3 Genuine Questions for The Local Church

[Churchwork]

3 Genuine Questions

1) Witness Lee was a Calvinist (5 points of TULIP), i.e. teaching total depravity where nobody has the ability to receive what Jesus did on the cross without God irresistibly imposing salvation on you. Is there any proof this teaching is true that God damns people to hell without even giving them any enabling grace to have the opportunity to be saved, whosoever is willing, and irresistible imposing salvation on others?

2) Witness Lee called himself God, not in the Godhead, but God in nature as others in The Local Church do. Some say they are God without even saying God in nature. It would seem to me there should only ever be one use of the term "God" - the uncreated Creator. Wouldn't you agree? Besides, how can you be God in nature? I thought only God was God in nature-perfectly righteous and sinless. How can you be God if you are not part of the Godhead?

3) Those of The Local Church say they are not modalists, but at the same time they say Jesus is the Father and the Father is the Spirit and the Spirit is the Son. And they say God is a Person who is 3 Persons. If this is the very definition of modalism, then what makes a follower of the oracle of God think this is not modalism? How can there be 4 Persons and in this quaternity, why are there two different definitions of Persons? Hasn't the Church always used just this one term Persons to refer to each Person of the Triune God? I never see the 3 Persons of the Trinity ever confused one for another in Scripture. I never see Jesus saying He is the Father or the Spirit. He says He will indwell the believer by the Spirit while He remains at the throne. Jesus the Everlasting Father does not refer to Jesus being God the Father, but that term is used only once in Scripture to indicate Jesus is our ruler or chief and as a term of respect or honor.

Watchman Nee can help those of The Local Church in several ways:

1) get rid of denominations like The Local Church (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/whichchurch.htm),
2) the council of the Godhead existed in eternity of the past as 3 Persons (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/thewayofthelord.htm), and
3) through the dividing of your spirit, soul and body (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/SMCFP.htm), your spirit can attain the sensitivity by the grace of God to appreciate these facts and let go of other false behavior patterns and beliefs such as shutting your mind down in shouting mantra, suing for faith for filthy lucre, altering Nee's writings by bearing false witness (e.g. changing "desire" to "hate" in TSM, chapter 2 (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/spiritsoul.htm)) so that you limit your emotion to hate and love, rather than God's full range of emotions.

Another Issue
Is the first rapture according to readiness? (Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36, Matt. 24.42) to be raptured at Rev. 7.9 before the trumpets of the Tribulation? Or is the first rapture going to rapture the whole Church at that time? If the whole Church, isn't that sorta antinomian, because you can lie on a bed of fornication and be tied down to the world like a balloon, yet still be raptured at that time? I don't think that's how God works for it is a lower conscience. God's conscience is higher than that.

I think The Local Church believes everyone who is an overcomer is raptured at the first rapture, but it appears Scripture is only referring to those alive at the time of first rapture who keep the word of His patience, are prayerful and watchful and keep the conduct of Matt. 5-7 and include the martyrs in the past 20 centuries (5th seal) and the 144,000 firstfruits virgins (Rev. 14.1-5), but not all resting overcomers. So if this is true then The Local Church is wrong about who is raptured before the Tribulation.

What would be the negative consequence of claiming ALL overcomers are raptured at first rapture? It leaves those who have yet to overcome as martyrs during the Tribulation without the comfort of other overcomers to be raptured at the last trumpet. The martyrs are raptured individually 3.5 days after they go to rest like the Two Witnesses, but it seems strange to leave them behind with all overcomers from previous generations already raptured. First the dead shall rise then those who are "alive" and "left." If you are alive you are left so this is not redundancy, but God is saying those who were not taken at the first rapture, will be raptured at the start of the bowls at the last trumpet. There are strong reasons to believe both the "taken" and the "left" (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Matthew_24.htm) (speaking to Christians) in Matt. 24.40-41 and 1 Thess. 4.15-17 are saved.

Why at the start of the last trumpet which pours out the bowls (pre-wrath) does resurrection take place? The main reason is because 11.15 is the start of the last trumpet, but it is before the bowls are poured out, since the 7th seal leads to the blowing of the 7 trumpets and the 7th trumpet leads to the pouring out of the 7 bowls.

