A Help for Ath[i]est

[Churchwork]

If God knows the future (knows what is going to happen ahead of time), then why would God allow that man to be created knowing ahead of time that they are going to hell? How can a logical person believe in a magical being?
Because God does not coerce. If a person wants to go to jail for life, that is their choice. But God is not going to prevent the creation of those who will be saved just because of the many who refuse salvation. That would give evil the upper hand don't you think?

I would suggest you stop assuming you are being logical and believing in the magic of atheism (your magical idol or being), but come to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior, for Jesus who is uncreated with the Father and the Spirit (the 3 forms of God in One Being in 3 Persons, distinct but not separate) created you before the foundations of the world. Jesus entered His creation, died on the cross for your sins and was resurrected to prove He is God. Since there is no naturalistic theory to account for the data of the eyewitness testimonies in various group settings, know Jesus is God.

Unless you appreciate the fact that you are a sinner, you can't keep the law, all sin gets punished, sin leads to death and the second death which is Hell, how will you ever come to believe in Christ (the perfect sinless sacrifice), His grace and mercy, so that you may be born-again? Without being born-again, you can't receive a new spirit, a renewed mind, and the Holy Spirit Who enters through the window of your conscience to rest in your intuitive spirit to be your guiding principle in life. Nor will the evil spirit be removed from your inner man and let go of the strongholds he has in your mind with your various mistaken assumptions and convoluted thoughts.

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[athiest]

God is not going to prevent the creation of those who will be saved just because of the many who refuse salvation. That would give evil the upper hand don't you think?


He/she/it is the creator of it all, God started it knowing ahead of time the outcome...that I will go to hell. In other words, he condemned me by creating mankind. I can say this because of him knowing ahead of time of my choices. Because of this, I know that there can be no God. It's a little more logical than blind faith.


I would suggest you stop assuming you are being logical and believing in the magic of atheism (your magical idol or being)

I would suggest you stop assuming you are being logical, because as an engineer, I have been taught the correct way to be logical. A magical being? what? That is part of MY definition of atheism, no magic at all.


Unless you appreciate the fact that you are a sinner, you can't keep the law

You cannot seriously believe that all atheist are less moral than any body who is religious. I know plenty of people who I truly believe are Christians, but I know I have a higher standard of morals than they do. I do not drink (ever...never been drunk before and I am of age), smoke, steal, I am friendly and get along with everybody, I am a great father, and a loyal husband. I guess what I'm trying to say is that what you call sin, I call "the wrong thing to do." I know this is obviously hard for you to comprehend, but the only major "sin" that I am guilty of is knowing that the Christian God does not exist.

I guess it all boils down to the fact that my motivation to "behave" is for the progression of society (as a whole).


all sin gets punished

By society



I am now going to discuss the silly concept of free will (in the Christian sense). The basic definition of free will (as I understand it and in this context) is that a person essentially controls their own destiny. In other words, a person has the power to make choices which effects/affects (I can't remember which word to use) their own future. Now that I have established this, we can all agree that God knows the future, he knows every move that a person would make. This would mean that the future already exists, every move that a person makes has already been seen, therefore it (the future) must exist. Furthermore, if God has seen this already existing future, it means that a person's moves are predetermined. I'm starting to sound redundant.

I don't want to attack any religion, because I couldn't care less. It is just silly to attack anybody based on a belief system...too many people have died because of it.

[Churchwork]

He/she/it is the creator of it all, God started it knowing ahead of time the outcome...that I will go to hell. In other words, he condemned me by creating mankind. I can say this because of him knowing ahead of time of my choices. Because of this, I know that there can be no God. It's a little more logical than blind faith.
I think that is a bit arrogant that God is not suppose to create mankind because one person, you, refuse to receive the solution to your problem. Just because we have to lock up some people in jail for life, doesn't mean we can't have a workable society. It's because there were people who didn't want to go your route that we have a workable society.


I would suggest you stop assuming you are being logical, because as an engineer, I have been taught the correct way to be logical. A magical being? what? That is part of MY definition of atheism, no magic at all.
Indeed, atheism is a magical concept, your very idol, because, obviously, nature can't cause itself, nor can it always have been existing. How silly. It is possible for you to accept logics of engineering to a point while disagreeing with the greater engineering of the Great Engineer.


