Churchwork
09-05-2007, 08:57 PM
http://cityofdavidoutreach.org/index_alt.html
I have researched the scripture
Rev. 5:9 -- They sang a new song to the Lamb, "Thou ...has redeemed us to God by thy blood..." Whose blood? Acts 20:28 -- The church of God was purchased by His (God's) own blood. I John 3:16 -- "Hereby perceive we the love of God, because He [God] laid down His life for us ..."
Several say us, men people.
It would be interesting if I would be able to read the Greek.
If you believe in separate rapture, then you don't claim the church is rapture before Rev. 7; otherwise, call yourself a pretribulation rapture believer and not a separate rapture believer.
How do you resolve Rev. 5.8 "four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" when it says the elders having the prayers of the saints, if you think the elders are the church? I don't know how to do that.
Furthermore, how can the saints carry the prayer of the saints? To carry prayers to God as is shown in 5.8 is not the action of the church. Even though the church is commanded in the Scriptures to pray for others, God has not asked her to bring others’ prayers to Him. The church does not have this power.
Many commentators agree that the angel spoken of in 8.3-4 refers to the Lord. The task of carrying prayers to God is done by angels. Thus, bringing prayers of the saints to God as mentioned in 5.8 must be a task done by the angels.
Rev. 5:9 -- They sang a new song to the Lamb, "Thou ...has redeemed THEM to God by thy blood..." Angels do not experience the blood, for they have not sinned. RSV reads "ransom men" not "us", ESV reads "ransomed people" not "us", NIV reads "purchased men" not "us", NLT reads "ransomed people" not "us"; so we read in 5.10 the angels referring to "them" in ASV, ESV, RSV, NLT and Darby. You need to reconcile 5.9 with 5.10. While the church admits Jesus laid down His life for us, "us" is wrongly used on 5.9 and 5.10 using the KJV. That is why it is a big problem being a KJV onlyist. Instead use the open Bible. You don't even need to know the Greek to reason it out and logically discern this.
If you are still not convinced the 24 elders are the 24 archangels, here are some more reasons...
4.4 "THE TWENTY-FOUR ELDERS" (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Revelation_4.htm)
The common interpretation of the 24 elders as given by most commentators is that they point to the entire glorious church. But do these commentators have sufficient proof for offering this interpretation? Recently some of them have quoted 4.4, saying that these elders have thrones and therefore they reign as kings; they also point out that in 5.8 these elders are shown as having harps and golden bowls full of incense, and hence they are priests. And does not 1 Peter 2.9 state that believers are "a royal priesthood"? Since these 24 elders are both kings and priests, surely, they conclude, these elders represent the glorious church.
According to this interpretation, therefore, the entire church must be raptured together and thus it does not go through the tribulation. But how, then, will 3.10 be explained? Furthermore, there are ten other reasons why the 24 elders do not represent one glorious church.
(1) The name of elder is not the name of the church. If the elders here point to the church, it will be almost like saying that the entire church is made up of elders. According to historical fact, God first chooses the angels (Is. 14.12; Ez. 28.11-19), then the Jews (Gen. 12.1-3), and thirdly the church (for it is formed in the time of Acts 2). Not only the church cannot be reckoned as elders, even the Jews are not to be considered as elders (the election mentioned in Ephesians 1.4 refers to the eternal purpose of God, and hence is quite different from the elect angels as mentioned in 1 Timothy 5.21).
(2) The number of the elders is not the number of the church. The church’s number in the Scriptures is seven or multiples of seven, but 24 is not such a multiple.
(3) The church cannot have the throne and the crown before the Lord Jesus has His. The one who sits on the throne as seen in 4.2 is God the Father (the Lamb is standing, according to 5.6). The 24 elders also sit on thrones, and they all wear crowns of gold as described in 4.4. If they represent the church, how can it be that the church sits while the Lamb stands? According to this interpretation, in 5.6 the church is already crowned. Yet please note that the Lord Jesus will not be King until the time of chapter 20 is reached! How can the church receive glory in advance of the Lord? Moreover, after 19.4 there is no more trace of the 24 elders. If these elders do indeed represent the entire church, what has happened to the glorious church thereafter?
