Churchwork
04-06-2009, 06:26 PM
Their beliefs, or your ironic dismissal of them, have no bearing upon the fallacious line of reasoning that you are both using. There is no justification for special pleading, it is a fallacy, and failable 'proof' of your beliefs does not change that.
Can you be any more vague with verbiage, assumptions and accusations? Deal with the specific data. We can only go with the evidence and let it lead us where it may. No evidence for scientology aliens, no evidence for something in nature happening all by itself; ergo, there is only one known available possibility, the uncreated created. This is Jesus since no naturalistic theory can account for the resurrection claims in various group settings. To deny this is just special pleading.
Shifting the burden of proof does not address the problem of your position. I am not making an assertion.
You didn't identify any problem with my position, but I have given you the reason cited above for why your position is false and a doctrine of demons. Hence, the burden is not shifted to you, but belongs on you.
Then your analogy is particularly contrived and not applicable. i.e. It's a loaded question.
You don't show it be loaded or contrived, but quite applicable because it was the condition Israel was faced with amongst tribes in Canaan that practiced human sacrifices, killing and pillaging, and attacking Israel for the sake of their gods. The hostility to the monotheistic God of the Hebrews threatened their way of life of throwing their children into the fiery mouth of Molech.
No true scottsman fallacy.You are committing this fallacy, because you redefine what a Christian is. Scriptures say once-saved-always-saved: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand" (John 10.27-29).
Please don't form arguments by misrepresenting God's Word. That violates Step 3 of the 4 Step Perfect Proof for God (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/perfectproof.htm) of the Bible. It also shows you are being disingenuous and not coming to the table with sincerity and a concerted effort for the truth with an honest heart.
The fact that there are native societies that do not carry notions of gods outright refutes your 'god-consciousness' concept. Additionally, people who do not worship your god do not worship something else to replace your god as a consequence - that is pure, unbridled ignorance of what exactly your god means to people who don't believe it, and of any concept of how people, or the world, work outside the concept of your faith.
The overwhelming case is for societies that worship what they deem to be God. Atheistic beliefs are the exception not the rule. Even in atheistic societies many people still worship what they deem to be God in their God-consciousness. Human beings have this inherent characteristic in their inner man to sense God's existence. Even atheists do too because they form the idea of atheism to try to shut their minds down to what their own consciences are telling them about an uncreated Creator so they don't have to have accountability. Over 90% of the religions or views are comprised of Christendom, Atheist/Agnosticism, Islam, Hinduism/Buddhism. The facts speak loud and clear. Even the leading and most published atheist of the 20th century is no longer an atheist. Way to go Antony Flew. You're smarter than him right? You need some humility. God will harden your heart further if you remain as you are.
Some of the world's greatest philanthropists are atheists. That does not justify it.
I am not saying an atheist can't be a philanthropist, but the vast majority are Christians as proven by the fact that most charities are Christian based. Try to understand the point made here.
By this reasoning, you are willfully ignorant of aliens and other gods due to your inability to explain 'eyewitness accounts' of them. I'm sure you can pass them all off as liars or being otherwise mistaken, but that does not speak highly of your apostles.
There is no evidence for aliens so why even go there? In fact, Hugh Ross has compiled 800 factors needed for life to originate on a planet in the universe and multiplying them together the probability of life is effectively impossible. Earth appears to be the only possible place life could exist. God said there are not gods, just Him. These gods you speak of can easily be explained as visionary imaginations of the mind and assumption of idols (again indicating man has God-consciousness, for he is drawn to worship at the very least what he deems to be a god). None of them walk in person as did Jesus and multiply attested by His life, death and resurrection. Do you see the difference between hard evidence and fanciful assumptions? The Apostles spent 3 years with Jesus. John and the women saw Jesus die on the cross. James and Jude were his brothers as all His life and they converted once believing seeing Him resurrected. Joseph of Arimathea, a Jewish Sanhedrin member, buried him.
I attribute the horrors to the god that he advocates, and the god that you are demanding that I follow because he'll do mean things to me if I don't do what he says.
What makes you think He will do mean things to you? Why blame Him for the natural consequences of your own sin, for sin leads to death and the second death which is Hell, and that's your fault, not His? God is simply righteously responding to what you want. You put yourself to Hell, nobody else, but you. In layman's terms, you're a bad guy. Why accuse God of horrors committed by men who are engorged in their sin nature like you do and blame Him for it? It's time to take responsibility for yourself and stop blaming the One who created you.
Though, on second thought, if you believe in the trinity, then the fact that jesus is god means that, yes, he did commit those horrors. Giving with one hand, taking with the other.
