Agnostic

[Stis]

I am leaning agnostic, as I find the fallibility of man never seems to falter, and it is difficult for me to fathom the world as it exists having come from an infallible being, though I by no means reject this premise.

I have some questions regarding the historicity of the Bible, though none regarding the existence of Jesus, as, whether or not he was the Messiah, he almost certainly existed.

I have a deep interest in ethics, many tenets of which I feel can be derived from outside any religious context, and one of my hang-ups with the Bible comes from the atrocities (by modern standards) perpetrated by God in the Old Testament.

I am interested in intellectual discussion with Christians who are not only Christian but Christ-like in their actions and worldview, and hope this forum can be the source of meaningful discussion, and that I will not be treated as a fool for my notions. I do not think religion is a problem, nor do I have any problems with it, or people accepting things as fact based upon faith, however, in discussions, it does not seem like a valid logical connection to say that since I do not subscribe to the idea of biblical infallibility, I cannot contribute anything meaningful to conversation.

Best wishes,
Stis

[Churchwork]

It's all about how you think about these things properly.

Today's modern standards can't be applied to the standards in antiquity entirely. For example, the reason God wanted Israel to annihilate several nations in Canaan is because they engaged in child sacrifices. Israel came into that land as judgment upon those evil nations. Today, if a tribe of people engaged in human sacrifices, we wouldn't kill them all, but cease control of them to stop them. But in antiquity, what would happen is the next generation would grow up and continue such heinous acts and war to protect their beliefs. To validate God's response through Israel as righteous, know that of all those nations in Canaan, only Israel remains.

The uncreated Creator is proven because nothing in nature happens all by itself, so the universe can't cause itself. There is only one option. The uncreated Creator exists. He intelligently designed. Knowing this, discover where He has revealed Himself.

You don't need to worry yourself initially with whether the Bible is inerrant. Focus just on the fact most skeptical scholars agree Paul was being genuine in Gal. 1 & 2, 1 Cor. 15 in which he said he saw Jesus resurrected and met with the Apostles who gave the same testimony in various group settings. If there is no way to explain it away, then it is probably true. There are no incidents of group hallucinations in human history and delusion doesn't fit the explanation because delusions are non-visual. Hence, we are led to Christ if we are genuine about the evidence leading us no matter how difficult it may be to accept.

Ask yourself what you value most in life? This is what you effectively worship, thus it is your religion, and it is what you place above God. Nothing should ever be placed above Him. An atheist would have the worship of puff the magic dragon, the universe happened all by itself, shutting his mind down to the transcendent causal agent so that there are not supernatural causes at work or eternal consequences. This feeds his self life and sin nature and "good self". The good self is salvation by works. You could do something really good, but if God never led you to do it, it is all in vain. It is a way to prop yourself by your own strength instead of relying on God's strength and His leading by the Holy Spirit for your life specifically.

Because people are fallible, there is a cause for this. It is because we are not God. Furthermore, the fist God-conscious man (Adam and Eve) rebelled, thus sin begets sin and moves through the generations until it is finally done away with through God's redemptive design.

So far the points you listed for your atheism or concerns about the Bible are unwarranted. If you acknowledge this, that's a first good step.

[tomvale13]

I'm not much of a fan of this blind fanatacism,

I think in the end of the day, the most evil people in the world are those who are blindly ignorant, against education, redacted in their mindsets and literally harmful to those who do not believe what they do.

I am an atheist, I work hard 6 days a week, I pay my bills, I am endlessly doing everything I can for my friends and family, I am always positive and friendly to everyone I meet, I use sarcasm only in jest and am well liked by all.

I think its far healthier to be your own person, realise that at the end of the day you have to answer to yourself, you own your actions.

Being responsible is how I will raise my children, not to be delusional and intrusive to those around them.

Which one sounds more akin to original christian values?