(4) The white garments which the elders wear are not said to be cleansed by the precious blood; however, in another place (7.14) the white garments are said to have been washed and made white in the blood of the Lamb. The white garments here show that the elders are without sin.
(5) The song these elders sing is not that of redemption since the song in 4.11 tells of the creation of God. They thus know only God’s creation; they have no personal knowledge of God’s redemption. Though they do sing a new song as mentioned in 5.9-10, this is because the Lord has redeemed "them"—not these elders, but men of every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
(6) All the phenomena in chapter 4 stand for the state of the universe. Besides the throne and the seven Spirits, there are the four living creatures and the 24 elders; none else is mentioned. This indicates that these elders are the elders of the universe. Can we possibly say that the church is the eldest in the universe?
(7) To carry prayers to God as is shown in 5.8 is not the action of the church. Even though the church is commanded in the Scriptures to pray for others, God has not asked her to bring others’ prayers to Him. The church does not have this power. Many commentators agree that the angel spoken of in 8.3-4 refers to the Lord. Whether or not it is the Lord, it can at least be said that the task of carrying prayers to God is done by angels. Thus, bringing prayers of the saints to God as mentioned in 5.8 must be a task done by the angels.
(8) Never once do the 24 elders identify themselves as the church. The "them" in 5.10 is a reference to the church by these elders. If the "them" were indeed an expression of self-identification, the elders should have instead said "us". What the elders do say clearly distinguishes them from the church. The 24 elders cannot represent the entire church. There are three classes of people in view in 7.13-17, namely: (1) elders, (2) John, and (3) those arrayed in white robes. Should the 24 elders be an allusion to part of the church, it would still make some sense for the elders to ask John, "Who are they, and whence came they [those in white robes]?" But if the 24 elders mean the entire church, it would be absurd for the entire church to ask concerning part of the church.
(9) John addresses one of the elders as "my lord" (7.13-17), thus showing the superior position of the elder over John. Otherwise how could the elder permit John to call him "my lord"? (cf. 22.8-9)
(10) The demeanor of the 24 elders before God is most peculiar. They have never been hungry and thirsty like the church nor have they ever shed any tears. They are not afraid of God, neither do they possess any sense of sin. They are strangers to the experience of being redeemed. All these points prove that they are not the redeemed church.
Who, then, are these elders? Let us assume that they are the kings and priests among the angels, that they are the elders of the universe (that is to say, they rule over the angels and the universe in God’s service). The evidences for such a conclusion are as follows.
(1) Since they sit on thrones and wear crowns of gold, they must be kings.
(2) They wear white garments which are the garments of the priests (see Ex. 28; Lev. 6.10, 16.4). They have harps, sing songs, and hold golden bowls of incense—all these are evidences of their priesthood.
(3) The reason they are the priests among the angels is because they are the elders of the universe. In chapters 4 and 5 God is God, the Lord is the Lamb, the Holy Spirit is the seven Spirits, the four living creatures represent the animate creation, and the 24 elders are the elders of the universe since they are the oldest among created things.
(4) Besides the angels, who are entitled to sit on thrones and wear golden crowns ahead of the Lord Jesus? God had originally appointed angels to govern the universe. But one of the archangels fell and turned himself into Satan, there thus coming into existence the satanic kingdom. As to those angels who had not followed Satan in rebellion, God still assigns them the rule over the universe. Now just as Michael is the chief prince over the nation of Israel (Dan. 10.13), even so, all of us who are redeemed have our guardian angels (Acts 12.15; Matt. 18.10; Heb. 1.14). The 24 elders sit while the seven angels who blow the trumpets stand before God (8.2). They are now in charge of the universe. When they see people getting saved they are not jealous at all; rather, they praise God for it. They will govern the universe until the kingdom shall come; and then they will resign their appointments and there will be the transfer of the government of the universe to men (Rev. 11.16-18; Heb. 2.5-8). This is why there is no mentioning of the 24 elders after 19.4.
(5) The number of the 24 elders is the number of the priesthood. At the time of David the priesthood was divided into 24 courses (1 Chron. 24.7-18). The duty of the priesthood is to bring the prayers of the saints to God. The harps are for singing, and the golden bowls are for prayers.