You cannot seriously believe that all atheist are less moral than any body who is religious. I know plenty of people who I truly believe are Christians, but I know I have a higher standard of morals than they do. I do not drink (ever...never been drunk before and I am of age), smoke, steal, I am friendly and get along with everybody, I am a great father, and a loyal husband. I guess what I'm trying to say is that what you call sin, I call "the wrong thing to do." I know this is obviously hard for you to comprehend, but the only major "sin" that I am guilty of is knowing that the Christian God does not exist. I guess it all boils down to the fact that my motivation to "behave" is for the progression of society (as a whole). [All sin gets punished] by society.
I didn't make the claim atheists are less moral than religious people, for even most religious people are unsaved no less than atheists, all of whom are going to Hell. Rather, it is the separation from God that we all are faced with for which the only way of reconciliation is through Christ. Jesus said He is God and proved it by His resurrection which you can't find fault with by the eyewitness accounts in various group settings. I wouldn't make the mistake of assuming someone is a Christian who is less moral than you, for you probably don't even understand what a Christian is. You do the basic things anyone should do, but you still sin, you're still selfish sometimes. Even one little sin eternally separates you from God unless God provides the solution and you accept it. What you call the wrong thing to do, I call sin, for that is what it is. There is no greater sin than rejecting Christ. If one were to write up all your sins you committed in your life, you could probably fill an encyclopedia. But you only need sin once to break the union Adam had with God. No human has never not sinned.

Society will progress, but there is coming the Tribulation and when that happens an new dispensation starts. Wanting society to progress though is not going to save you the individual. You are still going to Hell, for God created you and you reject Him, so if you don't want to be with Him, you don't have to. That's why Hell was created for the bad people such as yourself. All sin gets punished, and not always by society which God will use. Sometimes sin gets punished through acts of nature, physical, soulical and spiritually repercussions by your thoughts and actions. For example, if you choose to develop a hardened attitude it's probably not going to be good for health and others around you, so that doubly does damage to you as they avoid you.


I am now going to discuss the silly concept of free will (in the Christian sense). The basic definition of free will (as I understand it and in this context) is that a person essentially controls their own destiny. In other words, a person has the power to make choices which effects/affects (I can't remember which word to use) their own future. Now that I have established this, we can all agree that God knows the future, he knows every move that a person would make. This would mean that the future already exists, every move that a person makes has already been seen, therefore it (the future) must exist. Furthermore, if God has seen this already existing future, it means that a person's moves are predetermined. I'm starting to sound redundant.
Your mistaken assumption is the future already exists. No. The future hasn't happened yet. Though God can look down the pike to see what happens, because He operates outside of time (so it is an easy thing to do), in no way suggests it has happened already. He merely looks down the eternity of the future and is able to intervene and respond and interact accordingly to ensure the coming New City and New Earth and Hell for those who want to be eternally separated from Him. God predestinates by foreknowing your free-choice: a conditional election, unlimited atonement, resistible grace, for preservation of the saints. The negative consequence of believing what you believe is that it doesn't matter what you do for you assume it is predetermined anyway. No it's not. At the very least, all else being equal, one who thinks you have no choice in the matter will have more negative consequences than one who believes in free-will. What is predetermined is how God responds to your evil choices as well as your potential choice to accept His only begotten Son. You might be interested in learning about Molinism (http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2750&highlight=Molinism) (advanced OSAS Arminianism) which states God produces all possible universe and world ensembles, but picks or actualizes the one that saves the most and damns the least. That's ours. In this, free-will is truly free to be saved by grace through faith. I myself always wondered how God can reconcile free-will with His infinite foreknowledge. This is how He does it. Unlike Calvinism and what you believe we are just robots.


I don't want to attack any religion, because I couldn't care less. It is just silly to attack anybody based on a belief system...too many people have died because of it.
I am glad you are not attacking any religion, just as Christians don't accept your faith or religion or world-view; but we simply tell you that you are going to Hell by your own evidence which is that you can't find a naturalistic explanation to account for the universe or the resurrection appearances of Jesus.

[athiest]

I think that is a bit arrogant that God is not suppose to create mankind because one person, you, refuse to receive the solution to your problem. Just because we have to lock up some people in jail for life, doesn't mean we can't have a workable society. It's because there were people who didn't want to go your route that we have a workable society.

