Evidence for God

[wolf.x]

Im sorry but he doesn't. Theres so much evidence that backs earth and all the other planets hundreds of millions of years. I have yet to see any evidence of god. Good bye.

[Churchwork]

There is no evidence for a god, I do agree. But God is proven. How? By the fact that nothing in nature happens all by itself. If nothing in nature can happen all by itself, then nature can't cause itself and must be caused by the only remaining possibility that which is uncaused. God is the uncaused creator and intelligent designer. Take for example a cell that is so complex scientists are still amazed by all its different working components like a very complex piece of machinery that needs to be put together.

The Bible simply says look at the mountains and the stars and ask yourself, did you do that? No of course not. God did it!

Since the earth and all the other planets have developed over 13.7 billion years, this agrees completely with Gen. 1.1 that God created perfectly. It doesn't say how long God took to create only that it did take.

[DD2014]

Proving a Universal Negative

It is taken for granted by Christians, as well as many atheists, that a universal negative cannot be proven. In this case, that universal negative is the statement that the Christian God does not exist. One would have to have omniscience, they say, in order to prove that anything does not exist. I disagree with this position, however, because omniscience is not needed in order to prove that a thing whose nature is a self-contradiction cannot, and therefore does not exist.

I do not need a complete knowledge of the universe to prove to you that cubic spheres do not exist. Such objects have mutually-exclusive attributes which would render their existence impossible. For example, a cube, by definition, has 8 corners, while a sphere has none. These properties are completely incompatible: they cannot be held simultaneously by the same object. It is my intent to show that the supposed properties of the Christian God Yahweh, like those of a cubic sphere, are incompatible, and by so doing, to show Yahweh's existence to be an impossibility.

Defining "God"

Before we can discuss the existence of a thing, we must define it. Christians have endowed their God with all of the following attributes: He is eternal, all-powerful, and created everything. He created all the laws of nature and can change anything by an act of will. He is all-good, all-loving, and perfectly just. He is a personal God who experiences all of the emotions a human does. He is all-knowing. He sees everything past and future.
God's creation was originally perfect, but humans, by disobeying him, brought imperfection into the world. Humans are evil and sinful, and must suffer in this world because of their sinfulness. God gives humans the opportunity to accept forgiveness for their sin, and all who do will be rewarded with eternal bliss in heaven, but while they are on earth, they must suffer for his sake. All humans who choose not to accept this forgiveness must go to hell and be tormented for eternity.

One Bible verse which Christians are fond of quoting says that atheists are fools. I intend to show that the above concepts of God are completely incompatible and so reveal the impossibility of all of them being true. Who is the fool? The fool is the one who believes impossible things and calls them divine mysteries.

Perfection Seeks Even More Perfection

What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete--it needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.

Perfection Begets Imperfection

But, for the sake of argument, let's continue. Let us suppose that this perfect God did create the universe. Humans were the crown of his creation, since they were created in God's image and have the ability to make decisions. However, these humans spoiled the original perfection by choosing to disobey God.

What!? If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it. Someone once said that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, and yet this "perfect" God created a "perfect" universe which was rendered imperfect by the "perfect" humans. The ultimate source of imperfection is God. What is perfect cannot become imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect. What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans. A perfect God who creates imperfect humans is impossible.

The Freewill Argument

The Christians' objection to this argument involves freewill. They say that a being must have freewill to be happy. The omnibenevolent God did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness. But the humans used this freewill to choose evil, and introduced imperfection into God's originally perfect universe. God had no control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the humans, not God.

Here is why the argument is weak. First, if God is omnipotent, then the assumption that freewill is necessary for happiness is false. If God could make it a rule that only beings with freewill may experience happiness, then he could just as easily have made it a rule that only robots may experience happiness. The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible.

Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between several good options.
Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?

The point remains: the presence of imperfections in the universe disproves the supposed perfection of its creator.

All-good God Knowingly Creates Future Suffering

God is omniscient. When he created the universe, he saw the sufferings which humans would endure as a result of the sin of those original humans. He heard the screams of the damned. Surely he would have known that it would have been better for those humans to never have been born, and surely this all-compassionate deity would have foregone the creation of a universe destined to imperfection in which many of the humans were doomed to eternal suffering. A perfectly compassionate being who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer is impossible.

Infinite Punishment for Finite Sins

God is perfectly just, and yet he sentences the imperfect humans he created to infinite suffering in hell for finite sins. Clearly, a limited offense does not warrant unlimited punishment. God's sentencing of the imperfect humans to an eternity in hell for a mere mortal lifetime of sin is infinitely more unjust than this punishment. The absurd injustice of this infinite punishment is even greater when we consider that the ultimate source of human imperfection is the God who created them. A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible.


Belief More Important Than Action

Consider all of the people who live in the remote regions of the world who have never even heard the "gospel" of Jesus Christ. Consider the people who have naturally adhered to the religion of their parents and nation as they had been taught to do since birth. If we are to believe the Christians, all of these people will perish in the eternal fire for not believing in Jesus. It does not matter how just, kind, and generous they have been with their fellow humans during their lifetime: if they do not accept the gospel of Jesus, they are condemned. No just God would ever judge a man by his beliefs rather than his actions.

Perfection's Imperfect Revelation

The Bible is supposedly God's perfect Word. It contains instructions to humankind for avoiding the eternal fires of hell. How wonderful and kind of this God to provide us with this means of overcoming the problems for which he is ultimately responsible! The all-powerful God could have, by a mere act of will, eliminated all of the problems we humans must endure, but instead, in his infinite wisdom, he has opted to offer this indecipherable amalgam of books which is the Bible as a means for avoiding the hell which he has prepared for us. The perfect God has decided to reveal his wishes in this imperfect work, written in the imperfect language of imperfect man, translated, copied, interpreted, voted on, and related by imperfect man.

No two men will ever agree what this perfect word of God is supposed to mean, since much of it is either self- contradictory, or obscured by enigmatic symbols. And yet the perfect God expects us imperfect humans to understand this paradoxical riddle using the imperfect minds with which he has equipped us. Surely the all-wise and all-powerful God would have known that it would have been better to reveal his perfect will directly to each of us, rather than to allow it to be debased and perverted by the imperfect language and botched interpretations of man.


Contradictory Justice

One need look to no source other than the Bible to discover its imperfections, for it contradicts itself and thus exposes its own imperfection. It contradicts itself on matters of justice, for the same just God who assures his people that sons shall not be punished for the sins of their fathers turns around and destroys an entire household for the sin of one man (he had stolen some of Yahweh's war loot). It was this same Yahweh who afflicted thousands of his innocent people with plague and death to punish their evil king David for taking a census (?!). It was this same Yahweh who allowed the humans to slaughter his son because the perfect Yahweh had botched his own creation. Consider how many have been stoned, burned, slaughtered, raped, and enslaved because of Yahweh's skewed sense of justice. The blood of innocent babies is on the perfect, just, compassionate hands of Yahweh.

Contradictory History

The Bible contradicts itself on matters of history. A person who reads and compares the contents of the Bible will be confused about exactly who Esau's wives were, whether Timnah was a concubine or a son, and whether Jesus' earthly lineage is through Solomon or his brother Nathan. These are but a few of hundreds of documented historical contradictions. If the Bible cannot confirm itself in mundane earthly matters, how are we to trust it on moral and spiritual matters?

The Omniscient is Surprised

A God who knows everything cannot have emotions. The Bible says that God experiences all of the emotions of humans, including anger, sadness, and happiness. We humans experience emotions as a result of new knowledge. A man who had formerly been ignorant of his wife's infidelity will experience the emotions of anger and sadness only after he has learned what had previously been hidden. In contrast, the omniscient God is ignorant of nothing. Nothing is hidden from him, nothing new may be revealed to him, so there is no gained knowledge to which he may emotively react.

We humans experience anger and frustration when something is wrong which we cannot fix. The perfect, omnipotent God, however, can fix anything. Humans experience longing for things we lack. The perfect God lacks nothing. An omniscient, omnipotent, and perfect God who experiences emotion is impossible.

The Conclusion of the matter

I have offered arguments for the impossibility, and thus the non- existence, of the Christian God Yahweh. No reasonable and freethinking individual can accept the existence of a being whose nature is so contradictory as that of Yahweh, the "perfect" creator of our imperfect universe. The existence of Yahweh is as impossible as the existence of cubic spheres or invisible pink unicorns.

Should any Christian who reads this persist in defending these impossibilities through means of "divine transcendence" and "faith," and should any Christian continue to call me an atheist fool, I will be forced to invoke the wrath of the Invisible Pink Unicorn:

"You are a fool for denying the existence of the invisible pink unicorn. You have rejected true faith and have relied on your feeble powers of human reason and thus arrogantly denied the existence of Her Divine Transcendence, and so are you condemned."

If such arguments are good enough for Yahweh, they are good enough for Her Invisible Pinkness.

As for me, I shall choose reality.

[Churchwork]

Proving a Universal Negative
It is taken for granted by Christians, as well as many atheists, that a universal negative cannot be proven.
Most Christians I know don't make this claim.


In this case, that universal negative is the statement that the Christian God does not exist. One would have to have omniscience, they say, in order to prove that anything does not exist. I disagree with this position, however, because omniscience is not needed in order to prove that a thing whose nature is a self-contradiction cannot, and therefore does not exist.
Then an atheist ought not to take the position they need to know everything to know if God exists, but simply accept the overwhelming evidence for God's existence and realizing their own contradictions for believing in atheism.



Perfection Seeks Even More Perfection
There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.

To do nothing, desire nothing, need nothing is a standard you place upon God that is less than for us, for we do things, desire and need. A false god perhaps would claim to just exist and need nothing, but a perfect God can't help but create out of His glory as He is a personal Being who wants fellowship which He has with Himself in the 3 Persons, but even more with man created in His image. It is His prerogative when to create, what to create and how. You can place no demands on God as to creating for He is infinitely greater and wiser than you.



Perfection Begets Imperfection
What is perfect cannot become imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect. What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans. A perfect God who creates imperfect humans is impossible.

You can raise your own children perfectly and they can still refuse that perfect treatment. If they didn't have the choice to rebel, they would not be made in God's image. God doesn't create robots, for He can do better than that. Your mistaken assumption is the perfectly created human cannot become imperfect. That he did shows if anything he is not God, so he needs God's redemptive design God so mercifully provides.



The Freewill Argument
The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible.

To not have free-will is not to be made in God's image and God will not do lesser than creating man in His image. If you can bake a 5 layer cake for a wedding, but only build a 2 layer cake, the bride and groom won't be very happy with you, nor will you be satisfied in falling short of what you could have accomplished. Furthermore, you can't have authentic relationship with robots. God is not a dullard like atheists. There is the additional problem that since we do exist and we do have free-will, the atheist has a doublestandard because he is blaming naturalism, nonetheless, for the human condition.



Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between several good options.
Then it is not true free-will with the full gambit of options.


Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?
Because this shows they are not God. This takes humility to accept though.


The point remains: the presence of imperfections in the universe disproves the supposed perfection of its creator.
The point remains: imperfections can occur in a perfectly created being because of their own free-will.



All-good God Knowingly Creates Future Suffering
Surely he would have known that it would have been better for those humans to never have been born, and surely this all-compassionate deity would have foregone the creation of a universe destined to imperfection in which many of the humans were doomed to eternal suffering. A perfectly compassionate being who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer is impossible.

God will never prevent the creation of a soul He wants fellowship with who shall be saved because of another soul who eternally damns himself by his own volition.



Infinite Punishment for Finite Sins
God is perfectly just, and yet he sentences the imperfect humans he created to infinite suffering in hell for finite sins. Clearly, a limited offense does not warrant unlimited punishment. God's sentencing of the imperfect humans to an eternity in hell for a mere mortal lifetime of sin is infinitely more unjust than this punishment. The absurd injustice of this infinite punishment is even greater when we consider that the ultimate source of human imperfection is the God who created them. A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible.

The sin to eternally reject God is not a finite sin. You are beginning to see all your assumptions are presumptuous.



Belief More Important Than Action
Consider all of the people who live in the remote regions of the world who have never even heard the "gospel" of Jesus Christ. Consider the people who have naturally adhered to the religion of their parents and nation as they had been taught to do since birth. If we are to believe the Christians, all of these people will perish in the eternal fire for not believing in Jesus. It does not matter how just, kind, and generous they have been with their fellow humans during their lifetime: if they do not accept the gospel of Jesus, they are condemned. No just God would ever judge a man by his beliefs rather than his actions.

A person doesn't actually have to read the Bible to be saved. For example, a person on a remote island who rejects the idols of worship of his people, but believes in the God who created those stars and mountains would surely accept Jesus Christ. God provides this common grace, but also His special grace through the Scriptures.

My prayer is you begin to see how your misreading of the Bible is your downfall. Mistaken assumptions are keeping you separated from God.



Perfection's Imperfect Revelation
The Bible is supposedly God's perfect Word. It contains instructions to humankind for avoiding the eternal fires of hell. How wonderful and kind of this God to provide us with this means of overcoming the problems for which he is ultimately responsible! The all-powerful God could have, by a mere act of will, eliminated all of the problems we humans must endure, but instead, in his infinite wisdom, he has opted to offer this indecipherable amalgam of books which is the Bible as a means for avoiding the hell which he has prepared for us. The perfect God has decided to reveal his wishes in this imperfect work, written in the imperfect language of imperfect man, translated, copied, interpreted, voted on, and related by imperfect man.

If these books are indecipherable, how come I understand them so easily? The Holy Spirit has amalgamated all 66 books. Praise the Lord! God has graced you with a spirit of God-consciousness to know God exists, so you ought to believe in Him. But because He is so gracious, He provides His clear Word even more, so you have no excuse in your assumptions.

To disallow someone the choice to want to be eternally separated from God is coercion and that would be evil. God is not responsible for your choice to go to Hell. You are. He is just giving you what you want and provides you that abode.


No two men will ever agree what this perfect word of God is supposed to mean, since much of it is either self- contradictory, or obscured by enigmatic symbols. And yet the perfect God expects us imperfect humans to understand this paradoxical riddle using the imperfect minds with which he has equipped us. Surely the all-wise and all-powerful God would have known that it would have been better to reveal his perfect will directly to each of us, rather than to allow it to be debased and perverted by the imperfect language and botched interpretations of man.
I don't know any Christians who disagree with the meaning of the essential doctrine of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. I find no self-contradictory statements or obscurity or symbols that are not explained at least somewhere. So there is no paradox. Yes, there are some complexities, but would you expect anything less from an eternally great God? Since you can find no perversion and imperfection, what's the problem? God has revealed Himself directly to you, because you know the universe can't create itself; hence, it was created by that which is uncreated, God Almighty.



Contradictory Justice
It contradicts itself on matters of justice, for the same just God who assures his people that sons shall not be punished for the sins of their fathers turns around and destroys an entire household for the sin of one man (he had stolen some of Yahweh's war loot). It was this same Yahweh who afflicted thousands of his innocent people with plague and death to punish their evil king David for taking a census (?!). It was this same Yahweh who allowed the humans to slaughter his son because the perfect Yahweh had botched his own creation. Consider how many have been stoned, burned, slaughtered, raped, and enslaved because of Yahweh's skewed sense of justice. The blood of innocent babies is on the perfect, just, compassionate hands of Yahweh.

Satan deals in vagaries, but I would be happy to discuss where you think you are reading into Scripture these beliefs of yours to show if they are assumptions.



Contradictory History
The Bible contradicts itself on matters of history. A person who reads and compares the contents of the Bible will be confused about exactly who Esau's wives were, whether Timnah was a concubine or a son, and whether Jesus' earthly lineage is through Solomon or his brother Nathan. These are but a few of hundreds of documented historical contradictions. If the Bible cannot confirm itself in mundane earthly matters, how are we to trust it on moral and spiritual matters?

You realize Christian scholars have done a through investigation of all alleged contradictions to show there are none. Have you studied up on this one to know their answer given? Could there be something you overlooked?



The Omniscient is Surprised
A God who knows everything cannot have emotions. The Bible says that God experiences all of the emotions of humans, including anger, sadness, and happiness. We humans experience emotions as a result of new knowledge. A man who had formerly been ignorant of his wife's infidelity will experience the emotions of anger and sadness only after he has learned what had previously been hidden. In contrast, the omniscient God is ignorant of nothing. Nothing is hidden from him, nothing new may be revealed to him, so there is no gained knowledge to which he may emotively react.

You can have emotions in response to events that are yet to take place that you know will happen. What do you think God is surprised about?


We humans experience anger and frustration when something is wrong which we cannot fix. The perfect, omnipotent God, however, can fix anything. Humans experience longing for things we lack. The perfect God lacks nothing. An omniscient, omnipotent, and perfect God who experiences emotion is impossible.
Just like God can't make a circle square, He cannot do many alleged things. That God lacks nothing doesn't remove Him from His desire to solve problems. You could be a perfectly satisfied at some job, but that doesn't mean you don't desire to solve other matters. Since we are made in God's image with emotion, why would God be any lesser than us by being without emotion? Surely, God's standards are higher than ours.


I will be forced to invoke the wrath of the Invisible Pink Unicorn
But that would be a contradiction on your part because you said it is "impossible...the existence of...invisible pink unicorns." Remember what you said before about contradictions? Why do not you abide in your own claim against contradictions?

You pink invisible unicorn being both pink and invisible is a contradiction. Seems sorta dumb to me to invoke a contradiction for your arguments.

Perhaps you should consider choosing reality and not contradictions.

[DD2014]

Then an atheist ought not to take the position they need to know everything to know if God exists, but simply accept the overwhelming evidence for God's existence and realizing their own contradictions for believing in atheism.

I am merely stating that in a logical universe something that is self-contradictory cannot exist.

And what contradictions do I belive in, or were you just assuming?


...but a perfect God can't help but create out of His glory as He is a personal Being who wants fellowship which He has with Himself in the 3 Persons, but even more with man created in His image. It is His prerogative when to create, what to create and how.

Exactly, he wants. He had an infinite eternity with Himself in the 3 Persons, and yet all of the sudden he wants more. To me it sounds like he is lacking something, and if you want or need something that you do not have, you don't sound very perfect. It sounds more like boredom to me. If you are bored, you are lacking something, if you are lacking something you are not perfect.


You can raise your own children perfectly and they can still refuse that perfect treatment. If they didn't have the choice to rebel, they would not be made in God's image. God doesn't create robots, for He can do better than that. Your mistaken assumption is the perfectly created human cannot become imperfect. That he did shows if anything he is not God, so he needs God's redemptive design God so mercifully provides.

I don't belive that a person could raise "perfect" children. You may belive that you did, but it is not the case, because you are not perfect and you children will pick up on your imperfections which makes your parenting imperfect (If you have raised perfect kids let me know, that info is priceless).

I did not assume that perfectly created humans cannot become imperfect. It is illogical for a perfect God to create humans that are imperfect (ie: genocide, rape, sickness).


Then it is not true free-will with the full gambit of options.

True. But he could have not created evil options for us to choose. Its like putting a plate of cookies in front of a 3 year old and telling her "don't eat the cookies or I'll spank you" and then leave the room for an hour. What will happen? 3 year old eats cookies, you spank and it was all for nothing. You could have eliminated the stupidity of hitting your kid by not putting cookies in front of her (even imperfect parents know this, but not God?).


To not have free-will is not to be made in God's image and God will not do lesser than creating man in His image. If you can bake a 5 layer cake for a wedding, but only build a 2 layer cake, the bride and groom won't be very happy with you, nor will you be satisfied in falling short of what you could have accomplished.

I guess your right. If God did not give us the free-will then we wouldn't have had the pleasure of watching Hitler kill 11 million people or the atom bomb killing tens of thousands of civilians ect.

But if God had made a 10 layer cake we wouldn't be having this discussion.

No offence or anything. But if God can accomplish anything, he could have done a much better job with us.


Because this shows they are not God. This takes humility to accept though.

That makes sense.

Kind of off topic but, if we are made in Gods image what is God? Black, white, asian ect.


The point remains: imperfections can occur in a perfectly created being because of their own free-will.

Which would make them imperfect. After Adem and Eve we are supposedly born imperfect because of the "original sin" we did not make that choise but we are still imperfect by no choise of our own. If our soul's are created by God and they are imperfect then God has created something imperfect.


God will never prevent the creation of a soul He wants fellowship with who shall be saved because of another soul who eternally damns himself by his own volition.

Again he could have eliminated evil from the universe and skiped the whole suffering on earth dilemma. Or he also could have just created us in heaven, his son would never have to die and no one would go to hell.


...a person on a remote island who rejects the idols of worship of his people, but believes in the God who created those stars and mountains would surely accept Jesus Christ. God provides this common grace, but also His special grace through the Scriptures.

So you are assuming that when he rejected his native God/Gods he will just magically belive in your God? Someone who does not know of God obviously does not share your "common grace", if they did missionarys would not be needed.


If these books are indecipherable, how come I understand them so easily? The Holy Spirit has amalgamated all 66 books. Praise the Lord! God has graced you with a spirit of God-consciousness to know God exists, so you ought to believe in Him. But because He is so gracious, He provides His clear Word even more, so you have no excuse in your assumptions.


