The Facts of Life - 7 Steps to Believe in God

[Churchwork]

Step 1 Fact: There has to be an uncreated Creator because nothing in nature happens all by itself.

Step 2 Fact: That which is uncreated is eternal, and that which is eternal is all-knowing, outside space and time.

Step 3 Fact: You have free-will since you can choose either way. Experientially we employ our free-choice all day long.

Step 4 Fact: God foreknows your free-choice because He is all-knowing.

Step 5 Fact: You are a sinner; otherwise jails, for example, would not be needed.

Step 6 Fact: If you choose to not to accept Christ, you shall die in your sins and get to spend eternity in hell. Lucky you.

Step 7 Fact: Since you are appointed once to die, you get this one life to decide what you want, either heaven through the ransom paid by Christ and His resurrection or an eternal condemnation in Hell.

It's all about your choice. Good choosing!

[p19]

Step 1 Fact: There has to be an uncreated Creator because nothing in nature happens all by itself.

Do not agree.

The law of cause is only applicable in an appropriate context. This context is this universe. There may be some cause of this universe, or not.

If you have to apply the law of cause to the universe, why not apply it to God?

It may be something outside the universe that caused the universe, but it does not necessarily mean it itself is uncaused/uncreated.


Step 2 Fact: That which is uncreated is eternal, and that which is eternal is all-knowing, outside space and time.

Do not agree.

I do not agree that what has created/caused the universe has to be uncreated/uncaused. Neither do I agree that something outside this universe has to be eternal, since eternal implies time, and time is undefined outside the universe. Neither does something eternal need to be all-knowing.


Step 3 Fact: You have free-will since you can choose either way. Experientially we employ our free-choice all day long.

Maybe.

Free will something very philosophical. I do believe that, from a person's perspective, the person have a free will. However I also think that it is, in theory, possible to predict what another person will do.

Free will or not, it's not a proof of God's existence.


Step 4 Fact: God foreknows your free-choice because He is all-knowing.

An all-knowing being knows everything, yes. Not that it is a proof of this beings existence.



Step 5 Fact: You are a sinner; otherwise jails, for example, would not be needed.

Do not agree completely.

Two things: Me, myself, have never been to jail. Therefore I'm not a sinner?

Secondly; sin is not well defined for me. I know Christians have a well-defined definition of sin, however I do not.

I think the reason we have jails is because some people think it will reduce crime. Crime is due to the bad sides of the human nature. It's probably that (the bad sides of humans) I would call evil or sinful.

However, it's not a proof of God, either true or false.


Step 6 Fact: If you choose to not to accept Christ, you shall die in your sins and get to spend eternity in hell. Lucky you.

If God exist... And he is the god described in the bible... probably.

If God does not exist, however it's probably not so.


Step 7 Fact: Since you are appointed once to die, you get this one life to decide what you want, either heaven through the ransom paid by Christ and His resurrection or an eternal condemnation in Hell.

If God exist.

I must say that after reading these 7 steps I believe no more in a God, sorry.

[Churchwork]

The law of cause is only applicable in an appropriate context. This context is this universe. There may be some cause of this universe, or not.

Since the universe only has causes and nothing can happen all by itself in the universe, neither can the universe happen all by itself or be without a cause. Furthermore, there cannot be an eternity of the past of cause and effects prior to the universe because the universe would experience far greater heat death than it does now if it was derived from an eternity of the past since it would approximate to that past as effectively having existed for nearly an eternity. And man would not still be sinning to the extent he still does due to the exponential progression of conscience (Step 1 of the 4 Step Proof for God).


If you have to apply the law of cause to the universe, why not apply it to God?

Since you have to apply the law of cause and effect to the universe due to the preponderance of evidence of trillions of causes and nothing shown to be without a cause, therefore, you come to the reasonable conclusion the uncreated must exist. God is the name we give the Intelligence Designer who is uncreated.


It may be something outside the universe that caused the universe, but it does not necessarily mean it itself is uncaused/uncreated.

That's why you go to Step 4 of the 4 Step Proof for God (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/perfectproof.htm) which applies the same principle of heat death and exponential progression of conscience to outside the universe if there was an eternity of the past of cause and effects.


I do not agree that what has created/caused the universe has to be uncreated/uncaused. Neither do I agree that something outside this universe has to be eternal, since eternal implies time, and time is undefined outside the universe. Neither does something eternal need to be all-knowing.

By eternal is meant always existing, i.e. "uncreated." The uncreated necessarily would have to know all things because all things in the created exist because of Him.

Time can't come into existence all by itself. It has a cause.

Notice your doublestandard. You deny God can exist forever but you accept there can be an eternity of the past and effects without God. Yours is impersonal and violates heat death and the exponential progression of conscience and you don't know how to get from non-intelligence to intelligence (such as human beings). You draw a blank there.


Free will something very philosophical. I do believe that, from a person's perspective, the person have a free will. However I also think that it is, in theory, possible to predict what another person will do.

Free will or not, it's not a proof of God's existence.

God can predict what everyone does. He is all-knowing. The fact of realizing you have free will is to know God is a powerful God able to do this and therefore, you don't have an excuse to reject God for being a god of robots for that would be misrepresenting Him (Step 3 of the 4 Step Proof for God), which is why Calvinism is a lie.


An all-knowing being knows everything, yes. Not that it is a proof of this beings existence.
It is proof of His existence, for that would be strange that an uncreated Creator would not be all knowing. Then you know that would be a false God.


Two things: Me, myself, have never been to jail. Therefore I'm not a sinner?
Not all sin leads to jail on earth, but all imprisonments are due to sin. Even one little sin will eternally separate you from God if you refuse His atonement to reconcile you back to Him.


Secondly; sin is not well defined for me. I know Christians have a well-defined definition of sin, however I do not.
For the purpose of proving God and Jesus is God, you don't need a a list of sins, but just to know sin exists.


I think the reason we have jails is because some people think it will reduce crime. Crime is due to the bad sides of the human nature. It's probably that (the bad sides of humans) I would call evil or sinful.

However, it's not a proof of God, either true or false.

The bad sin of the human nature is called the sin nature. Jails exist not only because people think it is a deterrent, but because sometimes we just have no choice. It must be done. Some people belong in jail for life. They are unredeemable folks out there because they don't want redemption.

Ergo, you are a sinner.


If God exist... And he is the god described in the bible... probably. If God does not exist, however it's probably not so.

Since God has been proven, you have no excuse. Like God said in the Bible He is not far from any one of us and all you need do to prove He exists is observe nature. That's what I have done and you couldn't challenge it, so unless you repent to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior, you will surely be resurrected and go to Hell, consciously aware of your eternally separation from God with billions of other unsaved souls. Basically, Hell is simply God giving you what you want.


If God exist. I must say that after reading these 7 steps I believe no more in a God, sorry.

God was absolutely proven, so you have no excuse. The reason you still shut your mind down is because it is just as Jesus said you are "condemned already" (John 3.18). And you strengthen the faith of Christians by your inability to disprove the proof for God and unwittingly help lead others to Christ by your inability.

Just realize the reason you don't choose Christ is because you don't come to God with an honest heart. A way to have an honest heart would be to realize sincerely and logically you were unable to disprove the proof for God or the resurrection of Christ Jesus proving He is God and atoned for sins. Self is your center not the One Who created you. Ultimate that is self-worship (http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6008#post6008). Did you create yourself? Of course not.