I was just bringing it home, giving an example. It is not just me, but most of the world's population past and present. If by your logic, it would be arrogant to believe in God, because the only reason people follow it is for THEIR OWN salvation. We can have a perfectly workable society without theism, no reason why we can't.


Indeed, atheism is a magical concept, your very idol, because, obviously, nature can't cause itself, nor can it always have been existing. How silly. It is possible for you to accept logics of engineering to a point while disagreeing with the greater engineering of the Great Engineer.

You assume I believe in evolution in it's most conservative form, you know, as the Christians explain it...sorry to disappoint. There is evidence...actual physical evidence of some form of evolution. On the other hand, there is not one iota of evidence for any religion.


I wouldn't make the mistake of assuming someone is a Christian who is less moral than you, for you probably don't even understand what a Christian is.

I grew up in church till I was 21...I know all about it which is why I am no longer part of it.


There is no greater sin than rejecting Christ.

God said that all sins are equal...in the bible at least


Your mistaken assumption is the future already exists.

It has to, he's already seen it


Though God can look down the pike to see what happens, because He operates outside of time (so it is an easy thing to do), in no way suggests it has happened already

what is your source?


God predestinates by foreknowing your free-choice:

First off, predestinates is not a word, so I'm going to respond to what I think you are trying to say.

The choice is only there because he created everything...knowing ahead of time every occurrence. So yes, he condemned every non-believer by creation. Essentially, he knew that many (>billion) people would be damned and he still created them.


You might be interested in learning about Molinism (http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2750&highlight=Molinism) (advanced OSAS Arminianism) which states God produces all possible universe and world ensembles, but picks or actualizes the one that saves the most and damns the least.

This would make more sense for the creators of this particular religion to construct it this way, but they didn't, that is creating an offset of a religion based on a religion...it is another protestant denomination.


In this, free-will is truly free to be saved by grace through faith

Not if he knows the outcome ahead of time...who lives, who dies (by this I mean heaven or hell)


and what you believe we are just robots.

I can see how you would come to this conclusion, sorry about being a little vague. I do not believe you are all robots, rather scared for your own butt. I also believe in free will because of the absence of a God.


I have to get back to work now.

[Churchwork]

It is not just me, but most of the world's population past and present. If by your logic, it would be arrogant to believe in God, because the only reason people follow it is for THEIR OWN salvation. We can have a perfectly workable society without theism, no reason why we can't.
The reason why we can't do it on our own is because man can't do it on his own. That's the point. This takes humility to appreciate. An arrogant man thinks he can. Continued war is not perfectly workable. Your standards are so low. Hence, the coming Tribulation to show man still can't get it right on his own. God is most gracious so He provides salvation. Salvation is certainly better than unsalvation. The reason a person gets saved is because they see God's greatness, place their trust in Him and receive His only begotten Son. Not as you put it just to get saved. Do you see how you have to bear false witness to make your case? Just because that is the reason you would get saved doesn't mean others are like you? You're just projecting your own selfish condition.

The reason why a person believes in God is because God not only proves Himself through nature since the universe can't cause itself (which you can't overturn this preponderance of evidence), but He shows His holy, righteous and perfect nature. Why would you want something less than that? It's because you prefer to be independent to God whatever rationale you use, so God is going to put you in Hell where you would belong, just like criminals are locked up for life. Don't be offended by this. God is just giving you ultimately what you want in your heart of hearts.

Free-will would not exist if God didn't make Himself obscure enough for you to reject Him and provide just enough evidence for you to accept Him.


You assume I believe in evolution in it's most conservative form, you know, as the Christians explain it...sorry to disappoint. There is evidence...actual physical evidence of some form of evolution. On the other hand, there is not one iota of evidence for any religion.
I don't know what "more conservative form" means that you believe Christians believe. I am not sure where I assumed you believe this. Since there is evidence in evolution and cosmology the universe can't cause itself, then accept the uncreated Creator created. To not do so is lunacy. There is evidence, as was given, for the religion of Christianity, this being God's very design by the proof of the resurrection of Jesus by multiple attestation in various group settings. Since you are unable to explain this away naturalistically, realize Jesus is God and salvation is through Him. Alas, I am repeating myself, and you are not responding to this point.


