Churchwork
03-20-2007, 02:25 AM
A theist says God is the uncaused cause (common definition) and you say you believe in the uncaused cause, BUT that's a contradiction when you say you don't believe in God (the uncaused cause). How can anyone help you when you contradict yourself?
Simple 4 Step Perfect Proof for God (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/perfectproof.htm)
1) There cannot be an eternity of the past of cause and effects in the natural realm because if there had been you would have had an eternity to be perfected, yet you still sin. Due to the exponential progression in our conscience these past six thousand years, it will not take much longer to reach sinlessness in the saved. Therefore, the uncreated created who is God of the Bible since none can compare to Christ.
2) Nothing in nature happens all by itself, not the big bang, nor a singularity, nor any supposed cycles of the universe, nor any proposed multiple dimensions. Therefore, there is only one possibility available for the cause of our existence and the universe which is the uncreated creator did it who is Christ for none can compare to the 2nd Person of the Trinity.
3) In this perfect proof, please do not waste your time by trying to disprove some god, for then you would not be trying to disprove God of the Bible as you would have thought, but some god with qualities that are not those of the Triune Godhead.
4) There cannot be an eternity of the past either of gods creating gods in the supernatural realm because we would have been derived from that past and would not still be sinning by now due to the exponential progression of conscience. Therefore, know that God did it! He is uncaused and has always existed. It's hard to get your mind around that fact, but we are not meant to understand it, only accept it as the logical conclusion to the evidence for our faith.
Tarry no longer to receive the gift of eternal life.
Churchwork
11-28-2008, 08:20 PM
THE LAST WARNING (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/thelastwarning.htm)
TRY AND ADDRESS THE POINTS
Don't just shut your mind down. Don't make lame excuses. This is the proof which if you can't find fault with, then know that it is true (4 Step Proof for God plus the Minimal Facts Approach proving Jesus is God). As Spock on Star Trek said, if all known possibilities are impossible, then what you thought was impossible must be the cause. The Bible is the proof of God. Don't say the Bible is not allowed to prove itself (the existence of God in Christ), for then no such thing as proof could even exist for anything, since all proofs are designed to prove themselves. Eckhart Tolle (atheist), Oprah Winfrey's guru of her cult, wrote, "there is no such thing as cause and effect", but there are trillions of things with causes in nature and nothing that exists we know of in nature that is without a cause, so it is not wise to shut your mind down to the law of cause and effect.
I'll give you guys a heads up, because I am way ahead of you. Since almost all skeptical scholars (non-Christian) agree in their vast studies that Paul met with the Apostles a few years after Jesus died on the cross and the disciples truly believed they saw Jesus resurrected; some touched Him, ate with Him, walked with Him and talked with Him in His resurrected state, then the only way to disprove it is to come up with a viable theory, but the problem is no viable theory is big enough and able to fill its own holes in its theorizing. Furthermore, there is no evidence for such theories such as the swoon theory, hallucination theory and other popular theories. The overwhelming evidence is Jesus died, was resurrected because He is God, and group hallucinations don't exist in modern day psychology. I love that. Awesome eh?
THERE CAN'T BE AN ETERNITY OF PAST OF CAUSE AND EFFECTS (1)
If there was this supposed eternity of the past of cause and effects (as many atheists assume) then you would have been derived from that past (approximating to it), but the evidence we have for the exponential progression of conscience tells us you would not still be sinning by now. Therefore, the only possibility known to man is there must be the uncreated (uncaused), the Creator who intelligently designed. There are more democracies today, women can vote just this past century, crime rate per capita is down and murder rate per capita is down. Child sacrifices that were once so prevalent among the nations (which God used Israel to stop such evil nations especially in Canaan) is virtually non-existent today. I have a list of over 100 items. Feel free contribute more evidences for the exponential progression of conscience which will help you appreciate this phenomenon further.
THE UNIVERSE CAN'T CAUSE ITSELF (2)
As well, nothing in nature happens all by itself, for there is always a cause in nature, so the universe can't cause itself. Again, this shows there must be the uncreated (uncaused) who is the Creator of the universe. Radioactive decay, for example, decays because of the influences that cause the decaying. Scientists universally recognize this, so those less knowledgeable use this as a coy response, but that's silly as they try to pick the most complicated of processes to deny the law of cause and effect. There are trillions of examples of physical causes and effects. Nothing clearly shown to be without a cause in nature. The cause for the resurrection of Jesus is Himself, since He is the uncreated Creator, proven below by the group eyewitness accounts using the Minimal Facts Approach in which He was seen and touched physically.