I have researched the scripture
Rev. 5:9 -- They sang a new song to the Lamb, "Thou ...has redeemed us to God by thy blood..." Whose blood? Acts 20:28 -- The church of God was purchased by His (God's) own blood. I John 3:16 -- "Hereby perceive we the love of God, because He [God] laid down His life for us ..."
Several say us, men people.
It would be interesting if I would be able to read the Greek.
If you believe in separate rapture, then you don't claim the church is rapture before Rev. 7; otherwise, call yourself a pretribulation rapture believer and not a separate rapture believer.
How do you resolve Rev. 5.8 "four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" when it says the elders having the prayers of the saints, if you think the elders are the church? I don't know how to do that.
Furthermore, how can the saints carry the prayer of the saints? To carry prayers to God as is shown in 5.8 is not the action of the church. Even though the church is commanded in the Scriptures to pray for others, God has not asked her to bring others’ prayers to Him. The church does not have this power.
Many commentators agree that the angel spoken of in 8.3-4 refers to the Lord. The task of carrying prayers to God is done by angels. Thus, bringing prayers of the saints to God as mentioned in 5.8 must be a task done by the angels.
Rev. 5:9 -- They sang a new song to the Lamb, "Thou ...has redeemed THEM to God by thy blood..." Angels do not experience the blood, for they have not sinned. RSV reads "ransom men" not "us", ESV reads "ransomed people" not "us", NIV reads "purchased men" not "us", NLT reads "ransomed people" not "us"; so we read in 5.10 the angels referring to "them" in ASV, ESV, RSV, NLT and Darby. You need to reconcile 5.9 with 5.10. While the church admits Jesus laid down His life for us, "us" is wrongly used on 5.9 and 5.10 using the KJV. That is why it is a big problem being a KJV onlyist. Instead use the open Bible. You don't even need to know the Greek to reason it out and logically discern this.
If you are still not convinced the 24 elders are the 24 archangels, here are some more reasons...
4.4 "THE TWENTY-FOUR ELDERS" (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Revelation_4.htm)
The common interpretation of the 24 elders as given by most commentators is that they point to the entire glorious church. But do these commentators have sufficient proof for offering this interpretation? Recently some of them have quoted 4.4, saying that these elders have thrones and therefore they reign as kings; they also point out that in 5.8 these elders are shown as having harps and golden bowls full of incense, and hence they are priests. And does not 1 Peter 2.9 state that believers are "a royal priesthood"? Since these 24 elders are both kings and priests, surely, they conclude, these elders represent the glorious church.
According to this interpretation, therefore, the entire church must be raptured together and thus it does not go through the tribulation. But how, then, will 3.10 be explained? Furthermore, there are ten other reasons why the 24 elders do not represent one glorious church.
(1) The name of elder is not the name of the church. If the elders here point to the church, it will be almost like saying that the entire church is made up of elders. According to historical fact, God first chooses the angels (Is. 14.12; Ez. 28.11-19), then the Jews (Gen. 12.1-3), and thirdly the church (for it is formed in the time of Acts 2). Not only the church cannot be reckoned as elders, even the Jews are not to be considered as elders (the election mentioned in Ephesians 1.4 refers to the eternal purpose of God, and hence is quite different from the elect angels as mentioned in 1 Timothy 5.21).
(2) The number of the elders is not the number of the church. The church’s number in the Scriptures is seven or multiples of seven, but 24 is not such a multiple.
(3) The church cannot have the throne and the crown before the Lord Jesus has His. The one who sits on the throne as seen in 4.2 is God the Father (the Lamb is standing, according to 5.6). The 24 elders also sit on thrones, and they all wear crowns of gold as described in 4.4. If they represent the church, how can it be that the church sits while the Lamb stands? According to this interpretation, in 5.6 the church is already crowned. Yet please note that the Lord Jesus will not be King until the time of chapter 20 is reached! How can the church receive glory in advance of the Lord? Moreover, after 19.4 there is no more trace of the 24 elders. If these elders do indeed represent the entire church, what has happened to the glorious church thereafter?