I remember when being Christian was seen as a good thing, thanks to fanatacism and an insistance in blind, unwavering faith at the cost of all else, we are left with people who are using Christianity and God as their scapegoat whilst pedalling racism, narcissism, homophobia and it is just plain scary.

America, please - get a grip of your country.

[Churchwork]

Aren't you the blind fanatic for believing in atheism, since there is nothing in nature that happens all by itself and nothing to support your belief? Aren't you one of those you profess against, preventing the education of this fact about this narcissism of making self the center of the universe?

Since you are sinner, you can't save yourself. How arrogant to think so. By faith alone in Christ shall we be saved, not by works, lets any man should boast. Isn't that what you are doing is boasting in self? How good and how great you are! How vain. God provides the real solution which you reject. How can you help others if you can't even help yourself?

You ought not to have any hangups by the powerful and effective and necessary actions committed by God to stop the atrocities of human sacrifices of nations generation after generation that would not cease without such actions.

You don't want to be called a fool, but God calls you a fool...

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. (Ps. 14.1)

Without faith it is impossible to be well-pleasing unto him; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that seek after him. (Heb. 11.6)

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin. (Rom. 3.19-20)

Hebrews 11.6 declares that “he that cometh to God must believe that he is.” Moreover, I would also like to touch upon the words of Psalm 14.1: “The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.” Actually the question of whether there is a God need not be answered, since the Bible never argues this point at all. The Bible takes for granted that men must believe in God because they have no reason not to believe so. It treats this matter as something already given. Nevertheless, there is today in this world a class of people who consider themselves atheists. They say there is no God, neither do they acknowledge there is a God who rules over all things. Such a contention seems to be quite popular these days and is warmly welcomed by a large number of people. Those who say these things appear to have minds newer than the rest of mankind and an ability superior to the general public; they therefore dare to assert such things. Before I attempt to burst their “intellectual bubble” let us recognize the several different kinds of atheists there are. For although most atheists would probably not accept such a classification as will be presented here, we as more objective observers are clearer than they themselves.

What does the Bible say about these atheist fools (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/there_is_a_God.htm)?
The Bible does say to look at the mountains and stars to ask yourself, did you do that? As if to say, such a glorious universe, and there always being a cause, obviously the universe can't just cause itself. And therefore, there is only one available possibility, there must be an uncreated Creator who intelligently designed.

You have to answer not only to your own conscience but your Creator. These are not mutually exclusive. Both are applicable.

You are being delusional and intrusive to your children because you don't share the truth, the full gospel of salvation to them, but keep it under cover and concealed. These are not Christian values.

Never blame Christianity for false Christians. That is disingenuous. Christians don't accuse atheists of being false atheists. Treat others as you would like to be treated. You need to let go of the grip you have on your own self, and give it up for God who wants to lead your life, save you and give you His life. It is about giving up selfish control of you. It can be very scary to let go for Christ. But only then will you be saved.

[tomvale13]

Hahahaha,

you are hilarious! Give up control of myself?

Pretty sure that would lead to many serious life problems.

You see I have no safety net, if I fall - I pick myself back up again.

This is why I am a responsible adult who can think for himself, heck - I even make my own decisions!


You are being delusional and intrusive to your children because you don't share the truth, the full gospel of salvation to them, but keep it under cover and concealed. These are not Christian values.
Ahem, I do not have children - I am only 24 and am still exploring this interesting world.

And your version of 'Truth' be a terribly subjective one - I must say.

For someone so caught up on 'Truth' you're terribly good at overlooking the basic fundamentals of science - more evidence than anything your religion offers, might I add?

I am starting to see why this forum consists of just you, spouting blind nothings at anyone whoe dareth suggest something scientificly correct or anyone cycnical of the many fallibilities of your 'faith'.

You are taking the bible so far out of context it could be seen as a book dercying war against all.

Did you know English was not the first human language?

Did you know things get lost in translation?