DON'T MISREPRESENT GOD (3)
Please pay attention at this point: don't make the unintelligible mistake of arguing against God of the Bible by misreading Him as is so often resorted to out of sheer desperation. Take for example Jesus cursing the fig tree and lessons from the fig tree in the day's of Noah (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Matthew_24.htm) (Matt. 24.32-42). "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh" (Matt. 24.32).
Matt. 24.32 The word “now” marks the beginning of the second part. Since the Lord gives this part of His prophecy on the Mount of Olives—a place where there are many fig trees —He quite naturally could use the fig tree as an illustration. “When her branch is now become tender”—This speaks of the return of life. “And putteth forth its leaves”—This means the manifestation of life. The fig tree represents the Jews (Jer. 24.2,5,8). Earlier the Lord had cursed the fig tree which possessed only leaves but had no fruit. In reality the curse was upon the Jews who possessed the outward rituals but had no reality. “Summer” is the season of growth as winter is the season of withering and death. In the summer, life shows its greatest vigor, the air is warm, and the days are bright. It is a golden season, and therefore it stands for the kingdom. The Jews today are in the winter time. Winter points to tribulation, particularly the Great Tribulation that is near. Spring speaks of rapture (see S.S. 2.10-14); summer speaks of the kingdom (see Luke 21.30-31). In Luke 21.29-30 we have the words “and all the trees”—which phrase represents the nations (see Daniel 4.10-17 and Judges 9.8-15). When “all the trees ... now shoot forth” (Luke 21.29-30), this is a signifying that nationalism will have been greatly developed among many peoples and nations.
We thank the Lord that human character may be changed. It is not something unchangeable. Like Peter, a vacillating person can be transformed into a stable person. Under the burning light of the Lord, your tongue can be so purified that though you were by nature talkative you now become a man of few words. Under the reproach of the Lord, the laziness of the slothful dies out. When the Lord cursed the fig tree, it withered from the root. For where the Lord’s reproach and curse is, there is withering and death. If you have not met the Lord deeply, you may be able to live on in a happy-go-lucky manner. But once you have truly met Him, your flippant nature is shriveled up. By the touch of the Lord’s light, whether it comes by listening to the preaching of God’s word or through the open reproach of a brother, you are undone. At the reproach of the Lord, you come to your end.
THE SUPERNATURAL HAS AN UNCREATED AND UNCAUSED DESIGNER (4)
Whereas (1) dealt with the natural by the exponential progression of conscience, likewise, we would not be sinning to the extent mankind still does if there had been an eternity of the past of cause and effects in a super-natural realm (say gods creating gods). Therefore, applying Occam's razor, the simplest interpretation is the One True God entered into creation in Jesus (2nd Person of the Trinity) to pay the ransom since all sins have to be paid for, sin leads to death and the "second death" (Rev. 2.11; 20.6,14; 21.8) which is hell. You can't cease to exist, because a loving God would not do that after He gave you God-consciousness (proven awareness of Him). Would it really be that difficult for God to do considering He created everything in nature? If man can create computer games with their own player characters in the game, why can't God? The major difference being, this is no game. This is real life and spiritual reality! If man can create computers which produce virtual realities and can shut down with all the essential information stored and then reboot, why can't God reboot us through resurrection? The major difference being we are made in God's image with free-will in our souls (mind, will and emotion (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/SMCFP.htm)) and have a spirit of God-consciousness (functions of intuition, communion and conscience (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/SMCFP.htm)). In fact this is not difficult at all, since God is infinitely greater than us. Wow!
CHRISTIANITY BEST DESCRIBES REALITY
The only view ever presented in human history for the one who meets these qualities of the uncreated Creator AND who proved Himself by His resurrection was Jesus Christ. All other religions, including the religion of self and your own god of your own making (idolatry), have obvious faults with them. Judaism prophesied it would reject it's own Messiah which is Jesus who fulfilled all the necessary prophecies for the Messiah, even the "Son of God (http://biblocality.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5255&postcount=1)": "I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee" (Ps. 2.7). Islam can't come along six centuries later with one guy in a cave all by himself, who rejected the perfect sacrifice for our sins, claiming Jesus didn't die on the cross, without any evidence to support his claim. And Hinduism/Buddhism are false because their theory is if you sin too much you could come back as a frog, but then if you are good frog, you can come back as a human. This cycles theory doesn't effectively deal with sin and it violates the exponential progression of conscience. Judaism, Islam and Hinduism/Buddhism all have one thing in common. They are salvation by works (of self) not by faith. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2.8-9). A sinner can't save himself, for he is the cause of his own problem and predicament. Including atheism and agnosticism, we have covered over 90% of all religious views. Since God would make Himself easily accessible, there is no need to consider mystery religions, seemingly endless number of cults and other religions that are unavailable to most of human society. What is most astounding, is only in Christianity do you see the death, burial and resurrection of the "Saviour of all men" (1 Tim. 4.10); there were no resurrection accounts prior to Jesus. Just as Adam brought all men into himself by his first disobedience, Jesus died for the sins of "the whole world" (1 John 2.2) which brings everyone's death into Himself. All things are summed up in Christ. He is the first and the last, the Alpha and the Omega, operating outside of time and space, but He can enter time and space as well. The Church is the body of Christ, the most precious thing on earth which the Bible describes as the pearl of great price. Until Jesus returns, this is His leading conscience in the world.
