John 6:37-45

[Brad26]

This thread isn't so much concerned with Total Depravity as it is Irresistible Grace. I noticed there were many different things being discussed and I was curious to see what the rest of you think about what I have been told concerning Irresistible Grace.

I have been studying the debate between Calvinism and Arminianism for about a month now. I found it interesting that at their core they are similar but it seemed that where they split ways was how man was able to get past his sinful nature. The Arminians taught prevenient grace given by God which was extended to all but could be resisted. The Calvinist taught Irresistible Grace which was extended to some and obviously isn't resistible.

I had asked someone about what scripture supported irresistible grace. He told me Romans 8:28-30 and John 6:37-45. I couldn't agree with his explanation of Romans. I think he was reading too much into the text. However, he gave a more detailed explanation of John. Here is what he said.

"Do these passages not prove the doctrine of irresistible grace?

"John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

All the Father gives comes. Irresistible grace part I.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

All that are given shall not only come, but also be kept, not lost, and raised the last day. Irresistible grace part II.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Before you reply to any of this, you would do well to notice who Jesus refers to when He talks about the ones who are given, come, and are raised the last day. Believers, of course.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The fact remains that he who is drawn is he who Jesus will raise the last day. Irresistible grace part III. Finis."

[Churchwork]

At the core they are very different, because they are proposing two different ways of salvation, so much so, that one is not salvation at all. God only saves one way. We shall know them by their fruit, even their teaching, to know if they are of God. So I would suggest don't even assume they ultimately have the same core belief. Refrain from that, and just let the evidence lead where it may. Jacob Arminius believed in once-saved-always-saved, so don't confuse what he taught with the non-OSAS view of the Roman Church.

My immediate thought is whether irresistible grace really grace? Sounds more like bondage and depends on the unfounded theory of total depravity.

Rom. 8.28-30 says God foreknows and predestines, not predestines and then foreknows; never are these the same. If God can only foreknow what He predestines He would not be a very impressive God. Would not God foreknow even our free-will mentioned over 4000 times in the Bible in various ways? Is it really free-will to receive the cross if nobody can receive the cross but must have imposed upon them an irresistible grace? And why save only some, but not all if grace is irresistible? What love is this? That leaves us to only one conclusion, that God foreknows our free-will to accept, which so some do, or to not accept the cross, which most do not.

John 6.37 is not irresistible grace, for it doesn't say how God gives. It only says that God gives. If God pleads with men and makes salvation available to all (unlimited atonement), then irresistible grace cannot be true. Why plead with men when nobody can receive it due to a total depravity? Why pay for all sins if not all sins can be washed? Did you read the analogy of a person in a well to show how this is not loving?

John 6.38-39 does not say how those who are given are never lost. If God foresees our free-choice (conditional election), then those who are saved remain saved forever because their choice was a choice for forever, fulfilling God's requirement condition. When a person is truly saved they truly believed on Jesus without an option to get out of the contract later. Whereas some, like the Roman Church, have a contract to get out of the deal later, even the very next day if they want. Such is a false Christ.

John 6.44 does not say by God's drawing how He draws, whether it be by convincing and convicting to plead with and thus call those He foreknew our free-choice to be saved by grace through faith (resistible grace). God's drawing is His part, whereas our part is also required to meet God and come to Him with an honest heart, not of works, lest any man should boast. Faith is not a work.

So the faith a Calvinist has, though it is not a work, it still leads to unsalvation because they reject the God who can foreknow our free-choice to receive the cross. Calvinists believe in a lesser god, a false Christ, one who not only falsely teaches total depravity, but unlovingly saves some but not others when he could have saved all and should have saved all due his unholy ability of irresistible grace that evidently does not save all. Is it not evil to mockingly plead with men to believe yet have no intention of saving some of them and nobody can receive grace resistibly?

I could go on for days, but I will stop there.