A Help for Sazz with Evidence for God

[Churchwork]

I don't even know if I'd know a miracle when I saw one, or if something else would work too. Finally, for now, I ask you this: what would it take to shake your faith in the uncreated Creator, in the Word?
Even if you received a miracle, maybe you would just shrug it off somehow. Maybe holding out for a miracle is like testing the Lord your God. Maybe just trust Him on His Word He said He would prove Himself through observing nature. In nature we know nothing can happen all by itself, thus it requires a cause, so since the universe can't cause itself, there is only one known available possibility, the uncreated must exist and created. And there can't be an eternity of the past of cause and effects due to the exponential progression of conscience, for mankind would not still be sinning to the extent it still does.

We know where He has revealed Himself specifically in nature because you can't find a naturalistic explanation to explain away the data for the resurrection appearances in various group settings. None can compare to Christ. Whether you like this answer or not this is the proof, so the burden shifts on you which is incumbent upon you to find a way to explain it away if you don't accept it; but if you can't then give your life to Christ. That is being intellectually honest with yourself.

There is nothing that could change my view, because once-saved-always-saved. I know I have God's Spirit in my spirit. I know all my sins have been forgiven and that my old man has died on the cross with Christ. I know I have eternal life and my spirit has be resurrected heavenly. And I know those who refuse Christ, His life, death, deity, resurrection and even, return in Person, are going to go to Hell, because obviously, they can't be with God's own people.

[Sazz]

Even if you received a miracle, maybe you would just shrug it off somehow.

Hit the nail right on the head, actually.


Maybe holding out for a miracle is like testing the Lord your God.

Precisely.


Maybe just trust Him on His Word He said He would prove Himself through observing nature.

This is the leap of faith that I'm worried about.


In nature we know nothing can happen all by itself, thus it requires a cause, so since the universe can't cause itself, there is only one known available possibility, the uncreated must exist and created. And there can't be an eternity of the past of cause and effects due to the exponential progression of conscience, for mankind would not still be sinning to the extent it still does.

I'll be addressing the Proof in... eventual time, it'll be a while until I come out with something fully written. From what I've seen, there have been broad assumptions used to attack the Proof, and I'll do what I can to avoid an arrogance traditional to this debate.


There is nothing that could change my view, because once-saved-always-saved.

I read this in your profile and promptly forgot about it when writing. I shouldn't be up this late... I'll be coming back tomorrow, or the next day, or just when I have this kind of poor idea and stay up too late :D


That is being intellectually honest with yourself [WRT the previous paragraph].

I'll consider this once we've gone back and forth over the Proof for a bit; if we can get some other people together to have one big productive argument, that's preferable (although, again, it's hard to get a bunch of people together without the flaming and excessive passion...)

I'll be getting to know the other people around the forum eventually too. See you.

[Churchwork]

Don't think it is a leap of faith in knowing there are trillions of things with a cause in nature which indicates the universe can't cause itself, for you have trillions of pieces of evidence. Think of it this way. Let's say you were really smart and you knew the causes to everything in nature, but there was one last thing you were not sure about. Would it still be reasonable to reject God? That is just an extension of the evidence we have now. To me it seems like you are actually saying you have to be God to know if God exists; but that strikes me as arrogant, way beyond the preponderance of evidence of trillions of cause and effects.

[Churchwork]

Agnosticism is just false humility. Atheism has no evidence, so why go there in any way shape or form that is without accountability? It's because your sin nature drives you to these mistaken assumptions so it gets fed through your selfishness and sinfulness by independency to God and provides Satan a conduit to work in you. You will even enjoy this attitude more than what is true joy of the Holy Spirit. But the conscience is seared so it can't sense that true joy without the Holy Spirit, so it just goes along with what it deems to be joy ascribed to by the world or whatever you fashion in your own desires and imaginations. To know true peace and no matter how much your outerman may stir, your inner man is quickened and sensitive to God's movements within once you become a child of God. Like a light bulb and and wire, it needs the electricity of the Holy Spirit to be a beacon of light unto the world.

[Sazz]

Agnosticism is just false humility.

Agnostics just don't know.


Atheism has no evidence, so why go there in any way shape or form that is without accountability?

Up for review.


It's because your sin nature drives you to these mistaken assumptions so it gets fed through your selfishness and sinfulness by independency to God and provides Satan a conduit to work in you.

We all make assumptions, and a wonderful thing about forums is that we all let them slip, and then they must face the searing judgment of others, with their own. The assumptions of the counters are dug up and blasted, and then we go in a cycle. Also, is Satan considered to control those who neither accept his ideals nor the ones of God? Anyway, your shot. (I'll consider direct reference to the Proof sections to be responded to quickly, as opposed to the writing I'm working on).


But the conscience is seared so it can't sense that true joy without the Holy Spirit, so it just goes along with what it deems to be joy ascribed to by the world or whatever you fashion in your own desires and imaginations.

Atheists don't take this as an insult; in fact, I could see it agreed upon wholeheartedly, because if there is no God, what else is there to draw joy from but the world, including the self? (Granted, this doesn't seem to include the rest of the universe. That would be a gaping exception, but it's in the gist of what is perceived to exist).

Finally, I haven't addressed a large part of your argument directly concerning the will, ways, existence, etc. of God. I'll only say I'm skeptical for now, but your Proof is for now uncontested; I'll leave the more direct issue until my work is hammered out and presented.

[Churchwork]

Agnostics just don't know. We all make assumptions....your Proof is for now uncontested.
You do know since nature can't cause itself; this is not an assumption by the preponderance of evidence. Shutting your mind down doesn't count. Since the proof is uncontested, what are you waiting for? Come to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior, knowing He created you, died for you, and proved Himself by His resurrection.

The Church is a little flock (Luke 12.32) so it is much more likely a small forum will be Christian than a big forum. In fact, any large forum called Christian is not Christian, because the Church is simply not that big. To further prove this fact to you, the New City is only 1379 x 1379 miles, which at most can hold, conservatively speaking, 1.2 billion souls. From all the souls that ever came into being, will come and from the coming millennial kingdom also, that puts the savings ratio at less than 1%. Think about that. Of the 7 billion people on the planet less than 70 million are Christians and since 1 in 3 people call themselves Christians, less than 3% of people who call themselves Christians are actually Christians.

Praise the Lord for this discernment!

p.s. It should be pointed out, since these are very conservative numbers, it could even be 0.5% and 1.5% respectively, or even less than that, depending on the number of souls that have or will come into being before the New City and New Earth commence. For a closer estimation, see the Savings Ratio page (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/savingsratio.htm).

[DD2014]

Don't think it is a leap of faith in knowing there are trillions of things with a cause in nature which indicates the universe can't cause itself, for you have trillions of pieces of evidence. Think of it this way. Let's say you were really smart and you knew the causes to everything in nature, but there was one last thing you were not sure about. Would it still be reasonable to reject God? That is just an extension of the evidence we have now. To me it seems like you are actually saying you have to be God to know if God exists; but that strikes me as arrogant, way beyond the preponderance of evidence of trillions of cause and effects.

Special pleading. Can't you see the error in your logic?

Special pleading is a form of spurious argumentation where a position in a dispute introduces favorable details or excludes unfavorable details by alleging a need to apply additional considerations without proper criticism of these considerations themselves. Essentially, this involves someone attempting to cite something as an exemption to a generally accepted rule, principle, etc. without justifying the exemption.

[Churchwork]

Can you see how you are special pleading, for the preponderance of evidence is overwhelming for trillions of things with causes, but nothing you provide for something happening all by itself. It's like you are saying you have to be God to know if God exists, and obviously, that is goofy.