THE RESURRECTION ACCOUNTS PROVE JESUS IS GOD
Without worrying about the inerrancy of the Bible (called the Minimal Facts Approach), realize you can't disprove the multiple eyewitness accounts in various group settings of the resurrected Jesus which almost all skeptical scholars agree, the eyewitness accounts genuinely believed their claims (as evident by their martyrdom and the Church was built on the resurrection of Jesus), then if you can't find an alternative explanation, realize your testimony is as follows...you are going to Hell for rejecting the perfect ransom, greatest love, and only solution for your sins by what Jesus did for you on the cross. C. S. Lewis wrote that there are only 3 possibilities: Jesus is who He says He is (God), a liar or lunatic. We see Jesus being of sound mind and body more than anyone, without sin, so he was not a lunatic and liars don't willingly go to their deaths (that is, at the hands of another) as all he would have needed to do was recant His claims of being God. Even Paul said (along with James the brother of Jesus, Peter, John, Stephen who was martyred, James one of the twelve original disciples who was martyred, and the others apostles, including women apostles) if he is lying about seeing Jesus resurrected (1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1 & 2), Christians are the most despicable people, but if he is telling the truth, then Jesus does atone for your sins and gives eternal life whosoever is willing to repent to the cross and believe in Him. Furthermore, he states in 1 Cor. 15 most of those who said they saw Jesus resurrected are still alive today and can confirm these eyewitness accounts so you are free to go check with them.
Most critical scholars believes these 12 items:
1. Jesus died by crucifixion.
2. He was buried.
3. His death caused the disciples to despair and lose hope.
4. The tomb was empty (the most contested).
5. The disciples had experiences which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus (the most important proof).
6. The disciples were transformed from doubters to bold proclaimers.
7. The resurrection was the central message.
8. They preached the message of Jesus’ resurrection in Jerusalem.
9. The Church was born and grew.
10. Orthodox Jews who believed in Christ made Sunday their primary day of worship.
11. James was converted to the faith when he saw the resurrected Jesus (James was a family skeptic).
12. Paul was converted to the faith (Paul was an outsider skeptic).
Therefore, if you deny any of these 12 points (without evidence to support your denial), realize you are just shutting your mind down to the evidence. Jesus appeared 12 times to different group sizes ranging from just one person to 500 people:
1) Mary Magdalene (Mark 16.9-11; John 20.11-18)
2) the other women at the tomb (Matthew 28.8-10)
3) Peter in Jerusalem (Luke 24.34; 1 Cor. 15.5)
4) The two travelers on the road (Mark 16.12,13)
5) Ten disciples behind closed doors (Mark 16.14; Luke 24.36-43; John 20.19-25)
6) All the disciples, with Thomas (excluding Judas Iscariot) (John 20.26-31; 1 Cor. 15.5)
7) Seven disciples while fishing (John 21.1-14)
8) Eleven disciples on the mountain (Matthew 28.16-20)
9) A crowd of 500 (1 Cor. 15.6)
10) Jesus' brother James (1 Cor. 15.7)
11) Those who watched Jesus ascend to heaven (Luke 24.44-49; Acts 1.3-8)
12) Least of all Paul as though he was not living in the proper time (1 Cor. 15.8-9; Gal. 1.13-16; Acts 9.1-8, 22.9, read all of chapters 22 and 26; 13.30-37; 1 Cor. 15.10-20; Gal. 2.1-10).
