Churchwork
10-04-2007, 05:54 AM
I believe in the pretribulation rapture. How can the Antichrist gain the world's acceptance if there are at least 200 million Christians who pass through the Tribulation?
Since Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36 and Matt. 24.42 are conditional statements for first rapture according to readiness, then not all the church will be raptured before the Tribulation.
Furthermore, your number is wrong so it is misleading. If the savings ratio is about 1 in 200 souls, then 7 billion people divided by 200 = 35,000,000 saved. If only 1/7th (as represented by the Philadelphia church of seven churches in Rev. 2 & 3) of the living saints are raptured before the Tribulation for being watchful, prayerful and keeping the word of His patience, that is 5 million, which leaves only 30 million saints to enter the Tribulation.
Though of course believers will speak up against the Antichrist, the Antichrist will be so convincing, whatever Christians have to say will fall mostly on deaf ears. Remember, the believers that pass through the Tribulation are the ones who were not ready to be received at first rapture. So all the vocal overcomer believers would have already been raptured, leaving a lot of Christians who would not speak up and protecting their own hide.
Would God leave only newborn babes in Christ to be martyred by the Antichrist in the Tribulation, or would they be comforted in their more experienced brethren being martyred also? Believers who were not ready to be received at the first rapture to pass through the Tribulation still have the indwelling Holy Spirit which cannot be taken out of the way.
We will not be left at the tender mercies of the Antichrist to wipe us all out in the Tribulation. There will only be a handful of people to be raptured at the end of the Tribulation.
What percentage of those 30 million believers will not be killed who can say? 1 Thess. 4.15-17 says there are those who are "alive" and "left" which is redundant if it means those who are alive are left. Rather, those who are left are the remains of those who were not raptured at the first rapture.
Some argue that according to I Thessalonians 4.15, the living “shall in no wise precede them who are fallen asleep” -The dead are resurrected at the seventh trumpet; and so timewise, rapture occurs after the Tribulation. Now if there is a first rapture, it will have to take place before the resurrection of the dead. But since this verse distinctly says “shall in no wise,” how then can rapture take place twice? Let me say in reply that it is most precious and significant to find in both verse 15 and verse 17 the qualifying clauses “we that are alive, that are left” - Now to be alive is obviously to be left on earth; why, then, is there this apparent unnecessary repetition? Because it implies that there are people who though alive yet have already gone ahead (that is, raptured) and therefore are no longer left on earth. Would Paul enlist himself among this class of people who are alive and are left? Not at all. He uses the word “we” only because he is speaking at that moment of writing, and the proof of this is that since Paul no longer lives today, he cannot be numbered among those who are left on earth. Our summary conclusion to all this is that the third school of interpretation seems to be the correct one - that is to say, that one group of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation while another group of believers will go through the Tribulation and be raptured afterwards.
The Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way as stated in 2 Thess. 2. There is no other explanation for that.
Before the Great Tribulation, the Holy Spirit returns to heaven. Since the church is with the Holy Spirit, it may be assumed that the whole church is raptured before the Great Tribulation. The basis for this assumption is 2 Thessalonians 2.6-7 where the phrase “one that restraineth” is made to refer to the Holy Spirit. Yet “one that restraineth” cannot be the Holy Spirit, for the subsequent clause - “until he be taken out of the way”- is not the proper terminology to be used in speaking about the Holy Spirit. The Third Person of the Trinity has many different names, such as the Spirit, the Spirit of glory, the Spirit of revelation, etc; and the word “Spirit” is usually present - and even though in one instance the word “Comforter” is used alone, yet from the next clause which follows (“even the Spirit of truth”) it is evident that this has clear reference to the Holy Spirit (John 14.16-17). Never do the Scriptures say the Holy Spirit is “he that restrains”; moreover, how can the Holy Spirit be said to “be taken out of the way”? Furthermore, where does the Bible announce that the Holy Spirit is absent during the Great Tribulation? And how can there be the so-called believers of the Great Tribulation if the Holy Spirit is not present? For no one is saved without the Holy Spirit, He who is born of the Spirit is spirit. Moreover, this matter of the Holy Spirit’s presence during the Great Tribulation is clearly shown in Revelation 5: “and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth” (v.6). The time of the Great Tribulation is the time of the latter rain (see Acts 2.15-21, Joel 2.28-31). The prophecy of Joel was not completely fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. For on that day there were no “wonders in the heaven and in the earth: blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke”; nor was “the sun . . . turned into darkness, and the moon into blood” (Joel 2.30-31). All of these five wonders will be fulfilled around and in the time of the Great Tribulation: blood (first trumpet), fire (first and second trumpets), smoke (fifth trumpet), sun and moon (sixth seal). Pentecost is only a miniature, a foretaste. Peter does not say: “It is fulfilled”; he merely says that “this is that” (Acts 2.16). As a matter of fact, the Holy Spirit is going to do greater work during the time of the Great Tribulation. If there will not be the Holy Spirit present, how can the saints ever endure during the Great Tribulation?
"Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition" (2 Thess. 2.3).
2 Thessalonians 2.1-9. Please read this passage very carefully. Verse 1 gives the topic of this passage - namely, the coming of Christ and rapture. Since the rapture spoken of here is a being gathered in the air to meet the Lord, there is already a hint as to its being after tribulation. In verse 2, the word “spirit” signifies another spirit, not the Holy Spirit; the term “word” means rumor; “us” refers to Paul, Silvanus and Timothy; and “the day of the Lord” is the day of the coming of Christ and rapture. In those days there were people who deluded the Thessalonian believers by saying that the day of the Lord had already come and that they had been left behind. Yet verse 3 shows that this day will not arrive until after the following two signs: (1) that before rapture, there will appear the man of sin, the son of perdition, who is the Antichrist; and (2) that there will first come the falling away, which is apostasy. When will the man of sin be revealed? It will naturally be at the Great Tribulation, So that rapture will be after this Tribulation. At least part of the church must go through the Great Tribulation.
The difference between Dave Hunt and myself is that I won't teach incorrectly regarding the rapture nor will I charge you money, whereas Dave Hunt teaches falsely and he charges you money for it too. This is a prophecy: Dave Hunt will never repent of the false teaching of pretribulation rapture onlyism.
What are the negative consequences? Well, when Dave enters the Tribulation, and he observes all those saints (perhaps about 5 million who are alive or more if the martyred from the past 20 centuries are included), he will accuse them, because he denied the need to be ready for the first rapture as Paul sought. What then? He will accuse those brethren day and night (Rev. 12.10). Who can say if he will refuse the mark of the beast or not since he does not even recognize he is in the Tribulation when it is happening because presumed he would be raptured whether he was ready to be received or not. The Left Behind series is very dangerous. To be rapture ready is not to be saved only, but to fulfill the condition of Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36, Matt. 24.42 which of course not all Christians do. Those who are saved but were not ready will understand why they had to go through the time of testing.
Read the Partial Rapture Proof (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Partial_rapture.htm).
Since Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36 and Matt. 24.42 are conditional statements for first rapture according to readiness, then not all the church will be raptured before the Tribulation.
Furthermore, your number is wrong so it is misleading. If the savings ratio is about 1 in 200 souls, then 7 billion people divided by 200 = 35,000,000 saved. If only 1/7th (as represented by the Philadelphia church of seven churches in Rev. 2 & 3) of the living saints are raptured before the Tribulation for being watchful, prayerful and keeping the word of His patience, that is 5 million, which leaves only 30 million saints to enter the Tribulation.
Though of course believers will speak up against the Antichrist, the Antichrist will be so convincing, whatever Christians have to say will fall mostly on deaf ears. Remember, the believers that pass through the Tribulation are the ones who were not ready to be received at first rapture. So all the vocal overcomer believers would have already been raptured, leaving a lot of Christians who would not speak up and protecting their own hide.
Would God leave only newborn babes in Christ to be martyred by the Antichrist in the Tribulation, or would they be comforted in their more experienced brethren being martyred also? Believers who were not ready to be received at the first rapture to pass through the Tribulation still have the indwelling Holy Spirit which cannot be taken out of the way.
We will not be left at the tender mercies of the Antichrist to wipe us all out in the Tribulation. There will only be a handful of people to be raptured at the end of the Tribulation.
What percentage of those 30 million believers will not be killed who can say? 1 Thess. 4.15-17 says there are those who are "alive" and "left" which is redundant if it means those who are alive are left. Rather, those who are left are the remains of those who were not raptured at the first rapture.
Some argue that according to I Thessalonians 4.15, the living “shall in no wise precede them who are fallen asleep” -The dead are resurrected at the seventh trumpet; and so timewise, rapture occurs after the Tribulation. Now if there is a first rapture, it will have to take place before the resurrection of the dead. But since this verse distinctly says “shall in no wise,” how then can rapture take place twice? Let me say in reply that it is most precious and significant to find in both verse 15 and verse 17 the qualifying clauses “we that are alive, that are left” - Now to be alive is obviously to be left on earth; why, then, is there this apparent unnecessary repetition? Because it implies that there are people who though alive yet have already gone ahead (that is, raptured) and therefore are no longer left on earth. Would Paul enlist himself among this class of people who are alive and are left? Not at all. He uses the word “we” only because he is speaking at that moment of writing, and the proof of this is that since Paul no longer lives today, he cannot be numbered among those who are left on earth. Our summary conclusion to all this is that the third school of interpretation seems to be the correct one - that is to say, that one group of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation while another group of believers will go through the Tribulation and be raptured afterwards.
The Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way as stated in 2 Thess. 2. There is no other explanation for that.
Before the Great Tribulation, the Holy Spirit returns to heaven. Since the church is with the Holy Spirit, it may be assumed that the whole church is raptured before the Great Tribulation. The basis for this assumption is 2 Thessalonians 2.6-7 where the phrase “one that restraineth” is made to refer to the Holy Spirit. Yet “one that restraineth” cannot be the Holy Spirit, for the subsequent clause - “until he be taken out of the way”- is not the proper terminology to be used in speaking about the Holy Spirit. The Third Person of the Trinity has many different names, such as the Spirit, the Spirit of glory, the Spirit of revelation, etc; and the word “Spirit” is usually present - and even though in one instance the word “Comforter” is used alone, yet from the next clause which follows (“even the Spirit of truth”) it is evident that this has clear reference to the Holy Spirit (John 14.16-17). Never do the Scriptures say the Holy Spirit is “he that restrains”; moreover, how can the Holy Spirit be said to “be taken out of the way”? Furthermore, where does the Bible announce that the Holy Spirit is absent during the Great Tribulation? And how can there be the so-called believers of the Great Tribulation if the Holy Spirit is not present? For no one is saved without the Holy Spirit, He who is born of the Spirit is spirit. Moreover, this matter of the Holy Spirit’s presence during the Great Tribulation is clearly shown in Revelation 5: “and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth” (v.6). The time of the Great Tribulation is the time of the latter rain (see Acts 2.15-21, Joel 2.28-31). The prophecy of Joel was not completely fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. For on that day there were no “wonders in the heaven and in the earth: blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke”; nor was “the sun . . . turned into darkness, and the moon into blood” (Joel 2.30-31). All of these five wonders will be fulfilled around and in the time of the Great Tribulation: blood (first trumpet), fire (first and second trumpets), smoke (fifth trumpet), sun and moon (sixth seal). Pentecost is only a miniature, a foretaste. Peter does not say: “It is fulfilled”; he merely says that “this is that” (Acts 2.16). As a matter of fact, the Holy Spirit is going to do greater work during the time of the Great Tribulation. If there will not be the Holy Spirit present, how can the saints ever endure during the Great Tribulation?
"Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition" (2 Thess. 2.3).
2 Thessalonians 2.1-9. Please read this passage very carefully. Verse 1 gives the topic of this passage - namely, the coming of Christ and rapture. Since the rapture spoken of here is a being gathered in the air to meet the Lord, there is already a hint as to its being after tribulation. In verse 2, the word “spirit” signifies another spirit, not the Holy Spirit; the term “word” means rumor; “us” refers to Paul, Silvanus and Timothy; and “the day of the Lord” is the day of the coming of Christ and rapture. In those days there were people who deluded the Thessalonian believers by saying that the day of the Lord had already come and that they had been left behind. Yet verse 3 shows that this day will not arrive until after the following two signs: (1) that before rapture, there will appear the man of sin, the son of perdition, who is the Antichrist; and (2) that there will first come the falling away, which is apostasy. When will the man of sin be revealed? It will naturally be at the Great Tribulation, So that rapture will be after this Tribulation. At least part of the church must go through the Great Tribulation.
The difference between Dave Hunt and myself is that I won't teach incorrectly regarding the rapture nor will I charge you money, whereas Dave Hunt teaches falsely and he charges you money for it too. This is a prophecy: Dave Hunt will never repent of the false teaching of pretribulation rapture onlyism.
What are the negative consequences? Well, when Dave enters the Tribulation, and he observes all those saints (perhaps about 5 million who are alive or more if the martyred from the past 20 centuries are included), he will accuse them, because he denied the need to be ready for the first rapture as Paul sought. What then? He will accuse those brethren day and night (Rev. 12.10). Who can say if he will refuse the mark of the beast or not since he does not even recognize he is in the Tribulation when it is happening because presumed he would be raptured whether he was ready to be received or not. The Left Behind series is very dangerous. To be rapture ready is not to be saved only, but to fulfill the condition of Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36, Matt. 24.42 which of course not all Christians do. Those who are saved but were not ready will understand why they had to go through the time of testing.
Read the Partial Rapture Proof (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Partial_rapture.htm).