[confusedbutnotlost]

3 Genuine Questions

1) Witness Lee was a Calvinist (5 points of TULIP), i.e. teaching total depravity where nobody has the ability to receive what Jesus did on the cross without God irresistibly imposing salvation on you. Is there any proof this teaching is true that God damns people to hell without even giving them any enabling grace to have the opportunity to be saved, whosoever is willing, and irresistible imposing salvation on others?

2) Witness Lee called himself God, not in the Godhead, but God in nature as others in The Local Church do. Some say they are God without even saying God in nature. It would seem to me there should only ever be one use of the term "God" - the uncreated Creator. Wouldn't you agree? Besides, how can you be God in nature? I thought only God was God in nature-perfectly righteous and sinless. How can you be God if you are not part of the Godhead?

3) Those of The Local Church say they are not modalists, but at the same time they say Jesus is the Father and the Father is the Spirit and the Spirit is the Son. And they say God is a Person who is 3 Persons. If this is the very definition of modalism, then what makes a follower of the oracle of God think this is not modalism? How can there be 4 Persons and in this quaternity, why are there two different definitions of Persons? Hasn't the Church always used just this one term Persons to refer to each Person of the Triune God? I never see the 3 Persons of the Trinity ever confused one for another in Scripture. I never see Jesus saying He is the Father or the Spirit. He says He will indwell the believer by the Spirit while He remains at the throne. Jesus the Everlasting Father does not refer to Jesus being God the Father, but that term is used only once in Scripture to indicate Jesus is our ruler or chief and as a term of respect or honor.

Watchman Nee can help those of The Local Church in several ways:

1) get rid of denominations like The Local Church (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/whichchurch.htm),
2) the council of the Godhead existed in eternity of the past as 3 Persons (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/thewayofthelord.htm), and
3) through the dividing of your spirit, soul and body (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/SMCFP.htm), your spirit can attain the sensitivity by the grace of God to appreciate these facts and let go of other false behavior patterns and beliefs such as shutting your mind down in shouting mantra, suing for faith for filthy lucre, altering Nee's writings by bearing false witness (e.g. changing "desire" to "hate" in TSM, chapter 2 (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/spiritsoul.htm)) so that you limit your emotion to hate and love, rather than God's full range of emotions.

Another Issue
Is the first rapture according to readiness? (Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36, Matt. 24.42) to be raptured at Rev. 7.9 before the trumpets of the Tribulation? Or is the first rapture going to rapture the whole Church at that time? If the whole Church, isn't that sorta antinomian, because you can lie on a bed of fornication and be tied down to the world like a balloon, yet still be raptured at that time? I don't think that's how God works for it is a lower conscience. God's conscience is higher than that.

I think The Local Church believes everyone who is an overcomer is raptured at the first rapture, but it appears Scripture is only referring to those alive at the time of first rapture who keep the word of His patience, are prayerful and watchful and keep the conduct of Matt. 5-7 and include the martyrs in the past 20 centuries (5th seal) and the 144,000 firstfruits virgins (Rev. 14.1-5), but not all resting overcomers. So if this is true then The Local Church is wrong about who is raptured before the Tribulation.

What would be the negative consequence of claiming ALL overcomers are raptured at first rapture? It leaves those who have yet to overcome as martyrs during the Tribulation without the comfort of other overcomers to be raptured at the last trumpet. The martyrs are raptured individually 3.5 days after they go to rest like the Two Witnesses, but it seems strange to leave them behind with all overcomers from previous generations already raptured. First the dead shall rise then those who are "alive" and "left." If you are alive you are left so this is not redundancy, but God is saying those who were not taken at the first rapture, will be raptured at the start of the bowls at the last trumpet. There are strong reasons to believe both the "taken" and the "left" (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Matthew_24.htm) (speaking to Christians) in Matt. 24.40-41 and 1 Thess. 4.15-17 are saved.

Why at the start of the last trumpet which pours out the bowls (pre-wrath) does resurrection take place? The main reason is because 11.15 is the start of the last trumpet, but it is before the bowls are poured out, since the 7th seal leads to the blowing of the 7 trumpets and the 7th trumpet leads to the pouring out of the 7 bowls.