I grew up in church till I was 21...I know all about it which is why I am no longer part of it.
You never grew up in a church, for how can you grow up in something you are not even a member of? The Bible teaches once-saved-always-saved, so if you were a part of it, you would never cease to be a part of it. The reason you still never got saved is because a person has a choice to go to Hell, but suffice it to say since you present no substantive issues, this just further proves you condemn yourself. The church is defined as either the universal body of all believers or the members of the body of Christ in a particular locality. Since neither of these definitions include you, do you see again, how you misrepresent God's Word?


God said that all sins are equal...in the bible at least
No, He didn't say that. He did say the greatest sin is the sin against the Holy Spirit. "And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, neither in the age to come" (Matthew 12:31,32).

Realize the main reason you are not saved is because you don't come to God with an honest heart. You come to Him with a selfish heart. So you don't get saved.

Then of course, there is the 7 deadly sins. Understand how dead your conscience is that you think all sins are the same. When you overeat, you think this is just as bad as killing someone. What you are misunderstanding is that all sin is against God, not that small sins and greater sins are equal.

Have you noticed your thoughts are always wrong?


It has to, he's already seen it...what is your source?
God operates outside of time, so it doesn't have to happen already. The source is the proof of the Uncreated must exist because nature can't cause itself; hence, the Uncreated brought time into existence. Why is this so hard to understand?


First off, predestinates is not a word, so I'm going to respond to what I think you are trying to say.
Predestinates is a word. It's in the Bible. It's in your dictionary. Do you get a sense of how mindless and obstinate you can be with every thing you say? That is the nature of someone going to Hell.


The choice is only there because he created everything...knowing ahead of time every occurrence. So yes, he condemned every non-believer by creation. Essentially, he knew that many (>billion) people would be damned and he still created them.
God is not going to prevent the creation of people who will receive Him, just because one person or billions refuse Him. Every last person still has free-will. The choice is there because you really do have the choice to accept Christ. Stop believing in Satan who says you can't, that you are preprogrammed to reject Christ. That's a lie. Satan is the greatest liar there ever was.


This would make more sense for the creators of this particular religion to construct it this way, but they didn't, that is creating an offset of a religion based on a religion...it is another protestant denomination.
Molinism not another religion, but just the word to explain how God in Scripture reconciles His infinite foreknowledge with free-will. You even admit that makes sense. It makes sense, because this is God's Word how God saves, an advanced explanation of osas arminian.


Not if he knows the outcome ahead of time...who lives, who dies (by this I mean heaven or hell)
Yes, God foreknows, but not making you a robot. He foreknows your free-choice. The wonder of God is that He is able to do this. Did you grow up in a Calvinist denomination? Calvinism is designed to turn you off of Christ, so that is maybe why you got a false impression, for Calvinism misrepresents God of the Bible.


I can see how you would come to this conclusion, sorry about being a little vague. I do not believe you are all robots, rather scared for your own butt. I also believe in free will because of the absence of a God.
How would fear nullify your belief in robots? You should know when I got saved, I had no fear. All I could see was the love of God and how all things are summed up in Christ. After being saved I appreciated more reverence for the Lord which is the fear of the Lord. Whereas the reason you don't give your life to Christ is because you are "scared for your own butt" to give up control you have over self and place your trust in Christ.

Here is the problem. Before you were arguing against free-will which only leads to robots, but now you are arguing for free-will which is a contradiction in your behavior. The Bible says be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8). I can understand why you jump around like that because no matter what you have to reject God and call Christ a liar. With an absence of God it is not free-will, for how can free-will come out of non-free-will of the universe? That's illogical. You can have an idol of free-will you place above God like Satan did who places his choices above God and tempt Eve in the Garden with the enticement to reject God.

May you yet one day give your life to Christ.

[DD2014]

LOL!!!


That is the nature of someone going to Hell.

Wow dude, I didn't know you could go to hell for not knowing a word. When was ignorance deemed a unforgivable sin? (talk about a "just" god)

[Churchwork]

I don't think it is funny you are going to Hell. I think it is pathetic.

You're not going to Hell for not knowing a word, but for belligerency and obstinacy towards God "with every thing you say." You yet can be saved, so what makes you think this hostility you have to God is unforgivable? God would not be "just" if you could not yet be saved before you leave your body of flesh and blood so why misrepresent Him?

You didn't respond to the main body of the post.