Well if you understand the bible and Gods word is so clear, perhaps you could explain some of it for me. (will PM you, getting tired)

Actually the 66 books of the bible were amalgamated first by Jewish rabbis and scholars, and then later by early Christians. I donno about the whole God-consciousness thing as I cannot speak for everyone, but I can tell you for sure I do not have it or we would not be having this discussion.


I don't know any Christians who disagree with the meaning of the essential doctrine of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. I find no self-contradictory statements or obscurity or symbols that are not explained at least somewhere. So there is no paradox. Yes, there are some complexities, but would you expect anything less from an eternally great God? Since you can find no perversion and imperfection, what's the problem?

Satan deals in vagaries, but I would be happy to discuss where you think you are reading into Scripture these beliefs of yours to show if they are assumptions.


(Again, I will PM you)

And I'll cover the rest tomorrow. G'nite

[Churchwork]

I am merely stating that in a logical universe something that is self-contradictory cannot exist. And what contradictions do I belive in, or were you just assuming?
Since you can find no contradictions about God then you shouldn't have an issue. Furthermore, you can't resolve the contradiction of believing in atheism while the universe can't cause itself nor have always been existing. Why don't you abide in your proclamation not to contradict? That is a doublestandard, not treating others as you would like to be treated.


He had an infinite eternity with Himself in the 3 Persons, and yet all of the sudden he wants more. To me it sounds like he is lacking something, and if you want or need something that you do not have, you don't sound very perfect. It sounds more like boredom to me. If you are bored, you are lacking something, if you are lacking something you are not perfect.
You're questioning God's prerogative, which you can do, but you certainly can't doubt, for God is working outside of time. When you ask the question why when, it is a false question, because there is no "when" outside of time. The Pharaoh tried to make an excuse for why Moses was trying to get the Hebrews to go on a 3 day journey to worship their God. The Pharaoh said the reason was because "they are slackers" (Gen. 5.8) and accused Moses of "deceptive words" (v.9), but was Moses being deceptive? Of course not. Slavery is wrong and the Jews were in slavery for 430 years no less. The Pharaoh even admitted, "I do not know the LORD, and what's more, I will not let Israel go" (v.2). Even the Hebrews accused Moses, "may the LORD take note of you and judge" (v.21) you Moses, for making their lives even more difficult because now they had to find straw to build bricks. But guess what? Before all was said and done, the Pharaoh did know who the LORD was just as you will, and the Hebrews did worship their God greater than ever before. Don't you know that God will keep His promise to the Jews (Gen. 2.24), they will be the center of all nations one day? From here the Son of Man will reign on earth for a 1000 years. Man can't see very far ahead at all. He is always whining like a 3 year old from his limited view, just like you do. You're blaming God for having the prerogative to create, but you falsely accuse Him for His timing when there isn't even any time outside of time. How silly is that?


I don't belive that a person could raise "perfect" children. You may belive that you did, but it is not the case, because you are not perfect and you children will pick up on your imperfections which makes your parenting imperfect (If you have raised perfect kids let me know, that info is priceless). I did not assume that perfectly created humans cannot become imperfect. It is illogical for a perfect God to create humans that are imperfect (ie: genocide, rape, sickness).
But I never said God created human beings imperfectly, so your argument fails you. However well one raises their kids, try to understand the point that the child should live at a minimum in accordance with that, but there would not be free-will if they didn't have the choice not to.


But he could have not created evil options for us to choose. Its like putting a plate of cookies in front of a 3 year old and telling her "don't eat the cookies or I'll spank you" and then leave the room for an hour. What will happen? 3 year old eats cookies, you spank and it was all for nothing. You could have eliminated the stupidity of hitting your kid by not putting cookies in front of her (even imperfect parents know this, but not God?).
The problem with your argument is you are not a 3 year old child but a fully grown person who has reached the age of accountability made in God's image. You don't get to play innocence, for that is false humility. The evil option is not created but naturally flows from first disobedience. Adam and Even did not first kill each other, but simply ate of a fruit of knowledge of good and evil. Just that simple act of disobedience and independency against God opened up a whole can of worms as sin begets sin.Realizing God is infinitely greater than you it is easy to see how this can transpire as you read Scripture with an open heart. That evil existed because it was first brought in by that fallen angel Lucifer who tempted Eve. It was only the next generation that killed, that being Cain killing his brother Abel. You may want to pat a murderer on the back and say it is not his fault, he is innocent, but that is just evil of you.


I guess your right. If God did not give us the free-will then we wouldn't have had the pleasure of watching Hitler kill 11 million people or the atom bomb killing tens of thousands of civilians ect. But if God had made a 10 layer cake we wouldn't be having this discussion. No offence or anything. But if God can accomplish anything, he could have done a much better job with us.
Realize how evil your heart is that it gives you "pleasure watching Hitler kill 11 million people or the atom bomb killing tens of thousands of civilians ect." If no 10 layer cake then you fall short of God's glory and ultimate reality. There is no offense then because nobody can be offended, because nobody is really made in God's image who can have such emotion, but are just robots. You think robots is a better job (a zombie world), whereas people who accept reality think otherwise. Your blaming is destroying you. And you still contradict yourself even though you say you shouldn't, for you keep accusing God for this existence when it happens, nonetheless, anyway according to atheism. Why don't you blame atheism also? You are a walking contradiction. It shows, if nothing else, you are not being genuine, and you are a few bricks short of a load.


That makes sense. Kind of off topic but, if we are made in Gods image what is God? Black, white, asian ect.
No, it is on topic because you blame God for imperfect human beings, but God didn't create imperfect human beings. Rather their imperfection flows from the fact they are not God as only someone who is not God can rebel against God. God is Spirit. You may be white, but God is spirit. You have a spirit also which is conveyed to you through your intuition, communion and conscience. The life of the Father and the Son is the Spirit. Don't be confused by this.


Which would make them imperfect. After Adem and Eve we are supposedly born imperfect because of the "original sin" we did not make that choise but we are still imperfect by no choise of our own. If our soul's are created by God and they are imperfect then God has created something imperfect.
To have a choice doesn't make you imperfect, nor does being born into sin from the sin of the perfect man Adam. You are still perfectly made in God's image with a spirit, soul and body (Heb. 4.12, 1 Thess. 5.23), but since you are a child of Adam, you are born with a sin nature. This is unavoidable and inescapable, because procreation takes place through the flesh. All that is born of the flesh is flesh. Your problem is you keep accusing reality. It happens, therefore it is. The nature of the unsaved man is to blame reality even though it has happened, and by so doing, he passes off responsibility to the evil spirit to control his life instead of God being the guiding principle of his life by the Holy Spirit through regeneration of his inner man.


Again he could have eliminated evil from the universe and skiped the whole suffering on earth dilemma. Or he also could have just created us in heaven, his son would never have to die and no one would go to hell.
That's not reality, for then there is no choice to rebel or be independent. You'd be just a robot. Surely God can do better than that.


So you are assuming that when he rejected his native God/Gods he will just magically belive in your God? Someone who does not know of God obviously does not share your "common grace", if they did missionarys would not be needed.
Missionaries are needed because God is most gracious and merciful. It is in keeping with His nature. Someone who believed in God would surely accept Jesus as God, because there is the same nature of being uncreated and effectively dealing with sins according to reality. It is not magic but every person has a spirit of God-consciousness. We all know God exists but many people choose to shut their minds down, preferring their selfish nature. And it is not enough to just know God exists but to prostrate yourself before Him for forgiveness of sins. But this takes a willingness to be selfless and give up control of self you so desperately cling to, letting the evil spirit maintain control over you through strongholds in your mind.

Because this God I speak of trumps all others by comparison, you know He is the One True God. How many more times must He prove Himself to you that He is right, to know that He is right? It is approaching absurdity now don't you think after all this time and all these years?


Well if you understand the bible and Gods word is so clear, perhaps you could explain some of it for me. (will PM you, getting tired) Actually the 66 books of the bible were amalgamated first by Jewish rabbis and scholars, and then later by early Christians. I donno about the whole God-consciousness thing as I cannot speak for everyone, but I can tell you for sure I do not have it or we would not be having this discussion.
Don't pm me, just keep talking in the forums. The problems you are going through can help others also. It was the Holy Spirit who amalgamated the Scriptures and brought men to combine them into the Bible. It is quite true you have a spirit of God-consciousness for all you need do is look at the nations through history which all worship what they deem to be God. Such a common condition of humanity is overwhelmingly obvious. You know God exists. Stop fighting it.

[DD2014]

Slavery is wrong and the Jews were in slavery for 430 years no less.

Don't be a hypocrite. Here are just a few passages in the bible advocating slavery.


The following passage shows that slaves are clearly property to be bought and sold like livestock.

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

The bible also says you can beat both male and female slaves with a rod so hard that as long as they don't die right away you are cleared of any wrong doing.

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

You would think that Jesus and the New Testament would have a different view of slavery, but slavery is still approved of in the New Testament, as the following passages show.

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

In the following parable, Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn't know they were doing anything wrong.

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

[Churchwork]

The following passage shows that slaves are clearly property to be bought and sold like livestock.
You are being a hypocrite if you don't understand this as follows, because if you willingly don't, then you have a doublestandard. All I can do is show you how you are misreading.

In the day, there were two kinds of slavery. One was downright wrong, which is to be enslaved as a race of people for 430 years oppressively (Israel enacted a Jubilee every 50 years letting any slave depart if he wished), like enslaving blacks in United States, and the other was the norm of most nations, like today's lower class or middle class which still exists today, but with more physical punishment. To understand this, think in these terms. As you go back in history you find people to be more barbaric, therefore, a greater physical response is needed as well as enslavement. They go hand in hand. Where in antiquity slaves would be killed or maimed among the nations, God didn't do away with this second kind of slavery by Israel, but treated these individuals respectfully in that economic system with dignity and a higher standard than the norms of the day of the surrounding peoples.

Today, you may think it is not right that someone gets paid minimum wage and can't even pay their rent, but the fact remains this is a form of slavery that is still going on today. Does God say raise the minimum wage 500%? No, because the economic system would collapse. God is maintaining a certain sense of order by not creating outright anarchy in the face of so much sin.

God is a realistic God. He knows even this second kind is wrong, but to buck the trend so immediately will do more harm than good. In time, there will not even be a middle class or lower class of workers. However, while Israel did not completely change this second form of slavery, they did handle it with better care and greater consideration as you can see by the various verses you provided. God moves sometimes quickly, but others times slowly through the generations.

What then happens when Christ returns? The overcomer believers will return with Christ to reign over the nations for a 1000 years with an "iron rod" mentioned 3 times in Revelation. There will still yet be some unsaved and sinning going on and selfishness, but to a lesser degree. If God is still applying a rod of iron in the millennial kingdom, then how much more under the Old Covenant! Rewards are not done away with during the millennial kingdom, but they are done away with after the 1000 years in the New City and New Earth. Christians and Saints of Old who were carnal or fleshly will lose the reward of reigning during the 1000 years, though having been disciplined will be made ready for the New City and New Earth. A 1000 years or great length of period is a long time to lose what was rightfully yours.