What horrors? God eradicates sin. Why do you think it is a horror to eradicate sin of propagating the teaching of continuing child sacrifices? The fact is those nations don't exist anymore, God destroyed them, so the point is mute. You lose. Why are you still defending such evil? Moreover, since these eradications took place anyway, why don't you accuse atheism instead of God? Why the double standard? You you have selective double standards which I find to be highly unethical.
It says alot about his true nature, that's for sure.
Praise the Lord! It also says a lot about your nature and character as a fellow human being that you reject the greatest love ever known. How sad for you.
Atheism is not communism, Hitler was a christian.
How was Hitler Christlike that we may know him by his fruit and where did he profess Jesus as God and Lord and Savior before men? Communism teaches atheism. Stop trying to slither out of these points. Atheism is a lie the produces communism. One lie begets another lie or evil. If I tried to do what you are doing, I'd be embarrassed; so should you be if you had a conscience that was working. Realize the flesh can rationalize anything. Your Hitler could rationalize what he did. Christians by the way don't commit suicide. It's impossible. Hitler committed suicide, and incidentally, not surprisingly, atheists have the highest rate of suicide of any belief system out there. We shall know you by your fruit. If you were a true atheist you might want to consider this characteristic of your faith in keeping with this belief system, for if you kill yourself, it's ok according to you, for it doesn't matter anyway as there would be no consequences for your evil act upon your person. Or in murdering others as your Stalin did. Let's say you nuked 10 cities and killed 10 million people, but nobody found out about what you did. You got married, had kids, found a good job, and life was happy and pleasant after that. Do you think your punishment fits the crime? Of course not. Hence, when you are resurrected, you will spend an eternity in Hell. So is the case for separation from God for those who don't want to be reconciled back to Him.
This is an overdramatization of natural selection as portrayed by nature programs, not an accurate tenant of Evolution or Evolutionary Theory. I suppose that I gave you too much credit to assume that you knew better.
An over dramatizing? Your Hitler, Stalin and Mao killed over 120 million people alone who endorsed natural selection as reason for doing what they did. Inevitably to make an idol out of evolutionary theory, not realizing evolution can't even take place without the first single celled replicating organism, is to endorse natural selection without conscience. Of course you may think you have a conscience, but clearly it is corrupted. You need to get a conscience one quickened with God's life. This problem of your faith is not an over dramatizing, but a real despicable problem.
It's a caricature, thats for sure.Not at all. It's real sinful evil. Your spirit is so dead you can't even see that.
I have pointed out specifically where your god has killed and decieved people. If you have a problem with it, take it up with your scripture.
You have not been able to show this alleged claim, but you are always welcome to try which I would be happy to respond to as I always do for you to help you. What we have established is your atheism kills and deceives people.
You don't want me to address this, it won't be pretty.I would want you to address this instead of trying to be coy and couth, for that is not pretty.
The same reason you can't draw a distinction between any two people who do not believe in your god. The irony is delicious.Why do I have to draw a distinction between two people who believe in God of the Bible, for they are both members of the body of Christ? They are Christians. When you misrepresent someone as being a Christian who is not, you only expose your own mindlessness. That's not delicious as you say, just your ignorant self. Christians can really sense why Hell is needed in talking with someone like you.
I don't see how much clearer I could be.You gave no details. No details is quite vague don't you think? Yet you think that is as clear as you can be? How embarrassing for you. Surely you can do better than being vague as the wind.
I'll retract this. It's a good read, and there are worse books out there.Technically, there is no greater book, for this is the embodiment of the Word of God written on paper. By comparing any text you will find none compare. Challenge yourself to do this.
Demanding worship for safety from a problem that he is responsible for? Yeah, sounds like your cliche villan to me.God is not responsible for your sinning, though He surely will respond to it. Why do you keep blaming God for your own fault? Aren't you the villain for accusing and attacking the good? Man loves to blame, pass responsibility unto others, instead of repenting of his sins. It's time for you to grow up.
The resurrection is not proven. It is not a historical events. Supernatural claims of the bible are not 'historical events'. The fact that you reject other claims made by 'eyewitness account' leaves NO bearing for you to accept it in the special case of your faith.
The resurrection is proven since you can find no naturalistic explanation that fits the data. Yes, these are historical events. Jesus really lived, died and was seen by the disciples and non-believers in various group settings. Nobody is more well documented and attested in antiquity. The historical record has the highest of standards you can ask for and comparing the times and other individuals of prominence. Supernatural events are historical events. They really did happen. There are no other eyewitness accounts for other resurrections to speak of, and you don't present any. Just assuming there are resurrections before Christ walked the earth is special pleading. Jesus is the only one who ever said He is God and proved it by His resurrection raised from the dead. Quite unique don't you think?
