Churchwork
06-06-2009, 09:43 PM
Surely you jest [that there are no verses for total depravity]... "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. Romans 3:10-11
I think you are legalizing this verse, for it is a Psalm 14.1-3 and 53.1-3 having poetic license. It's like you are a bad lawyer trying to get the Scriptures off on some technicality. But I can respond with a more accurate reading and no assuming.
The equivalent of this verse is saying "we are all sinners," not totally depraved. We are all born into sin. We all need God's enabling grace. Where does this verse say God doesn't provide enabling grace to all? Hence, free-will and partial depravity are preserved as the restrained view. The extreme view of depravity is denied because it assumes too much from this verse.
Do you see how total depravity requires your god to irresistibly cause some to be allegedly saved and irresistibly disallow others even the opportunity to be saved? Does this not strike the core of your being as evil, for if man behaved this way towards fellow man, we would be sinning?
Mormons I know make this same claim. They call it a 'burning in the bosom'.
In other words, they don't depend on evidence. Isn't this the burning in the bosom of Calvinists, or in their heads (without the spirit), since they just assume their regeneration without prior repenting and believing Christ which God requires as the condition for salvation: saved by grace through faith?
We are to deliver the gospel to the whole world, since anyone can be saved whosoever is willing. It would be strange to me to deliver the gospel and give the non-elect false hope. I would be sinning if I did that. Everyone has common grace (God's laws are written on the conscience of all our hearts), but some receive special grace through the preaching of the gospel. A person can be saved without ever hearing the gospel of salvation if they believe in God, then surely they would accept the Son if presented to Him. God takes this into account. For example, Abel gave God a right offering, whereas Cain did not. Neither of them receive the gospel of salvation through Christ, but if Jesus came when Abel was alive, he surely would accept God's only begotten Son.
Why don't you have the same conscience of the Holy Spirit in Christ if you are saved?
My God would be evil if He does what yours does: 10 people drowning, but only throws out a rope to 5 of them.
Oh Calvinist, why do you grin smugly full of pride (http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5858#post5858)? Is it because you think you were chosen and others were denied it without even given the choice? What love is this? How do you even know you were selected when it was not your choice, but somehow you assume you were chosen? You know what they say about assuming.
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14
(Notice, the man without the Spirit...or an unregenerate man...does not accept the things of God because he cannot understand them. How can this be clearer?)
The "natural man" is the "man without the Spirit" so you cannot come to Christ by the flesh, but it does not mean you can't receive Christ by choice, for you are still in God's image. If you deny this, then you have a big problem with God, because God said you will always be in His image. Nothing can ever change that fact.
If man was totally deprave, then nobody could receive Christ. But Christians do receive Christ because of God's enabling grace. Nobody is denied the opportunity for salvation. Thus, nobody is totally depraved.
Do note it is a pointless statement to say we are totally deprave in light of the fact that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, for if we are totally deprave then Jesus died in vain. None could receive Him anyway.
Thus, to receive Christ into your life you must repent to the cross as a helpless sinner, then God will regenerate/save you, bestowing new birth (born-again) and making you a new creation.
Another false aspect of total depravity is that, you can help an old lady across the street, but you can't accept the proof of the resurrection, proving Jesus is God? That makes no sense. Rather, the Bible distinguishes between the natural man and the preserved part of man made in God's image which can receive the cross by God's grace.
God enables all things, including sufficient grace for all and free-will for all souls.
Sooooo...free-choice is your starting place for understanding this stuff? Not what Scripture has to say about it?
Actually no. Free-choice is not the starting point, for God is. Who gives free-choice? God. God made us in His image with free-will just like He has. Remember Abel's free-will offering? There are over 4000 instances of free-will mentioned in Scripture.
Again, the unregenerate person never wants to be saved and accept Christ. Let’s think about this for a minute. The unregenerate person is sinful, wayward, lying, having every inclination towards evil, mad, loving of darkness, rejecting of the things of God, considering the things of God as foolishness, hardened, insensitive, corrupt, and hostile towards God. Why would such a person even want anything to do with God? He is not prevented from choosing Christ by anything other than his own free will. The only way this would change is if God first regenerates him.