I hope you can at least understand a little of my explanation. My explanation makes sense of all these verses so it clearly makes sense to me by the Holy Spirit indwelling my spirit. May it make sense to you one day too. Praise the Lord for this discernment.

Where you have a doublestandard is not realizing most nations practiced some form of slavery, even today, but you fail to appreciate the higher standard of the day that Israel held among the nations, yet you pick on Israel or Jesus, when it would make more sense to pick on those who are doing a worse job at treating slaves. In atheism, for example, the oppression is far greater than most forms of slavery as we see in communism by dictators and other socialist regimes. Your Stalin killed 40 million people and Mao 60 million. In the 20th century alone, 200 million people were killed under atheistic agendas. May you sincerely think about that.

I think it is quite unethical to apply a standard of then to now, for times have changed. All the while not examining how the Israel standard of the day was higher than surrounding peoples. We are under a New Covenant. To give an example, in antiquity it was quite the norm to have multiple spouses, but less so today. By the way Jesus was just giving an illustration from their understanding to point to the kingdom. The point being there is punishment for sin. Don't think there isn't. No sin goes unpunished. Your sin is eternally rejecting God so God eternally separates you from Him by sending you to Hell.

[DD2014]

I hope you can at least understand a little of my explanation. My explanation makes sense of all these verses so it clearly makes sense to me by the Holy Spirit indwelling my spirit. May it make sense to you one day too. Praise the Lord for this discernment.

I understand how you can justify this "less opressive" type of slavery with bronze age economics and traditions. The only problem I see with this is God. A truly just and loving God should not kill every firstborn of Egypt for enslaving Hebrews, then turn around and let the Hebrews take slaves of their own, that is a doublestandard.


...to buck the trend so immediately will do more harm than good.

But if God wanted to be truly just, loving and actually helpful to his chosen people, he would abolish slavery, and reward the Hebrews obedience with larger harvests. Then the "slaves" would be able to work as farm hands, leaving as they please while making more money/food/whatever in the process. Also the improved harvest would boost trade with local peoples. This makes more sense and is economically progressive.

[Churchwork]

I understand how you can justify this "less opressive" type of slavery with bronze age economics and traditions. The only problem I see with this is God. A truly just and loving God should not kill every firstborn of Egypt for enslaving Hebrews, then turn around and let the Hebrews take slaves of their own, that is a doublestandard.
You contradict yourself because you said you "understand" these are not the same kinds of slavery yet you take issue that there was slavery in Israel. Furthermore, there is the element of the fact that God first revealed Himself to the nation of Israel so there is a certain separation there which Israel has to maintain or preserve that cleanliness or privilege to bring in the Messiah so to maintain its identity. You must accept the fact that if God is going to reveal Himself to a nation, then what He has done is perfectly reasonable. Thinking of God working in small degrees over great lengths of time. A little here, a little there. See the gradients in His working from one generation to the next, slowly but surely. In a way, you can say you are moving ahead of God and being unrealistic, because you want Him to have no slavery at all during those times when that would be too jerky of a movement, nor does sin dissipate that quickly. There is even slavery now to a degree. So you could even blame God now, but it is not God's fault. It is man's fault, for it is man's sin. Eventually there will be no slavery, though men, such as as yourself, are presently enslaved to Satan, the god of this world maintaining your hostility towards God. Eventually, God will have no choice but to put in you Hell to be consciously aware of your wrong choice for forever. You will know you belong there because you want to be there.



But if God wanted to be truly just, loving and actually helpful to his chosen people, he would abolish slavery, and reward the Hebrews obedience with larger harvests. Then the "slaves" would be able to work as farm hands, leaving as they please while making more money/food/whatever in the process. Also the improved harvest would boost trade with local peoples. This makes more sense and is economically progressive.

God does abolish slavery, that is, oppressive slavery. Slavery of the kind we are talking about, rather, is effectively farm hands. You can give the name slavery to it, but it is really not so much different than farm hands today. Let's say God even outlawed the second kind of slavery then the nation of Israel would not maintain its identity commingling with Pagans and their idols in their own homes even. This loses what God is trying to do in an otherwise oppressive time. Therefore, God would not truly be just, loving and actually helping if He abolished the second kind of slavery. Think of it this way. The proper kind of medicine is needed for the proper kind of symptoms. The prescription you would administer doesn't properly deal with the problem of the day. Therefore, a certain degree of slavery was allowed for a time, just like today, a certain amount of low paying workers are allowed for a time until better times. If Israel did what you wanted them to do, they would actually lose land and crops because of the Pagan intrusion and confusion. Satan is the author of confusion. Your approach is not progressive but regressive, falling back into darker ages, because Israel would have been overwhelmed and taken advantage of. It's the same with when Israel entered the land of milk and honey in Canaan, surrounded by 10 Pagan nations which engorged themselves in child sacrifices thrown into the fiery mouth of their god Molech. These nations or tribes of people were so evil, God's objective was to stop their growth and finish them off unless they were willing to stop their ways. You are still making the mistake of not putting yourself in their shoes and appreciating what it was like for them back then. Ultimately, that is selfish and narrow minded of you. Think of your mind living in its closed box with a certain independency to it. And you view the universe as a closed box to. God is trying to get you to see "outside the box" you restrict yourself to. Perhaps God will show you a miracle one day to show you it's possible for God to create, incarnate and resurrect, for if you can believe in one miracle, perhaps you can believe in another. It is a miracle than Israel was dispersed for 2500 years and of all those nations present, only Israel remains and even became a nation 2500 years later in 1948. Just a few decades ago a person would consider it a miracle you could hold so much information in such a small space on a computer chip. But it isn't really so surprising when you look at our DNA. Is it really so hard for God to create and and enter His creation and resurrect? For man can create a computer, a computer game, enter in as a player character, die, and resurrect also. Your problem is this: how do you explain how mindless forces could give rise to minds, knowledge, and sound reasoning.



So we should go back to killing people for being able to think freely? A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB). Because that does not make sense in todays society. Many rules in the bible are similer to this one. So does that mean we follow all of them, or just some? If we must follow all of the biblcal rules then people would be walking around eye's and teeth missing, half of us dead and the rest scared shitless. And if you only follow some of the biblical rules you are using selective morality which is stupid (no explanation necessary)

To go back is regressive, not progressive. Today you can be a fortune teller and a medium, but you won't be put to death for it, though this sin leads to death, for it is a lie and a lie is not healthy for your spirit, soul and body. Israel had to preserve its identify as was said in brutal times. These mediums and psychics would corrupt the very fabric of Israel society and prolong the coming Messiah. It is illogical to apply today's standards to then, and I think that is disingenuous of you. If I may say, it is like you are sitting on a pedestal judging how God is dealing with difficult times in history from an improved conscience today of mankind to reject God when this exponential improvement in conscience actually points to the existence of an uncreated Creator, because we are approaching near sinlessness; thus, we wouldn't still be sinning to the extent we still do if there was an eternity of the past of cause and effects. Acknowledge the law under the Old Covenant that no man could keep the law points to the fact they are sinners (we all have the law written upon our hearts), and also acknowledge Matt. 5-7 how Jesus came to fill up that law under the New Covenant. Don't you ask yourself why there are these two covenants? For example, take the 10 commandments. There is one that you do not need to keep which is the ceremonial law which was just for Israel, that is, to keep the Sabbath. But the other 9 moral laws you should keep. God deals differently for different dispensations. The dispensation you are in is not under the law but under grace and God reveals Himself through the Church. The Church is God's voice today. For what you should keep from the OT just look to the NT for it explains it all. It is not selective but guided by the Holy Spirit. The Bible says not one tittle of the law shall pass till all these things are finished. Think of it like the DOS programming that operates under Windows. It is still there, and it doesn't go away until these things are finished, that is to say, the Windows based system is done away with, but you working with the upgraded version. And so this continues even when Christ returns to the end of the millennial kingdom. The millennial kingdom begins after the Great Tribulation. The New City and New Earth after the millennial kingdom does away the DOS programming altogether.

[DD2014]

You contradict yourself because you said you "understand" these are not the same kinds of slavery yet you take issue that there was slavery in Israel.
slave 
–noun 1.a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant.2.a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person: a slave to a drug. 3.a drudge: a housekeeping slave. 4.a slave ant.5.Photography. a subsidiary flash lamp actuated through its photoelectric cell when the principal flash lamp is discharged.6.Machinery. a mechanism under control of and repeating the actions of a similar mechanism. Compare master (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=master&db=luna) (def. 19).
–verb (used without object) 7.to work like a slave; drudge.8.to engage in the slave trade; procure, transport, or sell slaves.
–verb (used with object) 9.to connect (a machine) to a master as its slave.10.Archaic. to enslave.

I can understand there may be certain degrees of slavery, just like there are certain degrees of murder. So do you justify lesser degrees of murder because one is not as brutal as the last? (do not confuse with manslaughter)

But the fact remains the same: a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant. = SLAVE (not farm hand)

I don't care if the Hebrews were enslaved for 430 years. It is wrong
I don't care if you enslave someone for a day. It is wrong

God, if anyone should know the difference and not subject anyone to slavery (if indeed it is a sin). Just because the Hebrews have a jubilee every 50 years and let some slaves go, it does not justify the fact that these people were forced to work for them. You claim we practice slavery here today but that is not the case. Slaves are made to work, they don't have a choice. I can quit my minimum wage job, a slave can't.

You are the one who told me:


The human condition has not changed. Remember, these are not words for a particular time or place, but these are eternal words. God has it set in His mind to provide one book for the ages so how will He express it?

So are we allowed to keep slaves because the human condition has not changed and Gods words are eternal?

If God expresses his eternal words by enslaving [Leviticus 25:44-46, Exodus 21:2-6, Luke 12:47-48], ordering the deaths of people for expressing their "god given" free-will [Leviticus 21:9, Leviticus 20:10, Leviticus 20:9, Proverbs 20:20, Exodus 21:15], God talking about killing children in and out of the womb. (Prolife?) [Hosea 9:11-16, Ezekiel 9:5-7, Leviticus 26:21-22] More killing and rape [Isaiah 13:15-18, Judges 21:10-24, Numbers 31:7-18, Deuteronomy 22:28-29, Deuteronomy 22:23-24, 2 Samuel 12:11-14]

I can go on and on but it makes me tired looking for murder, rape and death sentences all day. I think the above proves my point. It is not realistic to put someone to death for adultery or having other gods. So the bible is not "one book for the ages". It was intended for use 2000+ years ago. After all Jesus didn't even full fill his own prophesy in [Matthew 24:25-34] ~34I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened~. So the bible was never meant to reach our ears, Jesus was meant to come back around 1920 years ago.

