance and true belief to then be regenerated. In order for you to be saved, you will not be able to come to God by your natural man, but it will have to be by enabling grace God has given you to have the choice as a sovereign being with free-will made in God's image and by all the Holy Spirit graces you with to convince and convict you and open your eyes to see the truth. Your choice, the same choice, afforded to all men, so none are without excuse. God's laws are written on the conscience of every man's heart.
Nobody is regenerated who refuses to first repent and believe in Christ, for this is a choice afforded to all mankind that is the condition God has put in place. You're not a robot. Let your proof be that you can find no verses in Scripture where regeneration precedes choice to believe by faith.
This is a parallelism. Same "all men." "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" (Rom. 5.18). "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2.4). All men can be saved "whosoever should believeth" (John 3.16) "to the knowledge of truth" and "unto justification of life".
Do you agree there are no verses in the Bible for total depravity? All cases, propensity to sin is in view, not total inability. Does God offer us salvation when He says "come unto me" (Matt. 11.28) because we have free-will: "whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely" (Rev. 22.17)? Are faith and works contrasted as opposites? "By grace are ye saved, through faith;...not of works" (Eph. 2.8-9); "But to him that worketh not, but believeth..." (Rom. 4.5). Christ repeatedly gave such invitations as "Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matt. 11.28), and "If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink" (John 7.37).
It would be quite strange for God to appeal to all and offer to all to come unto Him, yet not provide some with sufficient grace to have the choice to come unto Him.
Pray on this.
More proofs (http://biblocality.com/forums/faq.php?faq=37questions#faq_question5).