Praise the Lord!
Can you be any more vague with verbiage, assumptions and accusations? Deal with the specific data. We can only go with the evidence and let it lead us where it may. No evidence for scientology aliens, no evidence for something in nature happening all by itself; ergo, there is only one known available possibility, the uncreated created. This is Jesus since no naturalistic theory can account for the resurrection claims in various group settings. To deny this is just special pleading.
Shifting the burden of proof does not address the problem of your position. I am not making an assertion.
You didn't identify any problem with my position, but I have given you the reason cited above for why your position is false and a doctrine of demons. Hence, the burden is not shifted to you, but belongs on you.
Then your analogy is particularly contrived and not applicable. i.e. It's a loaded question.
You don't show it be loaded or contrived, but quite applicable because it was the condition Israel was faced with amongst tribes in Canaan that practiced human sacrifices, killing and pillaging, and attacking Israel for the sake of their gods. The hostility to the monotheistic God of the Hebrews threatened their way of life of throwing their children into the fiery mouth of Molech.
No true scottsman fallacy.You are committing this fallacy, because you redefine what a Christian is. Scriptures say once-saved-always-saved: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand" (John 10.27-29).
Please don't form arguments by misrepresenting God's Word. That violates Step 3 of the 4 Step Perfect Proof for God (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/perfectproof.htm) of the Bible. It also shows you are being disingenuous and not coming to the table with sincerity and a concerted effort for the truth with an honest heart.
The fact that there are native societies that do not carry notions of gods outright refutes your 'god-consciousness' concept. Additionally, people who do not worship your god do not worship something else to replace your god as a consequence - that is pure, unbridled ignorance of what exactly your god means to people who don't believe it, and of any concept of how people, or the world, work outside the concept of your faith.
The overwhelming case is for societies that worship what they deem to be God. Atheistic beliefs are the exception not the rule. Even in atheistic societies many people still worship what they deem to be God in their God-consciousness. Human beings have this inherent characteristic in their inner man to sense God's existence. Even atheists do too because they form the idea of atheism to try to shut their minds down to what their own consciences are telling them about an uncreated Creator so they don't have to have accountability. Over 90% of the religions or views are comprised of Christendom, Atheist/Agnosticism, Islam, Hinduism/Buddhism. The facts speak loud and clear. Even the leading and most published atheist of the 20th century is no longer an atheist. Way to go Antony Flew. You're smarter than him right? You need some humility. God will harden your heart further if you remain as you are.
Some of the world's greatest philanthropists are atheists. That does not justify it.
I am not saying an atheist can't be a philanthropist, but the vast majority are Christians as proven by the fact that most charities are Christian based. Try to understand the point made here.
By this reasoning, you are willfully ignorant of aliens and other gods due to your inability to explain 'eyewitness accounts' of them. I'm sure you can pass them all off as liars or being otherwise mistaken, but that does not speak highly of your apostles.
There is no evidence for aliens so why even go there? In fact, Hugh Ross has compiled 800 factors needed for life to originate on a planet in the universe and multiplying them together the probability of life is effectively impossible. Earth appears to be the only possible place life could exist. God said there are not gods, just Him. These gods you speak of can easily be explained as visionary imaginations of the mind and assumption of idols (again indicating man has God-consciousness, for he is drawn to worship at the very least what he deems to be a god). None of them walk in person as did Jesus and multiply attested by His life, death and resurrection. Do you see the difference between hard evidence and fanciful assumptions? The Apostles spent 3 years with Jesus. John and the women saw Jesus die on the cross. James and Jude were his brothers as all His life and they converted once believing seeing Him resurrected. Joseph of Arimathea, a Jewish Sanhedrin member, buried him.
I attribute the horrors to the god that he advocates, and the god that you are demanding that I follow because he'll do mean things to me if I don't do what he says.
What makes you think He will do mean things to you? Why blame Him for the natural consequences of your own sin, for sin leads to death and the second death which is Hell, and that's your fault, not His? God is simply righteously responding to what you want. You put yourself to Hell, nobody else, but you. In layman's terms, you're a bad guy. Why accuse God of horrors committed by men who are engorged in their sin nature like you do and blame Him for it? It's time to take responsibility for yourself and stop blaming the One who created you.
Though, on second thought, if you believe in the trinity, then the fact that jesus is god means that, yes, he did commit those horrors. Giving with one hand, taking with the other.