I have read a lot of the negative posts about the LSM and i can say from experience that not all of them seem to be totally correct, but i do not have lot of knowledge because i left the LC when i turned 13 and everyone but my mom is still in it. Here is my opinion on a few things:

1. Pray reading can be quite creepy (as a kid i thought it was disturbing and scary) but i never experienced anything that i could describe as "violent shouting." They did loudly shout parts of verses in an odd way, but again i would not describe it as violent or Satanic shouting. IMO pray reading takes away meaning because the whole verse is not the real focus, instead individual parts are repeated without real context. So im not a fan of PR but i think it falls more in the creepy/unnecesary category rather than satanidc, but thats JMO.

2. It is my understanding that they believe the first rapture or whatever is for the overcomers/ first fruits. I am not sure if these overcomers are ONLY from the LC or if they think its just mostly them.

3. I heard a million times growing up that God CHOSE ME before i was born. I was CHOSEN. As a kid i didnt have the critical thinking skills to really know what that meant, but my overall feeling is that the LSM does teach that those of us who are saved were chosen by God before we were born, but there might also be an aspect of "we chose God" before we were born, so that would still leave the door open to the belief that we DID choose God (not quite the Calvinist belief that you described above).

[Churchwork]

I listened to audios and watched videos and they come across as violent to me. Maybe your version of violence is different than mine because your heart was you admitted "worshiping Satan". That's a hard heart.

Do you believe Jesus is God and was resurrected AND He is the 2nd Person of the Trinity? You said in your profile you don't feel forgiven ("i fear that i am not forgiven"), but God says you are forgiven if you truly believe in Him. Appropriate His perfect work for you. Rebuke Satan for messing with your feelings. This is spiritual warfare. Realize there is a war on for your life.

As to first rapture not surprisingly they differ from Watchman Nee. They claim all overcomers are raptured before the Tribulation. Whereas Nee in his book "Come Lord, Jesus" which I agree because I have read deeply those proofs, said that only living overcomers at the time and martyred Christians from previous centuries are raptured at the the first rapture. Take a look at the Partial Rapture poll (http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?131-Partial-Rapture) in the Separate Rapture forums.

Even so, there is a Calvinist tendency at LSM like you said, you were chosen before you had a choice. God chose by foreknowing our free-choice. The mistake in thinking comes from the idol called Total depravity. Man is not Totally depraved.

And we can't forget to keep mentioning the heresy of modalism, claiming the Father is the Son, and deification, calling oneself God, and suing for 136 million.

I stand by still to this day the 6 major sins of leeism (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/lsmlccult.htm) are truly sinful even with all the sugar-coating on them.

You should ask your dad why they reject the Apostles are for today and get back to me with the answer. Watchman Nee said there were about 200 Apostles in China in his day shortly before he was sent to prison for life. The little flock remain in China today and they reject the LSM. It is really weird how the Leeists changed chapter 2, part 1 of TSM in their version. For me it is the weirdest thing of all because I have read The Spiritual Man so deeply. All you need is the Bible but if you wanted one other book to help you TSM fits the Bible like a glove. It is the only book Nee ever published of size. The most important thing once you are saved is to experience the dividing of your spirit, soul and body. Many spiritual Christians have said they would not know what spiritual life was like if they did not know this and experience it. It's one thing to know it and another to experience it. The proper consecration is needed to experience it for that grace to come in to really know and feel and sense the differences in your soul and spirit to be able to walk by your spirit, and in the differences between your soul and body of your 'soulical body'.

A person who wanted to write a comprehensive book on the LSM cult should go about it this way I think:
1) Read all of Watchman Nee's writings deeply from CFP & CLC to know what Nee really believed.
2) Read various critiques of Nee out there that are coming from Calvinists (Dana Roberts and G. Richard Fisher-bipartite, calvinist, amillennialists) to show how they bear false witness against him. They have serious angst against him. It is palpable. Dana has written three books on Nee now trying to find fault with him. But we are tripartite, osas arminian, partial rapture believers fully proven in God's word. Apostles are for today, Scriptural locality is true, and gap restoration is true. They take issue with that too.
3) Then read the LSM writings to show how different they are, both from their writings they make 30% longer of Nee and how Lee's writings differed so much from Nee's writings. It's a monumental task. But my prophecy is someone will do it one day. It has still never been done after all this time.
4) Do this and you produce a powerful piece of work. Who knows maybe you are the one to do it to engage the warfare and the battle head on. Then the confusion goes away.