(4) The white garments which the elders wear are not said to be cleansed by the precious blood; however, in another place (7.14) the white garments are said to have been washed and made white in the blood of the Lamb. The white garments here show that the elders are without sin.
(5) The song these elders sing is not that of redemption since the song in 4.11 tells of the creation of God. They thus know only God’s creation; they have no personal knowledge of God’s redemption. Though they do sing a new song as mentioned in 5.9-10, this is because the Lord has redeemed "them"—not these elders, but men of every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
(6) All the phenomena in chapter 4 stand for the state of the universe. Besides the throne and the seven Spirits, there are the four living creatures and the 24 elders; none else is mentioned. This indicates that these elders are the elders of the universe. Can we possibly say that the church is the eldest in the universe?
(7) To carry prayers to God as is shown in 5.8 is not the action of the church. Even though the church is commanded in the Scriptures to pray for others, God has not asked her to bring others’ prayers to Him. The church does not have this power. Many commentators agree that the angel spoken of in 8.3-4 refers to the Lord. Whether or not it is the Lord, it can at least be said that the task of carrying prayers to God is done by angels. Thus, bringing prayers of the saints to God as mentioned in 5.8 must be a task done by the angels.
(8) Never once do the 24 elders identify themselves as the church. The "them" in 5.10 is a reference to the church by these elders. If the "them" were indeed an expression of self-identification, the elders should have instead said "us". What the elders do say clearly distinguishes them from the church. The 24 elders cannot represent the entire church. There are three classes of people in view in 7.13-17, namely: (1) elders, (2) John, and (3) those arrayed in white robes. Should the 24 elders be an allusion to part of the church, it would still make some sense for the elders to ask John, "Who are they, and whence came they [those in white robes]?" But if the 24 elders mean the entire church, it would be absurd for the entire church to ask concerning part of the church.
(9) John addresses one of the elders as "my lord" (7.13-17), thus showing the superior position of the elder over John. Otherwise how could the elder permit John to call him "my lord"? (cf. 22.8-9)
(10) The demeanor of the 24 elders before God is most peculiar. They have never been hungry and thirsty like the church nor have they ever shed any tears. They are not afraid of God, neither do they possess any sense of sin. They are strangers to the experience of being redeemed. All these points prove that they are not the redeemed church.
Who, then, are these elders? Let us assume that they are the kings and priests among the angels, that they are the elders of the universe (that is to say, they rule over the angels and the universe in God’s service). The evidences for such a conclusion are as follows.
(1) Since they sit on thrones and wear crowns of gold, they must be kings.
(2) They wear white garments which are the garments of the priests (see Ex. 28; Lev. 6.10, 16.4). They have harps, sing songs, and hold golden bowls of incense—all these are evidences of their priesthood.
(3) The reason they are the priests among the angels is because they are the elders of the universe. In chapters 4 and 5 God is God, the Lord is the Lamb, the Holy Spirit is the seven Spirits, the four living creatures represent the animate creation, and the 24 elders are the elders of the universe since they are the oldest among created things.
(4) Besides the angels, who are entitled to sit on thrones and wear golden crowns ahead of the Lord Jesus? God had originally appointed angels to govern the universe. But one of the archangels fell and turned himself into Satan, there thus coming into existence the satanic kingdom. As to those angels who had not followed Satan in rebellion, God still assigns them the rule over the universe. Now just as Michael is the chief prince over the nation of Israel (Dan. 10.13), even so, all of us who are redeemed have our guardian angels (Acts 12.15; Matt. 18.10; Heb. 1.14). The 24 elders sit while the seven angels who blow the trumpets stand before God (8.2). They are now in charge of the universe. When they see people getting saved they are not jealous at all; rather, they praise God for it. They will govern the universe until the kingdom shall come; and then they will resign their appointments and there will be the transfer of the government of the universe to men (Rev. 11.16-18; Heb. 2.5-8). This is why there is no mentioning of the 24 elders after 19.4.
(5) The number of the 24 elders is the number of the priesthood. At the time of David the priesthood was divided into 24 courses (1 Chron. 24.7-18). The duty of the priesthood is to bring the prayers of the saints to God. The harps are for singing, and the golden bowls are for prayers.