Practical Logic Regarding the Trinity

[Nottheworld]

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD" (Deut. 6.4).

"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." (Matt. 3.16-17)

"And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: And there came a voice from heaven, [saying], Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." (Mark 1.9-11)

"Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased." (Luke 3.21-22)

If Christians said both that (1a) there exists precisely one God, and that (1b) it is not the case that there exists precisely one God, they would contradict themselves. So also if they said both that (2a) there are three divine persons, and that (2b) it is not the case that there are three divine persons, they also would contradict themselves. But Christians do not affirm both 1a and 1b. Neither do they affirm both 2a and 2b. Rather, they affirm 1a and 2a. And this would be contradictory only if either 1a entails 2b or 2a entails 1b.

To the point differently, when Christians say that God is both one and three, they do not say that He is one in the same way in which He is three. So, for instance, they do not say both that (1a) there exists precisely one God, and that (1c) there exists three gods. Nor do they say both that (2a) there exist three divine persons, and that (2c) there exists only one divine person.

Since 1c entails 1b, affirming both it and 1a would be contradictory. And since 2c entails 2b, affirming both it and 2a also would be contradictory. But, as a matter of fact, Christians deny both 1c and 2c. In affirming 1a and 2a, then, Christians affirm that in one way God is one and in another way He is three. And in so doing they do not contradict themselves.

So, then, those who think the doctrine of the Trinity is contradictory misunderstand either the nature of a contradiction or the doctrine itself. Perhaps they confuse contradiction with mere paradox, taking our inability to understand how the doctrine is true to entail that it is false. But our inability to understand how God is both one and three tells us far more about ourselves than it does about God. The Bible presents God as both one and three; that suffices for us to know that He is so, regardless of whether we understand the how of it. There is a word for this...it is called humility.

[Churchwork]

We are told that the word "God" (Elohim) is a uni-plural noun which always is followed by a singular verb. It is rather unusual for a plural noun to be conjoined to a singular verb. But this is used to express the trinity of God. Because in the Godhead there is more than one person, no singular noun can be used. Elohim in that sense is a collective noun; it speaks of three in one, not of three Gods; hence it takes a singular verb. Though the Bible never says plainly that God is triune, there are nonetheless plenty of proofs and hints in it to support this truth. The doctrine of the Trinity is a major teaching of the holy Scriptures which we need not question. Furthermore; in Genesis 1.26 ("And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness") the word "us" reveals the plurality of the Godhead while the word "make" shows the unity of God’s will. In the first chapter of Genesis the phrase "God said" is used 31 times. What God says is His "Word," and as we read John chapter 1 we learn that the world was made by the "Word" of God. So that even in Genesis 1 the creative work of the Lord Jesus (who is the Word) is already being mentioned. We witness in Genesis 1 how the triune God worked together in creation. "God," "God said," and "the Spirit of God"—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—were all present.

Now before God created man, there was a pause. There was a council among the Godhead, and the decision was: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion . . ." (v.26). In pondering upon this divine council we can understand how carefully God worked. Due to the failure of Satan and the preadamic race, the earth became waste and void. Then God restored the earth and its heaven to be habitable. All the living creatures were now made and ready. But then a pause. And then a conversation among the Godhead: "Now let us make man!" Such is the spirit of the word of God here.

Yet what is the purpose in creating men? "Let them have dominion," we are told by the Godhead.

[PeteWaldo]

Muslims believe that God has a Spirit, because the Quran teaches it.

Sura 38:72 "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him OF MY SPIRIT, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."

However you will hardly ever get a Muslim to admit that their "Allah" has a spirit because they quickly realize, that by the same measure they apply to Christians, they are nothing more than polytheistic hypocrites. Assigning God and His Spirit as 2 Gods when accusing Christians, but recognizing God and His Spirit as being one, in Islam.

[Nottheworld]

What immediately came to mind was, there is a difference between merely saying the Spirit is the life of the Father, and the Spirit as also another Person.

[PeteWaldo]

What immediately came to mind was, there is a difference between merely saying the Spirit is the life of the Father, and the Spirit as also another Person.

Speaking strictly in regard to ministry to Muslims, it has been my experience in working with them that a back door approach is best. As in my prior post, to first disarm them with a profound truth, that they can't refute, but rather is confirmed by the Quran (though you should see the way they try to dance around it!). Then perhaps it's is best to let Jesus lead them gradually to the truth by using KJV Gospel quotes, rather than trying to beat them over the head - particularly with a doctrinal term "trinity" and more particularly God as "three persons", since the only unpardonable sin in Islam, is what they generally recite as, "assigning partners to Allah".