Because besides the fact that the bible could have lost some detail or gotten some facts wrong in translation is moot, you've translated the ENGLISh version wrong, in your own deluded head.

I do hope you can someday see the error of your ways, you get one life buddy - why waste it so?

You should travel, see the world, have fun - but not at the cost of your concience, be responsible - after all, thats the main problem here.

You answer for your actions, not anyone else. You are repsonsible.

You are doing a great disservice to true, kind hearted Christians and all other religions with this ridiculous fan-fare.

Are you just bored with life and this is why you do this?

Me thinks a truly happy person would not need such false fulfillment, born from the hatred of all else.

[Churchwork]

Not giving up control of yourself is what leads to life problems, such as overassuming and pride, arrogance and so forth. Let your life be led by the Holy Spirit is according to God's perfect will.

You are a sinner. All humans do to pick themselves up. God affords us all this strength, but that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about the fact that sin leads to death and the second death which is hell, and all sin gets punished, so if you don't accept the perfect penalty for all your sins, you will go to hell. God can't have you before Him in your present state. You must be clothed with His righteousness before you can come before Him.

By doing God's will according to His Word, He will grace with more strength than you have now to keep yourself up. It only makes sense if you are doing His will by the Holy Spirit, following His guidance in your spirit. Works of the flesh can not save the soul.

You said how you will raise your children, so I responded how you will raise your children is unfair and unloving to them because you will conceal the gospel of unsalvation to them. How sad.

There is no subjectivity in the objective truth that Jesus died and was resurrected for it was multiply attested and you couldn't disprove it.

All of science proves creation, for the complexity of the cell is amazing, and there is not enough atoms in the universe to by chance create even one protein molecule let alone a thousand for the simplest life form. Go into your kitchen and take apart your toaster then put it in a box. Shake it up and see if it comes back together.

Science simply doesn't agree with you that something can happen all by itself. Science tells us that there is always a cause in nature.

There are thousands of forums on the internet that are sparse. People generally flock to already popular forums, plus these forums are for the Apostles to primarily organize the Church not according to denominations but according to locality. The deeper truths (http://biblocality.com/forums/misc.php?do=cfrules#five) taught here are not accepted by greater Christendom which is unsaved according to the Bible's description of religious Rome.

Realize you got 1.2 billion Roman Catholics that reject these deeper truths. And that is just for starters. Remember, the Church is a little flock. There is one of us here, one of us there. We are sparsely laid out as a beacon of light unto the world. The body of Christ is not what you normally construe as being the masses such as 1 in 3 people in the world calling themselves Christians. How silly to think all you have to do is say you are a Christian to be saved.

The Bible doesn't decry war against all, why bear false witness? Where did Jesus war?

Scholars will tell you 99.5% of the major Bible translations are the same. I agree when I compare versions as well. Therefore, your assumptions are false.

Since you could find no fault with the Bible or what I have told you, then why shut your mind down? Realize if you come to God with an honest heart, He will reveal Himself to you. Let go of your assumptions which you cling to so desperately. It is because you don't give up control of yourself that you are so overassuming.

I understand what you are going through because it is very scary to give up control of yourself after clinging to it for so long, but it is the answer. You don't know any better. You are a creature of habit. As the Bible says those who lose their soul will gain it for eternity.

As long as you continue to reject Christ, your life is a waste, bound for Hell. Very sad. God gives you the choice, so it is your responsibility to come to the cross. If you don't that is not responsible, but irresponsible, for you would not be receiving the solution to your sin nature.

Since you don't know what a Christian is you don't know who Christians are and could not speak for them.

The reason I am doing this is because I would not wish upon my worse enemy where you are going. To lose one soul to where you are going is a great tragedy.

The reason you are here is because you doubt your cold life; you realize there is something more to life than your present existence. That's why you are here, and that is why I am telling you true satisfaction is in not only receiving the substitution, but also the co-death with Christ on the cross. This is authentic life.