Luke has no problem between Paul's appearance and those made to the disciples in Luke 24, Acts 1.1-11. Luke records both types of appearances of Jesus to the disciples and to Paul. "Last of all he was seen of me also" (1 Cor. 15.8). "Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord?" (1 Cor. 9.1). Others saw the light and heard the voice during Paul seeing Jesus bodily, however because Paul's experience was post-ascension, it may be slightly different. Evolution of a resurrection theory actually devolved from the accounts of the 40 days with the disciples to when Paul saw Jesus (Gal. 1.15-16). "To reveal His Son in me" (Gal. 1.16,18) took three years following the Damascus road experience. Don't mistake this portion as being the bodily appearance. "And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man" (Acts 9.7). This presumes that Paul saw the man. Now if so many people saw Jesus resurrected, is it really so hard to believe the saved will be resurrected at the consummation of the age of the dispensation of grace-the end of the mystery age of the church? And the unsaved will be resurrected for perdition.
FREE-WILL
The only possible conclusion: you were created by the Trinity of God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit; and the only way to the Father is through the Son. If salvation by your Creator is not something you want, then you are going to Hell, because you can't cease to exist, nor would a loving God allow you to be with His own. God created Hell for you, because He foresees you would always reject Him by your own free-will (assuming you never come to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive the Lord Jesus as your Savior). How you respond to Christ and Christians in this life will determine how and where you live your life in the next. For Jesus said how you treat one these, you are treating Him also. Those who are saved were chosen by God before the foundations of the world. God foreknew our free-choice to love Him. And He could foresee your choice to despise Him. Faith is a gift from God has a cause and that cause is you to be able to obtain it. Whatever you place most importance in that is what you worship most by faith. You are caused by God to have the choice by your own free-will, so you have nobody to blame but yourself.
"We have also obtained access by faith into this grace" (Rom. 5.2), "for by grace are ye saved through faith" (Eph. 2.8). Anyone can access or activate this gift of faith because it is freely given by grace whosoever is willing to receive it: "whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely" (Rev. 22.17). Jesus is represented by the water here. Some people have faith (such as atheists) in things they can't prove, and the proof is against them like the 4 Step Proof for God well testifies. But Christians have faith in that which is proven, so we go with the evidence and don't fight it, but give into the truth. Praise the Lord! Jesus delays His return so the fullness of the gentiles can come. God is a realistic God, not a God of parlor tricks, so if you want to remain belligerent, God gives you the free-choice to reject the best historians have to offer objectively for historical proof. The lawyer who has won the most court cases in a row in the Guinness Book of Records says the case for the death, burial, resurrection and deity of Jesus is the best case he has ever seen and meets all the stringent requirements to build a case on. Ask yourself, in a murder trial, does the person have to come back to life to prove they are dead? If the evidence is there to prove it, of course not. The same is true of His resurrection, because of the multiple attestation in various group settings which modern day psychology says group hallucinations are impossible. Therefore, the only viable possible explanation is Jesus was raised from the dead, because He is God. Praise the Lord!
IT'S NOT TOO LATE TO GIVE YOUR LIFE TO CHRIST
It's too late after you leave your body of flesh and blood. You get this one life to decide. Don't think you will have a change of mind later. Trust me, you won't. The reason you are here is because you are drawn by your intuitive conscience deep down inside for it knows what is at stake. Heed that inner voice of reason in your conscience and stop fighting it, because ultimately it comes down to your decision what you want, and your conscience is God's lowest standard for you today to know He exists. If you can't even meet that, then you know you deserve Hell. You have a spirit of God-consciousness, so you are without excuse. Satan is too self-centered, self-righteous and he is a compulsive liar even though he knows God created. Remind you of anyone? Jesus said He makes a liar out of you if you still insist in not accepting Him as the 2nd Person of the Trinity. When you come before God at Great White Throne to be judged after you are resurrected at the end of the millennial kingdom (Rev. 20.2-7), of course, He will judge you, you will listen and succumb to His decision and verdict, just like we have to lock up prisoners in jail for life. "Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven" (Matt. 6.10). You may not like the verdict, but you will know it is the right thing for God to do. Though you can sense God's righteousness, holiness and sense of justice, you want no part in His uncreated life. You belong in Hell and in Hell is where you shall stay for all eternity, eternally separated from the love of God and God Himself. Your choice was a choice in this life for eternity whether you want to be born-again a new creation of God, to have a new life (eternal life)-the ability to know God and promise of eternal blessings.