What horrors? God eradicates sin. Why do you think it is a horror to eradicate sin of propagating the teaching of continuing child sacrifices? The fact is those nations don't exist anymore, God destroyed them, so the point is mute. You lose. Why are you still defending such evil? Moreover, since these eradications took place anyway, why don't you accuse atheism instead of God? Why the double standard? You you have selective double standards which I find to be highly unethical.
It says alot about his true nature, that's for sure.
Praise the Lord! It also says a lot about your nature and character as a fellow human being that you reject the greatest love ever known. How sad for you.
Atheism is not communism, Hitler was a christian.
How was Hitler Christlike that we may know him by his fruit and where did he profess Jesus as God and Lord and Savior before men? Communism teaches atheism. Stop trying to slither out of these points. Atheism is a lie the produces communism. One lie begets another lie or evil. If I tried to do what you are doing, I'd be embarrassed; so should you be if you had a conscience that was working. Realize the flesh can rationalize anything. Your Hitler could rationalize what he did. Christians by the way don't commit suicide. It's impossible. Hitler committed suicide, and incidentally, not surprisingly, atheists have the highest rate of suicide of any belief system out there. We shall know you by your fruit. If you were a true atheist you might want to consider this characteristic of your faith in keeping with this belief system, for if you kill yourself, it's ok according to you, for it doesn't matter anyway as there would be no consequences for your evil act upon your person. Or in murdering others as your Stalin did. Let's say you nuked 10 cities and killed 10 million people, but nobody found out about what you did. You got married, had kids, found a good job, and life was happy and pleasant after that. Do you think your punishment fits the crime? Of course not. Hence, when you are resurrected, you will spend an eternity in Hell. So is the case for separation from God for those who don't want to be reconciled back to Him.
This is an overdramatization of natural selection as portrayed by nature programs, not an accurate tenant of Evolution or Evolutionary Theory. I suppose that I gave you too much credit to assume that you knew better.
An over dramatizing? Your Hitler, Stalin and Mao killed over 120 million people alone who endorsed natural selection as reason for doing what they did. Inevitably to make an idol out of evolutionary theory, not realizing evolution can't even take place without the first single celled replicating organism, is to endorse natural selection without conscience. Of course you may think you have a conscience, but clearly it is corrupted. You need to get a conscience one quickened with God's life. This problem of your faith is not an over dramatizing, but a real despicable problem.
It's a caricature, thats for sure.Not at all. It's real sinful evil. Your spirit is so dead you can't even see that.
I have pointed out specifically where your god has killed and decieved people. If you have a problem with it, take it up with your scripture.
You have not been able to show this alleged claim, but you are always welcome to try which I would be happy to respond to as I always do for you to help you. What we have established is your atheism kills and deceives people.
You don't want me to address this, it won't be pretty.I would want you to address this instead of trying to be coy and couth, for that is not pretty.
The same reason you can't draw a distinction between any two people who do not believe in your god. The irony is delicious.Why do I have to draw a distinction between two people who believe in God of the Bible, for they are both members of the body of Christ? They are Christians. When you misrepresent someone as being a Christian who is not, you only expose your own mindlessness. That's not delicious as you say, just your ignorant self. Christians can really sense why Hell is needed in talking with someone like you.
I don't see how much clearer I could be.You gave no details. No details is quite vague don't you think? Yet you think that is as clear as you can be? How embarrassing for you. Surely you can do better than being vague as the wind.
I'll retract this. It's a good read, and there are worse books out there.Technically, there is no greater book, for this is the embodiment of the Word of God written on paper. By comparing any text you will find none compare. Challenge yourself to do this.
Demanding worship for safety from a problem that he is responsible for? Yeah, sounds like your cliche villan to me.God is not responsible for your sinning, though He surely will respond to it. Why do you keep blaming God for your own fault? Aren't you the villain for accusing and attacking the good? Man loves to blame, pass responsibility unto others, instead of repenting of his sins. It's time for you to grow up.
The resurrection is not proven. It is not a historical events. Supernatural claims of the bible are not 'historical events'. The fact that you reject other claims made by 'eyewitness account' leaves NO bearing for you to accept it in the special case of your faith.
The resurrection is proven since you can find no naturalistic explanation that fits the data. Yes, these are historical events. Jesus really lived, died and was seen by the disciples and non-believers in various group settings. Nobody is more well documented and attested in antiquity. The historical record has the highest of standards you can ask for and comparing the times and other individuals of prominence. Supernatural events are historical events. They really did happen. There are no other eyewitness accounts for other resurrections to speak of, and you don't present any. Just assuming there are resurrections before Christ walked the earth is special pleading. Jesus is the only one who ever said He is God and proved it by His resurrection raised from the dead. Quite unique don't you think?
Praise the Lord!