God's grace comes upon man to persuade man, the unregenerate man, and some men receive God's drawing and so they are called. This is because they have the choice. Though all sinners and man can't save himself, surely God can convince at least some men as He pleads with all men for man has a free-will like God does. A person is prevented from receiving Christ by the coaxing of his flesh, not by his own free-will made in God's image; hence God brings in sufficient grace to save all men, whosoever is willing. There is no need to regenerate man first. God can give sufficient grace and give man the choice to be saved by grace through faith to be regenerated. Grace is "through faith" and faith precedes regeneration.
Every man is born into sin, so because of this, every man is separated from God. None accept God, for even one little sin separates you from God. Without the cross of salvation, none could be saved, because the cross is backward looking even to Adam and Eve, and Cain and Abel. Abel was not totally deprave. He was though fallen and in need of salvation. Hence, God gave him sufficient grace, just as God gave to Cain, but Cain gave an improper offering whereas Abel gave a genuine from the heart offering, not based on works.
Adam and Eve were not saved just like Cain was unsaved, for that one small act of disobedience separated them from God for all eternity. There is no record of them giving a right offering to God like Abel did. There is no record of them being totally deprave, that they were unable to give a right offering to God.
To be fallen is not the same thing as total depravity. A man can be fallen but still has free-will to accept the Good News of salvation with God's prevenient (anticipatory) grace for the free-will to accept. Whereas total depravity says the will cannot unless grace is given to some, but not sufficient for all. Do you see why total depravity is wrong? Because there is no glory in a God who is without the power to provident sufficient grace for all, though not all may not accept it.
The God of OSAS Arminian is able to provide for all that the God of Calvinism can only do for some. Therefore, the God of OSAS Arminian can do more than the God of Calvinism, and therefore, He is better. One might even say the God of Calvinism is evil, because though he can save all, he chooses not to. Whereas the God of OSAS Arminian can't save all, because that violates the free-will God gave to man making him perfectly in His image if some men choose to refuse God's way of salvation.
I think you are legalizing this verse, for it is a Psalm 14.1-3 and 53.1-3 having poetic license. It's like you are a bad lawyer trying to get the Scriptures off on some technicality. But I can respond with a more accurate reading and no assuming.
The equivalent of this verse is saying "we are all sinners," not totally depraved. We are all born into sin. We all need God's enabling grace. Where does this verse say God doesn't provide enabling grace to all? Hence, free-will and partial depravity are preserved as the restrained view. The extreme view of depravity is denied because it assumes too much from this verse.
Do you see how total depravity requires your god to irresistibly cause some to be allegedly saved and irresistibly disallow others even the opportunity to be saved? Does this not strike the core of your being as evil, for if man behaved this way towards fellow man, we would be sinning?
Mormons I know make this same claim. They call it a 'burning in the bosom'.
In other words, they don't depend on evidence. Isn't this the burning in the bosom of Calvinists, or in their heads (without the spirit), since they just assume their regeneration without prior repenting and believing Christ which God requires as the condition for salvation: saved by grace through faith?
We are to deliver the gospel to the whole world, since anyone can be saved whosoever is willing. It would be strange to me to deliver the gospel and give the non-elect false hope. I would be sinning if I did that. Everyone has common grace (God's laws are written on the conscience of all our hearts), but some receive special grace through the preaching of the gospel. A person can be saved without ever hearing the gospel of salvation if they believe in God, then surely they would accept the Son if presented to Him. God takes this into account. For example, Abel gave God a right offering, whereas Cain did not. Neither of them receive the gospel of salvation through Christ, but if Jesus came when Abel was alive, he surely would accept God's only begotten Son.
Why don't you have the same conscience of the Holy Spirit in Christ if you are saved?
My God would be evil if He does what yours does: 10 people drowning, but only throws out a rope to 5 of them.
Oh Calvinist, why do you grin smugly full of pride (http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5858#post5858)? Is it because you think you were chosen and others were denied it without even given the choice? What love is this? How do you even know you were selected when it was not your choice, but somehow you assume you were chosen? You know what they say about assuming.