[DD2014]

God does abolish slavery, that is, oppressive slavery.
Actually its ratification by the requisite three-quarters of the states, the 13th Amendment is formally adopted into the U.S. Constitution on Dec 18, 1865 (not by God, but the amarican people). ensuring that "neither slavery nor involuntary servitude... shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction but not untill 1865.


If Israel did what you wanted them to do, they would actually lose land and crops because of the Pagan intrusion and confusion. Satan is the author of confusion. Your approach is not progressive but regressive, falling back into darker ages, because Israel would have been overwhelmed and taken advantage of.

You assume too much. Mabey if the Hebrews didn't kidnapp any of the other pagans to take as slaves they could get along with the them. Instead of putting them to death for worshiping their gods, they could have practiced diplomacy and tolorence. After diplomacy and tolorence comes peace and after peace comes trade. There is more then one way to skin a cat. You don't need to resort to slavery under a supposed "just" God. If he can create everything you would think he could find a peaceful way to help his "chosen" people that does not involve slavery.


Today you can be a fortune teller and a medium, but you won't be put to death for it, though this sin leads to death, for it is a lie and a lie is not healthy for your spirit, soul and body.

First, you have no evidence that supports your claim that sin is bad for your health. Life leads to death. Not sin. Even Jesus (who is claimed to be without sin) died. You could go your whole without sinning and you will still die.
Example: A person who is a murderer walks across the street and is hit by a bus. He dies.
Now a one year old child (who does not know what sin is) walks into the street and is hit by a bus. He dies.
Now who lived longer? obviosly the criminal and it had nothing to do with what sins he has commited.
Your claim does not hold water.


It is illogical to apply today's standards to then, and I think that is disingenuous of you. If I may say, it is like you are sitting on a pedestal judging how God is dealing with difficult times in history from an improved conscience today

If it is illogical then don't claim:

...these are not words for a particular time or place, but these are eternal words. God has it set in His mind to provide one book for the ages so how will He express it?

Do you see now that it is illogical to follow a book that is out dated by over 2000 years?

[Churchwork]

So are we allowed to keep slaves because the human condition has not changed and Gods words are eternal?

So the bible is not "one book for the ages". It was intended for use 2000+ years ago. After all Jesus didn't even full fill his own prophesy in [Matthew 24:25-34] ~34I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened~. So the bible was never meant to reach our ears, Jesus was meant to come back around 1920 years ago.
Slavery of the kind in Scripture under Israel is not for today, for that was under the Old Covenant, under the law. It ended with Christ when He came to fill up the law. Read Matthew 5-7 on how this filling up works.

Matt. 24.25-34 is fulfilled at the end of this age and when Christ returns. Obviously this generation still exists. The problem is how you are reading the word "generation".

v.25 “Behold, I have told you beforehand”—How precious are these words, because the Lord foretells to us the things at the end. Is it not great to know future things? We may thus escape the unexpected. Unfortunately, saints fail to treasure these words. Whenever the Scriptures use the term “Behold” it suggests that something important will follow. Accordingly, we know the significance here of this Olivet prophecy. The word of prophecy, we are told, is likened to a lamp shining in a dark place (2 Peter 1.19). Neglecting it, one may easily fall into darkness. Many nowadays look upon society, nation, or the world with great expectation and hope. How misplaced is such hope. And this is because they lack the shining lamp. The Lord has told us beforehand. If we suffer at the end, we ourselves will be held responsible.

v.26 False Christs (and false prophets) have already been mentioned or alluded to several times (see verses 5,11,23,24). Here they are again alluded to in order to show how serious the situation is. “The wilderness” speaks of any place that is separated from the general intercourse with the world. While John the Baptist was in the wilderness he was asked if he were the Christ. “Inner chambers” denote a secret place, that which is not open to the public. Human psychology is such that it attaches great power and attraction to anything secretive. Yet the moment something becomes open, it loses its power. Did not the Corinthian believers, for example, despise Paul, saying that “his bodily presence is weak, and his speech of no account” (2 Cor. 10.10)?

v.27 “Lightning” flashes in the sky and everybody sees it, whereas by contrast “the wilderness” is hidden from many eyes. The Lord’s appearing is absolutely open. He shall come in the cloud. If anyone suggests that the Lord will come to the earth stealthily, do not believe him. Nevertheless, the first rapture does happen secretly, and the Lord’s coming from the throne to the air is also in secret. Just as the lightning is first hidden in the clouds until the time of its flashing in the sky, so Christ will hide himself in the cloud until the right moment for His appearing (see Rev. 1.7, Acts 1.11). According to the record of the book of Acts, at His ascension the Lord was first taken up without any cloud, and only then was He received by a cloud. Even so shall be His coming again, except the order will at that time be reversed. First, He will be hidden by the cloud (which will include the rapture), and next will He appear publicly (by that time all the saints will have been raptured before His appearing). So that what we are waiting for in parousia is not the coming but the going.

v.28 “Carcase” and “eagles”—The word “carcase” is commonly interpreted as representing “Christ” and the term “eagles” as symbolizing Christians. According to this interpretation, this has reference to the breaking of bread, in that after the death of Christ the Christians eat His flesh. But such interpretation is not only untrustworthy, it is also absurd; it even borders on blasphemy. For the Scriptures speak of the life of the Lord as well as the death of the Lord. The One in whom we believe is the Lord who was dead and has been resurrected: for “if Christ hath not been raised,” says Paul, “then is our preaching vain, your faith also is vain” (1 Cor. 15.14). Furthermore, a “carcase” (or corpse) decays and stinks (see John 11.39). Thus this word cannot point to Christ.

How, then, should this word be explained? (a) A corpse plus life equals a living person; a living person minus life equals a corpse—so that “carcase” here represents that which has no life, which in other words stands for all who are in Adam (see 1 Cor. 15.22). Believers are no longer in Adam; having received new life, they cannot be called by this term “carcase”: instead, they are called the body of Christ. When they break the bread, they are not dividing up the Lord’s corpse; for the Lord says, “This is my body” (and where there is life, such is not a corpse). (b) A corpse stinks as it decays (John 11.39 mg.; 1 Cor. 15.50,53 ). That is why a man is buried after he dies (see Gen. 23.4). Hence “carcase” here also signifies the decay of those dead in Adam.

The word “eagles” has several applications in the Bible: (a) The people of God. See Isaiah 40.31 and Deuteronomy 32.11. These two passages lay stress on the flying of the eagles. (b) In Leviticus, an eagle is classified as an abomination among the birds (11.13), for it devours dead flesh (see Rev. 19.17-18, 21b). The devouring of corpses by eagles (“all the birds that fly in mid heaven”) as told in Revelation signifies God’s judgment; so too is it here in Matthew. Wherever the corruption of the dead in Adam is, there also is the judgment of God. (Both the words “eagles” and “carcase” are interpreted spiritually here because the word “lightning” in the preceding verse is used in parabolic fashion too).

v.29 The words “immediately after” are most important in fixing the time. The sun and the moon and the stars should be taken literally. Some try to explain them symbolically as kings, princes and chief captains being shaken; but such an interpretation is unacceptable; because were this the case, the sun and moon and stars would have had to have been shaken before the appearing of the Lord.

The distress mentioned here in Matthew 24.29 is the same as that spoken of in Revelation 6.12-13—except that the time is different. In Revelation we notice that all seven seals (of which these celestial phenomena are the consequences of the sixth seal) are broken at the beginning of the Tribulation, with the seals then followed by further and greater trials in the trumpets and bowls; but here these same celestial things occur after the Tribulation: “But immediately after the tribulation of those days”; hence at the beginning of the Great Tribulation there is a change in these celestial bodies, and likewise at the end of the Tribulation there is still another celestial catastrophe. What we find stated in Joel 2.31 is the same as the sixth seal in Revelation 6, for Joel plainly mentions that these things will occur “before the great and terrible day of Jehovah cometh” (2.31b). Matthew, though, clearly states that such phenomena will take place “immediately after the tribulation of those days” (24.29). These changes in celestial bodies must therefore happen twice.

v.30 “Then” is the time after what is described in verse 29 has happened. We do not know what will be this sign of the Son of man. The familiar views are: (a) the Lord himself—but this is unacceptable since the Lord declares explicitly “the sign of the Son of man” and not the Son of man himself; and (b) the cross—with this being based on the sign of Jonah which the Lord gave to the scribes and the Pharisees as noted in Matthew 12. Although this is a definite possibility, we do not have a full conviction that it is so. Consequently, we will reserve our judgment on this view. One thing we do know, however, is that this sign must be something supernatural and mysterious.

“In heaven”—Since the sign appears in heaven, all the tribes of the earth shall see it. “All the tribes of the earth” refers to the twelve tribes of Israel. They shall mourn and weep (see Zech. 12.10-14).

“With power and great glory”—At His first coming, the Lord manifested both great authority (in that He cast out demons and healed the sick) and glory. At His second coming, He will manifest power and glory. At His first coming, people marveled at His teaching and authority (Matt. 7.28). The Pharisees questioned Him as to the source of His authority (Matt. 21.23). A centurion believed in His authority (Matt. 8.8-9). But at His second coming, He will not only manifest authority but also power. He will not ride on a colt (as the Prince of Peace) but will ride instead on a white horse. Power is used in executing the judgment of God. In the future Satan will greatly increase his lawless works; so the Lord will destroy him with power. The difference between power and authority may be illustrated by the driving of a car (power) in contrast to the directing given by a policeman (authority). At His first coming our Lord healed the sick, cast out demons, and calmed the storm—all these being demonstrations of authority. Even when He overturned tables and drove out sheep and oxen with a scourge of cords, He did not use the whip on men. Only at His second coming will He exercise such power.

v.31 This verse is the fulfillment of Matthew 23.39: “Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord”—After the Great Tribulation, the Lord will “gather together His elect”: the “elect” or “chosen” are the Jews who are scattered among the nations. “From the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other”—This does not denote rapture, for here it is the idea of erchomai, not parousia. Here is a gathering together (see Deut. 30.3-5). After the destruction of Jerusalem, the Jews were either killed or captured. They were scattered to the nations. Now, the Lord begins to call them back (see Is. 43.5-7). They shall return from the east, the west, the north, and the south. Some shall even come from the land of Sinim (Is. 49.9-13). Now Sinim means China, and in Hunan province there is a large number of Jews, who, incidentally, take the family name of Tsan. See also Isaiah 49.22-26, 51.11, 56.8, 60.4, 62.10-12, 27.13; Ezekiel 34.13, 37.21, 28.25. “From the four winds”—Wind is moving all the time: the Jews have no settled place in which to live but wander all over the world.