THE LAST WARNING
This is a warning to anyone who is not yet saved: everyone living in their old man, their old nature, the old creation, the selfish sin nature and animal life! "For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost" (Matt. 18.11). That includes everyone, though not all receive Him. "What must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved" (Acts 16.30-31). "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" (John 3.18). God lets you choose, so if all else being equal you remain as you are, then you are condemned already. If all God needed to do was give you one more piece of proof of Himself and Jesus being God, He would have done it. This shows if you don't accept the already well documented evidence of the historical and resurrected Jesus who is recorded better than anyone in antiquity, and you still can't disprove God's claims, what else do you have except to wait for Hell? If you can't disprove these findings by this evidence, then why shut your down to the decision you know you ought to make to receive Christ into your life? Delusion is believing something contrary to the evidence. Is the reason you have not believed in Him yet because you are too selfish, self-centered, self-exalted, self-righteous and prefer to remain that way against God's will? What love is this?
THE WORLD MARTYRS CHRISTIANS AND IS HOSTILE TO THE JEWS (OUR LITTLE BROTHER)
Realize the Roman Church and Calvin (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Revelation_17.htm) killed many Christians. The martyrdom of the Biblical Church has been ongoing throughout the centuries, particularly intense during the 2nd century Smyrna church period (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/7churches.htm) and by the Roman Church. Atheists such as Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot killed not just Christians, but many people who did not believe in what they believed in. Atheists and non-Christians killed over 200 million people in the 20th century alone having nothing to do with religion, but to gain territorial power and resources. And they almost annihilated the nation of Israel, the first nation God revealed Himself to, but the prophecy is fulfilled (http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2388). Israel has returned, even though it took 2500 years. Now that is a miracle! Where has that happened before for a people who were dispersed for over two millennia without a nation? And there are more prophecies yet to be fulfilled before the Son of Man returns to reign in Person on earth for a very long time. This reigning with an "iron rod" (mentioned 3 times in Revelation) by the Son of Man on earth from the Temple in Jerusalem could be millions if not billions of years. Or, it could be exactly 1000 literal years (Rev. 20.2-7). My view is it will be billions of years because the Bible says the earth will at the end of that time be without the sea (21.1). Afterwards, the new city and new earth commence where there is no more need of the Temple, because God and the Lamb will replace the temple at the center of the New City, but the unsaved have no part in this (Rev. 21.1-8).
Jesus did not kill anyone. All He did was turn over the tables of the money changers in the Temple with His holy and righteous rebuke. Hitler tried to disprove God because if he could annihilate Israel, he would show the promise the Bible has for Israel to be the center of all nations as false, but he failed. Islam today seeks the same mission wanting to wipe her off the face of the earth, but God doesn't allow it. Isn't it amazing, Islam tries to wipe Israel out every 10 years or so in a major offensive, but they fail even though Israel's land and people are just a tiny fraction of Islam. The main prophecy is God is going to have Israel build His temple in Jerusalem on the Temple Mount (http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1907) and tear down the Dome on the Rock. Nothing can stop this from happening. It is from the Temple that Jesus will reign and ends the Great Tribulation at the end of this age.
How true the prophecy is that Israel will be the test of the nations. During the Great Tribulation the nations of the earth will come against Israel and overrun her, but for only 42 months, after which time Jesus resets their right to the land of Israel permanently.
Parture
09-24-2010, 11:57 AM
Perfect Proof for God
Since nature has been proven to always have a cause by the overwhelming preponderance of evidence beyond a reasonable doubt of trillions and trillions of cause and effects, and no hard evidence something comes from nothing, this necessarily leads to an infinite regress, but you would have happened already having had an eternity to do so; so therefore, there cannot be an eternity of the past of cause and effects. Pure and simple! Since nature can't always have existed, that which is outside of nature-time, space and matter-necessarily must be the cause. This is whom we call God.
So the question then becomes who is God? Many can claim to be God or make claims about who God is, but unless they have some evidence they need not be considered. Forget about any claims where God is not intelligent, personal and accessible, for how can God's standards be lower than our own? Any belief system that does not effectively address sin would be deficient. By holding out for the future there could be some evidence to prove God does not exist eventually requires that you be all-knowing but only God could be all-knowing.
Only does Jesus prove He is God! After saying He is God and predicting His death and resurrection, the original disciples testified to having seen Him alive from the dead in various group settings. Since all naturalistic explanations are impossible, then no naturalistic explanation can account for their testimony. Hence, Jesus rose from the dead proving His deity as the uncreated Creator, that He died on the cross for the sins of the world and salvation is only through Him. No atonement would be satisfactory unless it was God Himself. If a person is unwilling to come to the cross as a helpless sinner, they are saying they want to be eternally separated from God.
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