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14
(Notice, the man without the Spirit...or an unregenerate man...does not accept the things of God because he cannot understand them. How can this be clearer?)
The "natural man" is the "man without the Spirit" so you cannot come to Christ by the flesh, but it does not mean you can't receive Christ by choice, for you are still in God's image. If you deny this, then you have a big problem with God, because God said you will always be in His image. Nothing can ever change that fact.
If man was totally deprave, then nobody could receive Christ. But Christians do receive Christ because of God's enabling grace. Nobody is denied the opportunity for salvation. Thus, nobody is totally depraved.
Do note it is a pointless statement to say we are totally deprave in light of the fact that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, for if we are totally deprave then Jesus died in vain. None could receive Him anyway.
Thus, to receive Christ into your life you must repent to the cross as a helpless sinner, then God will regenerate/save you, bestowing new birth (born-again) and making you a new creation.
Another false aspect of total depravity is that, you can help an old lady across the street, but you can't accept the proof of the resurrection, proving Jesus is God? That makes no sense. Rather, the Bible distinguishes between the natural man and the preserved part of man made in God's image which can receive the cross by God's grace.
God enables all things, including sufficient grace for all and free-will for all souls.
Sooooo...free-choice is your starting place for understanding this stuff? Not what Scripture has to say about it?
Actually no. Free-choice is not the starting point, for God is. Who gives free-choice? God. God made us in His image with free-will just like He has. Remember Abel's free-will offering? There are over 4000 instances of free-will mentioned in Scripture.
Again, the unregenerate person never wants to be saved and accept Christ. Let’s think about this for a minute. The unregenerate person is sinful, wayward, lying, having every inclination towards evil, mad, loving of darkness, rejecting of the things of God, considering the things of God as foolishness, hardened, insensitive, corrupt, and hostile towards God. Why would such a person even want anything to do with God? He is not prevented from choosing Christ by anything other than his own free will. The only way this would change is if God first regenerates him.
God's grace comes upon man to persuade man, the unregenerate man, and some men receive God's drawing and so they are called. This is because they have the choice. Though all sinners and man can't save himself, surely God can convince at least some men as He pleads with all men for man has a free-will like God does. A person is prevented from receiving Christ by the coaxing of his flesh, not by his own free-will made in God's image; hence God brings in sufficient grace to save all men, whosoever is willing. There is no need to regenerate man first. God can give sufficient grace and give man the choice to be saved by grace through faith to be regenerated. Grace is "through faith" and faith precedes regeneration.
Every man is born into sin, so because of this, every man is separated from God. None accept God, for even one little sin separates you from God. Without the cross of salvation, none could be saved, because the cross is backward looking even to Adam and Eve, and Cain and Abel. Abel was not totally deprave. He was though fallen and in need of salvation. Hence, God gave him sufficient grace, just as God gave to Cain, but Cain gave an improper offering whereas Abel gave a genuine from the heart offering, not based on works.
Adam and Eve were not saved just like Cain was unsaved, for that one small act of disobedience separated them from God for all eternity. There is no record of them giving a right offering to God like Abel did. There is no record of them being totally deprave, that they were unable to give a right offering to God.
To be fallen is not the same thing as total depravity. A man can be fallen but still has free-will to accept the Good News of salvation with God's prevenient (anticipatory) grace for the free-will to accept. Whereas total depravity says the will cannot unless grace is given to some, but not sufficient for all. Do you see why total depravity is wrong? Because there is no glory in a God who is without the power to provident sufficient grace for all, though not all may not accept it.
The God of OSAS Arminian is able to provide for all that the God of Calvinism can only do for some. Therefore, the God of OSAS Arminian can do more than the God of Calvinism, and therefore, He is better. One might even say the God of Calvinism is evil, because though he can save all, he chooses not to. Whereas the God of OSAS Arminian can't save all, because that violates the free-will God gave to man making him perfectly in His image if some men choose to refuse God's way of salvation.