The gathering spoken of here is not the rapture of the church, because (1) parousia has already passed, and rapture is within the scope of parousia; (2) this is a gathering together, and hence it has no connection with parousia; (3) if it were indeed parousia it would be totally foreign to the meaning of the preceding passage; (4) by it pointing to the Jews it agrees with Matthew 23.37; (5) at the trump of God, the Lord would come to the air; and (6) the context proves to be concerning the Jews.



Jesus’ End-Time Prophecy, Part Two: Concerning the Church 24.32-25.30


A. LESSONS FROM THE FIG TREE AND THE DAYS OF NOAH, 24.32-42

v.32 The word “now” marks the beginning of the second part. Since the Lord gives this part of His prophecy on the Mount of Olives—a place where there are many fig trees —He quite naturally could use the fig tree as an illustration. “When her branch is now become tender”—This speaks of the return of life. “And putteth forth its leaves”—This means the manifestation of life. The fig tree represents the Jews (Jer. 24.2,5,8). Earlier the Lord had cursed the fig tree which possessed only leaves but had no fruit. In reality the curse was upon the Jews who possessed the outward rituals but had no reality. “Summer” is the season of growth as winter is the season of withering and death. In the summer, life shows its greatest vigor, the air is warm, and the days are bright. It is a golden season, and therefore it stands for the kingdom. The Jews today are in the winter time. Winter points to tribulation, particularly the Great Tribulation. Spring speaks of rapture (see S.S. 2.10-14); summer speaks of the kingdom (see Luke 21.30-31). In Luke 21.29-30 we have the words “and all the trees”—which phrase represents the nations (see Daniel 4.10-17 and Judges 9.8-15). When “all the trees ... now shoot forth” (Luke 21.29-30), this is a signifying that nationalism will have been greatly developed among many peoples and nations.

v.33 Let us understand that the preceding verses 4-31 form a part and are not a break with what follows; and hence the thoughts in the earlier part are continuous into the next. The major difference between 24.4-31 and 24.32-25.46 lies in this: that the one part speaks about the Jews while the other part speaks about the church.

“All these things”—Such words should be connected with 23.36 (“All these things shall come upon this generation”), with 24.6 (“these things”), and with 24.8 (“all these things”). “All these things” have reference to the beginning of tribulation, as reflected in such things as false Christs, wars, famines, pestilences, earthquakes, and so forth.
“He is nigh”—“It is nigh” (mg.) is the more accurate rendering of this phrase in the Greek text. The “it” points to the kingdom. The kingdom is near, “even at the doors”: this agrees with Luke—“Even so ye also, when ye see these things coming to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh” (21.31).


v.34 “This generation”—The Greek text is genea, not aion. The Chinese deem 30 years to be a generation; the West reckons 40 years as such. Neither calculation is applicable here, for had it been either case, all these things would have had to have been fulfilled in the lifetime of those living at the time of Matthew and thus all would have become past history. On the basis of such an interpretation (that is, that the meaning of “generation” is in terms of a given period of years) the historians maintain that Matthew 24 is already past: they argue that Titus destroyed Jerusalem exactly 40 years after the Lord had spoken these words recorded here in verse 34 and that therefore the word “generation” is here used in its most general sense.

Some try to avoid the problem by changing “generation” into “race”—the race of the Jewish people. But this is unlikely because (1) Matthew 1.17 says, “So all the generations from Abraham unto David are fourteen generations”; (2) we must not alter a word simply because of a difficulty, and (3) had this word been “race” in its translation, then such an explanation would mean that the Jewish race has the possibility of being destroyed since the Lord in fact declares that “this generation shall not pass away till all these things be accomplished” (v.34).

How, then, should genea be explained? We should try to find the clue from the Old Testament:

“Thou wilt keep them, O Jehovah, thou wilt preserve them from this generation for ever” (Ps. 12.7). This is a generation not in terms of a physical, but a moral, relationship.

“They are a perverse and crooked generation” (Deut. 32.5). The genea (Hebrew, dor) here is not 30 or 40 years or even a lifetime. As long as perversity and crookedness last, just so is the duration of that generation.

“For they are a very perverse generation, children in whom is no faithfulness” (Dent. 32.20). The generation continues as long as unfaithfulness persists.

“There is a generation that curse their father, and bless not their mother. There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet are not washed from their filthiness. There is a generation, oh how lofty are their eyes! And their eyelids are lifted up. There is a generation whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men” (Prov. 30.11-14). Obviously, such a generation is not limited to a few decades or a lifetime; rather, it points to a period marked by certain immoral characteristics.

We may receive further light from the Gospel of Matthew itself:

“But whereunto shall I liken this generation. . .?” (11.16-19).

“An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet . . . The men of Nineveh shall stand up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, a greater than Jonah is here” (12.39,41).

“The queen of the south shall rise in the judgment with this generation . . . Even so shall it be also unto this evil generation” (12.42,45 ).

“All these things shall come upon this generation” (23.36).

This evil generation will last just as long as evil and adultery remain. Hence the meaning of genea in 24.34 is a period of time characterized by evil, adultery, perverseness, and crookedness. Such a period has not yet passed away, and will pass away only after all these things are accomplished.

“This generation” includes three classes of people: (1) the Gentiles who worship idols and reject God; (2) those Jews who reject Christ; and (3) the apostates—the so-called modernists. Before all these people pass away, all these things will be accomplished. The Lord will come and destroy them. Before the coming of the kingdom, all these things shall be fulfilled.
We should thus see the distinction among these three Greek words used in the Bible: kosmos is the world, aion is the age, and genea is the generation.

[Churchwork]

You assume too much. Mabey if the Hebrews didn't kidnapp any of the other pagans to take as slaves they could get along with the them.
It's hard to get along with these tribes when they are always attacking you and practicing human and child sacrifices. Suffice it to say you lose, because Israel remains, and your no longer existent nations you are defending have ceased to exist permanently.



First, you have no evidence that supports your claim that sin is bad for your health. Life leads to death. Not sin. Even Jesus (who is claimed to be without sin) died. You could go your whole without sinning and you will still die.
Example: A person who is a murderer walks across the street and is hit by a bus. He dies.
Now a one year old child (who does not know what sin is) walks into the street and is hit by a bus. He dies.
Now who lived longer? obviosly the criminal and it had nothing to do with what sins he has commited.
Your claim does not hold water.

If you smoke too much, drink too much, for example, the probability of you dying increases. No human being has not sinned which is the cause of your death. Jesus didn't die for the same reason you will die. He died for your sins. The person who hits another person and the latter dies is sin related. Since no human being is sinless, however that death comes about ultimately is irrelevant to prove the point sin leads to death. Some people do get hit the crossfire, but that death will not prevent them from being saved, for God would not let anyone die a premature death who could have been saved. He accounts for all things even every last hair on your head.

While Christians have already died in Christ and shall be resurrected at the last trumpet (1 Thess. 4.15-17) together with the Saints of Old, you will die in your sins and be resurrected a thousand years after to be judged by God at Great White Throne and to be cast into eternal damnation, an eternal separation from God and awareness of your wrong choice for forever.

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" (Rev. 20.5).

"And death and hades [place of timeless unawares where you await resurrection and where the Rich Man is in the bad side of Hades] were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20.14-15).


If it is illogical then don't claim: Do you see now that it is illogical to follow a book that is out dated by over 2000 years?
It's all in how you are reading with a fleshly mind, missing the original intent. You can still learn spiritual principles from the Old Covenant even though we are no longer under the law. Understand the principle behind circumcision, for example, for it is representing the flesh being irredeemable, and its only verdict is death. That is why you die on the cross with Christ to put to death your old man and having put to death the old man in you, you have true power over the flesh to put to naught the deeds of the flesh. But of course, to die on the cross with Christ, you must believe in what He did for you to receive forgiveness of sins; otherwise, you surely will go to Hell which speaks of your person.

Do you see how it is illogical to misread the original intent? At the very least never think the Bible was written just for a time, but it was clearly for the ages. All 66 books. The reason for 66 books is because Isaiah had 66 chapters and he was the greates prophet of the OT, but also because 6 is the number of Satan and it is also the number of man (shown in various ways through Scripture), and the Bible is the Redemptive Design showing how to break this union you share with him.

[DD2014]

It's hard to get along with these tribes when they are always attacking you and practicing human and child sacrifices.

So did the Hebrews;)

Jephthah Burns His Daughter

"At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, "If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."

"So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory. He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith – twenty towns – and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter – his only child – ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy. When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish. "My daughter!" he cried out. "My heart is breaking! What a tragedy that you came out to greet me. For I have made a vow to the LORD and cannot take it back." And she said, "Father, you have made a promise to the LORD. You must do to me what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites. But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin." "You may go," Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children. When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah's daughter." (Judges 11:29-40 NLT)

Burn Nonbelievers

"Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

God Commands Burning Humans

[The Lord speaking] "The one who has stolen what was set apart for destruction will himself be burned with fire, along with everything he has, for he has broken the covenant of the LORD and has done a horrible thing in Israel." (Joshua 7:15 NLT)

[Churchwork]

This particular sacrifice was a sin, an improper vow, that was lamented. It was a turning away from the standard of that day of human sacrifices. Like Isaac was to be sacrificed then spared to show a better way, while the tribes surrounding Israel kept on sacrificing their children into the fiery mouth of the Molech god.

Israel was assigned to wipe these Nations out because God knew they would not stop that practice. Their evil was so great, the question that comes to my mind is, Why do you defend them? They don't even exist anymore.


[The Lord speaking] "The one who has stolen what was set apart for destruction will himself be burned with fire, along with everything he has, for he has broken the covenant of the LORD and has done a horrible thing in Israel." (Joshua 7:15 NLT)
What was to be set apart for God was stolen by some people in Israel with grave consequences. Criminal behavior is dealt with. If they were not killed, the problem would get worse and Israel could not be preserved for God's purposes to bring in the Messiah. It always comes back to the Messiah who is our burnt offering. Of course, we deal with things differently today because we are no longer under the law but the Spirit of the law. I think it would help you a lot to realize God's response is commensurate with the condition of man's heart. The exponential progression of conscience is increasing so there is a different response by God under the New Covenant. Can you see that?




Well I guess I am what you would call Anti - Religious. I belive in looking at the facts and not in blind faith. I left the Church because of many reasons but the big 3 I guess would be, (1) All the inconsistencies in the bible (2) Intolerance (3) The lack of Evidence for the existence of God.


I really want to understand what drives people to belive the things that are in the bible, and in the people that teach them.