Their understanding of God comes through the child-like eyes of a single 7th century, desert dwelling, illiterate, reprobate. While they claim that God can't be fathomed or understood by men, at the same time they try to understand Him as simply as their next door neighbor.

Best thing is to get them reading the Gospel. I direct them to the Gospel of John as a place to start.
The overwhelming majority of Muslim testimonies result from them simply picking up a bible and reading. They have a lot to overcome. Former Muslim Ergun Caner (dean at Liberty) suggests it takes an average Muslim 7 years to overcome Islam. They loose family, inheritance, friends, job, community and in some countries their lives, for "apostasy", even in Canada (I would post a link to a video to support that, one that keeps being banned from YouTube that I uploaded to Tangle, but I don't want to perceived as self-promoting)

[Nottheworld]

I don't think that would be self-promoting.

Curious, do you think you run the risk of a Muslim coming to you and saying what they say is not a contradiction in Sura 38.72 because God of the Bible and Allah both have a Spirit, so the accusation of two gods is simply not accepting that God is Father, Son, Spirit? For 3 to exist from their perspective demands 3 gods.

If I were a Muslim I wouldn't accuse of two or three gods. I would just say, I don't agree with the Trinity. How do you convince someone of the Trinity? Reading the Bible may convince them the Bible teaches the Trinity, but they still might not agree with it anyway, still preferring the Qur'an.

[PeteWaldo]

I don't think that would be self-promoting.

This site isn't a current activity of mine anyway. I set it up a long time ago, and have just used it a couple times over many months to upload a video or 2 that get banned repeatedly from YouTube
http://www.tangle.com/view_video?viewkey=88d267dba53d454cb1ed


Curious, do you think you run the risk of a Muslim coming to you and saying what they say is not a contradiction in Sura 38.72 because God of the Bible and Allah both have a Spirit, so the accusation of two gods is simply not accepting that God is Father, Son, Spirit? For 3 to exist from their perspective demands 3 gods.

Indeed it does and indeed they do accuse 3 gods and Christians of polytheism.
Best to present one element at a time. Just from the first element of God's Spirit being introduced to them they can begin to see that Mohammed was a liar. As 2 of the 3 already become merged into one right out of the gate, leaving 2 not 3.

5:73 They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

Mohammed's phony "Allah" curses us

Surah 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!



If I were a Muslim I wouldn't accuse of two or three gods.

You would be pretty unique.


I would just say, I don't agree with the Trinity. How do you convince someone of the Trinity?

I believe the convincing can only be done by Jesus Christ. I do what I can to plant that first spark of cognitive dissonance to maybe help inspire their first steps toward seeking out the truth.
When I present this verse Muslims hate it because it helps them begin to actually understand what we believe, through it

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Since they believe the Quran is the "word" that came down from heaven, and they believe God has a Spirit this verse makes them begin to see.
They claim it was a later fabrication, but showing them that verse in the Koine Greek, and then showing them the concept isn't unique to that verse

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

With

Jhn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


Reading the Bible may convince them the Bible teaches the Trinity, but they still might not agree with it anyway, still preferring the Qur'an.

I guess we're not all elect. I point out that Islam is the EXACT AND PERFECT OPPOSITE. Indeed antichrist as it's most important fundamental.
We can only do what we can do.

[Nottheworld]

They will rationalize all those verses of the Trinity away as a later addition. The flesh can rationalize anything it wants. Maybe the lesson here is the best thing one can do is take a Muslim by the hand, find a quite place together, share those verse and read chapters together intently. Spend a couple hours a day for several weeks to lead him to Christ. But what Muslim would be willing to do that? But it takes that kind of commitment few of us are willing to pursue.

Just getting to know Jesus and the love of God, grace can enter. Convincing a Muslim seems relatively easy compared to a Mormon. Even though I show the Mormon that God is alone "from everlasting" they somehow manage to block those words in quotes out of their mind and refuse to discuss them. It's amazing how difficult it is to convince non-OSASers that they can't save themselves or keep their salvation; most religions teach non-OSAS and most of Christendom does too.

The problem I am guessing with Muslims is they are so closed off in their own community it is hard to reach them. Christians believe they will be physically harmed if we approach the sacred ground of Muslims. Isn't there an exodus of Christians from Iraq the last several years? All the churches were sent letters to leave the country or they will be killed.