I believe you don't like to look at the facts, nor are you coming to the table with an honest heart (it's a dishonest heart), but rather seek only to rationalize your own blind faith which is a religiosity of self, hostility and independency to God, and effectively eternal separation from God. You never were in Church, for the Bible teaches once-saved-always-saved. You ought to know this already since it is clearly stated in Scripture. Realize when you are contradicting yourself. If you were genuine, you would admit you never were in the Church. Here is your problem:

1) Everything that you thought was an inconsistency has been shown to be consistent which you present no challenge with any reply.
2) You haven't shown any Christians being intolerant to you. However, you must appreciate a certain distance a Christian should keep themselves from you, because you are unhealthy to be around, just like it is unhealthy to let a rapist near his potential victims. God said don't be unequally yoked with non-believers. In the end you are going to Hell, already condemned (John 3.18), for if you were to die this moment, you would surely be resurrected for Hell at the end the 1000 years.
3) You could not refute the evidence given for God that nothing in nature happens all by itself, nor present any challenge to the exponential progression of conscience, disallowing an eternity of the past of cause and effects in the 4 Step Proof for God (http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2256).

Therefore, all you have is your blind faith which brings you to Hell. How sad for you.

[DD2014]

You never were in Church, for the Bible teaches once-saved-always-saved. You ought to know this already since it is clearly stated in Scripture.

Their is a problem with that 'cause If I no longer belive in "God", the Bible or Jesus then why would I still belive once-saved-always-saved? That is stupid. Look if it makes you feel better then you are right I NEVER WAS IN ANY CHURCH AND NEVER WILL BE.

But you still must realize the contradiction you made. If I did once belive then I must always be saved. So please stop being a hyopcrite and telling me I'm going to hell. Because according to your "God" I WON"T

[Churchwork]

The problem is you are being inconsistent. By saying you once believed in God you would have to admit you believed in once-saved-always-saved, but actually you did not otherwise you would never leave, for true salvation is a choice for forever. Therefore, whatever you were involved in was false to begin with. You said you were in the Church and you said you never were in any Church. You are a never ending contradiction all the way to Hell.

You are going to Hell because you were never saved and never want to be apparently. According to God you will, therefore, go to Hell. You're just a bad guy, that's all, on his way to Hell. Nothing new under the son. But how sad for you to be eternally separated from God. The life you live now is a foretaste of Hell.

Remember, to believe in Christ, once-saved-always-saved, is not to then deny Christ and think you are still saved so you won't go to Hell. How absurd! Rather, you never believed in the Christ to begin with, but it was a false Christ. Do you see that?

[onlytruth]

dd2014
you are asking the right questions...God is not offended or scared(organized religion is)
seek him out he will show himself
blessings:)

[Churchwork]

dd2014 you are asking the right questions...God is not offended or scared(organized religion is) seek him out he will show himself blessings
Whether the organized religion of atheism or Christendom is scared or not, I believe DD2014 is not asking the right questions because he gives a list of 42 alleged contradictions elsewhere, avoids the response given by Crispus then lists a bunch more in other threads jumping around like a banshee. What makes you think the 1000th or 10,000 alleged contradiction is going to make a difference when to prove Jesus is God by His resurrection does not depend on demanding inerrancy, so to attack inerrancy in no way refutes the resurrection accounts by the eyewitnesses.

Since Paul said he met James, Peter and John who said they saw Jesus resurrected also, let this be the proof, for people don't die for something they know to be a lie and group hallucinations are impossible.

This is called the Minimal Facts Approach I first learned about by Gary R. Habermas. In other words, you only need concern yourself with what Jesus said would be the best proof of Him being God. You can worry about other issues later.

Since the Bible warns about greater Christendom in Matt. 13 and Rev. 17 and against denominations, it really should not be an issue for you there are many false Christians. Just as the evil spirit works in the world so he tries to work within the outward appearance of the kingdom of heaven. That's no reason to reject Christ.

[WonkoTSane]

By the fact that nothing in nature happens all by itself. If nothing in nature can happen all by itself, then nature can't cause itself and must be caused by the only remaining possibility that which is uncaused. God is the uncaused creator and intelligent designer-Churchwork

This argument is nothing more than special pleading at it's simplest and most obvious. First, churchwork, you make the argument that nothing happens in nature all by itself. However, of course, this argument then applys to your god...if nothing happens in nature all by itself then god needs a creator. However, you quickly exempt your god from this very logic. Let's take a look at the special pleading fallacy:
Special pleading is a form of spurious argumentation where a position in a dispute introduces favorable details or excludes unfavorable details by alleging a need to apply additional considerations without proper criticism of these considerations themselves. Essentially, this involves someone attempting to cite something as an exemption to a generally accepted rule, principle, etc. without justifying the exemption.
We see then that your attempt to exempt god from your own argument is, in fact, nothing more than special pleading. The attempt to cite something as an exemption to a generally accepted rule, principle, etc, without justifying the exemption.
Whereas, nature itself needs no such exemption. At the heart of all that is is energy. You, trees, rocks, water, are all ultimately energy. We know that energy can neither be created or destroyed. This is the first law of thermodynamics:The First Law states that energy cannot be created or destroyed; rather, the amount of energy lost in a steady state process cannot be greater than the amount of energy gained. The First Law clarifies the nature of energy. It is a stored quantity which is independent of any particular process path, i.e., it is independent of the system history. If a system undergoes a thermodynamic cycle, whether it becomes warmer, cooler, larger, or smaller, then it will have the same amount of energy each time it returns to a particular state. This is both mathmatically and experimentally proveable. So, there is no need for me to resort to any sort of special plea for the consideration of why energy has to be considered eternal because of (fill in the blank). Whereas god DOES need to have special considerations applied which are themselves untestable, unverifiable and unprovable. Again, the very definition of special pleading.

[Churchwork]

This argument is nothing more than special pleading at it's simplest and most obvious. First, churchwork, you make the argument that nothing happens in nature all by itself. However, of course, this argument then applys to your god...if nothing happens in nature all by itself then god needs a creator. However, you quickly exempt your god from this very logic.
All we have done is show that the uncreated must exist, because nature can't cause itself. Knowing this, we give the uncreated a name we call God of the Bible since none can compare to Christ. Your argument is silly because it is saying the uncreated has to be created too. That is a contradiction. That's special pleading.



Whereas, nature itself needs no such exemption. At the heart of all that is is energy.

What you are really arguing for here is an eternity of the past of cause and effects, but this is impossible because of the exponential progression of conscience, that mankind would not still be sinning to the extent it still does if there was an eternity of the past of cause and effects.

And you know Jesus is God by proof of His resurrection which you could not challenge.

The reason why all this concerns you is because if you don't accept what Jesus did for you on the cross, you most assuredly will be going to Hell.

[WonkoTSane]

Here, let me show you special pleading, again.
Special pleading is a form of spurious argumentation where a position in a dispute introduces favorable details or excludes unfavorable details by alleging a need to apply additional considerations without proper criticism of these considerations themselves. Essentially, this involves someone attempting to cite something as an exemption to a generally accepted rule, principle, etc. without justifying the exemption.
I have shown that the universe DOESN'T need a "first cause" as the universe is ENERGY and energy is ETERNAL. I showed this by posting the first law of thermodynamics. Let me show THIS again:Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. It can only change forms. In any process, the total energy of the universe remains the same. The First Law clarifies the nature of energy. It is a stored quantity which is independent of any particular process path, i.e., it is independent of the system history. If a system undergoes a thermodynamic cycle, whether it becomes warmer, cooler, larger, or smaller, then it will have the same amount of energy each time it returns to a particular state.
So, I have demonstrated that the universe needs to special exemptions to explain how it can have always been. The first law of thermodynamics is mathmatically and experimentally proveable.
YOU, on the other hand, have not demonstrated why GOD does not need a "first cause" other than to state that GOD is eternal without providing why YOUR explanation must be exempt from YOUR assertion that nothing in nature can create itself yet GOD is the uncaused cause. If you are going to argue this position, you must support this position. Otherwise, simply stating that YOUR position is exempt from your own argument is SPECIAL PLEADING, a logic fallacy.
What you are really arguing for here is an eternity of the past of cause and effects, but this is impossible because of the exponential progression of conscience, that mankind would not still be sinning to the extent it still does if there was an eternity of the past of cause and effects-Churchwork
My argument has nothing to do with CONSCIENCE or SIN. My argument proceeds from the simple fact that you are proceeding from a logical fallacy, that of special pleading. Further, as already stated, my argument is that the universe does NOT need a "first cause" as the universe, being composed of energy which is eternal, is in fact ETERNAL. YOU, on the other hand, offer no support to your position of God being outside of YOUR OWN proposition that "nothing in nature can create itself". If you are going to try to exempt your god from this then you MUST support your position, as I have. Please try to remain on topic.
The reason why all this concerns you is because if you don't accept what Jesus did for you on the cross, you most assuredly will be going to Hell-churchwork
THIS is an ad hominem attack. That is, attacking the person who is making the argument rather than responding to the argument. Please try to remain on topic.

[Churchwork]

Special pleading is a form of spurious argumentation where a position in a dispute introduces favorable details or excludes unfavorable details by alleging a need to apply additional considerations without proper criticism of these considerations themselves. Essentially, this involves someone attempting to cite something as an exemption to a generally accepted rule, principle, etc. without justifying the exemption.
Do you see how you commit this fallacy by claiming the universe has an exemption to the trillions of examples of causes observable in nature, or by denying the observable fact in nature of our exponential progression of conscience?


I have shown that the universe DOESN'T need a "first cause" as the universe is ENERGY and energy is ETERNAL.
The exponential progression of conscience law disallows an eternity of the past of cause and effects. Therefore, the energy was created out of the uncreated. What you are requesting is a special exception contrary to the fact of nature.


YOU, on the other hand, have not demonstrated why GOD does not need a "first cause" other than to state that GOD is eternal without providing why YOUR explanation must be exempt from YOUR assertion that nothing in nature can create itself yet GOD is the uncaused cause.
Since the uncreated is proven, God of the Bible proves He is this uncreated by proof of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is, therefore, illogical to require a cause for that which is uncaused.


My argument has nothing to do with CONSCIENCE or SIN. My argument proceeds from the simple fact that you are proceeding from a logical fallacy, that of special pleading. Further, as already stated, my argument is that the universe does NOT need a "first cause" as the universe, being composed of energy which is eternal, is in fact ETERNAL. YOU, on the other hand, offer no support to your position of God being outside of YOUR OWN proposition that "nothing in nature can create itself". If you are going to try to exempt your god from this then you MUST support your position, as I have. Please try to remain on topic.
The exponential progression of conscience disproves your theory that the universe doesn't need to be created. Since you are not observing the evidence of the exponential progression of conscience that disallows the eternity of the past of cause and effects, you are not being honest with yourself. You're just special pleading and shutting your mind down to this information that disproves your theory.


THIS is an ad hominem attack. That is, attacking the person who is making the argument rather than responding to the argument. Please try to remain on topic.
Not at all. Since the uncreated is proven to exist and Jesus is proven to be God, and He said you are going to Hell if you reject His atonement, then you most certainly are going to Hell. One logical proof leads to the next and are undeniable. Since you can't cease to exist and you can't be with God's people, where else can you go but Hell? This is central to everything, so you are without excuse. Hell is the place of eternal separation from God that you yourself send yourself to. You have a foretaste of Hell even now when you wake up in the morning and as you move about through the day, when you go to sleep at night and dream also. You know what Hell is like more than any of us.

[WonkoTSane]

Your little theory is easily defeated, Churchwork. Mans existence in this universe has been for a finite time. Even your bible only traces mans existence back some six thousand years. Meanwhile the universe has existed for eternity. Divide any finite into eternity and you get zero.

Meanwhile, of course, you fail to respond to my arguments.

Epic fail.

[Churchwork]

Your little theory is easily defeated, Churchwork. Mans existence in this universe has been for a finite time. Even your bible only traces mans existence back some six thousand years. Meanwhile the universe has existed for eternity. Divide any finite into eternity and you get zero.

Meanwhile, of course, you fail to respond to my arguments.
I did respond to your arguments. See my previous post. You're just misunderstanding. Try to understand. Yes, the first God-conscious man and woman began about six thousand years ago, made in God's image, when God breathed into the body from dust (over 13.7 billion years, Gen. 2.7) directly creating man's spirit, and when the spirit made contact with the body the soul life was created.

In calculus anything derived from an eternity of the past is deemed as effectively existing for an eternity. This is the law of limits, so if there was as you assumed, though without any evidence, an eternity of the past of cause and effects, mankind would not have existed for an eternity, but certainly long enough not to have still been sinning to the extent it still does according to what we scientifically observe in the exponential progression of conscience.

Try to understand and come out of your closed box. There is something outside your box. And it is not focused only on the material and self, but sin and morality, submission and obedience, fellowship and communion, relationship and life, redemption and deliverance, resurrection and eternity, separation or eternal blessings.

As per your request in your pm I remove your account. If you want to rejoin again, please cut out the profanity, and try to gain control of yourself and your emotions. Maintain a certain dignity and composure, conscientiousness, consideration and empathy.

[DD2014]

And you know Jesus is God by proof of His resurrection which you could not challenge.

I am quoting a friend of mine (just so you know)

-The assumption is: The disciples would not have lied about a resurrection when they knew that it would mean a death sentence. That is, any rational person would rather deny something that they already knew to be false rather than be tortured to death. If they had hidden the body, they would know that the resurrection was false and even if tempted to start a new religion, they would recant under torture. Thus, it is assumed that they really did believe it to be true. And since they are regarded as first-hand witnesses, their testimony is taken to be compelling.

I'm not so sure that this last part can be considered so ironclad. I've seen people put up with the most degrading conditions and abusive behavior from their religious leaders, and remain fully convinced of the spiritual goodness of the leaders. A recent documentary on the "Strong City" cult by National Geographic shows a group of people that are following a messiah figure who was recently arrested for sexual impropriety with the younger members, yet the members remain doe-eyed and dedicated to this man. The documentary concluded with footage from the night that the leader predicted would be the end of the world. Of course the world didn't end, and the followers instantly re-wired the prediction from a literal end to a spiritual end. They all shouted with glee, "Liberty! We no longer exist!" They will gladly follow this man to death. Examples like this make it entirely possible that the apostles of Jesus were as unswervingly dedicated to him even if they had to make-believe that he rose from the dead. Once people have a strong emotional/spiritual investment in following, it is very difficult to convince them that they have been deceived.

Religion becomes a filter through which reality is interpreted. When the religion is questioned, it seems to the believer that the foundations of reality are being questioned, and that is a deeply disturbing thing. So most people laugh off any accusations or questions about their faith, or make bold proclamations of divine judgment against the one doing the questioning. So again, while entire books have been written about the strong testimonial value of the apostles, when their statements and actions are compared with common cultic reactions to loss of leadership, there is not much difference. And since it is not possible that each of the thousands of cult leaders around the world are really "the messiah", the dedication of the followers to their leader is not an indication of the truth of their religion.-

As you can see the "proof" you claim to validate the resurrection really just proves how gullable people are. Not that Jesus was resurrected.

[Churchwork]

I'm not so sure that this last part can be considered so ironclad. I've seen people put up with the most degrading conditions and abusive behavior from their religious leaders, and remain fully convinced of the spiritual goodness of the leaders.
Exactly, so the point being, they truly believed it and endured whatever abuse comes, so contrary to your view, it is ironclad. There are no reported cases in history of people dying for something they knew not to be true.


Once people have a strong emotional/spiritual investment in following, it is very difficult to convince them that they have been deceived.
Originally, the Apostles doubted Jesus was resurrected when they were told by the women. In your example, those followers still truly believed the delusion. Whereas the Apostles never changed their eyewitness claim they saw Jesus resurrected physically. Can you see the difference in both cases? One is based on delusion, the other is based on eyewitnessing.


Religion becomes a filter through which reality is interpreted. When the religion is questioned, it seems to the believer that the foundations of reality are being questioned, and that is a deeply disturbing thing. So most people laugh off any accusations or questions about their faith.
The same is true of atheism.


when their statements and actions are compared with common cultic reactions to loss of leadership, there is not much difference. And since it is not possible that each of the thousands of cult leaders around the world are really "the messiah", the dedication of the followers to their leader is not an indication of the truth of their religion.
But there is a difference, because we're not talking about delusional beliefs, things that can't be verified, but eyewitnessing resurrection. Do you see the power in the latter and why Christianity is the leading religion on the planet? Don't understand the power of historical evidence. The leading case winner in the Guinness Book of Records is a lawyer who won 245 cases in a row. He said the case for the life, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus is the best case he has ever seen. It is ironclad.

Their dedication is not the proof, but the fact that you are unable to find a naturalistic explanation to explain away the multiple attestation in various group settings seeing Jesus resurrected. Thus, if no naturalistic theory meets the data, then we are left with the only known possibility, the uncreated created and revealed Himself to us in Christ and proven by resurrection. Like Spock said on Star Trek, if all known possibilities are impossible, it is what you deemed impossible (atheism is a lie) must be true.


As you can see the "proof" you claim to validate the resurrection really just proves how gullable people are. Not that Jesus was resurrected.
Aren't you being gullible to Satan who plants in your brain Jesus couldn't be resurrected because naturalistically it is impossible without considering the possibility the uncreated exists, since nature can't cause itself, and the Creator entered His creation, died for our sins and was resurrected as His consummate proof? Ultimately, the evil spirit wants you to go to Hell with him, so hasn't he got you right where he wants you by a simple assumption and closed-mindedness on your part? Think of that narrow mindedness as a puny brain limiting the knowledge of reality so that you are independent from the source of your existence; this attitude is Satan's attitude. God is simply giving you what you want in your resurrection. You will be resurrected, judged and thrown into Hell for all eternity where you will be consciously aware of your wrong choice for forever. However wrong, you will never change your mind either. You will truly be where you want to be.

Like C.S. Lewis said, a bunch of people arguing on a train reach the train station. When they get off they are still arguing and go to their respective towns. Unsurprisingly they still argue in their daily affairs to the point they leave their towns and go off into the horizon, each individually building their own shacks and repeating forever the phrase, "I told you so." That's you. You are alone and you will have your own individual confinement, locked up, for forever. I am trying to explain to you what your destiny is though I don't nearly do it justice enough exactly what this place will be like for you, but you have a foretaste even now of what it will be like, so you need not ask anyone what Hell will be like. Just look into yourself to know how you feel, think and live and this will be Hell. A Christian considers this Hell, for we would not want to think like you do, live like you do, and relate like you do because we consider it unhealthy for our spirit, soul and body. We know what it is to live in the old man before being saved, but now the old man has died on the cross with Christ and have been completely forgiven for all our sins. You neither have this forgiveness nor power over the flesh and so, you can't come before God with the righteousness of Christ.

If nothing else, realize a Christian has a conscience that senses this about you and your conscience and intuition are blocked from that sensation because of your love affair with the world and your outer man.

'Don't you realize that friendship with this world makes you an enemy of God? If your aim is to enjoy this world, you can't be a friend of God' (James 4.4).

[DD2014]

Exactly, so the point being, they truly believed it and endured whatever abuse comes, so contrary to your view, it is ironclad. There are no reported cases in history of people dying for something they knew not to be true.

I'm not saying they didn't belive in what they claim happened. I'm saying, just because someone is willing to die or suffer for a belief, does not make that belief true.

[example:] Just because someone truly belives that Allah will give them 72 virgins if they die for him (Allah) Does not make that true. The same goes for all religions/cults/beliefs.


Originally, the Apostles doubted Jesus was resurrected when they were told by the women. In your example, those followers still truly believed the delusion. Whereas the Apostles never changed their eyewitness claim they saw Jesus resurrected physically. Can you see the difference in both cases? One is based on delusion, the other is based on eyewitnessing.

In my example, no one died.


Do you know the 5 stages of grief?

Denial, shock or isolation
Anger
Bargaining
Depression or sadness
Acceptance of the loss

So it makes sense why the apostles would not belive the women (other then the fact that they are women) IT IS PART OF THE GRIEVING PROCESS! So stop using this as "proof" of a resurrection.


The same is true of atheism.

At least we agree on something


Guinness Book of Records is a lawyer who won 245 cases in a row. He said the case for the life, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus is the best case he has ever seen. It is ironclad.

First of all, lawyers have got guilty people out of conviction. That does not mean that the accused is innocent, it just means that they have a good lawyer.

Second. Then why didn't he prove that the resurrection in court?


...you are unable to find a naturalistic explanation to explain away the multiple attestation in various group settings seeing Jesus resurrected

Grief...


Like Spock said on Star Trek, if all known possibilities are impossible, it is what you deemed impossible (atheism is a lie) must be true.

Lol! Ya that is the answer, quote a fictional alien person :D


Aren't you being gullible to Satan who plants in your brain Jesus couldn't be resurrected because naturalistically it is impossible without considering the possibility the uncreated exists, since nature can't cause itself,

Special pleading...


...and the Creator entered His creation, died for our sins and was resurrected as His consummate proof

Again, Grief


You are alone and you will have your own individual confinement, locked up, for forever.

I'm fairly sure that someone out there shares my beliefs. Likewise, the same goes for you

[Churchwork]

I'm not saying they didn't belive in what they claim happened. I'm saying, just because someone is willing to die or suffer for a belief, does not make that belief true.
I am not saying it is true just because they truly believed it, but because there is no naturalistic way to explain it away other than it really happened, since there are no documented cases of group hallucinations no matter how grieved they were. Individually when people hallucinate, they later recant it. The disciples never retracted in their eyewitness accounts in various group settings, group after group, seeing Jesus resurrected. It was multiply attested.